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Question on raw and kibble together

MyBirdIsEvil
November 20th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Sorry if this has already been asked, I'm looking for a quick response 'cause I just suddenly decided today I might start feeding one of my dogs raw since he seems to like it so much, and no stomach upset (:fingerscr yet anyway)

I'm kind of scared to just suddenly switch to raw, since because it's not something I really considered much before I haven't read extensively about it.

My dog Royce has never really done well on kibble, even though we switched to TO he hasn't really started putting on muscle like I hoped. He has hip dysplasia so I hate to see him not in perfect condition, since it puts more strain on his joints. He's also still constipated which I hoped would get better by switching to TO but apparently not.

Well today we were cutting up venison, I saved EVERY single part even the ones I wasn't sure about because I refuse to waste anything and I figured most of it is something the dogs could benefit from.
Well I gave Walnut and Royce both a rib bone, which they chewed well and ate, and a shank bone which they ate the meat off of, but I made sure they didn't eat the bone because I don't want them to become constipated.
Well Walnut, who didn't even eat much meat threw up 4 times (luckily she stopped pretty quick and has been fine since), so she apparently doesn't take well to raw meat.
Royce LOVED the meat, we even gave him some more and he ate it all up (something he NEVER does with kibble), and he seems fine. He even kept looking for more but we limited it just in case his stomach gets upset.

So anyway, my question - how ok is it to feed kibble and raw together? TO says their food is ok to feed with raw, and I'm scared if I just switch straight to raw, not knowing much about it, that I'll feed too much bone or not enough bone and cause problems, since I'm not sure what the ratio should be.

Oh yeah, I'm also curious as to whether most butchers can grind bones. There were several bones that didn't really look safe for chewing (really sharp parts), and I was wondering if they could be ground up and added to meat.

Sorry if I seem extremely ignorant on this subject. :o
Raw just isn't something I've studied or read a lot about, so I'm fairly lost. I just want Royce to have the best diet he can and currently kibble isn't doing it. I would switch Walnut, but yeah, the throwing up kind of scared me so I'll stick with kibble at this point for her since she does well on it so far.

technodoll
November 20th, 2006, 10:18 PM
well first... most raw feeders say to deep-freeze venison for a few days to kill any parasites in the meat (wild meat, in general, is supposed to follow this guideline) so if you want to continue feeding raw wild game, you should do this first "just in case" :)

second, it's perfectly ok to feed raw, boneless meat with kibble (same meal) although you might need to add a digestive enzyme since not all dogs have an easy time digesting the two together. if you want to feed kibble for one meal, and then raw for the 2nd meal, then it's ok to feed raw meat with bones :thumbs up

some butchers will grind up soft bones (poultry), some won't... as a general rule though, it's the thick weight-bearing bones that aren't consumable and are to be used as recreational bones only (pork, goat, cow, deer, etc). a lab-sized dog can eat a whole small chicken in one meal, no problem, from head to tail :D

Note: Venison is a rich meat, which may explain Walnut's vomiting. If you want to try again, try a 24-hour fast first to completely empty the GI tract out, then start with an easy protein such as skinless chicken legs, or just raw chicken. you might be pleasantly surprised, just ask some of the raw-feeders here on their "conversion" experiences :)

if you have specific questions that aren't answered in any posts in this sub-forum, fire away! we love to help! :dog:

and CONGRATULATIONS for wanting to switch your boy(s) to the diet that's best for them... you will probably see improved muscle tone and energy in your dysplastic boy, and less joint pain too!

MyBirdIsEvil
November 20th, 2006, 10:45 PM
well first... most raw feeders say to deep-freeze venison for a few days to kill any parasites in the meat (wild meat, in general, is supposed to follow this guideline) so if you want to continue feeding raw wild game, you should do this first "just in case"

:o Oops, I'll remember that. Everyone I've known feeds meat and stuff directly off the animal with no problems, so I had no idea. The rest of the meat and bones (except for the stuff to be cooked) is frozen right now so that shouldn't be a problem.

second, it's perfectly ok to feed raw, boneless meat with kibble (same meal) although you might need to add a digestive enzyme since not all dogs have an easy time digesting the two together. if you want to feed kibble for one meal, and then raw for the 2nd meal, then it's ok to feed raw meat with bones

That's good to know. We fed Royce the bones and meat this morning, then his kibble for dinner and he seems just great at the moment.

Note: Venison is a rich meat, which may explain Walnut's vomiting. If you want to try again, try a 24-hour fast first to completely empty the GI tract out, then start with an easy protein such as skinless chicken legs, or just raw chicken. you might be pleasantly surprised, just ask some of the raw-feeders here on their "conversion" experiences

:sad: That's what's weird, the portion she ate didn't even contain much meat. The rib bone just had the tiny amount of meat that most ribs have, and the shank had just about all the meat cut off of it, I just gave it to her to chew mostly. On the up side, she didn't throw up any large pieces of bone, it all looked well digested, so I don't know.

some butchers will grind up soft bones (poultry), some won't... as a general rule though, it's the thick weight-bearing bones that aren't consumable and are to be used as recreational bones only (pork, goat, cow, deer, etc). a lab-sized dog can eat a whole small chicken in one meal, no problem, from head to tail

Hmmm, I was thinking neck bone and stuff, but I guess that's not grindable. The rib bones are already pretty soft and and that's the only one I allowed them to actually eat. They're not like beef rib bones, they're pretty skinny and bendable. They both chewed it really well so I think it's ok.

What abone the meat/bone ratio, how much bone should I let him eat? I'm deathly afraid I'll feed too much bone (even though I just gave one small rib) and he'll get really constipated, or I'll feed not enough bone. Or are bones even necessary for anything besides chewing? I heard meat contains most of the necessary nutrients and very little bone if any at all is needed. Like I said though, my raw knowledge is almost nonexistant.

MyBirdIsEvil
November 20th, 2006, 10:54 PM
Oh yeah, I wondered about the amount of fat too.

Should I be trimming all the fat off of the meat, leaving some on, or not trimming it at all?

Venison is really lean but it has a layer of fat on the outside of most cuts, how do I know if I'm giving too much/little fat, or does it matter?

MyBirdIsEvil
November 20th, 2006, 10:59 PM
:) Thank you for taking the time to respond, btw.
I'm reading several things at once and a bit distracted/tired so I may have seemed a bit impolite.:o

erykah1310
November 20th, 2006, 11:59 PM
My dog Royce has never really done well on kibble, even though we switched to TO he hasn't really started putting on muscle like I hoped. He has hip dysplasia so I hate to see him not in perfect condition, since it puts more strain on his joints. He's also still constipated which I hoped would get better by switching to TO but apparently not.

.

I started the raw diet and now with Puppy ( also has hip dysplasia as well as arthritis) he doesnt need his glucosamine/msm tablets anymore. I have completely stopped giving it to him and he is doing so much better with the natural glucosamine he gets from his new diet. He actually gimpy runs now :eek: :D I love it and so does he ( I think)

I still give him the ester-C with his raw though.

MyBirdIsEvil
November 21st, 2006, 12:36 AM
I started the raw diet and now with Puppy ( also has hip dysplasia as well as arthritis) he doesnt need his glucosamine/msm tablets anymore. I have completely stopped giving it to him and he is doing so much better with the natural glucosamine he gets from his new diet. He actually gimpy runs now :eek: :D I love it and so does he ( I think)

I still give him the ester-C with his raw though.


How long was he on the diet before you started noticing a difference?

Royce isn't even a year old, and he doesn't seem to be in any pain yet, but his hip dysplasia is definately noticeable. At 4 months when we got him his x-rays showed pretty severe hip malformation which is why I want to get his body in good condition as soon as possible.
This is the first time he's ever shown much interest in any type of food much less actually loved it, and I noticed he wasn't belching afterward like right after he eats his kibble. The belching worries me because it means his kibble is producing gas, which is bad since being a deep chested dog he's prone to bloat.

erykah1310
November 21st, 2006, 10:03 AM
I noticed a difference in approx 3 weeks. (Thats when I removed the extra tablets) and he hasnt showed that he needs them yet.
How sad for Royce such a young life and already leg isses. :sad:

There is one thing I cant get used to with the raw and thats when they throw it up andgive it another shot :sick: :yuck: That still wrenches my stomach when it happens. So now I just leave the room while they are eating, just in case. At first I would watch them like a hawk incase they choked but hasnt happened yet. And I doubt it will. They know what they are doing.

technodoll
November 21st, 2006, 10:30 AM
What abone the meat/bone ratio, how much bone should I let him eat?

the general consensus is as follows, for a prey-model diet (no veggies or VERY little):

60% meat
10-15% organ meats
15-20% bone
the rest = others such as eggs, whole fish, pulped veggies if you like, etc

You NEED to add bone to the diet to balance the phosphorus/calcium ratio, an all-meat diet is a disaster waiting to happen. As for the fat, it really depends on what your dog can tolerate... some dogs can only eat a little before they get the runs, others can eat a ton and always be ok :D however i would try to keep it lean and trim off the big white visible fats, but leave the naturally-occuring "marbled" fat in meats intact, as well as most of the poultry skin that is not loose and hanging.

Erykah, neither of my dogs has EVER vomited a raw meal... the only upchucking i've seen (and very rarely) is an undigested bone fragment a few days after being swallowed, it's the body's way of getting rid of something that won't go down i guess. Every dog is different eh? But yeah... some dogs will eat too fast, too big pieces, and then it comes up again to be re-eaten slowly. Have you tried feeding bigger, more awkward pieces, or serve semi-frozen to slow them down? it might help! :)

erykah1310
November 21st, 2006, 10:41 AM
They eat whole things, i dont cube them up or anything, and its just really Kita who I think gets so excited that she tries to wolf it down... Not that its a full out vomit but she regularly " hacks" peices up, and then goes to town again. :shrug: Im not too worried about it though, i really think that she just gets way to happy and excited to eat when she sees im not cramming kibble down her throat. :D

technodoll
November 21st, 2006, 11:06 AM
awee.... you go, kita-girl! :D

but isn't it just beautiful to see a dog eating what they're supposed to eat? and loving it? and then you see the difference in their condition, energy, mood, health, etc? :cloud9:

Scott_B
November 21st, 2006, 11:26 AM
Rosco does that. He'll give something a good crunch crunch, will get it to a size he likes then try and swallow it. If its still to big, he'll bring it back up and give it a few more chomps to where he has it the size that goes down smooth. I agree with the gagging sound though. I've actually gagged myself a few times when hes done it. lol But I'm getting used to it. I don't leave him though. I'll go in the next room but i can still watch/listen to him. Just in the off case he does choke, I want to be there, not walk in 2min too late.

MyBirdIsEvil
November 21st, 2006, 11:38 AM
the general consensus is as follows, for a prey-model diet (no veggies or VERY little):

60% meat
10-15% organ meats
15-20% bone
the rest = others such as eggs, whole fish, pulped veggies if you like, etc

Is there a way to figure out exact amounts?
Should I be weighing the bones and meat or just eyeing it?

Is it also ok to feed fruits as a treat? Royce and Walnut both love fruit, and I don't mash it up but it's usually soft fruits like ripe pears or melon anyway. They're not really into veggies, so I usually don't feed it, unless I have some cooked carrots or something leftover which they like 'cause it's sweet.

MyBirdIsEvil
November 21st, 2006, 11:41 AM
Oh, and as an update, Royce still hasn't had any stomach upset or anything, so I guess raw agrees with him. :)
I fed him his normal kibble this morning, but I'm going to give him raw tonight after the meat thaws in the fridge a bit.

technodoll
November 21st, 2006, 11:51 AM
Is there a way to figure out exact amounts?
Should I be weighing the bones and meat or just eyeing it?

Is it also ok to feed fruits as a treat? Royce and Walnut both love fruit, and I don't mash it up but it's usually soft fruits like ripe pears or melon anyway. They're not really into veggies, so I usually don't feed it, unless I have some cooked carrots or something leftover which they like 'cause it's sweet.


in the beginning, i would suggest weighing what you feed as looks can be deceiving... if you feed a whole chicken though, no need to weigh anything as Mother Nature has already proportioned everything just right ;) try to feed hunks of meat with some bone hidden in there somewhere, and not the opposite (lots of bone with a little bit of meat). You do need to know what your dog weighs and then a daily amount to feed would be anywhere between 1.5 to 3% of your dog's body weight, depending on their age, metabolism, activity level, etc (smaller dogs need more). I split feeding into two meals to make it easier.

of course you can feed some fruit as snacks! you can feed anything you like, the beauty if this way of feeding is "balance over time". meals do not need to be "perfect", you can skip bones some days and feed more other days, feed fish one day and then later during the week, give a whole deer's butt or a rabbit and let them go to town, LOL! Organ meats tent to give soft poops so better to feed only a little at a time, a few meals per week.

the more you feed raw and see your dog getting better and better, the more confidence you'll gain and things will get sooo easy. i promise :D

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 02:34 PM
I started the raw diet and now with Puppy ( also has hip dysplasia as well as arthritis) he doesnt need his glucosamine/msm tablets anymore. I have completely stopped giving it to him and he is doing so much better with the natural glucosamine he gets from his new diet. He actually gimpy runs now :eek: :D I love it and so does he ( I think)

I still give him the ester-C with his raw though.

Curious what you mean by the "natural glucosamine in his new diet"?

Scott_B
December 13th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Naturally occuring. Chicken feet for example are high in glucosamine.

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Naturally occuring. Chicken feet for example are high in glucosamine.


Really?I thought it was only in the exoskeleton of shellfish.Are you feeding a lot of chicken feet erykah?

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 03:30 PM
Glucosamine is a structural component of connective tissue, so any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine :pawprint:

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Glucosamine is a structural component of connective tissue, so any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine :pawprint:

Do you have a source for that?That is not my understanding.Perhaps you mean chondroitin?

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 03:54 PM
here are some:

http://www.ultrunr.com/glcosam.html

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Glucosaminecs.html

please note that while the commercial production of glucosamine for human consumption is derived from the exoskeleton of shellfish, it is still naturally occuring in bovine cartilage and THAT source is excellent for dogs, if fed raw :pawprint:

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 04:09 PM
here are some:

http://www.ultrunr.com/glcosam.html

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Glucosaminecs.html

please note that while the commercial production of glucosamine for human consumption is derived from the exoskeleton of shellfish, it is still naturally occuring in bovine cartilage and THAT source is excellent for dogs, if fed raw :pawprint:

Exactly,your links state that there is no natural food source for glucosamine which is I asked about that.I was asking for a source on the part where I quoted you above,"so any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine".Sorry if I was not clear,that was what I was asking for a source on.

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 04:11 PM
And from your link the precautions and possible interactions are important imo,and generally not discussed ime

"Precautions

Because of the potential for side effects and interactions with medications, dietary supplements should be taken only under the supervision of a knowledgeable healthcare provider.

The majority of studies indicate that glucosamine is safe, nontoxic, and causes only minor side effects such as stomach upset, heartburn, indigestion, gas, bloating, and diarrhea. If these symptoms occur, glucosamine should be taken with food.

People with peptic ulcers should take glucosamine sulfate with food.

Glucosamine sulfate may contain high amounts of sodium or potassium, so individuals on a restricted diet or taking potassium-sparing diuretics should carefully check the label before taking glucosamine supplements.

People with diabetes should have their blood sugar checked regularly as glucosamine may cause insulin to work less effectively. Some glucosamine supplements are derived from shellfish, so individuals with shellfish allergies should check with a health care professional before taking these supplements.

People who are allergic to sulfur are usually allergic to sulfa drugs or sulfite-containing food additives. Sulfur is an essential nutrient that is naturally present in the body of all individuals. "Sulfur-sensitive" people can safely use glucosamine sulfate.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Possible Interactions

If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications, you should not use glucosamine or make any adjustments to your medications without first talking to your healthcare provider.

Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs)
Glucosamine may increase the anti-inflammatory activity of NSAIDs such as ibuprofen. This interaction may result in the need for lower doses of these medications"

meb999
December 13th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Dietary Sources

There are no food sources of glucosamine. Supplements are derived from either bovine cartilage or chitin, the hard outer shells of shrimp, lobsters, and crabs.



From what I understand there are no food sources for glucosamine in a human diet, because, well...we don't eat cartilage. But if you feed bovine cartilage to your dog...then it's the same thing that the human supplements are derived from

meb999
December 13th, 2006, 04:15 PM
then again...what the heck do I know :shrug: i'm only a kibble feeder :o

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 04:22 PM
I believe some people eat cartilage.What sources were you referring to?

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 06:58 PM
LL1, i don't have much time right now but feel free to do your own research... because you are looking for more information, and not trying to argue something just for the sake of arguing, right? ;)

http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Articles/bovine.htm

A Natural Source Of Glucosamine & Chondroitin Sulfate

Bovine Cartilage is a nutritional supplement that has a history dating back to the fifties. While much recent publicity has surrounded shark cartilage, bovine sourced cartilage from the tracheal rings of cattle is known to exhibit many similar attributes

http://www.alternativehealth-uk.com/bonesandjoints.htm#bovine1

Bovita represents a major breakthrough in the development of a 100% natural, Bovine Cartilage concentrate. It is a natural source of Glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) including Glucosamine & Chondroitin as part of an extremely complex & balanced overall structure. This in stark contrast to powdered Glucosamine/Chondroitin products currently marketed with contain up to 60% dextrose(sugar).

Prin
December 13th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I believe some people eat cartilage.What sources were you referring to?

My aunt does.. When she's done with a turkey leg all that is left is the bone. It's pretty gross.:sick: :D

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 09:49 PM
heyyyy... my bf does that too :yuck: when i'm done eating my chicken leg, i'll hand it over to him to crunch the ends off... ugh ugh ugh

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 10:13 PM
LL1, i don't have much time right now but feel free to do your own research... because you are looking for more information, and not trying to argue something just for the sake of arguing, right? ;)


Actually,that is not what I have been asking you for,I think I clarified that.

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 10:26 PM
ok i seem to be lost... what DID you ask for? :o

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Would it help if I quoted my two posts where I asked for it?

technodoll
December 13th, 2006, 10:50 PM
no, what would help is if you ask again in different words, because I didn't understand the first time.

LL1
December 13th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Glucosamine is a structural component of connective tissue, so any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine :pawprint:

Do you have a source for that?That is not my understanding.Perhaps you mean chondroitin?

Oh ok I will try this way.

You posted:

Originally Posted by technodoll
"Glucosamine is a structural component of connective tissue, so any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine "

My question rephrased:

Do you have a source,weblink or text etc,that says that "any raw whole meats on bone contain a good amount of naturally occuring glucosamine"?