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New food again?

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Boo had had two cuts on his feets (back right and front left) that he wouldn't stop licking. Now finally, one healed and the other is almost gone. And then I catch him licking the front right. :frustrated: So I take a look and it's pretty red in the webbing and is pretty itchy. :( And Jemma's dandruff went away for about a week after I added the fish oil, and now it's back and all over her body.

I just can't win with this food stuff.:sad:

Skryker
October 20th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Oh, no. Not again. Well. know you were considering the Canidae before-part of why I switched from Performatrin was a sudden dandruff problem (which has cleared up on the Canidae. I'm feeding the chickeny one, though, and you'd need the lamb one.

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 05:20 PM
Yeah. That and Timberwolf are the only ones left before I run out of options.:(

Skryker
October 20th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Hope one of them works for you.

:D Hee hee, if Technodoll sees this, she'll point out how much easier it would be to feed RAW. :angel: That would be a pain with sensitivities and budget to manage.

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Hee hee, if Technodoll sees this, she'll point out how much easier it would be to feed RAW.

ha ha! well of course but... raw isn't a miracle cure-all, unfortunately... but yeah, it would probably fix all those niggly problems. prin, maybe someday when your have a freezer, the time and space and finances to go through with it... and don't mind handling raw meatsies... :D then you know i'll be here to help.

in the meantime, what if you added canned sardines & salmon to jemma's kibs... would that help with the dandruff?

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 06:36 PM
I'm not sure. I mean, I'm already giving high quality wild salmon oil. :shrug: Maybe I'll up the amount. But Boo's feet mean he definitely has to get off one of them, and I'm inclined to think it's the DVP (their stools smell like the DVP), but I really don't want either of them on evo alone. It's just too scary.

I emailed TO again, more desperately this time, to see if they can help my doggies with their itchies.:shrug: We'll see.:(

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 06:59 PM
:fingerscr for TO... :fingerscr

how about adding some pasta (egg noodles?) or rice or other home-cooked grain and maybe some canned green beans or something to the EVO to bulk up the food and reduce the overall amount of protein?... still nice calories, specially if you add olive oil or eggs?... :shrug:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:05 PM
It's not the protein, it's the phosphorus I'm worried about. I'd have to research low phos foods.:shrug:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:09 PM
I just don't get why the chicken evo can have normal phosphorus and Orijen can too, but not Evo RM.:frustrated:

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 07:10 PM
this seems pretty complete... http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000000000000121000000-w.html

:dog:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:11 PM
ooo thanks!

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 07:12 PM
go to tools / nutrient search tool and have fun :crazy:

Scott_B
October 20th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Wow, sorry to hear that Prin. I hope you get things sorted out :o

coppperbelle
October 20th, 2006, 07:17 PM
Unlike your dogs mine are doing very well on the DVP, granted I am feeding only DVP. I mix the venison with the fish formulas. Hunter is like a little puppy lately and so full of p.. and vinegar. Their coats are beautiful also. Their poops are a little bigger than they were on Solid Gold but hopefully that will work itself out.
What if you tried just feeding one brand of food for awhile?

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:20 PM
The problem is, I'm not happy with either. I'm scared of the Evo RM and the dvp is way too low protein, IMO, plus the dogs aren't too thrilled with it.:rolleyes:

meb999
October 20th, 2006, 07:37 PM
I'm still waiting for the miraculous 'hard-rabbit-type poo' I was promised with the EVO :D We're still in liquid massive poo-land.
I always thought the problem I had was with grain...but maybe it's a meat source that Buster can't digest...:shrug:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:41 PM
How much are you feeding?

meb999
October 20th, 2006, 07:50 PM
2 cups of EVO and 1/2 cup of Nutro Lamb/rice (i know it's not a great food, but I'm almost finished the bag...I'll be done in a few days, then I'll feed only EVO)

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 07:52 PM
aha! must be the nutro!!

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:52 PM
That's too much! (heh heh I watch too much price is right.)

Jemma is getting 1C Evo and 1C DVP and Boo is getting 1.5C DVP and 1C evo. (Boo is a slow 90lb doggy, and Jemma is a fast, hyper 60lb doggy, so I assume Buster is somewhere in between).:shrug:

I'd say cut to 1.5 C evo and .5 Nutro till you finish the nutro, then 2C evo after that.

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 07:54 PM
i wish my boy ate as little as yours :(

meb999
October 20th, 2006, 07:54 PM
okay....If that doesn't work, maybe I'll just stop feeding him, no food = no poo, right?! :eek:
*disclaimer : to anyone reading this...it's a joke. I would never stop feeding my dog nor do I encourage others to stop feeding their dogs!!*

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 07:55 PM
lol if he did, he'd be a husky instead of a bear.:D

meb999
October 20th, 2006, 07:56 PM
actually, Buster is an extra-hyper 58 pound boy....so he'd be more like Jemma. He's not a big boy, but he's got alot of energy!

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 08:03 PM
yah dem bears... they sure eat a lot :(

hey marie-eve, if it's any consolation... after every kibble meal, dakotah has stinky wet poops too... he won't eat the evo rm straight up so we mix it with the dry merricks, which he goes bananas over, but it doesn't agree with him... peeeeyuuuujesus!

hazelrunpack
October 20th, 2006, 08:09 PM
then I catch him licking the front right. :frustrated: So I take a look and it's pretty red in the webbing and is pretty itchy. :(
Has Boo been in any brush lately? We get irritations in the webbing all the time, but it's mechanical, not allergic, in nature. Running through grass can cause abrasions, too. :fingerscr Maybe it's not a food allergy?

rainbow
October 20th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Prin, why don't you email Peter at Orijen (Champion Foods) and ask him if/when Orijen will be available in QC? You'll get an answer alot faster than with TO. ;)

coppperbelle
October 20th, 2006, 09:04 PM
The problem is, I'm not happy with either. I'm scared of the Evo RM and the dvp is way too low protein, IMO, plus the dogs aren't too thrilled with it.:rolleyes:

I agree that it is lower protein. I am adding stuff so that my dogs get more. Until I can find a better food this is what I plan to do. My dogs love the DVP but there are very few foods that they have ever turned their noses up to. In fact now that I think of it they have never turned their noses up to anything.

By only giving them one brand of food for a few weeks you would be able to tell if that was the problem. I know it is not ideal but at least you could identify the cause of the itching, eventually.

The Evo scares me. I know many dogs do well on it but I have heard some scary stories and I am not willing to risk it as long as I can find other kibbles for them to eat that are half decent.

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Prin, why don't you email Peter at Orijen (Champion Foods) and ask him if/when Orijen will be available in QC? You'll get an answer alot faster than with TO. ;)
The orijen has chicken in it. :rolleyes:

I might end up having to work on Jems and Boobs separately. :rolleyes: For Boo maybe the Go Natural salmon one might work, and for Jemma, who knows! It can't be grainy, but it can have chicken in it... Hey, she might be ok on the orijen... hmm...

If bleddy TO would ever get back to me... Things would be decided by now.:(

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Has Boo been in any brush lately? We get irritations in the webbing all the time, but it's mechanical, not allergic, in nature. Running through grass can cause abrasions, too. :fingerscr Maybe it's not a food allergy?
Oh, no, not really. Nothing too "off-road" lately.:shrug: And it's weird because it's the top of the web, not the underside.:confused:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 09:45 PM
How come I can never find the go natural salmon on the internet?!:frustrated:

hazelrunpack
October 20th, 2006, 09:50 PM
Oh, no, not really. Nothing too "off-road" lately.:shrug: And it's weird because it's the top of the web, not the underside.:confused:

We'll usually see small abrasions on the front 'edge' of the webbing...but sometimes, if it's from long grass, for example, it'll 'wrap' to the top. There's usually some irritation between the pads and on the underside of the webbing, though, so that's probably not Boo's problem.

Ah well... It was a thought, anyway...

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 09:51 PM
K, phoenix posted the ingredients in the other thread (thanks phoenix!:)).. But it's so oaty.:( And has citric acid.. Menadione has been removed already, I believe.
Ingredients:

Salmon Meal, Salmon, Oatmeal, Whole Oats, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols [Vitamin E], Citric Acid [Vitamin C] and Rosemary extract), Oat Fiber, Inulin (FOS), Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Yeast Culture, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), dl Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, **Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, **Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, **Manganese Proteinate, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulphate Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12.
** These items are chelated minerals.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein - (min) - 22.00%
Crude Fat - (min) - 12.00%
Crude Fiber - (max) - 3.80%
Moisture - (min) - 10.00%
Omega 6 Fatty Acids - 2.75%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids - 0.30%
Vitamin E - (min) - 200 IU/kg:yell:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 09:52 PM
Ah well... It was a thought, anyway...Thanks for that though. Even if it might not be Boo, I'm still glad you suggested it.:)

hazelrunpack
October 20th, 2006, 09:53 PM
How come I can never find the go natural salmon on the internet?!:frustrated:

Probably because it's hard to type with fins, so they don't use the internet unless it's an emergency...

Sorry, Prin, I couldn't resist... all those ticks made me a little :crazy:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 09:57 PM
hee hee.. :D

rainbow
October 20th, 2006, 10:46 PM
The orijen has chicken in it. :rolleyes:

I might end up having to work on Jems and Boobs separately. :rolleyes: For Boo maybe the Go Natural salmon one might work, and for Jemma, who knows! It can't be grainy, but it can have chicken in it... Hey, she might be ok on the orijen... hmm...

If bleddy TO would ever get back to me... Things would be decided by now.:(

Whoops, I forgot about the chicken. :o

If I were you ( :D ) I would contact Peter and ask him if he is/will consider making a RM Orijen. You know his customer service is sooo much better than TO's. And, if TO was finally available in QC what if they eventually cheapened their food....you'd never get a reply from them. The food change could just happen too because IMO if a company provides such lousy customer service they don't have a consience. ;)

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 10:49 PM
I just read "somewhere else" that somebody got a back of TO kibble and inside the bag was the wrong kibble. :eek:

What about canned? :o

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 10:57 PM
I'm wondering because Evo RM is 487 KCals/Cup, and their canned food (for rabbit) is 489 KCals/13.2 oz. can... And the cans I can get for about $2.30 each. So one cup + one can... And the can might be easier on the kidneys and more balanced with the phosphorus (they're supposed to contain the whole animal proportions...)...

My Dog, my doggies would be in heaven.

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 11:12 PM
$2.30 a can for EVO rabbit?? :eek: holy heck it's $3.29 at my local petstore :mad: u;m... where, please? i may have to go stock up... the beanies have never had rabbit, i just can't afford it :o

could boo eat a turkey-based kibble, in theory?

ps: why does my big lug need 2500 cals/day so his ribs don't show? grrrrrrr being eaten out of house and home here... help!

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 11:16 PM
I don't think he could. He pucked on duck, too. :shrug: :yell:

Do you think it's a good idea though? Half Evo RM and half canned rabbit or venison?

Hey have you checked your guy's thyroid? Maybe he's hyper.:shrug:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Oh and http://canada411.yellowpages.ca/business/2%2C1/2667570.html?what=nutriville&where=laval&how=onlyonefound&pstype=si

Might be $2.60 a can but definitely under $3.00.

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 11:24 PM
See, this is what bugs me- the Innova Large Breed says this:
Precisely controlled levels of calcium to phosphorus
And they're 0.9% and 0.7% respectively. So how can they justify the 2.31% and 1.34% in Evo RM?!

technodoll
October 20th, 2006, 11:45 PM
I don't think he could. He pucked on duck, too.

hockey pucked? :D sorry i couldn't resist... awe poor boo. i dunno why "grain free" kibbles are so hard to balance right.... they are trying to emulate raw but are ending up with un-natural formula compositions... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"... ie, leave raw alone! LOL

hey, have you thought of adding a bit of calcium to the food, to balance out the phosporus?? say 2/3 of dry, 1/3 of canned, and then some powdered eggshells sprinkled in there? can they tolerate raw eggs (as a binder for the food)? :confused:

i talked to dakotah's breeder and there is zero history of thyroid problems in his bloodlines, she thinks it's his young age, metabolism and levels of exercise that make him need so many calories... he's in super health, just needs alot of food, like those guys who can eat buckets of chicken and then bags of chips and washed down with soda every day and never gain an ounce :frustrated:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 11:47 PM
hey, have you thought of adding a bit of calcium to the food, to balance out the phosporus?? say 2/3 of dry, 1/3 of canned, and then some powdered eggshells sprinkled in there? can they tolerate raw eggs (as a binder for the food)? No, the calcium is even higher...

The phos is 1.34% and the calcium is 2.31%. :eek:

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 11:50 PM
I just checked and the regular evo is way high too...
Calcium 2.85 %
Phosphorous 1.50 %
:rolleyes:

Maybe the water in the canned will flush out all the Ca and P? I guess the only upside is that most of it is from natural sources and not mineral add-ons.:shrug: (Unless they're dumb enough to add more in there anyway.. I so hope not)

Prin
October 20th, 2006, 11:56 PM
Sorry, I have ADD tonight...

Maybe when Dakotah stops growing, he'll have less of a metabolic energy requirement.

If you ever have extra cash lying around, I'd get the blood test anyway. Hyperthyroid can be non-genetic too (like me!). The immune system can just decide to attack it out of nowhere and depending on the type of antibodies, it might cause the thyroid to become overactive by immitating thyroid stimulating hormone (like me!). :shrug:

No history of diabetes either, eh?

rainbow
October 21st, 2006, 12:10 AM
See, this is what bugs me- the Innova Large Breed says this:

And they're 0.9% and 0.7% respectively. So how can they justify the 2.31% and 1.34% in Evo RM?!


Why don't you email them? They're pretty good with answering quickly. ;)

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 12:12 AM
I did, and then I realized as I was writing, that I had already emailed them about a month ago, and they never replied.:D

rainbow
October 21st, 2006, 01:02 AM
Really :eek: I've always had a response from them within three days.

erykah1310
October 21st, 2006, 04:45 PM
Prin why are you afraid of EVO???

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 05:48 PM
The phosphorus and calcium levels are way higher than most other foods, and I've heard stories of dogs getting organ issues on Evo. They're just stories, and who knows if they're true, but I'm still wary, even without them.

If they say, like I said above, that the ideal Ca/P balance is 0.9/0.7%, then how can they justify it being so much higher in evo? And what does the difference do to my dog?

mafiaprincess
October 21st, 2006, 07:13 PM
That's why I'm feedign the rest of the evo rm, then the rest of the dvp and seeign if her ear scratched bum licks get better...
Might go back to wellness whitefish till I get something good out of TO.

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think I might stick with the evo and give canned too. Wouldn't that help? I mean, wouldn't the extra water help flush out the kidneys a bit more?:o

rainbow
October 21st, 2006, 07:42 PM
I would email Innova back again and ask them why it's so much higher in the EVO than the regular. :shrug:

mafiaprincess
October 21st, 2006, 08:20 PM
Would it actually be more water though? I've given cider nasty high energy nutro on occasion when he weight has dropped weirdly low and it looks like I don't feed her.. She just starts to drink less..

Wouldn't it then sorta even out and not necessarily fix the balance?

rainbow
October 21st, 2006, 08:24 PM
I don't think the canned would give them enough extra water. Will they eat it if you mix in more water and make it like a slurry? :shrug:

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 08:41 PM
Well, right now with the DVP with citric acid, I can't add water... Hey, is that a risk? Like with them drinking more because of the fish oil (:fingerscr), and eating DVP with citric acid, are they more likely to get bloat? :eek:

Hmmm... Yeah, the water thing is useless...

See, the other thing is the canned rabbit has a lot of salt, so maybe that will make them drink even more?
Canned Rabbit: http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271395%27%5D

I just thought the canned would be more properly balanced than the DVP, so mixing half and half would be better than evo RM alone.

Evo RM: http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271404%27%5D

This is so difficult, eh?:rolleyes:

mafiaprincess
October 21st, 2006, 08:47 PM
It is.. Mix multiple foods cause you hate them all.. you get a possible allergy.. Cut back to one.. you hate it so you whine till the food is all gone..

Need a new food then, and have to pick something I'm not thrilled with cause what I'd like to try I can't get.

:yell: I didn't appreciate WK enough when it wasn't sketch.. The ease of just feeding it.. I then wanted to add in a little barking.. make it a lil more complicated... I was a fool.

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 08:52 PM
I just know that my doggies would love to eat rabbit... Especially Boo. He licks his lips when he sees rabbits. I think he ate them before.:o

I think I'll wait till Monday and call Innova, rather than start writing email #3...

After that, I have no idea.

I just don't like the DVP enough to feed it alone, and the only thing that sucks about the Evo RM is the calcium and phosphorus. :rolleyes: The ingredients are good, but I'm not sure if they'd have more allergens for Boo than the DVP. Then again, Boo's not licking today. And I don't like the citric acid in the DVP, especially for Boo. He is the ultimate deep chested dog.

:frustrated: :confused: :frustrated:

rainbow
October 21st, 2006, 09:07 PM
I just had a thought. Email Go Natural (Michelle is really good about answering) and ask them about the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the new food they are going to launch. Tell them the amounts in EVO RM and your concerns. If their's is going to have high amounts and they agree with you maybe they'll have time to tweak it. :shrug:

mafiaprincess
October 21st, 2006, 09:08 PM
Well, over here the evo rm on its own seems to be doing something good.. ear scratching is down to a minimum, and she cleans her bum and crotch now but not as obsessively as before and it's only been a few days. Maybe it's a chicken intolerance to the NV..

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 09:11 PM
I just had a thought. Email Go Natural (Michelle is really good about answering) and ask them about the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the new food they are going to launch. Tell them the amounts in EVO RM and your concerns. If their's is going to have high amounts and they agree with you maybe they'll have time to tweak it. :shrug:
Maybe eh? I just am not too impressed with Go Natural's other foods really... Then again, the problem is too many grains, so maybe they'll fix that with a no grain food.:shrug:

Prin
October 21st, 2006, 09:11 PM
Well, over here the evo rm on its own seems to be doing something good.. ear scratching is down to a minimum, and she cleans her bum and crotch now but not as obsessively as before and it's only been a few days. Maybe it's a chicken intolerance to the NV..
Yeah, my doggies aren't hungry all the time anymore. :thumbs up

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 04:33 PM
:yell: Innova customer service on the phone was so unhelpful. :yell:
"Hi. I was wondering why the website says the Innova Large Breed formula has the "optimum" calcium and phosphorus balance and the Evo RM's calcium and phos are much much higher. Are the high levels really safe for dogs?"
"Um. The Innova and Evo are formulated differently- they're different foods- so the balance is different."
"yeah, but doesn't the higher level affect the kidneys and other organs?"
"No."
"It's just that I've heard horror stories about kidney failure and I want to be sure that it's safe for my dogs."
"Yes it is. How old is your puppy?"
"I don't have a puppy. Both of my dogs are 5."
"Oh, well, it's fine. They're formulated by nutritionists and veterinarians and we test them before putting them on the market."
"Are long term studies done? How long are the feeding trials? Six months?"
"No they're about two years."

And there wasn't much after that... Needless to say, I'm not reassured.:(

(it really bothered me that she thought I had puppies and still pushed the food- I KNOW this food isn't appropriate for growing dogs.:mad: )

rainbow
October 23rd, 2006, 06:09 PM
When I get some time this week I'll try emailing them. I'll tell them I'm currently feeding Innova regular and thinking of switching to EVO but have concerns about the calcium/phosphorous content.

Scott_B
October 23rd, 2006, 06:36 PM
Thats the problem with any long term studies. With a new product, you cant really expect to test it for 10-15 years before releasing it. A 2 year study likely on various ages of dogs is about as far as it gets with initial testing.

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 06:37 PM
prin, could boo do the Nature's Variety Wild Alaskan Salmon Meal & Brown Rice Medley? it has chicken liver flavor though... would that cause trouble?

Healthy, Natural Ingredients
Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Barley, Canola Oil, Pumpkinseeds, Flaxseed Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Chicken Liver Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Chicken Liver, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Apples, Carrots, Peas, Chicken Eggs, Cottage Cheese, Freeze Dried Chicken, Freeze Dried Turkey, Freeze Dried Turkey Liver, Freeze Dried Turkey Hearts, Ground Chicken Bone, Butternut Squash, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Honey, Apple Cider Vinegar, Blueberries, Parsley, Salmon Oil, Citric Acid, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract, Alfalfa Sprouts, Olive Oil, Clove, Duck Eggs, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Sage

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 26.0%
Crude Fat (min) 14.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.5%
Moisture (max) 10.0%


Also, I got some Raw Instinct samples and Dakotah went nuts for it... he doesn't like the Evo RM at all. sigh. I have a huge bag to go through... and i can't feed him too much kibble lately, it gives him horrendous, atrocious gas! i started added some digestive enzymes to his kibble meals and it helps though. it all started when i gave him the Merrick's dry... which he loves, of course :yell:

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 07:33 PM
Thats the problem with any long term studies. With a new product, you cant really expect to test it for 10-15 years before releasing it. A 2 year study likely on various ages of dogs is about as far as it gets with initial testing.

Yeah, I know. Usually they test for 6 months or so before putting a food on the market, so at least 2 years is a step forward. If they really wanted to be good about it, they would ask feeders to register (with some benefit) and survey them all every year about their experiences with the food.


I'm not sure about the chicken liver. I'm pretty sure he can't eat it but it's such a long process back and forth to find out. Like I'll give it to him a few days and then after about a week, he might throw up once. So I'll chalk it up to him eating something funny outside. And then after another week, he'll puke again. And then a couple days after that, he'll puke all night continuously and start the rabid diarrhea, and then it's too late. Even with antibiotics and anti-nausea drugs, he stays sensitive for months afterward. :sad:

Rainbow, that's a good angle. That way, they won't be encouraging you to move to their brand.:)

Lissa
October 23rd, 2006, 08:07 PM
If their calcium level is high enough to balance out the extra phosphorous I don't think its something to be overally worried about.
I think the ratio for dogs is that the calcium:phosphorous ratio should be from 1:1 - 2:1.
I personally think 1.50% calcium is a good number to aim for and I do think less than 1% is too low (if I remember correctly, Innova large breed formula is only 0.90%) so that wouldn't be ideal for me either.

If its something you are really worried about and Boo doesn't do well on TO, why not just get some bloodwork done to check that the kidneys are still functioning and the BUN level's are normal (but be aware that most vets will "ignore" abnormalities within range until they are abnormally out of range so you need to be clear that you need precision LOL)

I think your concern is valid, especially because the ash content is so high as well - it all means extra work for the kidneys. But if Boo does well on EVO RM alone, I wouldn't worry about it. I think we need to be educated enough to make the best choices but I don't think we have the liberty of stressing over every tiny ingredient if our dog's are healthy (otherwise I don't think we'd be able to feed any kibble!):D

Lissa
October 23rd, 2006, 08:09 PM
Why is there a tongue face in my post? It should NOT be there:o

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 08:10 PM
Thanks Lissa.

I personally think 1.50% calcium is a good number to aim for and I do think less than 1% is too low (if I remember correctly, the large breed formula is only 0.90%)I think large breeds need less calcium than smaller breeds, especially puppies. Calcium levels for large breed puppies should be around 0.8% if I'm remembering properly.

You're right about the ratio though- that's a relief!
http://www.purina.ca/dogs/nutrition.asp?article=18

meb999
October 23rd, 2006, 08:18 PM
Why is there a tongue face in my post? It should NOT be there:o

you probably hit the : button before your p (the p in front of phosphorous)

: and a p make a :p

Lissa
October 23rd, 2006, 08:30 PM
:o OOPS, wasn't sure what set that off!:o

I hope you find something that works for Boo!:grouphug:

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 08:35 PM
that is reassuring for all of us feeding a grainless kibble! thanks lissa! :p

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 08:40 PM
Amen sista! I feel much better now. Lissa, you're in our food company when me and rainbow win the lottery (if you want to be).

Lissa
October 23rd, 2006, 08:54 PM
YAY!!!! I'm sure we wouldn't have trouble coming up with the bestest kibble ever:cool:

If I win the lottery I'll have to do a line of kibble (with you and Rainbow) and a line of raw with techno LOL.... Now to buy the winning ticket!

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 08:56 PM
fer sure! hey we can all be vested in both "lines" you know... nutrition is nutrition! :thumbs up lotto 6/49, be kind please... :pray:

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 09:14 PM
Yeah, for sure we'd have a raw line. :)

I've been thinking about it and what if instead of grains, we dry and grind veggies, and to hold it all together, we use eggs... Don't eggs hold stuff together?:o

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 09:25 PM
yes! eggs hold stuff together very well! i'm thinking meatloaf... hmmm! :rolleyes:

Lissa
October 23rd, 2006, 10:04 PM
I've been thinking about it and what if instead of grains, we dry and grind veggies, and to hold it all together, we use eggs... Don't eggs hold stuff together?:o

Excellent idea...it would be amazing to have a zero grain formula without the risks of too much meat by compensating with nutritious and digestible veggies/fruits! In my experience (when eventing dog treat recipes) banana's, apple sauce and eggs all seem to help stick things together:crazy:
Even though raw and homecooked are becoming more popular, I think convenience is still the biggest concern...If only there were to make a convenient food without too many preservatives or losing too much goodness in the heating process...

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 10:08 PM
Exactly! If we could really feed raw in a bag, we'd be set.:)

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 10:12 PM
raw in a bag exists... it's just horrendously expensive :eek: and so are dehydrated diets! only solution not to break the bank is to make your own... but that defeats the convenience factor, eh? LOL!

crikey, we need to put our heads together now... magic formula... magic formula.... :D

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 10:24 PM
No, no, it wouldn't be that expensive because we'd do it right.;)

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 10:59 PM
must make friends with a nice farmer, yeah! :thumbs up

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 11:01 PM
Or be the farmer...:eek:

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 11:03 PM
i couldn't do that part of the operation.... not a morning person, and i'd name all the beasties and could never send them off for slaughter. :o is it ok if i hide behind the books? i'm pretty good at package design, marketing, finances... LOL! :D

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 11:04 PM
Yeah, we'd have a problem with the slaughtering...:o But we'd have the most accurate and complete accounting ever.:D

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 11:06 PM
and kick@ss customer service!! :thumbs up

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 11:09 PM
oh yeah. Definitely. 24 hour customer service. :) And good wages and benefits for the factory workers, as well as a doggy daycare for employees' dogs (and maybe a kiddie one depending on demand ;)). And extensive food donations to approved rescues. And our ads will be:
"If that food is really the best for your dog, why are all the ingredients chemicals?" ;)

oooo and "the veggies and meats ON the bag are actually IN the bag".

rainbow
October 23rd, 2006, 11:12 PM
I think we should just buy the meat from organic farmers. ;)

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 11:15 PM
Yeah, but they'd better give us a deal...;)

rainbow
October 23rd, 2006, 11:49 PM
Well, I'm sure when they seen how good our dog food would be, they definitely would. :D

technodoll
October 24th, 2006, 09:17 AM
oooo and "the veggies and meats ON the bag are actually IN the bag".

i think "Beneful" already stole that idea.... look at all those big ears of corn!! and not just the kernels go in there btw... it's the whole ear, cob and all! oh and carrots, peas, wheat... yummy... notice how small the little cubes of beef are... but that's false advertising, there is no meat in there ;)

http://www.purina.nl/countries/images/ho/Beneful.jpg

meb999
October 24th, 2006, 01:37 PM
But we'd have the most accurate and complete accounting ever.:D

If you need someone to incorporate you...you've got a lawyer at your service :D (even though I hate corporate law :o )

Prin
October 24th, 2006, 02:18 PM
i think "Beneful" already stole that idea....
No, they didn't steal the idea! They have the stuff ON the bag but not IN the bag.:D

Meb you'll have to notarize the purchase of the factory and office... ;)

Scott_B
October 24th, 2006, 02:32 PM
I can supply any fish :D

rainbow
October 24th, 2006, 11:35 PM
We'd have one great company if we just has some money. :D