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Vegan dog food...

Prin
October 10th, 2006, 03:57 PM
I think that vegans are very aware of their body chemistry and nutrition, and as such, I think it becomes a dilemma if a person gets a dog and wants to respect the dog's body as much as they do their own, because IMO, that would lead them to a raw diet (as in raw meat). Right?

And I know there are a couple of veggies here who feed raw because they feel that that is the best thing for their dogs.

But what of the vegans who just directly jump to vegan dog food? How can vegan dog food sustain a dog? I mean, sure if the dog has allergies to animal proteins, that's one thing, but with no allergies, IMO, a dog has no biological reason to do well on a vegan diet.

And then you get the same arguments that you do with ol' roy- where the owner "thinks" their dog's coat is shiny and the dog is healthy, when really they just don't know how the dog could really be, given the proper nutrition.

Sure vegan diets are balanced- before going into the dog. If the dog doesn't digest or absorb most of it, that "balance" is out the window.

I just think that a vegan feeding vegan is like a dog eating raw meat and expecting its owner to as well.

Any thoughts?

technodoll
October 10th, 2006, 04:24 PM
while some will argue and show "exceptions" (dogs that live a long & healthy life on a meatless diet), one must remember they are just that: exceptions. George Burns was also an exception... ;)

quote from a site i like... it says it all!

“I feed my dog a vegetarian diet.”

What are you, nuts? Would you feed a horse an all meat diet? Come on people—dogs are carnivores. Say it with me—car-ni-vores. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp. See the above pics for examples of just the jaw structure that supports that dogs are carnivores, and when the mouth is for a carnivore, the rest of the body follows suit.

Dogs are not omnivores. Pointy teeth unsuitable for grinding plant matter, short digestive system—they are designed to eat meat. It’s time we stop trying to convince ourselves that just because we need vegetables and feel we need grains in our diet that our animal friends need them as well.


humans can do well on a balanced vegan diet, however our little wolves in dog's clothing are designed from nose to tail to eat, digest and thrive on a meaty diet... not grains and seeds. let's leave that to the birds ;)

Dog Dancer
October 10th, 2006, 05:13 PM
From experience I tried feeding Halo a vegan diet when her food allergies were out of control. She failed to thrive on it. It was a good quality food, holistic brand. Can't recall the name anymore I ended up chucking it out. Halo threw up every day at 5:00 am when she was on the diet, and had the runs. She ate it no problem, but it just made her sick. Clearly it was not the choice for us. Maybe some extreme allergies need it as Prin said, but wow I won't put my dogs there ever again!

mummummum
October 10th, 2006, 05:14 PM
The other thing to remember about vegan diets is that compared to dawgs humans actually need very little protein to sustain themselves (:sorry: all you meateaters but it's true...) and as noted are able to digest cellulose whereas dogs derive very little benefit from veg and grain based proteins. I would never consider placing any one of my boobalas on a vegan diet (not to mention I might not survive the mutiny :D )

rainbow
October 10th, 2006, 10:09 PM
I don't think I could ever feed my dogs a vegetarian diet....It just doesn't make sense IMO.

technodoll
October 10th, 2006, 10:33 PM
some people like to play mad scientists, i guess :D

Prin
October 10th, 2006, 10:36 PM
or some people aren't as open-minded and educated on nutrition as they claim to be.:o

technodoll
October 10th, 2006, 11:15 PM
this sums it up nicely: http://www.dognutrition.com/vegetarian-diet-for-dogs.html

:)

mafiaprincess
October 11th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Gotta vegan dog diet Q for y'all..

I'm shopping petfinder again.. bad mafia, bad.

And I found a sweetie who can't handle animal protein, and is MANDITORILY on a vet baded diet without.. I assume the avoderm vegan formula would be the same, just 'better' would it not?

Prin
October 11th, 2006, 10:27 PM
Yeah, but there are even better ones.

http://www.wenaewe.com.uy/en_vegetarian.html

mafiaprincess
October 11th, 2006, 10:33 PM
I'd never seen that one, cool. Bugged me to see you had to agree to feed the vet crap when I knew there was at least one that was without animal protein on the market..

Prin
October 11th, 2006, 10:34 PM
Yeah, for sure. They just make you agree just to see how willing and open-minded you are.:)

ByronsDad
October 13th, 2006, 12:52 PM
I once went on a veggie diet – ethical reasons mainly. I lasted about half a year. One day I just snapped, went out and bought a tub of chicken from KFC, and sat in front of the TV eating it straight from the bucket. :evil:

ByronsMum
November 24th, 2006, 05:32 PM
I once went on a veggie diet – ethical reasons mainly. I lasted about half a year. One day I just snapped, went out and bought a tub of chicken from KFC, and sat in front of the TV eating it straight from the bucket. :evil:

And then he took me to Red Lobster!! mmmmm....Red Lobster!!! :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Some dogs require a vegan or vegetarian diet and do well on it.Some people choose to feed one and they also do well,but not all do,it is a personal choice,and every dog is different.I would not put my own dietary restrictions on my companions,if I wanted to do that,I would choose to only have vegan or veggie companions.

technodoll
November 24th, 2006, 06:31 PM
i am so keeping out of this thread, LOL! :rolleyes: (yayy bunnies for LL1, teehee!) :D

but mmm red looobster... mmm! :p

LL1
November 24th, 2006, 06:36 PM
Red Lobster?LOL!gross!

I love bunnies and GPs.

~michelle~
November 24th, 2006, 07:58 PM
so i posted something simular on a closed thread but i dont agree with dogs being vegan or vegetarian but i do agree with it for humans (although i do eat meat i used to be veg but had to stop for some reasons)

here is why...


canines

-all teeth are pointed,sharp and meant for tearing flesh
- canines have the enzymes to digest raw meat. thats why they
dont get ill when eat it

- in the wild canines eat primary meat, and eat veggies to either aid in some digestion or to survive when food is scarice, not on a reg basis

- dogs cannot thrive on a veg diet without supplements

humans
-most teeth are flat for grinding or flat for cutting through fruits/ veggies however we cannot (even with out "canine teeth") easily tear flesh

- we get sick if we eat raw meat we dont have the enzymes to digest them.

- meat leads to increased cholesterol: humans die/become ill more often from clogged arteries leading to heart attacks. dogs dont dies as often from clogged arteries

- primative humans (in some yes controversal studies) ate fruits and veggies as their main source of nutrition

- humans can survive on a veg diet without supplements (with proper planning, however most human veg or not could use supplements b/c most dont plan and get all the nec. nutrients)

technodoll
November 24th, 2006, 07:59 PM
good post michelle :thumbs up

badger
November 24th, 2006, 09:00 PM
I'm a vegetarian myself but I must say it would never occur to me to impose such a diet (or some variation) on a cat or a dog. In their natural state they are meat eaters so why interfere with what their bodies have adapted to? I realize some vegetarians have a very hard time handling meat, that could be an issue. But I still think a meatless diet, except for animals who are allergic (which I'm guessing are rare), is going against the, ah, grain.

Prin
November 24th, 2006, 09:07 PM
I suggested to meb to try a veggie diet on Buster (GASP!) because he's been on pretty well every meat source, so maybe like CF who used to post here's doggy, Buster is meat intolerant.:shrug:

But IMO, that's the only time it should be used- when there aren't any other options for a particular doggy.:shrug:

OntarioGreys
November 26th, 2006, 05:29 AM
I suggested to meb to try a veggie diet on Buster (GASP!) because he's been on pretty well every meat source, so maybe like CF who used to post here's doggy, Buster is meat intolerant.:shrug:

But IMO, that's the only time it should be used- when there aren't any other options for a particular doggy.:shrug:

Problem could be everyone is "self diagnosing" the problem as a food allergy
whereas he could have an illness such as an autoimmune disease and continued playing with food changes instead of going to the vet and testing is not going to fix and may end up cutting his life even considerably shorter some of these autoimmune disease not only affect and erode the skin but also do the same to internal organs and the longer it takes to diagnose and start treatment the more permanent damage gets done. With many of the autoimmune diseases there are periods of remission and flair ups. If you started a diet change at the same time as a start of a remission it may appear the diet is working but after a few months the dog starts declining again while on the same and that is a good indicator the problem is not food related but most people instead of telling the person take your dog to the vet and demand tests should be done to rule out the possiblity of autoimune disorders or inflammatory bowel disease but suggest another food instead., It is the same thing as giving behavioural training advice for a dog that has a UTI, you are doing more harm than good.

If you want to rule out a possible food allergy try something with just one exotoc meat source and rice example venison and rice if that doesn' t work try a fish and potato(no grains) if still no improvement don't waste time trying more foods get to the vet and start ruling medical problems out, for one thing constant food changes are hard on dogs if they are immune compromised even harder and raw diets are worse yet because their immune system can be too weak to fight off even small amounts of ecoli or salmonella and can prove deadly. If there is improvement but then fails later with no change in diet it should be considered a sign of autoimmune problems.

I have had now 3 dogs with autoimmune diseases none of their conditions would have been fixed by diet and yet all of them had symptoms that could have be mistaken with food allergies.

Buddy (cocker spaniel) Pemphigus Foliaceus( and possibly autoimmune thyroiditis as well) diagnosed late already had paralysis of the face died of his disease shortly after his 7th birthday, I had adopted him at 3 years old vet initially told me it was allergies, it was not till problems were very severe did treatment begin at the time prednisone was the only option, the last couple years where hell

Callie (greyhound) autoimmune thyroiditis - I adopted her at age 7 and knew within days something was wrong, her skin had thickened, had prblem skin and was leather like, she was lethargic and depressed, and nerve damage she dragged her toes when walking. I asked for testing right away , many of the problems resolved shortly after starting meds some over time the nerve damage was permanent she passed away at 9 due to an unrelated illness but her quality of life improved dramatically with treatment.

Maya (greyhound) Lupus Erythematosus. very similiar in nature to what Buddy had except there is nose skin involvement as well, she was diagnosed early at 2 years old , at 5years old unless you knew what to look for you would never know she has a serious disease, with Buddy it was very apparent that he was not a well dog. She is on an alternative treatment and we are saving prednisone as a last resort Because she is doing so well I do expect she will still be in fairly good health and active into her golden years. other than the meds she needs to take she is pretty much physically like any other dog her age, without the early diagnosis and meds she could have very well have been in the same condition as Buddy slowly dying before my eyes with.
ongoing worsening and new problems cropping up.

Out of quite a number of dogs that I have had since childhood only one has had a true food allergy and that is Sunny, he also has food intolerances which unlike food allergies results in stomach upsets. It is lonely in the last 15 to 20 years that premium foods have been on the market and approximately in the last 10 where limited ingredients diets became available and yet more dogs than ever before in the past now are claimed to have food allergies. but allergies themselves are a symptom of a dysfunctional immune system, so are people in fact trying to treat a symptom rather than the underlying condition that is causing the symptom in the first place and therefore calling it and allergy than what the problem truly is?

meb999
November 26th, 2006, 12:13 PM
Problem could be everyone is "self diagnosing" the problem as a food allergy
whereas he could have an illness such as an autoimmune disease and continued playing with food changes instead of going to the vet and testing is not going to fix and may end up cutting his life even considerably shorter some of these autoimmune disease not only affect and erode the skin but also do the same to internal organs and the longer it takes to diagnose and start treatment the more permanent damage gets done.

Being the prudent dog-mom that I am, I have been to the vets on numerous occasions for Buster's digestive problems. And I have the credit card debt to prove it :D
Buster's had quite a few full blood panels done, rectal exams...I've brought in 'specimens' to have tests run on them. The whole kit and kaboodle has been done. According to the vets he's in tip-top shape. She thinks he may have an irritable bowel and an intolerence to certain foods. She's told me again and again, that all this is food related. I just have to keep listing the foods I've tried and finding the common denominator that's causing Buster's upset tummy :shrug:
Thanks for worrying, but I'm definetly not self-diagnosing.

Prin
November 26th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Yeah, what meb said.:D

Obviously after so many foods- even after only a couple- a vet should be seen asap.

But Meb's probably going to go to raw anyway.. Techno wins again.:sad: :D

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 04:31 PM
But Meb's probably going to go to raw anyway.. Techno wins again

no, buster wins :) :thumbs up :pray: that it will work, so his mommy can finally celebrate with the "rabbit poop" dance :D

meb999
November 26th, 2006, 04:35 PM
I'm not making the switch YET!! Still trying to figure everything out...

Prin
November 26th, 2006, 04:42 PM
no, buster wins :) :thumbs up :pray: that it will work, so his mommy can finally celebrate with the "rabbit poop" dance :D

Well, this pretend rivalry's not gonna work if you don't play along. :frustrated: :D

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 04:42 PM
marie-eve, if someday you are ready, you now have a TEAM of experts to guide you ! :D

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Well, this pretend rivalry's not gonna work if you don't play along.

ouain! he he he :evil:

meb999
November 26th, 2006, 04:56 PM
marie-eve, if someday you are ready, you now have a TEAM of experts to guide you ! :D

Either way, I'd still love to find a kibble that he can digest, so even if I try RAW, it'd be nice to be able to supplement with a kibble. I'm trying Solid Gold BATM next. I'm putting all my eggs in the BATM basket :D

Scott_B
November 27th, 2006, 06:14 AM
supplement with a kibble

Blasphemy :angel:

OntarioGreys
November 27th, 2006, 03:21 PM
Being the prudent dog-mom that I am, I have been to the vets on numerous occasions for Buster's digestive problems. And I have the credit card debt to prove it :D
Buster's had quite a few full blood panels done, rectal exams...I've brought in 'specimens' to have tests run on them. The whole kit and kaboodle has been done. According to the vets he's in tip-top shape. She thinks he may have an irritable bowel and an intolerence to certain foods. She's told me again and again, that all this is food related. I just have to keep listing the foods I've tried and finding the common denominator that's causing Buster's upset tummy :shrug:
Thanks for worrying, but I'm definetly not self-diagnosing.


I am not speaking specifically of you ;) Since your dog's problems is bowels rather than skin, Here is some info you might want to have your vet look at, I just checked to see if it is available in Canada for small animals(which it is) otherwise would have had to get thru a vet who cares for livestock

,
I know one vet( Suzanne Stack dvm) in the US usually recommends this with dogs with ongoing or constant flare ups of diarreaha before going thru all sorts of expensive testing and biopsy, colonscopies etc,as sometimes related to a bacteria most dogs can handle but some have problems with and because because most dogs can handle, fecal testing can present as normal, some of these bacterias are resistant to tetracylines which make the tysolin a better option and she says most dogs respond to this
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tylosin.html (http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_.html)

Brand Name: TYLOCINE TAB 200 MG
Source: PROVEL
Active Ingredient: TYLOSIN
Comments: DOG, CAT
Date: 91/04/24



http://www.jvetintmed.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1892%2F0891-6640(2005)19%3C177%3ATCDID%3E2.0.CO%3B2

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:9SvsOoA17PYJ:www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/Update08-2/upd8-2p06.pdf+tylosin+dog&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=63

This article you might find the most interesting , it talks about testing and it describes how to tell if the problem is in the large or small intestines if in the large intestine diet change may help but if in the small it is related to something else, but since your vet feels it is food related the problem must be in the large intestine which is where the tylan powder use is most effective, some dogs do need to stay on long term otherwise there are re-ocurrances
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2003&PID=6539&O=Generic

meb999
November 27th, 2006, 08:54 PM
Thank you very much OG -- I appreciate the info. I plan on returning to the vets in 3 weeks if things don't clear up (before switching to yet another food)