October 28th, 2006, 12:48 PM
I believe that the act of byb of any animal is wrong which includes retiles
just because you have extra lighting and a tank doesnt give you the right to breed these animals
unlike dogs and cats people assume reptiles are toss away pets even though they live up to 20 years
October 28th, 2006, 06:13 PM
:highfive: I agree.
November 18th, 2006, 03:45 AM
While I deffiently agree with this stance on dogs and cats but I strongly disagree with you reagarding the captive breeding of reptiles. Up until 10 years ago annually 10-30 thousand wild ball pythons were taken from the wild to supply the demand of the pet trade world wide. This was decimating wild populations which were already under stress from local human populations for food, skins and medicinal purposes. Since Captive breeding ( Back yard breeding is a completely inappropriate term for reptiles as they have no aggressive genes which can be passed on and inbreeding, though frowned upon has very few detrimental affects on their health unlike dogs and cats) this number has been cut in half and is the main reason all reptiles availble in captivity are living longer and have not yet gone extinct as their popularity ( I again agree that unforunatly many people get them unknowingly though this is true of almost every species of animal kept as pets) has exploded in the last 15 years.
It is our responsibility to properly educate and properly screen potential buyers before selling but to toss on such a blanket statement on a group of animals where captive breeding has positively affected the wild counter parts ( which thrived very poorly in captivity due to their high paraiste load).
Just my 0.02
November 18th, 2006, 10:50 AM
I think that the OP is referring to people who are not professional breeders of reptiles, people doing it for their own personal gain, not for what's in the best interest of the animal.
November 18th, 2006, 01:29 PM
Most good reptile breeders would be considered byb's or hobbyists. "Professional" breeders usually commercially produce snakes and the conditions aren't that great, they'll usually ship anywhere and a lot of the snakes die, so I'm not sure what you mean by "byb". The snake trade and hobby is different than ownership of cats or dogs.
A lot of hobby breeders take better care of their snakes and can give you better information on how to take care of them and what kind of housing to give them.
November 18th, 2006, 02:16 PM
BYB usually refers to breeders who don't care about the overall health of their animals and only mate because they are pretty or by accident.
The "professionals" you describe are the reptiley equivalent of a puppymill.
What pug lover is suggesting (I think), is that just because they're reptiles/amphibians, it doesn't mean you should breed them without caring about genetics and the future well-being of the offspring.
November 18th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Byb wasn't really the term I should have used, I just meant someone who breeds out of their house which isn't all that uncommon.
I was more responding to the fact that Stacer implied only professional breeders should breed snakes. Being a professional breeder doesn't automatically make you reputable, and many of the best snakes come from hobbyist breeders, not people that are out to make money.
There are professional breeders who have well taken care of snakes, and they're aware of the genetics when they breed, but most professional breeders need to sell a large quantity of snakes to make money off of it, so it automatically makes many of them disresputable IMO.
Hobbyist breeders are usually happy to tell you about their snakes, the genetics of their snakes, how to best take care of their snakes, and they're usually not in it for the money. Most hobbyists are in it to create beautiful healthy snakes and they're happy to introduce someone else to the snake world or trade information. These people wouldn't be considered professionals but they're great people to buy snakes from and their snakes are usually much more docile and well taken care of.
Snakes are better compared to fish than cats or dogs. Hobbyist breeders of fish want to create beautiful healthy fish to show off, whereas professional fish breeders often concentrate more on quantity in order to profit. Hobbyist fish breeders may be able to get a large quantity of money for a beautiful fish, but they mostly just want to create a beautiful healthy fish to show off.
November 18th, 2006, 07:17 PM
So the good reptiley breeders are comparable to the reputable dog ones, the Pros compare to the mills and the uninformed breeders are the bybs...:shrug:
November 18th, 2006, 07:35 PM
I'm not explaining myself very well, lol.
Yeah, you could say that. Hobbyists are in it because they want to create beautiful healthy animals much like a hobbyist breeder of any other animal. The difference with snakes is that breeders often seek animals that do NOT meet a standard, and then they try to repeat that color variation.
Reputable dog breeders try to stay exactly to the standard, and creating off the wall colors or mixing breeds is straying from the original purpose.
Snakes come in different species not different breeds, so that's what I mean by snake breeders are better compared to fish breeders than cat or dog breeders. If a cat or dog breeder takes a breed and tries to get something drastically different from the standard that makes them disreputable. If a snake breeder takes a species and tries to create drastically different color that's not necessarily a bad thing.
As far as the professional thing, professionals aren't necessarily the best people to buy from even if their snakes are healthy and well taken care of, because you're paying them to breed more and more snakes to sell. I just don't want people thinking professional snake breeders are the only option for buying good snakes. A breeder should have a good reputation, be knowledgeable, and their name should be well known to other breeders in the area (much like with any animal).
:o This is what happens when I try to explain several points at once.
I wasn't trying to say hobbyist snake breeders ethics aren't comparable to dog or cat breeders, it's just that snake breeders have completely different goals than cat or dog breeders, so just because a snake breeder does something completely different than a cat or dog breeder (like breeding out of standard), doesn't make them not reputable.
With a cat or dog breeder you want their animals to come out as close to the standard as possible and you don't want a large variation between litters. Using those rules to find a reputable snake breeder won't necessarily find you the best person to buy from.
I agree with the original point that no one should neglect their animals, I'm just trying to say that using the same rules that apply to finding a reputable dog/cat breeder may not always apply to finding a good snake breeder, and being a professional doesn't automatically make you a good breeder.
November 18th, 2006, 07:43 PM
No, I think we're both trying to say the same thing, only I'm talking dogs and you're talking snakes. The intentions of a good breeder for either is to have strong animals that will end up well cared for, regardless of money, right?
November 18th, 2006, 08:13 PM
November 19th, 2006, 02:03 AM
I understand what your trying to say now I just initailly took your post the wrong way and thought you were attacking the idea of breeding reptiles. We are deffiently on the same page however it's just that the dynamics of the hobby are very different then that of cats and dogs and we generally just use repuability opposed to terms like back yard breeder and puppy mills as they dont exsist in the same sense it exsits in the dog world. Even if you did go out and made the mistake of buying from a somewhat shady unreptuable breeder the worst you would need to worry about would be taking your new pet to a vet to treat any dieses common with ill proper care as genetics do not play any huge role in a snakes overall long term health as even inbreeding doesnt affect reptiles as it would dogs and is a common practice among people establishing new colour morphs and only becomes a problem when its done past the third or foruth generation and their is no real evidence suggesting snakes ( which are not domesticated like dogs and cats) inherit any aggressive behaviour through genes and seems to be more species specific and individualistic.
Another difference between dogs and reptiles in a "puppy mill" type setting as besides a few very easy to breed species like cornsnakes and ball pythons most snakes will only reproduce under very specific conditions and it takes alot of patience and exact temperatures and humidity to succesfully hatch eggs so the same sort of image that we conjure up when thinking of a dog puppy mill cant really be applied to reptiles as without proper care and specific conditions most reptiles will not survive let alone reproduce.
I deffientltly agree though if your breeding reptiles you should be in it for the love of that species and put as much effort in as possible to raise qaulity hatchlings and screen potential buyers well. Unfortunatly some people still get into such things for the wrong reasons and as such the animals suffer in cramped spaces to allow for mass production so to speak, and are refered to as irresponsible or unreputable breeders and can be of any age, background as theirs no real "profesional standards" to be a responsbile reptile breeder and hobbiest.
Just wanted to clear up my position as I think intially I might of come of a bit defencive, but I see now were all on the same page:)
November 19th, 2006, 02:26 AM
*** Mass confusion*** is everyone agreeing????
Cause I agree with the OP here, from the first post. There are pro's ( who are either captivly breeding endangered species) and there are people who see $$$$ thats the difference IMO
What freaks me out and forgive me if its a thread-jack, is.. why is it illegal to have a pet that is nativly wild in your region illegal to own but animals that are native to, lets say, the amazon are not illegal to own??? Just because it is imported at some point makes it alright? That really confuses me
November 19th, 2006, 02:36 AM
It's generally done as a deterance so that people will not simply go out and desimate wild populations which they can get for free oppossed to paying 50-300( can go much higher obviously but for most common species thats usually your price range) to buy a captive bred or even a wild caught snake. Usually you can buy a small game hunting lisence which allows you to collect wild snakes ( which are not endangerd) in your area up to a certain qouta.
I'd just like to add, I disagree with you, most of the "pros" in the hobby are ones who work with their personal favourite species and such recognised and top of the line Canadian breeders such as Henry Pinourn, Corey Woods, Jeff Favelle, Mardy and so forth all breed common species and invest quite a bit of money and time into raising qaulity common species. Even normal hobbyists like myself can still breed qaulity animals regardless of weather their common or not, whats important is that your animals are raised in the best enviroment possible and that their needs come first and if your lucky you'll break even but money should never be an object ( Most breeders cannot live off breeding snakes as you invest so much into their cages and heating and food its more of a hobby and passion then anything else).
November 19th, 2006, 02:54 AM
I think we're running into terminology differences here.
Us snake people don't usually use the word byb to refer to neglectful snake breeders because honestly the amount of snake breeders that keep their snakes in neglectful situations is low.
There are a large amount of snake OWNERS and RETAILERS that don't keep their snakes in proper enviroments, but as far as breeders, as colubridz mentioned you can't just throw a couple of snakes in a cage and expect them to breed. There's also the fact that it's not all that easy to get eggs to hatch (assuming we're talking about egg layers) since they need the proper incubation and bedding. Baby snakes also aren't that easy to keep alive, and adult snakes bring MUCH more money than babies, so someone who is out to make money by throwing a couple of snakes in a tank and expecting to get babies to make money off of is in for a huge surprise.
Someone who is expecting to profit is going to have to put time and money into aquiring a mature breeding pair (or several), setting up the proper enviroment for them to breed, setting up the proper housing for the eggs, etc. It's not really worth it for someone that doesn't know what they're doing, and someone who doesn't take care of their snakes likely isn't going to make much money.
November 20th, 2006, 08:09 AM
when i originally posted this thread i was thinking more about bearded dragons and gekos they are overly breed by anyone who can get them to breed FOR SALE PAIR OF BREEDING__________:mad:
one of my neibours had over 150 baby beardies and 9 different types of baby gekos of about a cluster of 6 each
for feed she was collecting ants which are bad for lizzards
this is a classical example of back yard breeding EXCEPT she was trying to give all these lizzards away for about 2 weeks and any left overs she had she fed to the larger lizzards :sick:
snakes now with the morphing being done to them will have the same results soon, where i am i can pre order specialized colors of a variety of snakes
what happens to these morphs when they are not the right colors?? how many times will they try for the differnt colors and how come i can pre order a corn snake in 12 differnt colors :shrug:
November 20th, 2006, 12:04 PM
It's all just to do with different recessive, dominant, co dominant genes inter mingling between different specimens. All colour morphs are a natural part of a species phenotype we simply tend to see the one dominant colour until an interesting wild caught specimen is brough in and added to the gene pool. Ball pythons and cornsnakes are the prime examples for this as breeders have begun to unlock tons of different colour morphs and patterns and some ball python morphs can cost anywhere from $1000 on the low end for something like a pastel and literally up to $100, 000. This is nesicarly a bad thing as most people unfortunatly value the animal they buy based on price. Being able to pre order a snake also dosen't indicate a back yard breeder it simply means that the hobbyist is planning on introducing a pair and is expecting a certain number of offspring so therefore anyone interested can be put on a waiting list if they pass the breeders screening. This is most common for harder to breed species like green tree pythons, savu pythons and so on.
Unfortunatly like you mentioned about the lady with the mass amounts of beardies, their will always be people who push what they can care for and while that number of offspring is common for some big name breeders like the sandfire dragon ranch and they can easily and responsibly care for such a number, many people can't. Just like in dogs, in reptiles we support people we know are talking good care of their animals and ignore the bad. Everything is done on reptutatuion.
March 7th, 2007, 08:02 PM
I agree with Colubridz I have 9 corn snake 2 ball pyhtons and 4 California King snakes
I have breed my corn snake for awhile know and it is alot different then breeding cats or dogs u have to really get involved with there breeding habits if u are wanting hatchlings
I really enjoy watching my corn eggs hatch and having thoses little eyes looking up at me
this is my first year for breeding my king snakes can't wait
eggs due in april starting with my corn snakes incubator is set got to buy another one for my king snakes though
can't start breed my pyhtons for another 2 years though but im enjoying there company they are very Fantastic creature
December 20th, 2007, 03:46 AM
the captive breeding of snakes( or any reptile for that manner) is actually a positive thing, when done in the right manner.
small breeding companies/ hobbiests/ or "byb" as you said typically DO take good care of the animals, and provide them with ideal conditions. However there are a lot of "professional" companies out there who "mass produce" reptiles in less than ideal conditions.
Captive breeding in ideal conditions should be supported, as it promotes the purchase of captive bred animals, and keeps wild specimens from being collected for purchase, where many don't adjust well and eventually die. Captive breeding in the long run helps certain species from extinction (such as the ball python, from Africa)
I guess it's all in one's own opinion though, I may be bias because I am a snake breeder myself.
December 21st, 2007, 09:50 PM
The main problem I see with keeping reptiles as pets is the amount of space they're given to live in. In the wild, snakes, turtles and lizards don't live in a 4X2X2 glass case. They wander for miles. Even the garter snakes in my backyard have quite the territory and if you watch their movements during the day, they seem to be in the same places at the same times of day.
I've kept turtles and lizards myself and always kept them in the biggest accommodation I could, but never found it was good enough. Just my opinion.
December 26th, 2007, 12:31 AM
I see that as a problem as well, but I have a few opinions on that. I have serious issues with keeping an animal crammed into anything that resembles a shoebox, something where they don't even have room to fully stretch, or there is no room for hiding places, or branches etc....
Any reptile I keep is given a spacious enclosure, one that they could happily spend their entire lives in, with enough space for a hot side, a cool side, multiple hides, a water bowl large enough to soak, and branches if the species climbs.
I say "could happily spend the rest of their lives in'' for a reason, one that you pointed out... you say that you see the wild snakes in the same places at the same time of day...and thats just it- they're meeting their basic needs, and nothing more. A snake will happily curl up and sleep in one spot for hours until it needs to hunt or drink ..etc.... If all their basic needs are given to them, they don't do much ''wandering'' at all. Especially since the need to hunt is gone.
Still, all my reptiles are given ample exercising space both on the ground and vertically whenever they feel motivated enough to do it.........however many many keepers don't provide the space , and that is an issue.