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Discouraged & ready to go back to SD :(

ShaggyRudy
October 28th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Evening All...

I'm so bummed. Rudy's itching is getting worse and I can tell he's now becoming miserable, poor thing :sad:

So, let's see - in an effort to switch him off of Science Diet we've tried Innova Adult Dry, Innova EVO, Pinnacle Duck & Potato, DVP Venison & Peas, & today I brought home Solid Gold Lamb Dry - he wouldn't even eat one little kibble of it as a treat!
Science Diet - this is what the shelter had Rudy eating when we adopted him back in Jan 06

Innova Adult - Rudy starts to itch
Innova EVO - Rudy LOVES this food, but itching got worse.
Started to switch over to Pinnacle - Rudy would eat "around" the Pinnacle and just eat the EVO, or just walk away from his dish. Itching still.
DVP Venison - Ate this, but itching got even worse.
Solid Gold - Sniffs and walks away.

I don't know what else to do. I even introduced an oil/vitamin suppliment sprinkled on his food, thinking that maybe the itching is just due to dry skin. It's not helping and today, I started to notice small clumps of hair on his bed an on our floor.
I know our vet will just tell me to get him back on Science Diet. I'm pretty close to going that route because I feel so bad for him.

Just looking for thoughts from everyone. I know you're probably sick of me talking about this food switch issue by now, sorry.

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Ok. Let's start with the lists:

DVP NB Venison and rice:
Venison, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Venison Meal, Rice Bran, Canola Oil (preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid), Natural Flavor, Flaxseed Oil, Kelp Meal, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Choline Chloride, L-lysine, Dl-methionine, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dried Parsley, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B-9).

Innova adult Dry:
Turkey Chicken Chicken Meal Ground Barley Ground Brown Rice Potatoes Natural Flavors Ground White Rice Chicken Fat Herring Apples Carrots Cottage Cheese Sunflower Oil Alfalfa Sprouts Egg Garlic Taurine Choline Chloride
Calcium Carbonate Vitamins/Minerals Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms

Innova Evo Dry:
Turkey Chicken Turkey Meal Chicken Meal Potatoes Herring Meal Chicken Fat
Natural Flavors Egg Garlic Apples Carrots Tomatoes Cottage Cheese Alfalfa Sprouts Dried Chicory Root Taurine Lecithin Rosemary Extract Vitamins/Minerals Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms


Pinnacle Duck and potato:

Duck Meal, Potatoes, Oatmeal, Duck, Oat Flour, Potato Fiber, Canola Oil (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Toasted Oats, Flax Seed, Quinoa, Grapeseed Oil, Lecithin, Rosemary, Sage, Papain, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidum Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Lactis Fermentation Product, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Riboflavin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, d-Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate.

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 06:14 PM
From that, I suspect he's allergic to canola oil and chicken. But I'll keep staring at them to see if there's more.

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 06:15 PM
My next food would be Evo RM. No canola, no chicken, no grains... If he's itchy on that, it could be potato or another meat and that's it.

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 06:17 PM
Just looking for thoughts from everyone. I know you're probably sick of me talking about this food switch issue by now, sorry.Oh, and no. I like a good challenge (when it isn't MY dogs...:o). ;)

Yep, the only other thing that it could be is potato, but like I said, if you try Evo RM and the itching continues, then that's that. Then, IMO, you head to raw.:o

(oo 4 in a row! :D)

LL1
October 28th, 2006, 06:18 PM
Have you done a skin scraping,checked for mange,fleas,and a full thryoid panel?Not all allergies are food related,could be totally unrelated.

meb999
October 28th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Have you done a skin scraping,checked for mange,fleas,and a full thryoid panel?Not all allergies are food related,could be totally unrelated.

I agree, but I think he's already been to the vets (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=31919)

ShaggyRudy
October 28th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Thanks for the quick responses.

I thought about him being allergic to chicken as well, but then I remembered that Science Diet has the following ingredients, and he never itched when he ate SD:

Chicken, Ground Whole Grain Corn, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Wheat, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Corn Gluten Meal, Brewers Rice, Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Oil, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), DL-Methionine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

As far as the vet - he's been there, but has not had any testing done because at the time, his itching really wasn't that bad, I just wanted the vet to take a look at a hot spot on his leg (that has since gone away). If it comes down to it, I can get tests done.
I'm just so confused because I've tried all different protein sources and nothing seems to work! I'm also nervous about the EVO RM because doesn't it have a negative long-term impact on dogs? I'm just affraid Rudy will really love it (like he does the regular EVO), and then I'll have to switch him off of it down the road anyway - make sense?
ugh :yell:

ShaggyRudy
October 28th, 2006, 06:46 PM
...maybe another option would be to switch him back to SD just long enough to see if the itching stops. That would help narrow things down, right? If he doesn't stop itching, then it would have to be some other skin issue??

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 06:49 PM
No, we found out the Evo RM is ok for long term. The Calcium/phosphorus ratio is ok, even if the individual values are a bit higher than usual. :shrug:

I think that's the last resort for you before you run out of options with good kibble.

How long after getting off science diet did he start to itch? I'm just thinking that he might have developed the allergy anyway if he had stayed on science diet.:shrug:

ShaggyRudy
October 28th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Well, that's good to know about EVO RM. Do you think I should go ahead and give that a try, or go back to SD for a little while to see if the itching stops?

How long after getting off science diet did he start to itch? I'm just thinking that he might have developed the allergy anyway if he had stayed on science diet

I think it was about a week after Rudy went off of SD and on to Innova Adult that we noticed the itching and the hot spot on his leg appeared around that same time.

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Hmm... As long as he doesn't have open sores and things from the itching, I'd say it's worth one last go at holistic... :shrug: The science diet just has nothing going for it nutritionally.

ShaggyRudy
October 28th, 2006, 07:07 PM
I agree :(

I'm also dumping a lot of $$$ into all of this experiementing!
I've got full bags of some of this stuff going to waste. I'm going to call our local shelter tomorrow and ask if they'll take an already-opened bag of any of them before I throw them away.

Rudy's worth all of this, though...

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 07:10 PM
You can bring them back to the store too. Maybe not all of them, but the more expensive, more full ones...:shrug:

Oh and buy small bags.:D

ShaggyRudy
October 28th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Yeah, I've been buying the smallest that they have in the store.

I think I'll go get the EVO Rm tomorrow and see if Rudy will at least SMELL it! :fingerscr

Thanks so much!

t.pettet
October 28th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Just a thought, recently stripped a sheltie of her undercoat, she was 4 yrs. old and had never been prof. groomed and her itching was chronic, leaving open sores from scratching and in a constant irritated state. Her owners would brush the surface and then bathe her which added to the irritation. Disregard this if Rudy's coat is free of mats and undercoat and his skin can breathe.

Paula69
October 28th, 2006, 08:50 PM
:fingerscr Hi, well when my Shep X was a puppy, she had terrible itching, treated her for all possible skin parasites, fleas, etc, made sure I had good shampoo and groomers say # source of irritation of improper rinsing or product! However, once the vets ruled out allergies, etc, it was finding the right food. Acana has worked great for me, I love it! Well, I haven't tried it myself, but my stray mutts are shimmery, sleek, very low poop, regular, don't need a whole lot of the stuff..no more itching? So who knows? I took a Pet Nutrition Seminar and it rated #2 after Royal Canine or whatever it is....I've been very successful w/ it and no more itching! It's an AB made dog food though, oh-oh, maybe you can't get it there? Here are Ingredients----Chicken meal,ground whole rice, chicken fat (preserved w/ mixed tocopherols, citric acid and rosemary), ground whole corn, beef pulp,rice bran,naturalchicken flavor,ground whole flax,whole dried egg,mannanoligosaccharides,salt, potassium chloride, inulin(FOS),high chromium yeast,lysine, choline chloride, garlic, yucca shidigera,glucosamine(powdered lobster shell),chondriotin sulfate (shark cartilage),L-carnitine,ascorbic acid (vitC), vitA acetate,cholecalciferol (vitD),dl alpha tocopherol acetate (vitE),*iron bioplex,*zinc bioplex, niacin, calcium pantothenate,*copper bioplex, *maganese bioplex,riboflavin, calcium iodate,thiamine mononitrate,pyridoxide hydrochloride,folic acid, biotin,selenium yeast,cobalt carbonate,menadione sodium bisulphate complex (vitK), vitB12 *chelated mineral Analysis I can give ya if ya want, inc OMega 6 and 3 etc..it came highly recommended, my dogs love it! There's all different formulas depending on size/age of dog. Good luck w/ the itchies!:ca:

meb999
October 28th, 2006, 08:58 PM
I took a Pet Nutrition Seminar and it rated #2 after Royal Canine or whatever it is....I've been very successful w/ it and no more itching!
It's an AB made dog food though, oh-oh, maybe you can't get it there? Here are
Ingredients----Chicken meal,ground whole rice, chicken fat (preserved w/ mixed tocopherols, citric acid and rosemary), ground whole corn, beef pulp,rice bran,naturalchicken flavor,ground whole flax,whole dried egg,mannanoligosaccharides,salt, potassium chloride, inulin(FOS),high chromium yeast,lysine, choline chloride, garlic, yucca shidigera,glucosamine(powdered lobster shell),chondriotin sulfate (shark cartilage),L-carnitine,ascorbic acid (vitC), vitA acetate,cholecalciferol (vitD),dl alpha tocopherol acetate (vitE),*iron bioplex,*zinc bioplex, niacin, calcium pantothenate,*copper bioplex, *maganese bioplex,riboflavin, calcium iodate,thiamine mononitrate,pyridoxide hydrochloride,folic acid, biotin,selenium yeast,cobalt carbonate,menadione sodium bisulphate complex (vitK), vitB12 *chelated mineral Analysis I can give ya if ya want, inc OMega 6 and 3 etc..it came highly recommended, my dogs love it! There's all different formulas depending on size/age of dog. Good luck w/ the itchies!:ca:

hmmm, any seminar that rates Royal Canine as #1 is run either by someone who sells RC or who who's sponsored by them. RC is not close to the top of ANY high quality food list. You may want to check out our dog food forum, there's alot of good info on there.
Acana isn't a bad food, but it isn't the best either. The chicken fat being one of the top three ingrdients isn't great (been linked to bloat), and it has Menadione, which has been removed from almost all high quality kibble. Not to mention the corn being in the top 5 ingredients....
This isn't a food I would recomend....JMHO though....

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 09:11 PM
Yeah, chicken fat before the 4th ingredient AND citric acid, both increase the chance of bloat.

I agree, meb, not much to recommend in there.

Paula69
October 28th, 2006, 09:48 PM
Really, so far tonite, I've learnt that I'm not getting good advice from my vets? Anything else I'm doing wrong? What do you guys reccomend for my SHepX? do you know of anything I should try that's similar? I know it did get rid of itchies though..went through about 5 kinds before I found that at Nutrition seminar, course that was almost 2 yrs ago... Well good luck w/ your problem, I'll shut up now..

meb999
October 28th, 2006, 09:52 PM
There's alot of good food info in the Dog food forum :thumbs up

Acana isn't a bad food, but there ARE better foods out there....we're all here to learn, I didn't post that comment for you to 'shut up' :o

Paula69
October 28th, 2006, 10:06 PM
I'll check it out, thanx!

technodoll
October 28th, 2006, 10:29 PM
TD staying silent but still whispering... "feed raw! feed raw! it gets rid of the itchies!" :o

Prin
October 28th, 2006, 10:32 PM
You're after Evo RM, techno. When she's really desperate and really seriously considering SD again.;) Wait your turn.:D

technodoll
October 28th, 2006, 10:33 PM
LOL! trying to elbow my way up the line :D

OntarioGreys
October 28th, 2006, 10:47 PM
thinking that maybe the itching is just due to dry skin. It's not helping and today, I started to notice small clumps of hair on his bed an on our floor.
I know our vet will just tell me to get him back on Science Diet. I'm pretty close to going that route because I feel so bad for him.


If the vets only suggest is to put him back on the SD, with those symptoms I would be looking for another vet. To me it seems you tried enough foods, different proteins, different grains and without grains and still problems

First thing I would do is demand a thyroid panel and a skin scraping to see what those show.

THe other thing is can be is a contact allergy, could be things like grass, leaf molds, does his bed contain cedar, do you wash his bedding often, it could be detergent or fabric softener try an extra rinse adding vinegar to the water, it will help to neutralize any phosphates, do you use any sort of carpet freshener if so rent a steam cleaner do the rugs twice with just water a 3rd time with vinegar added, wash your floors with just water and vinegar, if he sleeps on your bed you might have to try another product maybe just oxyclean or a detergent made for baby clothes and bedding don't use fabric softeners.

If you still have problems ask the vet to refer you to a vet dermatologist you might have to do allergy tests or check for possible autoimmune disorders

ShaggyRudy
October 29th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Thanks so much for the responses. They gave me some more things to consider.

Btw TD - I still hear ya! :thumbs up

Tambo
October 30th, 2006, 06:46 PM
I use Pet Promise dog food. Their website is www.petpromise.com. Take a look at how the food is made and the ingredients. It's the best food I have ever used and beleive me I have tried them all. Good Luck:dog:

mafiaprincess
October 30th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Seriously stop pushing that food. It's full of mediocre ingredients that aren't going to help a dog with problems. That's not even their website.. try www.petpromiseinc.com
While it doesn't contain by products it lacks nutrition too.

technodoll
October 30th, 2006, 06:56 PM
thank you MP - if you wouldn't have said it, i would! :frustrated:

OntarioGreys
October 30th, 2006, 07:32 PM
I use Pet Promise dog food. Their website is www.petpromise.com. Take a look at how the food is made and the ingredients. It's the best food I have ever used and beleive me I have tried them all. Good Luck:dog:

Tambo I would suggest you read the food forum here to understand why most of us would not feed or recommend this food soy and corn are common alergens for dogs, there is very little meat in the food since the meat labeled in in wet state and is follewed by 5 grains there is propbably more pea pods in the food than actual meat and definitely search
this website for menadione sodium bisulfite complex as it is consider harmful to dogs

muckypup
October 30th, 2006, 07:41 PM
You could try California Natural
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=home-tab
add CN canned or Trippet to wet because he's a picky eater.

ShaggyRudy
October 31st, 2006, 03:35 PM
Yeah, California Natural was another one I've considered.

Rudy's still on a mix of EVO and DVP's Venison & Green Peas. I'm bummed because he loves it!

We've started running our humidifier the last few days and it's now been about a week since I've been sprinkling the skin/coat oil supplement on Rudy's food....so I'm going to stick it out until this weekend to see if his itching lets up any. If it's not the food, and just dry skin or fall allergies - I'm hoping the itching will lessen. I'm going to give either EVO RM or CA Natural a try as a last effort! :fingerscr

Thanks again all! Very good suggestions.

bmerc
October 31st, 2006, 04:14 PM
Just a thought.
I moved from the city centre to a more suburban area 2.5 years ago. When we did this my dog started developing issues such as itchy ears, incessant paw licking and itching under his front legs and neck. He also developed ear infections. The change in the environment around our home he developed canine atophy (enviro/seasonal allergies). Every year now July through to when it begins to get real cold and snow, we see these symptoms. (also his toes are real red inbetween them) I went over options with my vet, I was told
1. injections
2. meds like benadryl, or non-drowsy types
3. corticosteroids -:eek:
4. Omega Fatty Acids and topical creams when inflammed

I chose #4. Omega F.A can be really useful in skin and coat probs. Consult with your vet though to make sure of the appropriate dose. With a really furry dog it might help.
Good luck

dogmelissa
October 31st, 2006, 04:52 PM
Wanted to post really quick to ask/suggest one thing.

My dog has food allergies, and though I tried a food my vet didn't recommend (she, of course, suggested a veterinary food, but I didn't like the ingredients so I found another), I did use the method she suggested. If you talk to other vets, I'm hoping you'll get the same response, and you *can* find this info on the web, in multiple sources, and here as well.

In diagnosing a food allergy, it is suggested that a novel protein & novel carbohydrate-source food should be fed for 6-8 weeks. No treats that aren't the same sources, no "human" food (at all!) and continual monitoring of symptoms. The concept is that in some animals, it can take up to 8 weeks before the thing that their body is reacting to is completely gone from their system, and their system stops reacting to it. If that kind of food results in a symptom-free animal, then you pick *one* item from previous foods (beef, perhaps, or corn) and introduce just that one item. If the animal is allergic to that thing, they will have symptoms usually within 2-3 days (some immediate, some take longer). If not, then you pick the next item you want to know about, and introduce that.

You say you've had your dog since January. You've tried 6 different foods, which suggests that you've used each for an appropriate amount of time. So I'm thinking that your dog probably isn't allergic to something in his food. However, since it's the easiest thing to rule out, I agree with Prin that perhaps a raw diet might be something to consider. Either that or at least a home-prepared diet, raw or otherwise. And if that doesn't clear up the itchies, then I'd start looking elsewhere for triggers.

Here's a webpage which may help you: http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/itch.html

Good luck.
Melissa
(PS: we never get sick of hearing about people's struggles with their pets; as long as you're still trying to solve the problems, we'll be here trying to help you!)

technodoll
October 31st, 2006, 05:37 PM
vets can administer allergy tests to dogs (just like doctors do to humans), it's a quick and easy way to find out exactly *what* your dog is allergic to, if anything (a food, a pollen, a plant, etc). might perhaps be time to have this checked out?... :shrug:

Prin
October 31st, 2006, 06:08 PM
Quick and easy, yes, but they can also be very expensive.:o

technodoll
October 31st, 2006, 06:23 PM
ah, but is there a price for your peace of mind and your dog's well-being and health? :love:

Prin
October 31st, 2006, 06:39 PM
Yeah. There is, when an elimination diet really, really helps... :) oo kids!

technodoll
October 31st, 2006, 06:44 PM
i guess i'm a "i want answers now" kinda person... specially if my dog was itching and scratching for months on end, being miserable, and i'd been through 6 kinds of foods, throwing most of it out... i would not have the patience for more months of trials with an elimination diet... go to vet, get tests done, results back, then work on a cure... of course assuming the fees are not astronomical :eek: has anyone had an allergy panel done, and how much did it cost?

Prin
October 31st, 2006, 06:56 PM
Oh, well, yeah... Going through alllllll that with no answers, yeah.. I would have stopped after 3 foods..:o I still want to get them for Jemma (my vet said it's between $400 and $600 depending on how comprehensive you want them), when I have spare money for them....:shrug:

technodoll
October 31st, 2006, 06:58 PM
(my vet said it's between $400 and $600 depending on how comprehensive you want them),

dat's alot of moohlah :eek:

out of curiosity... would a pet insurance cover any of this? i assume "no" but still curious... :cool:

Prin
October 31st, 2006, 06:59 PM
maybe... Not sure- don't have it.:o

technodoll
October 31st, 2006, 07:03 PM
yeah me neither... but am considering getting it... after dakotah's tooth accident and looking at maika's questionable rear... sigh.

oops sorry for the threadjack :o

ShaggyRudy
November 2nd, 2006, 06:06 PM
Well, I just talked to my pet sitter about the vet that she uses (I've been "vet shopping"), and I think I might have them do an allergy test on Rudy to get to the bottom of this. I have pet insurance, so I'm hoping they'll cover at least a little bit of it :fingerscr

dogmelissa
November 8th, 2006, 04:58 PM
Rudy's Mom: Have you had the allergy test done? If so, did the results show anything?

If not, you should phone the insurance people first and see if they'll cover some or all of the cost of the test, or treatment. The big reason I don't have insurance on my pets is because when I talked to them, they all basically gave me the impression that if there is any way they can call something a "pre-existing condition", and not cover it, they will. I figured that X amount of money every month that I'd be putting in insurance would be better put in a back account to be used in case of an "incident". It works for me, and if I don't have to spend it, then I can buy them special treats or toys or something nice. :)

Melissa