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Ethical Dilemma

jesse's mommy
October 22nd, 2006, 02:22 PM
Alright so here is the deal. Guess what we just found in our backyard -- a rat. It must have come up from the lake. In fact, I know it's from the lake. We took a picture and confirmed it with our neighbor and they said, "Yep, there's a ton of them here". They said sometimes they just sit outside with the pellet gun and shoot them. :eek: The weird thing is that the rat was extremely tame. It just sat there looking at us. He was cute.

Anyway, here is my dillemma, I am morally opposed to killing anything (except bugs in my house, yuck!), but I know that we can't let them "overpopulate" for the obvious reasons.

1. Because of Jesse. I would hate to see something happen to her or have her contract some kind of disease because wild rats do carry plenty.
2. Because of the house. I know it's really bad once they come inside. What if they multiply, what if they get in the walls. In fact, we may have some now in the attic that we don't even know about. This scares the doody out of me -- again because of the disease.

So, what do we do? We can't just let them go because they will eventually make their way to the house, but I don't support killing them either. I don't think relocating the rats is an option either. I know this doesn't have anything to do with rats in a lake, but we don't live in a neighborhood that you would think rats are common. It's clean. Wait, that didn't sound right, but I hope you know what I mean. My honey suggested (to get the don't you dare look out of me) that he catches them, puts them in a bag and throws them in the lake. Again, the don't you dare look came upon me (and he wouldn't do that). So then there are traps, but I don't want them to suffer. There's the pellet gun, but again I don't want them to suffer. I guess there is poison, but we have Jesse so that's not an option. What do we do? I don't support killing them, but know in my head that we probably have to.

Prin
October 22nd, 2006, 02:26 PM
Honey suggested (to get the don't you dare look out of me) that he catches them, puts them in a bag and throws them in the lake. What about if your hubby traps them and throws them (bagless) to the neighbors? :o

I hope I never have to deal with something like this. I'd be in the same position as you.:(

Maybe borrow somebody's Jack Mussle? Oooo or get a cat!!

jesse's mommy
October 22nd, 2006, 02:32 PM
What about if your hubby traps them and throws them (bagless) to the neighbors? :o

I'm sure they would just come back through the fence. :sad:

I hope I never have to deal with something like this. I'd be in the same position as you.:(

This REALLY sucks.

Maybe borrow somebody's Jack Mussle? Oooo or get a cat!!

I like that idea, but I wouldn't let the cat outside. :o

jiorji
October 22nd, 2006, 02:37 PM
but then you'd have a diseased cat who eats rats. :yuck:

personally i would do some research as to how to keep them as far away from the house as possible. Rats are pretty dangerous if they're wild. And you can't always keep your eye on Jesse. Tame or not, you never know when a rabied one will come along or when one will get a disease and bite while you're outside in the garden at night.

I;m all for animal rights and stuff like that, but where do you draw the line for personal safety you know? maybe call animal control and see what they have to suggest and take notes?:o

jiorji
October 22nd, 2006, 02:38 PM
movie "Willard" comes to mind hehe

jesse's mommy
October 22nd, 2006, 02:40 PM
movie "Willard" comes to mind hehe

I refused to watch that movie. The commercials freaked me out too much. :yuck:

Prin
October 22nd, 2006, 02:43 PM
No, you don't let the cat outside. You just let it kill the rats that come in the house....:o

jesse's mommy
October 22nd, 2006, 02:48 PM
Is there really a humane way to kill something? :(

Prin
October 22nd, 2006, 02:55 PM
Only if it's already dying...:shrug:

ByronsMum
October 22nd, 2006, 02:58 PM
maybe call animal control and see what they have to suggest and take notes?:o

I agreed with you there jiorji... They at least may be able to give you ideas on how to keep them away from your house. They may not necessarily, though, come over and get rid of it. But certainly call and express your concern! Let us know how it goes!

technodoll
October 22nd, 2006, 08:22 PM
there are certainly "rat traps" available in hardware stores and such... i wouldn't mess around with "vermin" IMO... there is a difference between rats raised as pets in a sanitary environment, and rats breeding in the wild. i too cannot kill anything besides bugs, so I would get someone else to do it :(

wdawson
October 22nd, 2006, 08:53 PM
jesses mommy...........i don't mean to be harsh but .....you gotta kill the vermin......they are a health risk , you don't want rabies , west nile , or any other virus\disease\bugs getting on jesse

jesse's mommy
October 22nd, 2006, 08:58 PM
I know they have to die, but I don't want to be the one to do it and when it is done, I want it done as humanely as possible. I don't think I can deal with the squealing of a dying critter -- even if it does carry diseases. Honey wants to get a poison trap that is safe around Jesse. The way the "box" is setup, Jesse couldn't get to it. But, I read that poison causes an extremely painful death to them and can make their hearts and their insides explode.

jiorji
October 22nd, 2006, 09:01 PM
hehe Willard. I saw that movie. I couldn't look at my guinea pig for a whole week after that. Plus my first guinea pig's name was Ben, which is Willard's favorite rat's name . SHRUG! lol

well if you can't kill them you can at least look for solutions on how to repel them and make sure they stay far away from the houses

MyBirdIsEvil
October 22nd, 2006, 09:03 PM
Poison is a lot less humane than shooting them.
Yeah it sounds harsh, but you're planning on killing them anyway. Either get someone who is a good shot with a pellet gun, or do it yourself :shrug: .
I love animals too, and I definately love rats, I've had them as pets, but wild rats are a pest, and if it came to the point where their population was out of control I would be taking care of it myself.
Poison can end up killing other small creatures, and giving them a slow death is inhumane IMO.

Also, call your animal control first and see what they recommend.

wdawson
October 22nd, 2006, 09:07 PM
jesses mommy

you have to kill......we have a problem here in hamilton.....we got alot of rain...sewer back-ups....RATS.......they gotta go

rainbow
October 22nd, 2006, 09:34 PM
I agree with Wayne and MBIE....you have to kill them. If you can't do it yourself then hire someone. You just can't take the risk of them getting into your house. :eek:

Frenchy
October 22nd, 2006, 10:03 PM
I say get a pellet gun and enjoy :evil: there's a mouse in my kitchen somewhere, if the cat don't get it and I have a chance, it WILL die :mad: Now you're talking about rats,even worse! :yuck:

mummummum
October 22nd, 2006, 11:29 PM
jesse's mommy, there should be loads of "wildlife control" companies in the telephone book. They are the same folks who deal with squirrels, skunks and raccoons. They cost $$ is the only thing. If you can find the money you can always have them lay humane baited traps around your house, collect the trapped live rats and dispose of them off-site. That way you don't have to see, hear or know about their deaths. *shuuddddders, just thinking about being swarmed by rats*

OntarioGreys
October 23rd, 2006, 09:14 AM
Long article but discusses several methods of killing, trapping , how to keep them out of your home also talks about repellents

http://www.bugspray.com/article/rats.html

happycats
October 23rd, 2006, 09:42 AM
Are they rat rats, or are they muskrat (sp)the water variety)
I know for sure I could never kill them.
There must be natural ways to keep them off your property.
I know mice HATE mint, so maybe mint mouthwash, or mints, or mint toothpaste. or evern oil of peppermint, you might want to plant peppermint to deter them.

happycats
October 23rd, 2006, 09:48 AM
Or you may want to try this. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000A3I9QY/ref=nosim/?tag=electronicssh-20

Frenchy
October 23rd, 2006, 11:41 AM
I know mice HATE mint, so maybe mint mouthwash, or mints, or mint toothpaste. or evern oil of peppermint, you might want to plant peppermint to deter them.

And if this doesn't work,at least you will have rats with fresh breath! :D

rainbow
October 23rd, 2006, 11:59 AM
Funny Frenchy :D ...Scope could make a commercial with that. :crazy:

jesse's mommy
October 23rd, 2006, 12:25 PM
That was really funny. :D

Well here is a bit of good news. We only saw one rat and honey was trying to shoot it with a pellet gun (he's a really bad shot so he was unsuccessful). Anyway, he was shooting towards the fence and our neighbor yelled "hey, we're over here". So, honey said, "get that rat that just ran under the fence" and well, he did. He takes pride in stuff like that. :o I told honey to tell him that we'll keep sending them his way and he can take care of it. :)

ByronsMum
October 23rd, 2006, 12:32 PM
I say get a pellet gun and enjoy :evil: there's a mouse in my kitchen somewhere, if the cat don't get it and I have a chance, it WILL die :mad:

Frenchy's feelin' feisty today!!! :evil:

jesse's mommy
October 23rd, 2006, 12:37 PM
I think I have to agree with you. :evil:

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 03:42 PM
So, honey said, "get that rat that just ran under the fence" and well, he did. He takes pride in stuff like that. :o I told honey to tell him that we'll keep sending them his way and he can take care of it. :)lol lucky your 'hubby' doesn't have issues with his manhood.:D

normag
October 23rd, 2006, 03:49 PM
Im afraid I have to go with kill they are vermin and spread disease, I dont think of them as animals in fact they scare the bejeebers out of me, I know this wont sit well with people who have rats as pets. I feel very lucky I live in a rat free province Alberta.

jesse's mommy
October 23rd, 2006, 04:15 PM
Well, there is no question that they have to be killed, but I refuse to be the one to do it. I just can't. Honey will do it if he has to, but I argue that I want it to be as humane as possible. I seriously couldn't deal with the screeching from a dying animal nor do I want it to suffer over days with poison.

I did inspect the inside of the house today and it definitely doesn't look like any have made it inside -- thankfully. If there are any that made it inside, it's in the attic and well, I'm not going there. :o I told honey he needs to look.

mummummum
October 23rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
... I feel very lucky I live in a rat free province Alberta.


*** will NOT discuss politicians, will shut up now***:D

badger
October 23rd, 2006, 04:23 PM
Personally, I would rewind this movie and forget you saw the rat, ONE rat. It would have to be in very close contact with your dog for anything to be transmitted, if it has anything to transmit.
On the other hand, rat-proofing your house and making sure there's no garbage to attract them is a great idea.

jawert1
October 23rd, 2006, 05:02 PM
If you've ever seen a jack russell or a dachshund rip apart a rat, you'd opt for the pellet gun in a heartbeat (I've seen both :/). Can you get animal control to deal with them if you trap them?

jesse's mommy
October 23rd, 2006, 08:00 PM
Well, here's a picture of the critter. :o

Frenchy
October 23rd, 2006, 08:08 PM
:yuck: what's he's doing still alive :confused: Did you try the minth thing? Does he gives lovely kisses :p

jesse's mommy
October 23rd, 2006, 08:26 PM
No, this is the picture I took so we could show our neighbors and ask them about it. This is the guy who ran under the fence to the neighbor and met his doom. :rip:

rainbow
October 23rd, 2006, 09:24 PM
So he was the one and only?

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 11:18 PM
OMG he's the rat of Nimh! When you look at the rosebush at night, is there a glow from underneath it? And are your electricity bills abnormally high for your usage?:eek:

jesse's mommy
October 24th, 2006, 08:11 AM
We haven't seen any since him and Jesse is no longer looking for him in the backyard. Maybe they are afraid of Jesse? The neighbor who told us that they see them all the time and sit outside with a pellet gun don't have a dog, so maybe that has something to do with it. I don't know. It's weird because they are on the water too so I would think all the houses would have them in the backyard.

doggy lover
October 24th, 2006, 08:25 AM
I know there are some like ultra sonic sound things that keep mice out, I wonder if there is something like that for rats? Other than that I'd say shoot them, with poisons I'd be too scared that your doggie would get into it better to be safe than sorry.

happycats
October 24th, 2006, 09:53 AM
Call me crazy:crazy: but I still think that little critter is cute! (mint breath or not):D

wdawson
October 24th, 2006, 06:28 PM
since its halloween.....dress like this http://bestsmileys.com/dead/7.gif and take care of them....:D

erykah1310
October 24th, 2006, 06:32 PM
I dont agree with the "you have to kill it" responses you are getting, but then again it does varry greatly on your area. We have rats here, and I am not overly concerned with the cats or dogs getting diseases from them.

Once and a while one rat gets in the house and the cats take care of that. End of story.

You could get a live trap... trap it ( but it can be hard cause they are smart) and when and if you catch it, drive it off into the woods ( granted there are some around) and release it.

Is there a problem with rats in your area carrying rabies or other diseases??? if there is than yes, destroy it, but if there is no confermed cases, then consider relocating it
JMO

Prin
October 24th, 2006, 06:34 PM
But he has to save Timothy Frisby. :sad:

erykah1310
October 24th, 2006, 06:38 PM
But he has to save Timothy Frisby. :sad:

Prin sometimes it worries me that you can reference to things I havent even thought about in 15+ years! lol:D

Frenchy
October 24th, 2006, 06:45 PM
You could get a live trap... trap it and when and if you catch it,
JMO
when you catch it,foster it and put it on petfinder ! :p

coppperbelle
October 24th, 2006, 07:48 PM
If you set snap traps they will kill the rat once he tries to eat the bait so you won't have to. I would not set poison around pets. Even if you hide the poison there is always a chance that the rat will die somewehre where your pet can get it and eat it thus poisoning your animal.
In my opinion they are vermin and I wold not tolerate them around my home or property.

Frenchy
October 24th, 2006, 08:06 PM
In my opinion they are vermin and I wold not tolerate them around my home or property.

Exactly what I was meaning to say :yuck:

susieqt
October 24th, 2006, 09:40 PM
I think shooting the rat with a pellet gun probably wouldn't kill it, would it?

Prin
October 24th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Prin sometimes it worries me that you can reference to things I havent even thought about in 15+ years! lol:D

What? :shrug: I see a rat and a rosebush....:shrug:

:D

LM1313
October 25th, 2006, 12:18 AM
But he has to save Timothy Frisby. :sad:

I love you for knowing this. :highfive:

angeldogs
October 25th, 2006, 03:19 AM
You could alway's get a snake.they like rats.

jesse's mommy
October 25th, 2006, 07:32 AM
You could alway's get a snake.they like rats.

Are you serious? I can't deal with snakes. It's the worse thing to put in front of me. I won't even go into the reptile house at the zoo.

erykah1310
October 25th, 2006, 08:02 AM
So whats this rat eating??? Usually they only hang around this long if there is food for them. I have a problem with rats cause they would eat the chicken and rabbit food in the chicken coop, once i put them in bins the rat problems subsided. Still have the odd one but not as many.

Have you killed this "vermin" yet???

Prin
October 25th, 2006, 08:27 PM
I love you for knowing this. :highfive:

:o heh heh... :o At least my memory is good for something.:shrug:

Angies Man
October 26th, 2006, 12:58 AM
I live in the 'burbs or Reno, high desert so no rats here. Mice tho, and they come inside every fall--so it's time to peanut butter up the traps I guess.

When I lived on property in W. Washington State, I had problems with feral cats (terrible for destroying heating crossover tubes in Mobile Homes.) And skunks & possums, too.

For the cats, I used a baited live trap (a can of tuna makes good bait.) For the varmints, which would have included rats) I used a .22 with subsonic bullets. They have much more limited range than regular loads (so they don't go flying off for a mile and end up in the back of someone's head) will kill a rat but not a possum, porcupine, raccoon, or skunk.

Sub sonics were pretty good for keeping the deer out of my fruit trees, too.

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 08:15 AM
Ummm, my neighbors would call the cops if we shot a .22 in the backyard. :o Pellet gun is the most we can get away with in a subdivision.

erykah1310
October 26th, 2006, 08:49 AM
Ummm, my neighbors would call the cops if we shot a .22 in the backyard. :o Pellet gun is the most we can get away with in a subdivision.

lol, yeah i dont recomend firing off any firearm in a subdivision! lol

Snap traps are alright but most rats are swift enough to set the trap off and eat that yummies on it ( personal experience) Cat is really the best way to go. ( granted, as long as it s vaccinated )
I hope you get this straightened out soon.

HunterXHunter
October 26th, 2006, 10:15 AM
Kill them...

"The end justifies the means" -Unknown (actually, I just forgot and too lazy to look it up)

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 11:39 AM
But Nicodemus is working so hard to get the family moved. :(

I dunno, I was thinking about it and last year when we had the groundhog digging out under our shed and the neighbor said he was going to shoot it (I don't know how- we don't have too many guns up here), I was trying to do everything I could to keep it on our side of the fence. IMO, the means doesn't justify the ends... But I know to 99% of rational human beings it does.;)

Frenchy
October 26th, 2006, 11:52 AM
Yes but Prin , groundhog = cute, rat = :evil::yuck:

Donna S
October 26th, 2006, 11:52 AM
I have the same delemma here actually.. but just with mice.. they are inhabiting my kitchen. I have two cats but they are not mousers and are pretty useless with catching a mouse.. Tav will play with them occassionally and then let it go.. :frustrated:
I have put down a mix of live traps and snap traps.. I figure the snap traps are at least quick = NO suffering. When I catch a live mouse I walk it down the street to release it. Mice and Rats carry diseases and they poop and pee on everything I DON'T want them in my house.. :mad:
I am the first to stand up for animal rights but I dont want to get sick because of wild animals living in my house. You have to protect your family and pets. Poison is definatly a bad thing as you never know what will actually eat it. If a local cat or dog gets into the poison it would be a tragedy.
Check out Discovery channel this week (Jay & Natasia Show??? I am unsure of the name)... they are having a special on mouse traps.. you might even be able to find something on their website.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
October 26th, 2006, 11:53 AM
I know this sounds terrible but I am petrified of rodents especially rats . When we lived in Vancouver we were ride beside a big horse barn like 6 feet away and there was rats in the barn, I didnt think much of it - until I walked in my house one day with my 6 month old son and on the kitchen counter was a big black rat - I ran out of there so fast with and went next door to my moms house.

Then we started cleaning out all the cubboards and we could see droppings behind the cubboard and they had even eaten the the electical cord to the stove - I never saw any other rats - but I think there was probably mice too. Anyways we moved shortly after that thank god - Rodents as pets are okay but mass rodents just give me the hee bee jee bees. :eek: Although I wouldnt want one personally :o

erykah1310
October 26th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Our house was vacant before we moved in here ( for about 7 months) and for the first little while we could hear what sounded like bones rolling around in the atttic... I told Guy it was rats playing with the bones of a guy that was murdered down the road about 15 years ago and they had never found the body ( true story) I managed to freak him out so bad that when it came time to do something about the critters in the attic neither one of us would go up there ( apparenly I freaked myself out too ) It ended up being chipmunks....

And boy.. Do they do damage!!!

All critters who "break into" your house tend to cause alot of seriously dangerous damage ( chewing power cords and so on)
As sad as it is, but for your safety unfortunatly the rat has to die ( or be relocated ~fingers crossed for the little guy~)

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Well the good news is that we haven't seen any other "visitors" in the yard since that little guy. None have been in our house so that's good too. As for the little guy in the picture, he was chased into our neighbors yard and he "took care of him".

CyberKitten
October 26th, 2006, 12:59 PM
I would call Natural Resources or its equivilent in your province. I would never give it to a cat because of all the diseases it might give to the cat <Shudder> I know some ppl think cats love to catch mice - and many barn cats get protein from mice and moles but rats, ewwwwwwwwwww!!! (and my grandparents had a farm but rats were to be killed, there is a difference between mice and rats!!). Rats can also hurt a small cat.

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 01:11 PM
Alright because I feel like I'm repeating myself I'm going to summarize everything at once.

1. The one rat we found in our yard has been chased over to the neighbors house where he killed it (the dead rat is in the picture, but was alive when the picture was taken).
2. There have been no rats in our house.
3. We have not seen any more rats in the yard -- just the one that is now dead.
4. We do not have a cat and don't plan on getting one.
5. We do not live in Canada so there is no province.
6. I know if other rats come into our yard they need to be killed, however I refuse to be the one to do it.
7. If more rats come into the yard and need to be killed, I do not want to use poison because it gives them a slow painful death over days. I will not catch them in a bag and throw them in the lake to drown them. It will probably be done with a pellet gun or some kind of trap that would kill them immediately with no prolonged death.

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 01:13 PM
lol where did this come from:
5. We do not live in Canada so there is no province.
:D

jawert1
October 26th, 2006, 01:17 PM
The day a rat takes out Jesse, and/or you have to call Florida's Animal Control Services for one rat, well, call me cuz I wanna see that :). I'm glad your neighbors with the pellet gun handled the situation, I think they'll likely do the same in the future.

CyberKitten
October 26th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Sorry, I mentioned province - should have said jurisdiction and someone else (forget who now) recommended the cat idea. In short - so as not to have anything youi do not ethically believe in - call the equivilent of Natural Resources in yopur jurisdiction. In many states, the counties have a lot more power than they have in provinces here so it may well be someone in the county you have to call.

Good luck!!! (and sorry for any confusion)

Just noticed you're in DC and that is another kettle of fish, lol You may have to contact City Hall if you opt for that route. What about a trap if the rat is not too large. I mentioned the size because I saw a rat on my grandparents' farm that was larger than some of the kittens and small cats. (even tho many cats can well handle a rat, lol - but I'd worry about whate else the cat wil get from the rat besides protein!!)

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 01:20 PM
Jesse's mommy, have you tried shooting it with a pellet gun?

jawert1
October 26th, 2006, 01:26 PM
Actually CK, I'm the one in DC :) Not Jesse's Mommy who's in the sunny state of Florida (and I'm totally jealous!) :party:

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 01:27 PM
The one and only rat we saw is now DEAD.

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 03:14 PM
So does that mean you won't be trapping him?








:D

hazelrunpack
October 26th, 2006, 03:44 PM
Rat? What rat?!? Where!!!????!!!! just kidding :crazy:

happycats
October 26th, 2006, 05:58 PM
How big is this mouse you have? did you try trapping him? They have those humane traps now.


:D :angel:

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Is it a mouse? I thought it was a rat. Can you maybe post a pic of the critter?


:D

Frenchy
October 26th, 2006, 06:40 PM
The one and only rat we saw is now DEAD.

:rip: so,any ceremony for the little critter ? :D

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Honey sings after a long day of work and drinking many beers...

Ding dong the rat is dead,
the wicked rat,
the wicked rat,
Ding dong the wicked rat is dead.

Our neighbor, our next door neighbor,
took a shovel, a big ole shovel,
hit that rat, hit that rat in the head....

So my friends, there is no more rat. So please no more posts or honey is going to start singing again. :D


And no Frenchy, we didn't have a memorial for him. :rip:

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 07:17 PM
No more posts?

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Go ahead and post away. Honey just went outside in his boxer shorts and a samurai sword looking to kill the dead rat. :D

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 07:26 PM
:D So he's on a creative streak?

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 07:48 PM
:D So he's on a creative streak?

I hope so. :evil:

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 08:29 PM
lol I have no idea what that means.:D

jesse's mommy
October 26th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Creative after our fight, reer. :evil:

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 08:45 PM
lol oooh ok. I'm just glad he's making you laugh.;)

wdawson
October 26th, 2006, 08:50 PM
you took my advise and sent hubby out dressed like this then http://bestsmileys.com/dead/7.gif

:D

Donna S
October 26th, 2006, 10:42 PM
omg laughed so hard I almost snorted milk out of my nose... you guys are hilarious.. I just hope the wicked rat is dead!!:thumbs up
good luck.. and hopefully there will not be anymore rats in the future.. and ps I am really jealous of the person that lives in florida... I live in Canada.. and its freaking cold here.

Prin
October 26th, 2006, 10:44 PM
you took my advise and sent hubby out dressed like this then http://bestsmileys.com/dead/7.gif

:D

omg you're right! She did take your advice.:D That's so funny.

Angies Man
October 26th, 2006, 10:51 PM
I've heard that if you use Shake 'n' Bake they taste just like chicken!

:rip: Little Rat (He wasn't hurtin' nobody!)

Frenchy
October 27th, 2006, 11:14 AM
I've heard that if you use Shake 'n' Bake they taste just like chicken!



:eek: :yuck: :sick:

Prin
October 27th, 2006, 03:18 PM
I've heard that if you use Shake 'n' Bake they taste just like chicken!

Aren't you supposed to start that sentence with "mah momma sez"? :D
(i.e. the Waterboy? :o)

jawert1
October 27th, 2006, 04:38 PM
would that be original recipe or extra crispy?

:D