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Cesar Milan - interesting article

LL1
October 17th, 2006, 07:26 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL&

meb999
October 17th, 2006, 08:04 PM
thanks for posting....I'll have to print it out for my bf (who thinks Ceasar is God's gift to dogs!!) --- it's a good thing I'M the one who does all the dog training!

ByronsMum
October 17th, 2006, 09:33 PM
It is true. I have watched Cesar putting a prong collar on a dog and using his signature "flip of the wrist"!! OUCH!! I mean, if you were a dog and you had this medieval torture device dug into your neck, wouldn't YOU stop doing whatever you were doing?! :eek: His methods really are basically about instilling fear into your dog. Yes, I agree with the fact that a dog needs to learn its place in the family hierarchy, but that does not mean that he/she needs to fear you!

However, I do agree with Cesar's premise that your dog will react to your body language, and that he/she will respond to whatever "energy" you send out. Therefore it is important to always send out positive energy when training your pet.

Hubby and I watched Ian Dunbar's Sirius Puppy Training video (borrowed it from the vet's office) and just by applying his methods to a few things, Byron has greatly improved with heeding commands. Mind you, he still has a ways to go to end up behaving like some of the "advanced class" dogs (some of whom didn't even NEED a verbal command, just a hand gesture! :eek: ) But still, while Cesar Millan may be entertaining to watch, I would be very wary of applying his methods to train any dog.

And that is my two cents... :)

rainbow
October 17th, 2006, 09:34 PM
When I first read your title I thought "Oh no, not another person that thinks the Dog Whisperer is the greatest trainer ever." :rolleyes: Thanks for posting and I agree 100% with the article. :thumbs up

Prin
October 17th, 2006, 09:37 PM
When I first read your title I thought "Oh no, not another person that thinks the Dog Whisperer is the greatest trainer ever." :rolleyes: Thanks for posting and I agree 100% with the article. :thumbs up
hee hee me too! I was all, "Oh, no, not again."

LM1313
October 18th, 2006, 02:16 AM
Our animal control people send out a newsletter to everyone with a dog/cat license and their main article last time was what a crappy trainer Cesar was and how people should ignore him and go to an obedience class instead. ;)

"Training," says Millan, "only teaches the dogs how to obey commands -- sit, roll over -- it does not have anything to do with dog psychology."

In his recent best-seller, "Cesar's Way," Millan writes that there are only two positions in a relationship, leader or follower. "I work with dogs all the time that are trained but not balanced."

I . . . don't understand what this means. If a dog is trained and obeying the commands, what's the problem?

coppperbelle
October 18th, 2006, 06:18 AM
[QUOTE=ByronsMum][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"]It is true. I have watched Cesar putting a prong collar on a dog and using his signature "flip of the wrist"!! OUCH!! I mean, if you were a dog and you had this medieval torture device dug into your neck, wouldn't YOU stop doing whatever you were doing?! :eek: His methods really are basically about instilling fear into your dog. Yes, I agree with the fact that a dog needs to learn its place in the family hierarchy, but that does not mean that he/she needs to fear you!

I use those medieval torture devices on my dogs. If you have ever used one correctly you would know that they are not torture devices.

happycats
October 18th, 2006, 06:20 AM
Despite what many here think, I still believe Cesar has saved MANY dogs from being put down, gased, dumped, or life in a cage. His ways may not be the gentlest, but I believe his intentions are good.

LM1313, I think he means a dog has to respect you, if you want complete control. But if you train by, lets say maybe food motivation, your dog will not necessarily respect, and only does it for the food. Therefore you don't have control of your dog.

ByronsMum
October 18th, 2006, 06:35 AM
I use those medieval torture devices on my dogs. If you have ever used one correctly you would know that they are not torture devices.

Copperbelle, it was just my opinion...different strokes for different folks. Sorry if it offended.

coppperbelle
October 18th, 2006, 07:17 AM
[QUOTE=happycats]Despite what many here think, I still believe Cesar has saved MANY dogs from being put down, gased, dumped, or life in a cage. His ways may not be the gentlest, but I believe his intentions are good.

I agree completely. Those that do not support Cesar's methods have not had experience with a "bad" dog IMO. When I say "bad" I don't mean a dog that is pooping on the living room couch, I mean a dog that has been aggressive or whose behavior is so bad that it will be put down or dumped in a shelter. While he may be instilling fear (I call it respect) he is changing these dogs lives so that they can live normal ones. I am in no way condoning abuse however if my dog needs to learn to walk behind me and go out the door after me I don't think there is any harm in that. I don't think my life should be controlled by what my dog wants. Sure there are other methods of training. One lady I heard from was told to ignore her dog for two weeks after he bit her. Yup, that dog is going to know why he is being ignored. In the meantime he will be so starved for attention he will start other behaviors like destroying things in the house, pooping and peeing. Guess where he will end up?

coppperbelle
October 18th, 2006, 07:23 AM
Copperbelle, it was just my opinion...different strokes for different folks. Sorry if it offended.

I would never be offended by a comment such as you made. I have done my research and know what I am talking about. I also take classes where I have been instructed on the correct use of the collar.
For anyone who has trouble walking a dog please do not be discouraged by the way they look. If used correctly they can be a lifesaver when it is slippery outside or when another dog approaches you as you walk.

ByronsMum
October 18th, 2006, 07:42 AM
Despite what many here think, I still believe Cesar has saved MANY dogs from being put down, gased, dumped, or life in a cage. His ways may not be the gentlest, but I believe his intentions are good.

No doubt about that! In that sense, I think that he is letting viewers know that all dogs can be trained/rehabilitated to coexist peacefully with their families.
I do think, however, that too many people see the show as a “training video” and incorrectly use his methods. Example: Although I personally do not agree with it, Cesar uses the prong collar on occasion to correct some of the dogs. He is obviously trained in its use. People who are not, but see its effectiveness when Cesar uses it, are lured into thinking that it is the miracle cure for their “bad dog”. They then go and use it incorrectly and end up severely hurting their pet. My vet has told me a number of stories about irresponsible or uneducated dog owners who leave the prong collar on all the time throughout the dog’s life and then have to go and have it surgically removed from the dog’s neck.
As copperbelle has done, I believe that before dog owners use any training methods, they should research their choices and pick the one that suits them best.

LL1
October 18th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Have to disagree with that.
Those that do not support Cesar's methods have not had experience with a "bad" dog IMO.

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 08:25 AM
[QUOTE=happycats]One lady I heard from was told to ignore her dog for two weeks after he bit her. Yup, that dog is going to know why he is being ignored.

This is interesting. I'm not sure if it matters if the dog knew what it was being ignored for--just that it knew it was ostracized. We had a dog that began biting us (and just us--he was too timid to go after anyone else) at the age of 3. We had a fenced yard, no kids, and little company so we were willing to try to overcome the problem, even though it turned out to be a hereditary trait. After talking to uncountable 'experts' who all told us have him put down, we had a sudden family emergency and had to leave town for a week. We boarded the dog at the vet--because he'd been having aggression issues, he got the minimum necessary human contact only: feeding, exercise on a leash, but no canine or human contact beyond that.

Amazingly, when we got home, he was well-behaved, waited for us to go through the door first, listened well, and most importantly, no more biting! He never forgot the lesson and lived with us happily for another 7 1/2 years before dying of natural causes. I'm not saying there weren't minor relapses but the biting stopped totally. Dogs are so social and so pack-oriented--sometimes a little ostracism, regardless of intent, can work wonders on a dog's psyche.

So that advice was maybe not as bad as it seemed.

I don't want to be construed as recommending the cold-shoulder treatment for a well-adjusted dog, but in some agression cases, it might actually be beneficial to the dog (and his family). I'd never attempt to use the technique on a dog by myself without the advice and supervision of a qualified behaviorist.

happycats
October 18th, 2006, 08:50 AM
ummmmmmm I didn't post that.

dtbmnec
October 18th, 2006, 09:21 AM
ummmmmmm I didn't post that.

it says "quote=copperbelle" up at the top....lol....quoting issues perhaps?

I can't say I've seen his show and the only thing I have ever heard about him is from this forum....I haven't owned a dog either...so I'm gonna go back to lurking :p

Megan

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 10:30 AM
ummmmmmm I didn't post that.

You sure didn't... Hmmmm.... I've been having numerous network difficulties today...maybe some stray bits loose in here somewhere? :D Sorry, happycats and copperbelle....it was quotes gone wild! :crazy:

happycats
October 18th, 2006, 10:39 AM
:D no problem.

coppperbelle
October 18th, 2006, 11:48 AM
[QUOTE=coppperbelle]

This is interesting. I'm not sure if it matters if the dog knew what it was being ignored for--just that it knew it was ostracized. We had a dog that began biting us (and just us--he was too timid to go after anyone else) at the age of 3. We had a fenced yard, no kids, and little company so we were willing to try to overcome the problem, even though it turned out to be a hereditary trait. After talking to uncountable 'experts' who all told us have him put down, we had a sudden family emergency and had to leave town for a week. We boarded the dog at the vet--because he'd been having aggression issues, he got the minimum necessary human contact only: feeding, exercise on a leash, but no canine or human contact beyond that.

Amazingly, when we got home, he was well-behaved, waited for us to go through the door first, listened well, and most importantly, no more biting! He never forgot the lesson and lived with us happily for another 7 1/2 years before dying of natural causes. I'm not saying there weren't minor relapses but the biting stopped totally. Dogs are so social and so pack-oriented--sometimes a little ostracism, regardless of intent, can work wonders on a dog's psyche.

So that advice was maybe not as bad as it seemed.

I don't want to be construed as recommending the cold-shoulder treatment for a well-adjusted dog, but in some agression cases, it might actually be beneficial to the dog (and his family). I'd never attempt to use the technique on a dog by myself without the advice and supervision of a qualified behaviorist.


Maybe someone at the vets office where he was boarded taught him what he was doing was wrong and he finally got the picture. This is not to say that you were doing anything wrong only that maybe a different approach worked with him.

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 12:46 PM
Maybe someone at the vets office where he was boarded taught him what he was doing was wrong and he finally got the picture. This is not to say that you were doing anything wrong only that maybe a different approach worked with him.

We thought of that, too. They claimed no--that they'd just fed him, exercised him on leash, and otherwise left him alone.

I think that as grateful as he was to be back with the pack, he was willing to be a bit more subordinate. A few years later we adopted a springer with a really well-adjusted alpha personality and she was a big help keeping him in line, too. She was much quicker to pick up on the start of one of his 'episodes' than we were.

His litter was the first to show the aggression problem, but we heard later that a pup in a closely related litter a short time later had been put down at the age of just 5 months due to aggression problems! The breeder did the responsible thing and shut himself down--aggression is a very tough thing to breed out--unfortunately so much easier for an unscrupulous breeder to breed in...

meb999
October 18th, 2006, 12:52 PM
I think Ceasar Milan's methods are like alot of things in life, not 100% good or 100% bad. You can't say he's never done anything right, and you can't say he's never done anything wrong.

The reason I dislike him, is I find he doesn't explain in which situations his methods should be used. Some of the things he does, MIGHT be affective with an agressive dog, but will seriously harm a submissive dog (you could wind up with trust issues that will NEVER go away....).
Just like I don't think 'calming signals' by Tuurid Rugas would be effective with an agressive dog, but they work wonders on a scared, stressed-out dog.

I think alot of people follow Ceasars advice to a tee because he's famous, and he's 'hollywood'.

ByronsMum
October 18th, 2006, 01:48 PM
I think alot of people follow Ceasars advice to a tee because he's famous, and he's 'hollywood'.

I agree with you there, meb.

Trinitie
October 18th, 2006, 03:55 PM
As with all forms of training, this one too should be taken with a grain of salt to a certain degree.

Cesar Milan uses some very basic techniques, ones that I too use. In the wrong hands, however, Cesar's training can, and probably will, lead to more dog-human confrontations.

Just the other day I saw the show where he rescued 3 Katrina dogs, all of which were NOT fixed (one female and two males). He introduced them into his pack. IMO - bad move! Two intact males with one intact female is just waiting for trouble.

We'll just have to wait and see how long his celebrity lasts.

T

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Those that do not support Cesar's methods have not had experience with a "bad" dog IMO. When I say "bad" I don't mean a dog that is pooping on the living room couch, I mean a dog that has been aggressive or whose behavior is so bad that it will be put down or dumped in a shelter.Have to disagree with that.
Me too. I grew up with aggressive dogs and I didn't need to kick them when they weren't looking to get them to fall in line. Nor did I need to drag them out from under things when they were afraid.

There are trainers who are more forceful than just ignoring and praise, and you can physically dominate a dog without it becoming fearful of you, but that is not what Cesar is about. He's about 1960's "just a dog" discipline, IMO.

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 06:01 PM
There are trainers who are more forceful than just ignoring and praise, and you can physically dominate a dog without it becoming fearful of you, but that is not what Cesar is about. He's about 1960's "just a dog" discipline, IMO.

I would have to disagree with you. His shows are just a small edited portion, and while you may not agree with his behavior in certain situations, I don't think his overall philosophy is much different than most other trainers.
His book talks about controlling a dogs enviroment to teach him who is dominant, which is no different than most other dog behavior books. No where in the book does it tell people to physically dominate their dog, in fact it talks about ways to curb your dogs behavior WITHOUT having to get physical or having to use devices on your dog.

I don't agree with everything Cesar Millan does, and often his show skips over key points (as all edited shows do), but I think the book is helpful, and I liked the overall method it suggested.

In regards to the article, while Ian Dunbar's methods may work, the article came off extremely bitter, and a bit pompous. It seemed to suggest that his method is the ONLY method that would work. I also disagree with the part that mentions "dogs-as-wolves". No, dogs aren't wolves, but they can still function as a pack, and they still exhibit and understand that kind of behavior, so I don't know what the point of ignoring it is.

Keep in mind, I'm not attacking Mr. Dunbar, I don't know much about his work, I just didn't like the way the article was written.

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 06:24 PM
It seemed to suggest that his method is the ONLY method that would work. Oh I hate that attitude with all trainers (who have that attitude). The best trainers should know that every dog is different and what works for one might not work for another.

I see what you mean about Cesar's book though- I haven't read it, but I have said before that what is SAID on his show is useful, but what he DOES is horrible and not at all what he says. If he practiced what he preached, I might not have an issue with him.

littlesister
October 18th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Cesar Millan's show is accessible, and that's what a lot of people need these days. I think it simply teaches people not to be afraid to take control, and I agree 100% with that. In this politically correct time, people are afraid to discipline their dogs and children, so they start running the house. No one wants to hurt them... however in the long run, they'll be hurt more by having no discipline.
Trainers I've met that use only treats and praise, seem only to want to work with clean slate type puppies. Well that's all fun when you're starting with a puppy. They don't seem to want to work with aggressive dogs.
If you know a trainer in Montreal area that works with aggressive dogs without any choke chains, or other such means, do tell.....
I'm still looking....
Ian Dunbar - I'm sure if he had a show we'd all be just as happy to watch that!

meb999
October 18th, 2006, 07:05 PM
know who I love? Stanley Coren. I find he's just the right combination....

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Yeah, and he's got that Marlon Brando thing going for him too. Makes him seem more authoritative.:D

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Trainers I've met that use only treats and praise, seem only to want to work with clean slate type puppies.

I think you hit it on the head. Most training books can teach you a lot about raising a puppy, but they're not very helpful with behavioral or personality problems. What about when your puppy hits adolescence and starts ignoring everything out of the book? What if your dog isn't treat oriented, or he's dominant and very headstrong? Many of those books don't teach you what to do if the training doesn't work on your dog, and they kind of ignore the fact that all dogs have different personalities. Not all dogs are submissive, nor are all dogs happy just to please you, which is the kind of dog a lot of books seem to target.

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 07:27 PM
know who I love? Stanley Coren. I find he's just the right combination....

I really hate to ask this...but could someone please enlighten me again? Who is Stanley Coren?:o

ByronsMum
October 18th, 2006, 07:28 PM
I really hate to ask this...but could someone please enlighten me again? Who is Stanley Coren?:o

Ditto... :o

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Ditto... :o
Oh thank heavens! I thought I was totally losing it here...:crazy:

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 07:33 PM
Stanley Coren is a psychologist who does a lot of doggy things... He wrote a lot of books about dogs, like "How to speak dog" and "How dogs learn". Great guy.

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Hmmm Not only don't I get out much, I'm not reading the right books! :)

I think I speak dog pretty well, though--it's the only language spoken at home during the day :crazy: I believe that's called "immersion" or some such? :D

ByronsMum
October 18th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Stanley Coren is a psychologist who does a lot of doggy things... He wrote a lot of books about dogs, like "How to speak dog" and "How dogs learn". Great guy.


oooohh! I have heard about the "How to speak dog" book, but haven't actually read it. Do you recommend the read, Prin (or any others he wrote for that matter)?

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 07:40 PM
I have only read that one so far, but I've heard tidbits of the rest and I think it's all worthwhile. Just skip the part at the end of "how to speak dog" about the barking... ;)

I want to read the how dogs learn one the most.

ByronsMum
October 18th, 2006, 07:41 PM
I believe that's called "immersion" or some such? :D

Wow, fancy title, hazelrunpack! :D I should use that!! In my house we just call it "aaarrrooooooooooo-roooooo". For all I know I am swearing in dog-speak and my pup thinks I am a total potty-mouth!! LOL!!

PS: sorry to have jacked the thread! And now, back to Cesar...

LL1
October 18th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Yes,he reminds me of the old Monks of New Skete and even Koehler.
He's about 1960's "just a dog" discipline, IMO.

hazelrunpack
October 18th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Yes,he reminds me of the old Monks of New Skete and even Koehler.

oh no "old Monks of New Skete"..."Koehler"? oh so totally lost now...:o

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 09:05 PM
lol I'm with you on that one.

coppperbelle
October 18th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Me too. I grew up with aggressive dogs and I didn't need to kick them when they weren't looking to get them to fall in line. Nor did I need to drag them out from under things when they were afraid.

Out of curiousity why did you have aggressive dogs when you were growing up?


There are trainers who are more forceful than just ignoring and praise, and you can physically dominate a dog without it becoming fearful of you, but that is not what Cesar is about. He's about 1960's "just a dog" discipline, IMO.

Have you ever seen Cesar kick a dog? I have not and I have watched many episodes of his show. I have seen him give a little touch on the butt with his foot. I tried this when I was trying to train a dog to heel and it works when the dog is not paying attention. I am not talking about a kick but more of a nudge.

I may or may not agree with all his training methods but he does know what he is talking about. Working breeds need a job, retrieving breeds need to retrieve and all dogs especially those with tons of energy need to be exercised. I think my point is that Cesar is doing something for the dogs that have major behavioral problems whereas others are not.

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Have you ever seen Cesar kick a dog? I have not and I have watched many episodes of his show. I have seen him give a little touch on the butt with his foot. I tried this when I was trying to train a dog to heel and it works when the dog is not paying attention. I am not talking about a kick but more of a nudge.Sorry, but that nudge becomes more of a kick, IMO, if the dog isn't paying attention to the nudges fast enough.

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 10:13 PM
I guess it depends on what you view as kicking, because when I see him tap a dog on the butt it looks nothing like kicking to me, unless there's an episode where he actually did kick a dog hard and I didn't see it.
It probably depends on the dog too. Walnut constantly bashes into things harder than I could ever try kicking her, and tapping her on the butt isn't going to hurt her or cause her emotional distress.

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 10:14 PM
I'm having deja vu, I think I already had this exact conversation before, lol.

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 10:17 PM
lol yes you did. Me too.

But to finish it...:D If the hiney moves and causes the feet to slide across the cement, even an inch, IMO, it's a kick.

technodoll
October 18th, 2006, 10:38 PM
well according to the merriam-webster dictionary...

Main Entry: 1kick
Pronunciation: 'kik
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English kiken
intransitive verb
1 a : to strike out with the foot or feet b : to make a kick in football
2 a : to show opposition : RESIST, REBEL b : to protest strenuously or urgently : express grave discontent; broadly : COMPLAIN
3 : to function with vitality and energy <alive and kicking>
4 of a firearm : to recoil when fired
5 : to go from one place to another as circumstance or whim dictates
6 : to run at a faster speed during the last part of a race
transitive verb
1 a : to strike, thrust, or hit with the foot b : to strike suddenly and forcefully as if with the foot c : to remove by a kicking motion <kicked off her shoes> d : to remove from a position or status <kicked him off the team>

..... so... a kick is definitely different than a light bump on the butt... unless one has a very heavy foot and a weird action-reflex of the leg that causes one to "tap" very heavily! ;)

IMO... sometimes, some dogs warrant a light bump on the arse when they are ignoring your commands, being stubborn, completely distracted, etc while on the leash. not talking about beating a dog up here, LOL! :rolleyes:

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Light, fine, whatever, but bulldogs are HEAVY buggers with a very low center of gravity and it takes more than a tap to move one.

technodoll
October 18th, 2006, 10:53 PM
bulldogs are HEAVY buggers with a very low center of gravity and it takes more than a tap to move one

move? i thought the "tap" was to surprise the dog and remind him to focus on the trainer and not whatever else that was distracting?... i never heard it being a "kick hard enough to physically move a dog"? :confused: what did i miss! :eek:

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 10:55 PM
Well, there was a show, with a bulldog who attacked skateboards, and he started tapping his hiney to "redirect" him, but it wasn't working... etc etc. I'm not saying he booted him across the street, just made him move. If a method isn't working, stop and do something ELSE!

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 11:19 PM
I know which show you're talking about now, and I don't think that particular dog was listening to much else.
In any case, I see what you're saying, and I think a lot of that has to do with the time frame in which they have to tape the show. Yes, there are other ways to correct that type of behavior, and to get that kind of dog to listen, but they take a lot longer, and he only has a certain amount of time in which to get visible results, or else there's no show. Either way, the dog didn't appear negatively affected by it.

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I think he did. Every time he got booted, he had this betrayed look on his face. When I'm training any dog, I never want to see that face. :shrug:

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 11:41 PM
I dunno, Walnut gets that look, and it's usually because she doesn't want to do something, not 'cause she feels betrayed. She does it when she doesn't want to do something, it's kind of a "What the heck do YOU want?". Royce gives that look and he's sincerely hurt because he's sensitive...I dunno...I'm looking at it in the context of what dog it was. Some dogs are very manipulative, and no one had ever made that bulldog actually pay attention, and he was EXTREMELY fixated on certain things, so it just looked like to me he just didn't like being reprimanded. You have a lot more dog experience than me, so maybe you're right, but he just didn't look betrayed to me.

Prin
October 18th, 2006, 11:43 PM
I look at it the other way- if you boot a dog, what reaction do you expect?

MyBirdIsEvil
October 18th, 2006, 11:59 PM
I would expect it to mean something different depending on the dogs personality, which is why it didn't appear that way to me, but there's also a chance it did mentally affect the dog so I'm definately not saying you're wrong.
I also think that one situation was an extreme one since the dog was severely fixated on so many things, so maybe it was the only thing that would get the dogs attention. And like I said, there's a time frame in which they have to tape the show, so maybe that had some bearing on him trying to fix the situation much quicker :shrug: . That's why I liked the book better, the show often doesn't explain more subtle approaches, whereas the book does.

coppperbelle
October 19th, 2006, 06:15 AM
lol yes you did. Me too.

But to finish it...:D If the hiney moves and causes the feet to slide across the cement, even an inch, IMO, it's a kick.

Again, I have never seen Cesar do such a thing and if you have I would like to know where. I do not condone abuse of any sort and when I talk about a nudge that is exactly what it is. There is no feet sliding across the cement.

coppperbelle
October 19th, 2006, 06:26 AM
I can tell you that if my dog is attacking people who are innocently skateboarding by me he is going to know what he is doing is wrong. That is a totally unacceptable behavior. He is being bad and will know it. I don't care how upset he gets about being reprimanded.
Yesterday I met a family who bought an Airedale pup who is now 7 months old. They are at their wits end with this dog. He is giving them so much trouble. They have started training but it is not doing very much. I can see that this dog is very close to being given up. I took some time to show them a few things. The dog is still biting them so I took my hands and closed his mouth and said firmly "no". He yelped like I was hurting him. The next thing I did was tell him to sit. When he wouldn't listen I pushed down on his rump and said sit again. You would think I was killing him by the protesting he was doing. He was having a doggy temper tantrum. I did not inflict pain of any sort on this guy but the fact that I made him follow through with the command I gave him was foreign and made us aware that he was not happy. I say, too bad!!!
Like kids they need to learn their limits. Once they do they will be more fun to have around.

Golden Girls
October 19th, 2006, 06:42 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with training a dog and the way you did was good. I've seen Cesar Milan on Oprah and I liked his approach, I've said that before. But I've never seen his show so I cannot comment on some of the above posters.

After I watched him train both Oprah and Nate (decorator) and used his tecnique (right after the show) with my own (Jiorgi is my witness) and it worked really well, I was actually amazed how simple it was! I also think that probably alot of dogs would be re-homed or pts if he hadn't helped but that's just my opinion I guess. I am surprised though at the amount of slander there is on this subject bec as far as I know charges of animal abuse still haven't been proven :shrug:

But if he actually kicked the dog I consider that abuse, no matter who you are :sad:

happycats
October 19th, 2006, 08:52 AM
I saw the Bulldog show too, And yes I did feel sorry for the poor little guy, because of the look on his face. (but I also know they look the same way at you when they want your dinner:D )

Yes, Cesar was a little extreme in that case, but the dog was very extreme, and I don't really think anything else would have helped, the dog just wasn't getting it, he was SO obsessed with skateboards.
The repercussions could have been allot worse, the dog could have bitten a skateboarder, and have to be pts or ran out on the road to go after one, and get hit by a car.

When it's a life or death situation, I think sometimes being physical is the only way. What if your little child ran out on the road without looking? Sometimes a spank makes them remember never to do it again, either a spank or getting hit by a car, which would you choose?

technodoll
October 19th, 2006, 09:29 AM
The repercussions could have been allot worse, the dog could have bitten a skateboarder, and have to be pts or ran out on the road to go after one, and get hit by a car. When it's a life or death situation, I think sometimes being physical is the only way. What if your little child ran out on the road without looking? Sometimes a spank makes them remember never to do it again, either a spank or getting hit by a car, which would you choose?

very well put, happycats... extreme cases most often warrant extreme training techniques to get the dog down to a manageable level. it's unfortunate but think of the other option (being PTS because nobody can manage the dog or "train out" the bad behaviors) :shrug: IMO, the trouble with TV shows... any show... is that most people don't take the context into consideration and try to apply the same techniques on dogs that don't need it... like the "don't try this at home" warnings on some shows and ads, YET there are always folks who ignore this... :rolleyes:

dtbmnec
October 19th, 2006, 11:00 AM
very well put, happycats... extreme cases most often warrant extreme training techniques to get the dog down to a manageable level. it's unfortunate but think of the other option (being PTS because nobody can manage the dog or "train out" the bad behaviors) :shrug: IMO, the trouble with TV shows... any show... is that most people don't take the context into consideration and try to apply the same techniques on dogs that don't need it... like the "don't try this at home" warnings on some shows and ads, YET there are always folks who ignore this... :rolleyes:

There are always ALWAYS going to be a few stupid ones...you can have the smallest population ever and in any given situation ONE of them will be the moron and do the "don't try this at home" stuff...welcome to the Darwin awards :p

Megan

Prin
October 19th, 2006, 11:59 AM
Yes, Cesar was a little extreme in that case, but the dog was very extreme, and I don't really think anything else would have helped, the dog just wasn't getting it, he was SO obsessed with skateboards.
The repercussions could have been allot worse, the dog could have bitten a skateboarder, and have to be pts or ran out on the road to go after one, and get hit by a car.

When it's a life or death situation, I think sometimes being physical is the only way. What if your little child ran out on the road without looking? Sometimes a spank makes them remember never to do it again, either a spank or getting hit by a car, which would you choose?
To the ends justifies the means? So it's ok to hit my dog, if through hitting him he learns a valuable lesson?

The thing with the skateboards was the dog was ONLY after the skateboard, not the kid on it. They even rolled one alone and the dog chased and attacked it.

What I would have done in his case would have been to inundate him with skateboards. Have them ALL over the house for a bit. Roll them around as you walk by. After a while, he'll be so used to them, he won't even care. :shrug: And I won't have to hit him.

Prin
October 19th, 2006, 12:01 PM
Coppperbelle, grabbing a muzzle and pushing a hiney down aren't kicking. :shrug: IMO, dogs understand grabbing far more than they understand blunt force of any kind. And the screaming? That was just because the dog had never been dominated in any way his entire life. My dad's dog did that too when I grabbed his neck fur.

we3beagles
October 19th, 2006, 12:07 PM
I have a dog Soozie that is as bad as I have ever seen on a leash. I have had a lot of dogs (foster and my own) and have never been unable to get through to them. She goes absolutely bonkers if she sees another dog on the leash and when bringing in a foster she needs to be introduced properly. If we do see another dog on a walk she absolutely fixates and her little mouth starts going in a crazy mumble. She is terrified to say the least. I have tried a lot of things and consulted behaviourists and trainers as well as done some research to no avail. Let me tell you the only thing that breaks her fixation with the other dog is a little nudge with the foot. She even ignores hot dogs when she get like that. After I nudge her she looks up at me almost gratefully and waits for the treat. Sometimes it is the only way to break that concentration. We have yet another trainer coming, hopefully this week.
While I don't agree with some of the things that he does I do think that Ceasar has helped a lot of people with extreme problem dogs. I also think it is a bit dangerous to show this type of training to people who may not have a problem dog, but think they do. Ceasar's methods may in fact make a good dog worse in all probablility with too harsh of treatment. I wonder if a disclaimer wouldn't help?

littlesister
October 22nd, 2006, 12:37 PM
Ya, that's what I thought, there are NO trainers around, that are willing to work with an aggressive dog without using any kind of force; choke collars, otherwise euphemistically known as "training collars", pinch collars, or the like. No one knows anyone like that.
I hardly think tapping a dog's behind a little is even as close to the annoyance of having a "training collar" tighten around one's neck.
Yes, truly there would be some Darwin award types that would take his show's style training a little too seriously, and actually kick the dog's butt hard. Even then it wouldn't compare to having one's neck tightened.
I actually tried one of those pinch collars on, to see if it was as brutal as it looked. Quite frankly folks, I'd rather have to wear that all day than a "training collar." Try it, you'll see.

Prin
October 22nd, 2006, 01:17 PM
Did somebody yank your leash repeatedly while you wore that collar?

mummummum
October 23rd, 2006, 12:22 AM
It's moments like these I am ever grateful that I don't watch television. Cesar sounds very SENSATIONAL (and I mean that in the tabloid headliner-rates-grabbing way, not in the "gee, he's a sensational guy" way).

I don't believe using violence as a "teaching tool" demonstrates anything other than impatience and a willingness to be a bully. In my mind, dogs are unique and each learn differently ~ the underlying method can be the same, the end result should be same but how you get there will be tailored to the learning needs of the dog. Violence as a "teaching tool" instills fear and on some level loathing, not the respect and engagement in learning and above all else trust in me, that I am after when I work with animals.

I really take issue with people who believe that those who choose not to use prong collars and physically aggressive teaching and discipline methods with their dogs, whom others have described as aggressive or behavioural problems, as either not knowing what they are doing or that they don't "really" have aggressive dogs. Working with animals with serious behaviour problems does not produce instant results and that is what too many people think they should get. Facing challenges like these requires a level of creativity that you won't find in the "ABC Guide to Training Your Dog" and is in fact well beyond the abilities of most. Dogs who are aggressive or fearful to the point of posing an imminent threat at all times will not learn unless they are with someone who fully understands and can anticipate exactly what they are thinking and feeling (not what a book says they must be thinking and feeling) and why they are reacting in the ways they react and how they look, smell, move, hear and see when they do react.

I have yet to read a training book that was completely useless, there is always something, no matter how small a lesson, to be learned. I would never subscribe to a single training philosophy either and I put to the real-life challenge all training methods I come across. That is, with the exception of those which employ violent methodology or tools ~ I'm simply not willing to violate the most basic tenet in the relationship that I have with my animals ~ trust.

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 12:41 AM
Great post mummummum. I especially like this bit:
Working with animals with serious behaviour problems does not produce instant results and that is what too many people think they should get.That is so true, but unfortunately both on tv and with a trainer, people do expect instant results. So the trainers break out the "tools" like the prong and hiney boot so that people don't change the channel or feel like they haven't gotten their money's worth, even if in the long run, it's not the best way of getting at a problem. It's a consequence of our ADD afflicted society.:shrug:

littlesister
October 23rd, 2006, 07:51 PM
"Did somebody yank your leash repeatedly while you wore that collar?"

No, I put it around my arm and yanked and it wasn't as bad as it looked.

Do you really think being pinched is so much worse than having your airway restricted?

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 07:53 PM
Doesn't the prong do both? It tightens as it pokes.

And I'm sure my doggies wouldn't mind a prong around their legs either.

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 07:58 PM
i find prong collars much more humane than chokers. the blunt prongs simulate a mother's correctional bite on the scruff of the neck, and the pressure is distributed evenly around the neck and not cutting off the windpipe and damaging the delicate throat tissue. NO TOOL works well if not used correctly... but IMO, mis-using a prong collar doesn't cause as much physical damage as mis-using a choke collar. i despise choke collars, and the prongs damage and stain my dog's neck fur so i don't use that anymore, either :shrug:

jesse's mommy
October 23rd, 2006, 08:24 PM
TD I'm right there with you on that response. Honey needed the prong to correct Jesse and I fought it as long as I could UNTIL I put it on my arm and realized that when used correctly IT DOESN'T HURT. It just simulates the idea of it. Obviously when it was put on your arm it was not being used correctly, therefore hurt you.

littlesister
October 23rd, 2006, 08:26 PM
I don't use either one either.
However, for some people that can not actually fulfill the basic function of walking their dogs, as they don't have the strength or proper training, I think it would be a good investment.

Ideally, they'd just run free.

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 08:27 PM
A better investment, IMO, 9 times out of 10 is a newtrix.:shrug:

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 08:28 PM
Honey needed the prong to correct Jesse and I fought it as long as I could UNTIL I put it on my arm and realized that when used correctly IT DOESN'T HURT.

hey, i tested it on my own neck before i bought the dang thing, LOL :o

(paranoid mommy)

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 08:30 PM
My man tried to buy one, but when he picked it up off the rack, Boo cried and threw up in the store.:o

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 08:32 PM
A better investment, IMO, 9 times out of 10 is a newtrix.

why do i always have to be that "1" that doesn't fit? :frustrated: i really wanted it to work but... sigh. dog with big melon head, wouldn't sit right and it pushed his eyes back into his head :eek: however yes, i have seen them on many dogs and they seem to work great!! better than any choke, prong, etc :)

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 08:34 PM
My man tried to buy one, but when he picked it up off the rack, Boo cried and threw up in the store

ah you didn't see him sneak all those chicken and duck cookies out of the bins eh? LOL :D sneaky, clever boo..!

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 08:41 PM
lol, no we know it was the prong because the man, Mr "Experimental Control" did it again with the same results.:D

technodoll
October 23rd, 2006, 09:02 PM
:( that speaks volumes about what boo suffered in his "previous life"... to get so traumatized that he vomits upon seeing a prong collar.... poor boo :(

Prin
October 23rd, 2006, 09:27 PM
Yeah. Poor Boo. He's ok now. Almost too ok....:evil:

coppperbelle
October 23rd, 2006, 09:38 PM
I don't use either one either.
However, for some people that can not actually fulfill the basic function of walking their dogs, as they don't have the strength or proper training, I think it would be a good investment.

Ideally, they'd just run free.

I can assure you that I have both experience and strength but walking my 55 pound golden was a nightmare until I bought a prong. I hated the look of it at first and did lots of reading on how to use it properly before actually using it. I spent countless hours in obedience classes and walking in front of my house back and forth hoping she would catch on. I spent a small fortune on different types of collars. Nothing worked until the prong. They are not only for inexperienced trainers by the way as I know many people who compete in obedience and use the prong in training their dogs.

littlesister
October 24th, 2006, 05:12 AM
Copperbelle, you read a lot and learned how to use it - that's training.
Some folks, including a good friend of mine, with a dog of about 100 lbs, have stopped walking their dogs, due to shoulder dislocations (squirrels) and such trauma. After a month or so of no walks, she bought a prong collar, and now they can walk again.
Pain thresholds, - there's another factor, different dogs have different pain thresholds, what works just adequately for one breed would be a torture device on another dog.

technodoll
October 24th, 2006, 09:26 AM
there's another factor, different dogs have different pain thresholds, what works just adequately for one breed would be a torture device on another dog.

TOTALLY agree! cesar milan should mention that repeatedly in his shows though... not alot of folks seem to recognize this basic fact :frustrated:

littlesister
October 26th, 2006, 09:57 AM
What I appreciate most about the show, is that it can open peoples minds to alternatives to euthanasia or other less positive ideas.

twodogsandacat
October 26th, 2006, 11:55 PM
I know there has been some concerns with Ceser Milan's methods. So I watched a few shows. I like him. I think he does stuff that many of us wouldn't ever consider and he gets away with it.

Thoughout the show and usally before he does something they do give a 'don't try these methods without a professional' warning.

His basic message seems to be that your dog WANTS you to be the pack leader and if you can't fill the role the dog will. That's not a bad message.