Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Rmb - raw meaty bones

mafiaprincess
October 27th, 2006, 01:12 PM
So.. Cider's teeth are plaquey lately.. We are brushing daily.. but I'm hurting her more than I'm helping remove plaque.

I was thinking maybe something like chicken necks might help.. but where does one 'shop' for such a thing. I've been to the butcher shop in town.. they don't have anything like that.. I was only looking at getting a few for now, so I'd even do grocery store like prices.. except the few closest don't package such a thing..

Help?

technodoll
October 27th, 2006, 01:23 PM
MP, you need something bigger than her mouth so she doesn't crunch, crunch, gulp. chicken necks are OK for toy and pocket dogs, i think cider is perhaps a big enough girl to handle turkey necks instead (they are more meaty and give a great scrubbing action). you need to find a butcher that specialises in poultry, calling around is your best bet. frankly *any* meaty bone will do the scrubbing trick... a pig's foot, a meaty beef rib, a big fat chicen drumstick... :dog:

Scott_B
October 27th, 2006, 01:34 PM
I like big beef neck bones or large ox-tail. They spend hours gnawing away at them, and theyre not too hard that they'll damage teeth.

Lissa
October 27th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Do you take the skin off a pig foot before giving it TD? Last time I bought a few for Dodger it took me ages to get them skin free:yuck:

I think riblets would be a good choice for Cider and I have seen those in the grocery store.

I find that chicken necks/backs do more for Dodger's teeth than marrow or knuckle bones but that is probably because he gets them more often.

The problem with chicken necks/backs is that since humans don't usually use them, most butchers want to sell them in bulk (and/or have to order them a day in advance). Prices also range - I was lucky that a friend gets 50lbs for $12 because all the other places I contacted were going to charge $30-40 for less or the same amount!!!
I don't like feeding grocery meats but a couple of times when I was in a bind I bought a couple of smallish whole chickens - Dodger HATED them. I am not sure why but the bones were much harder and clearly the meat was not as fresh. So I would stay away from whole chickens!
The only other concern I would have about giving backs to Cider is that they are very sharp and if she tries to bolt it or not chew properly it could cause problems.
You will also have to be careful about how much you give her, especially at first because she won't be used to digesting bone and will have either very hard or even whitish poops.

BTW - I just got some organic goat meat with bone...Stay away from goat bones! I find they are very sharp and sound like glass/porceline in Dodger's mouth! The meat is great and I know people who have given their dogs goat skulls but I am not comfortable with them.

technodoll
October 27th, 2006, 02:06 PM
BTW - I just got some organic goat meat with bone...Stay away from goat bones! I find they are very sharp and sound like glass/porceline in Dodger's mouth!

hmmm funny, goat meaty bones are maika's favorite! i think they are rib or back or neck pieces, not quite sure... but it's alot of thick bones and she plows through them like nobody's business, you should see her shiny pearl-white teeth :D never any problems digesting them either. she is a thorough chewer, though.

i love getting whole chickens and quartering them, both dogs go crazy over lightly-seared bone-in chicken (i do trim off any thick, hanging skin. if it's sticking to the meat, it stays, if not, it goes). so again, it depends on the dog, the quality of the meat, personal preferences, etc.

sidenote: with a big sharp knife, it's easy to slice off any skin you don't want to feed such as on pork hocks or feet (in my experience).

but MP is not looking to feed raw, just looking for a suitable "tooth scrubber" for cider to chew on... i definitely recommend skinless turkey necks, or pork or beef ribs, or neck bones. chicken frames are too boney and will be hard to digest unless balanced with meat, so yes i would not feed those to cider as a "tooth cleaning" solution...

MP, tell us what you have available (bring pen & paper with you to the grocery store, LOL) and we can help you! :dog:

Lissa
October 27th, 2006, 02:22 PM
The goat bones just make me nervous. Dodger is a lazy chewer and he won't swallow things that he has broken down. He was at it for so long I finally checked on him and he had puntured his gums in a couple of places so no more goat bones for him (although he loves the meat and its very lean:thumbs up )!

Pork riblets are really cheap - you can get them for under $4 for 2-4 pieces depending on the size (when I've bought them from the grocery store the average price is $2 for 3 pieces).

mafiaprincess
October 27th, 2006, 06:34 PM
I'm a tool.. I wrote a reply after Techno posted, never hit enter I guess, figured I had, and then lost it.. found out 10 minutes later I never had replied..

Think a lot of people's issues when it comes to raw like things, is acquiring, and how to not sound like an idiot when looking for them.. has me all paro..

LOL. Guess I'll check the phonebook for butcher's first, and inquire if I can find skinless turkey necks. Otherwise I'll hit a few larger grocery stores and write it down and come ask what's good or not. :)

Thanks everyone.

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Alrighty, I was at the grocery store we usually shop at this morning and look at the meat section and picked up a package of pork riblets.

Ummm what do I 'do' with them? hahah. Like they are as long as the styrofoam container. She'd kinda small... Do I give half the riblette piece cause there's a lot per riblette...?

Also she's tooly when you give her something she actually has to chew... She carries it around and cries... Do I just block her in the kitchen with me and see what she does with it? Cause obviously cutting it up isn't going to clean her teeth.

technodoll
October 29th, 2006, 01:02 PM
yay! now let's see what we can do...

first, find the right size for cider: too big to swallow and choke on, but small enough to encourage her to chomp, munch, and scrape those teeth. some dogs need encouragement so you can select the size of riblet to give, and quickly sear it in a hot pan (no butter or oil) to bring out the flavor of the meat. searing will not cook the bone, so it's ok. about 5 or 10 seconds on each side should do the trick. you can also hold the riblet and encourage cider to chew on it, make it a game of sorts.

good luck & please keep us posted! :highfive:

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 01:05 PM
Looks to me like there's 4 pieces of bone in each piece of meat..
should i just give her the whole piece, for fear that 2 ribblettes could be a choking hazard?

That's a good idea about searing it fast. I had forgotten you'd mentioned that before. I almost picked up another package of chicken organs, and then was like I'm cleaning her teeth not making her diet. lol.

Scott_B
October 29th, 2006, 02:05 PM
If its too big for her to swallow whole, then thats a fine size. Bigger the better. That way she has to chew it to get it down to size. And don't be afraid of gulping. A quick chomp, crunch gulp is normal. :thumbs up

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 02:07 PM
haha if only.. I gave it to her she licked it, laid down and cried.. I seared both sides.. She licked it for about 10 minutes and gave up.. She doesn't know what to do with it. And won't touch it if I hold it for her. She loves raw meat in pieces as I cook dinner, but is unsure what to do with a chunk.

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 02:59 PM
But Mom.. I'm trying...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/Mafia_Princess/IMG_0290.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/Mafia_Princess/IMG_0289.jpg

technodoll
October 29th, 2006, 03:07 PM
oh boy, luckily the beanies are not there, they'd have snatched that yummy rib up in no time at all :D does cider chew on toys at all?..

meb999
October 29th, 2006, 03:08 PM
What? You mean you're not going to cut it up for me? I hope you don't actually expect me to WORK for my food... :rolleyes: humans:rolleyes: ...

Frenchy
October 29th, 2006, 03:14 PM
What? You mean you're not going to cut it up for me? I hope you don't actually expect me to WORK for my food... :rolleyes: humans:rolleyes: ...

I know ! Cider is a :queen: where's the fourk and knife? :confused:

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Techno.. least your crew would do something with it. It's back in the fridge.. She picked it up flung it some, licked it a lot and then cried and cried and cried. Think we'll try it a little later..

Yeah Cider is all over stufties.. She chews on hooves. Likes ropes. Plays with rubbery stuff if you play too.. otherwise it's not so fun unless the toy is brand new.

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 07:25 PM
I cut off one end so that a bone showed.. she was more taken with it then.. but she licks it, plays with it. Won't try chewing it though.

technodoll
October 29th, 2006, 07:45 PM
maybe she needs another dog to show her what to do!

ok, has she ever eaten a raw bone, at all? ever? maybe something smaller, like indeed a chicken neck? just to get her started!

she is the rare exception, but it can be done! :pray:

mafiaprincess
October 29th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Only raw thing she's had is a marrow bone piece from the butcher with a little bit of meat on the outside.. Ate that no issue.. Otherwise she eats raw meat pieces as I make dinner some nights..

It's like she doesn't know how to 'break it off' to eat some.. But she won't touch it with paws.. Stands over it and shakes it a little.. Finally when I crated her with it she chewed on it a bit.. but started to get mad and bark at me so I took it away again...

She's a princess who won't get dirty I guess.

Scott_B
October 30th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Pricess sounds like a good word :p

Rosco is anything but that. He digs right in. his paws get all covered in whatever hes eating. Well, for a chicken back or somthing smaller, he doesnt, but for his larger beef neck bones or lamb he'll lay down and chew away.

mmm, fish

http://www.scottsite.ca/images/Bullies/June18/June1802%20(2).JPG

mmm, lamb

http://www.scottsite.ca/images/Bullies/june%2017/June1706%20(12).JPG

Oh, hes much bigger now :p

mafiaprincess
October 30th, 2006, 10:26 AM
So cue even when chowing down on raw meat lol. See he's using his paws to hold it... That's part of the issue.. Not wanting to touch it, means she can't tear it at all.

technodoll
October 30th, 2006, 10:38 AM
no worries mp, neither of my dogs ever touch the meat (bones or not) with their paws! that would be "wrong", LOL!

here's how dakotah ate his stuff as a puppy, once or twice he "positioned" rmbs or fishies with his feet but then no more touching (i'll have to take pics of both of them now chomping away, to show you!)

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j129/technodoll/P4060110.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j129/technodoll/P5080255.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j129/technodoll/P5080256.jpg

(once a clown, always a clown! LOL)

mafiaprincess
October 30th, 2006, 10:46 AM
That is mighty cute too... *thread jack I want another puppy!*

See she won't even lie down to chomp on it though.. so the meat runs away on her, lol.

Scott_B
October 30th, 2006, 10:46 AM
What a cutie he is! Please more pics! :thumbs up

Goldens4Ever
October 30th, 2006, 10:49 AM
ScottB or anyone else,

I'd like some info on feeding whole, raw fish. Can dogs eat the whole thing, i.e. eyeballs, head, bones, etc.? I have not heard of doing that. Also, I like the idea of feeding my girls a raw lamb bone like ScottB did, but how do I ensure that the bone with the raw meat on it is 'safe' for them to consume? Anything I need to ask the butcher about the bone and/or meat that's on it?

My oldest golden (Goldie) is definitely a chewer and they both hold on tightly to their bones while they are knawing on them. Usually we only purchase SHIN bones, ones that are USDA inspected and sterilized, but they are not super interested in them. So, I'd like to find another alternative that tastes better and is just as 'safe.'

MafiaPrincess, my youngest golden (Aspen) had yellow tartar on her teeth despite the fact that I brush her teeth daily with a dog toothpaste that contains fluoride! Anyway, once she started knawing on a bone last week, it was 99.9% gone in 1 day! I understand your concern and frustration. Hopefully you can get your dog to take interest and chew away on something! Still, Aspen doesn't fancy chewing on things as much as the oldest (Goldie). And, if little Aspen has the particular bone that Goldie wants, Goldie will make a sudden jump and growl, then take it away from Aspen.

technodoll
October 30th, 2006, 10:59 AM
scott, if someone starts a thread on "puppy pictures" i'll throw some in of the two beanies, LOL! i can't believe they have both grown up sooo fast... sigh :(

anyhoo.... feeding raw fish is easy: just stay away from raw wild pacific salmon and you're fine! the best to feed are oily ocean fish (sardines come in a variety of sizes, so does mackeral, smelts are cool...) there are sooo many fish out there it's incredible! buy what you can find at a reasonable price. My kids used to love frozen fish but now they won't touch them :eek: Fish is best served whole (yes with head, guts, etc). raw bones are soft and easily digestible, cooked bones turn hard and needle-like so never feed those unless they are from canned fish, then the bones are mushy-soft (like salmon).

any meat and bones you get for human consumption is deemed safe, of course as long as it's fresh - that's when having a good butcher is important. knuckle bones are great for teeth cleaning (dakotah is chewing on one in the first photo). check this out for "recipes" and photos of dogs chewing on all sorts of raw meaty bones! http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

:highfive:

Scott_B
October 30th, 2006, 12:19 PM
Actually, I was mistaken with that first picture, thats a pork knuckle bone. I actually got that at global pet foods and its packaged up by urban carnivor. I dont usually get them there, as I have a different supplier now, but it was more of an impulse, hey lets try one of these, type purchases.

As for fish, Techno hit the nail on the head. I'm lucky when it comes to fish as I work at our family fish plant. I buy 35lb blocks of whole frozen mackeral for very cheap. So its very easy to come by. But yeah, its all good for them. eyes, gills, bones. I find its best to feed em still a bit frozen. less messy that way! :thumbs up

Lissa
October 30th, 2006, 03:31 PM
Dodger gets fish as often as once a week or once every 2 weeks but I do not give it to him whole (although I admit its mostly his laziness that dictates that!):o
A lot of people will not feed fresh whole fish because the bones are small and sharp, the dorsal fins are prickly (and because of what could be lurking in their stomachs/mouths like hooks).

Dodger is not much for laying down or having anything other than his muth touching an RMB either - I will have to find the really ugly pick of him chomping on the last bit of his rib bone!

Goldens4Ever
October 30th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Hhhmmmm, I am going to Bookmark that link, thanks. Eventhough our girls eat TO kibble, we are always looking for good stuff to mix. Do you let the dogs completely consume the bone, or do you take it away at some point? When our dogs chew the SHIN bones down, we take them away and give them another. As far as durability of bones, are knuckles as durable as shin bones?

:offtopic: Now, I saw on the website that you can feed wild birds, so I would assume that includes goose. Do they eat the bones as well or just the meat? The website said you just give the whole, cleaned bird to them. My dad hunts goose and I am always leary of the bird flu epidemic. How do I know if their raw goose meat is safe for them to consume? Why did you say to stay away from raw, wild Alaskan salmon? I sometimes feed Aspen COOKED, wild Aslakan Salmon, is that OK? I will not feed them farm-raised fish of any kind, as I won't even eat it. Most of the fish in the stores in WI primarily sell farm-raised stuff.

technodoll
October 30th, 2006, 05:35 PM
Do you let the dogs completely consume the bone, or do you take it away at some point? When our dogs chew the SHIN bones down, we take them away and give them another. As far as durability of bones, are knuckles as durable as shin bones?

Knucklebones are softer and gentler on the teeth than shin bones, as they contain more cartilege, but they are still super tough and durable... most butchers will give them away, or almost :) since knucklebones are for recreational chewing (not food like chicken legs, for example) most dogs will chew on the same bone for days and days. just rinse and store in the fridge or freezer after a chewing session to keep it fresh for up to a week.

Now, I saw on the website that you can feed wild birds, so I would assume that includes goose. Do they eat the bones as well or just the meat? The website said you just give the whole, cleaned bird to them. My dad hunts goose and I am always leary of the bird flu epidemic. How do I know if their raw goose meat is safe for them to consume? Why did you say to stay away from raw, wild Alaskan salmon? I sometimes feed Aspen COOKED, wild Aslakan Salmon, is that OK? I will not feed them farm-raised fish of any kind, as I won't even eat it. Most of the fish in the stores in WI primarily sell farm-raised stuff.

I personally have zero experience with wild game (venison or birds!)... all i know is that goose is quite fatty and i would make sure to clean most of the skin and fat off before feeding the meat-on-bone... the bigger the bird, the bigger the bones so make sure you feed size-appropriate pieces. :)

raw wild pacific salmon can contain a parasite that is fatal to dogs (cooking or freezing kills the parasite), here is some information on the subject: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp

:dog:

Goldens4Ever
October 30th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Very good info. My vet sells raw diets by Bravo! So, they have the knuckle bones, but I do not know if they only come in beef, as I think my little one may be allergic to beef. I hope I can fine a lamb one....? I will definitely check, as they much prefer bones with smells and meat on them.....duh! The sterilized shin bones are a safe alternative, but not very interesting or tasty.
I will call the vet and see about some knuckle bones. Goldie is an EXTREMELY aggressive chewer, and Aspen is not. When we get them really tasty bones, we have to section them off in the house so Goldie doesn't attack Aspen to get her bone :evil: Sometimes Aspen will back off and let her have both, but on a rare occassion, she will put up a fight to keep hers. And then sometimes she will whine at me to get her bone from Goldie, LOL; very cute.

About fish, I am glad that I saw that article, although I still like the idea you said in another thread about canned fish. I am going to definitely mix some of that stuff for Aspen.

technodoll
October 30th, 2006, 05:54 PM
G4E, you will save a LOT of $$ by getting your knucklebones fresh from your local butchers - trust me! any ungulate will yield knucklebones (lamb, goat, pork, beef, venison, etc) so it's just a matter of finding a butcher that carries what you need. i've seen the markup on those Frozen Diet Raw Bones and it's highway robbery! and they're not fresh, either. AND the butcher can saw the bone into as many pieces as you want, and the size you want. anyways... just my opinion :)

Goldens4Ever
October 30th, 2006, 05:55 PM
What is a femur bone? Is that as durable as a shin or knuckle?

technodoll
October 30th, 2006, 06:11 PM
knucklebone is essentially the knee (joint) and femur & shin are the thick, straight leg bones, with or without the joint at the end.

here are some photos, unfortunately all these bones are smoked (ie, cooked) so NOT a good choice, you want raw, fresh, and still holding some scraps of tasty meat and not greasy carcinogens and artificial flavor! :eek:

cut femur bone:

http://www.petco.com/Assets/product_images/8/8518442100B.jpg

intact femur bone:

http://www.dresslersdog.com/media/tre-gigantis.jpg

knucklebone:

http://www.askthemeatman.com/images/The_Meatman_Pictures_005.jpg

Goldens4Ever
October 30th, 2006, 07:23 PM
Great-thank you. I did not know that a femur bone was the same as a shin bone; those are the ones that we buy, the cut femurs/shins. Until now, I did not know that the smoking process actually cooked the bones. But, when I think about it now, it is the same as the process for smoking meats, in that it is a cooking process.

As far as where to purchase the bones, when you say butcher, are you referring to a meat place inside of a grocery store or a privately-owned meat market? I think there might be a difference between the two in terms of quality of meats....? If I purchase more than one bone, do I just freeze the others until I am ready to use them? What would I wrap them in? If the bones contain a substantial amount of meat, how 'fresh' should they be? Cut that very day, the day before, two days before, etc.?

I haven't looked into my vet's price for bones, but I wouldn't doubt that you are right about the higher prices. Have you heard about Bravo! raw food diets? Canadians probably have greater access to fresh meat markets than us Wisconsinites, as most people simply get their meat from the grocery store.

Scott_B
October 30th, 2006, 08:15 PM
I find it pretty hard to find things cheap. I actually get all my supplies from a company called Totally raw dog food.

www.totallyrawdogfood.com

the prices are great, they package everything in whatever size portions I need. Very handy!

Heres Rosco tonight having his side of lamb.

http://www.scottsite.ca/images/Bullies/Oct30/DSC02935%20(Medium).JPG

http://www.scottsite.ca/images/Bullies/Oct30/DSC02935%20(2).JPG

http://www.scottsite.ca/images/Bullies/Oct30/DSC02935%20(3).JPG