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Update - blood with bowel movement

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 02:55 PM
I guess I should have clarified in the original post - we had an hour before the veterinarian appointment and I was hoping for some ideas to calm me while I waited....I knew it could be nothing at all or something very serious. I always bring him to the vet at the first small sign of something wrong. when I first saw a little red yesterday, I thought it was a tinge of red coloring from some "pup-a-roni" treats that my neighbor gives him every once in a while. I didn't think it was anything until this morning. I immediately made an appointment but had to wait a couple of hours. The vet and I knew it wasn't an emergency because it was such a minute amount of blood.

Anyway, it was just a bacterial infection. He had a shot, is on an anti-biotic and he's fine!

Thanks for the concern and sorry for the worry. I know I freak out when someone doesn't seem to be taking care of a health problem with their pets.

Maya
November 18th, 2006, 04:01 PM
You're a good dog mommy.:) Hope the antibiotics go well for him. Maybe some probiotics will help him avoid the problem from happening again, also good idea after antibiotics to re-colonize the beneficial bacteria.

Hunter's_owner
November 18th, 2006, 04:28 PM
That's great news:thumbs up Good to hear that it was nothing serious.

Thanks for the update

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 04:34 PM
You're a good dog mommy.:) Hope the antibiotics go well for him. Maybe some probiotics will help him avoid the problem from happening again, also good idea after antibiotics to re-colonize the beneficial bacteria.

Thanks for the support! I was horrified that my first post indicated that I was not taking care of the problem. It was my fault though. I should have been clearer.

And I wanted to ask more about the probiotics. What does that involve? Buddy is actually on a vegetarian diet (just because I am also vegetarian and choose that for him too) with a vitamin supplement for vegetarian dogs. (and I know that a vegetarian diet for dogs is controversial but I've already been down that road a million times)

Do you think that could have something to do with the bacterial infection? The vet didn't state a cause...said the source of bacteria could be anything but nothing for me to search for and try to get rid of. I'm assuming maybe from drinking water from outside or something like that (though I'm careful to keep him from doing that).

Tell me more about the probiotics. It sounds like a very healthy idea.

Thanks,
Becca

Maya
November 18th, 2006, 05:45 PM
This explains it probably better than I can:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotics

I was using something for myself at one point (can't remember the brand) it had a coating to ensure the bacteria gets all the way down to the intestinal tract, I mention this because some say it gets destroyed in the stomach and has no use. If that were true I don't think Dr's would tell people to eat yogurt for yeast infections though, but i'm not sure. Flora:http://www.florahealth.com/Flora/Home/canada/Products/TG8.asp might be a good one to try, i've found some of their other products to be high quality. I don't know how vegetarian you are but i'm pretty sure these don't have dairy. I'm basically vegetarian as in not as strict as i'd like but for the most part. I can't have dairy anyway and not big on eggs so I don't see why it couldn't be done with a dog.:shrug: If you are supplementing and he's healthy enough then why not?? People say you can't be vegan but lots of people are and do just fine. I'm sure it depends on lots of variables like the person the dog and the diet!! Good luck!

ps people jump to conclusions no worries.:)

[edit] And ya I just noticed your other question. I don't really know off hand what might cause an infection. A guess and this is just a guess is maybe to much fibre causing things to actually move slower? I have a feeling it was probably just an over growth of "bad" bacteria that is normally in there.

mafiaprincess
November 18th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Since dogs are carnivores, and even under the best circumstances wouldn't be able to thrive on a vegan diet.. it may have contributed to your dog's problem.

There was a link somewhere in the dog food forum probably around page 3 by now about vegan dog food.

Maya
November 18th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Since dogs are carnivores, and even under the best circumstances wouldn't be able to thrive on a vegan diet.. it may have contributed to your dog's problem.Her dog is vegetarian not vegan there's a big difference.

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 06:18 PM
Thanks so much! I will look into it more. I am actually a medical student and have some knowledge of the intestinal flora but am not sure what most people recommend to replace the healthy bacteria (just because I've never looked into it). Besides, I am only a first-year student! What do I know?

And Buddy and I are both Vegetarian but not vegan. I eat dairy and eggs - though not too often.

I actually posted on the dog food forums quite a while ago when I wanted to switch him to a vegetarian diet and they were extremely helpful...you guys always are.

I have gotten mixed responses from veterinarians about his diet but, those who opposed it, were always very old veterinarians who wouldn't support vegetarian diets for people or dogs....just an older mindset. As far as I know, Buddy has never had any problems that resulted from the diet, and neither have I. I think we are both quite healthy. But, just in case, I always ask a vet, no matter what the problem is, if it could be caused by his vegetarian diet...so far, so good. Like everyone here, I am super concerned and paranoid about his health, especially since I am solely responsible for it. That's a huge responsibility, as you all know.

Anyway, enough rambling. I am always happy to learn more about any doggie health issues and will definitely look into the pro-biotics (for both of us). It sounds like a good idea.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas and concerns!
Becca

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 06:35 PM
And I did check the vegan thread that you recommended, mafiaprincess. It's interesting that you would recommend a thread where you, for the most part, criticized people who feed their dogs vegetarian diets.

Thank you for your input but I'm not sure what makes you an expert to the point that you can call people "tooly" and whatever other names you used, simply because they choose not to feed their dogs meat.

Thank you for the input but dogs, like people, can get all essential nutrients without meat and with appropriate foods and supplements.

Still, I respect your right to eat and feed your dogs meat so how about respecting the rights of others not to.

And I appreciate your thoughts about inaccurate internet information. I completely agree! We have to educate ourselves and make wise decisions about the information that we trust.

Prin
November 18th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Becca, a lot of people agree about the veggie diets for dogs. Dogs aren't built like humans. Dogs are carnivores. Not obligate carnivores, but carnivores nonetheless.

Unless there is a problem with meat protein, there is no biological reason to have a dog on a veggie diet.

IMO, if people researched dog diets and dog nutrition as much as they researched human diets and nutrition for themselves, they would not feed veggie diets to their dogs.

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Yes, Prin. I realize that many people disagree with vegetarian diets for dogs (and for people). But presenting that as you did in a diplomatic, "in my opinion" way is fine. It is your opinion based on much research, I'm sure, just as supporting a vegetarian diet is my opinion - also based on much research. I researched my dog's diet much more than I ever researched my own and, as far as I can tell thus far, it is proving to be a healthy diet for him. Perhaps it would be better stated this way...it has not proven to be unhealthy in any way.

Isn't that all that one can expect of a dog owner or just of anyone? I researched the topic, considering all things such as my personal beliefs and, most importantly, his health. I changed him to a vegetarian diet, with adequate supplementation, and I pay close attention for any signs that he is not healthy.

And I assure you that, at the very first sign that vegetarianism was unhealthy for him (or for myself), I would make the appropriate changes.

I found just as much research supporting vegetarian diets (in dogs and people) as I did against it. And I didn't just search the internet. I searched veterinary medicine journals and animal nutrition journals. I researched this for over a year before making the change....that's quite a bit of research.

The most important point of my last post was that I think it's acceptable to voice our opinions but to recognize that they are just our opinions and that name-calling isn't necessary. Unless one of us is, indeed, an expert on animal nutrition, we should not insult the choices that others make for themselves or their pets, assuming that no unhealthy signs exist.

Prin
November 18th, 2006, 07:17 PM
You can do a lot more to put down a person than call them names.;)

Prin
November 18th, 2006, 07:18 PM
I changed him to a vegetarian diet, with adequate supplementation, and I pay close attention for any signs that he is not healthy.

And I assure you that, at the very first sign that vegetarianism was unhealthy for him (or for myself), I would make the appropriate changes.
And blood in the stool isn't enough so far? ;)

~michelle~
November 18th, 2006, 07:23 PM
not too add to much to the dog vegetarian debate, because thats a decision that you have made and thats ok, however I have researched both. I have practice vegetarianism, and studied health sciences, nutrition and some biology. Upon comparison to the canine and human digestive system there are many things that difffer. Humans (i believe and i know is controversial) ate a vegetarian diet mostly and occassionaly in prehistoric times ate meat RARELY if at all. if you look at our digestive systems they are not made to process meat.
1. our so called "canine teeth" are closer to that of an omnivore, and cannot rip/ tear raw flesh. actually all of our teeth are made for more of a grinding of vegetable, and grain than a meat eaters (do our teeth look anything like our dogs or any other carnivore for that matter?
2. the enzymes we posess are not suited to the digestion of meat, hence why if we eat raw meat we get sick. but raw veggies and we're A-O-K,
3. the layout and ratio of out intestinal tract are closer to that of omnivores 4. meat fats do alot of damage to our insides, the buildup of the fat leads to clots and heartattacks and strokes as well as obiesty.
A dogs sytem however posesses all of the needs for the carnivore's diet they are designed to chase prey, rip and tear flesh and digest raw meats. they would eat some veggies to sustain life when meat supplies are low. and occasionally assist with digestion.
Also supplements are not meant to be replacements. supplements are to compliment diets and make up for the occaional lack of dietary intake, they are not meant to completely replace a sector of our dietary needs. (unless due to a food sensitivity or allergy or apsorption problem) As a human vegetarian you can meet all of your nutritional requirements without the aid of supplements, however with busy lifestyles many humans both vegetarian and not require supplimets to assist with their dietary needs.
When taking supplements they are still not as useful in your diet as getting your nutrients from food.
I do not mean to start arguement or debate, but i know that many people wonder about this and this is what i have found through research, of repuatable and scholoarly sources.

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Thank you, Michelle, for the information. I can tell that you have done thorough research and, in mine, I found much of the same information.

And Prin, I thought it was clear that the blood in his stool was not related to his vegetarian diet but, if I learn otherwise, I'll go from there.

Thanks for your concern. Thus far, I will continue to feed Buddy a healthy vegetarian diet and will certainly keep you guys updated if anything changes.

Thank so much,
Becca

pitgrrl
November 18th, 2006, 08:27 PM
And blood in the stool isn't enough so far? ;)

I'm not really understanding how blood in stool would have any relationship to a veggie diet. Having dealt with blood in my dogs stool on a few more occasions than I'd like, I've talked endlessly about the subject with my vet, nutritional imbalance has never even remotely come up as a possibility.

This is not to say that other issues couldn't come up, but would this really have anything to do with it directly? Or are you thinking more along the lines of a weakened immune system which allowed for an infection?

As for the pro-biotics, you can get a couple of brands sold specifically for dogs, EaglePack makes one and I believe Udo's does aswell, though I know the EaglePack variety has meat in it. Otherwise, you can just get the human supplements and add it to the dogs food, it's the same thing basically.

My dogs have had GI problems forever and adding pro-biotics and digestive enzymes to their diets has helped immendsley.

Prin
November 18th, 2006, 08:29 PM
I'm thinking along the lines of too much fast fiber causing irritation as it pushes through the contents quickly enough that the stool ends up acidic.:shrug:

And being that it's a bacterial infection, of course the immune system comes into play too...:rolleyes:

Boo used to get those all the time when we'd give him chicken. The intolerance to chicken would disrupt his immune system so much that he had to have an anti-nausea shot in the belly and a penicillin shot in the hiney. We subsequently changed foods and he has been ok ever since.

Becca
November 18th, 2006, 08:38 PM
Thanks for the info.

The vet actually diagnosed him very quickly with a bacterial infection. He didn't even think about it...just reached that conclusion based on the stool sample I brought in and on the physical exam. Keep in mind that this was a very small amount of blood - most people probably wouldn't have noticed it except that I am in a habit of inspecting his stool because I pick it up every time (because of where I live) and because he had parvo as a puppy and I was forced to inspect his stool carefully while his immune system was very weakened, making him susceptible to anything and everything.

He has always had a sensitive stomach - always shows signs in his stool if he eats a different kind of treat or if someone slips him table food. This has gotten much better since being on the vegetarian diet. (may or may not be related to his diet).

And I researched the likely bacterial culprit and I think it's probably Clostridium. It's commonly in soil and Buddy often does dig in my plants out back. I'm sure he has inhaled or ingested some of the spores, causing this infection.

I'm just glad it's nothing serious and that he'll be better soon. Still, I am very interested in the pro-biotics, for myself and for Buddy.

Thanks!

Prin
November 18th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Like I said, with Boo, it was never directly from what he ate. The bad bacteria of his colon outcompete the good bacteria, merely because his immune system is shocked (by chicken). They are already in there all the time, as part of the intestinal flora, but their numbers are kept in check in a fragile balance between the good bacteria and the bad.

Sure probiotics help, but don't be surprised if it happens again, even if all he's eating is his veggie food.;)

Blathach
November 19th, 2006, 12:27 PM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed.