February 19th, 2004, 01:35 AM
I am just curious, is anyone in this forum active in fighting BSL?
Canada seems to be on the BSL bandwagon and fighting it has become an uphill battle. Pitt Bull and pitt bull mixes are the primary targets but recently bouviers and rodesian ridgebacks have been added to the mix.
February 19th, 2004, 09:57 AM
All of us on the pit bull forum I moderate do everything we can to fight it.
I believe BSL was proposed in Toronto not long ago, but the law did not go through.
As we all know, BSL is not the answer. As each breed - pit bulls at the moment - are banned, the type of people who are causing the problem will just move on to another breed.
BSL is as futile as banning a make of car each time a drunk driver kills someone in it.
February 19th, 2004, 11:46 PM
I must say, I am a bit disappointed in the lack of response. Of course, I knew that you LR would be part of the fight.
I just did 2 minutes of research and this is what I came up with.
British Columbia - The cities of Vancouver and Coquitlam have restrictions on pit bulls.
Alberta - In Edmonton, pit bulls must be muzzled, the license fees are higher and each dog must have $1,000,000.00 worth of liability insurance.
Brooks has legislation on the table that will restrict pit bulls and ban rottweilers, mastiffs, and rodesian ridgebacks.
In Saskatchewan - the city of Clavet has banned pit bulls and the city of Moosomin has banned pit bulls, rottweilers and dobermans.
In Manitoba - Winnepeg and MacDonald have banned pit bulls.
Ontario - Kitchner and Waterloo - banned pit bulls
Lakeshore - no pit bulls or preas canarios
Midland - pit bulls, rottweilers and any mastiff breed must be muzzled at all times.
Vaughn - pit bull licenses are 5x higher then other breeds.
In Quebec - Sherbrooke - banned pit bulls, rottweilers, and mastiffs.
Saint-Jean-sur-Richilieu - banned pit bulls
Lachine, Kirkland, Outremont, and Saint Geneivieve - banned pit bulls.
In Nova Scotia - Clarks Harbor has banned pit bulls.
In Prince Edward Island -Montague - banned pit bulls and rottweilers.
Don't worry, if you own a pit bull, chances are the fight will come to your town.
Just so you know, this is nothing compared to the U.S.
February 20th, 2004, 01:04 AM
My brother lives in Lachine, and the banning of pit bulls came about by the mayor being treed by two of them, owned no doubt by the kind of scum who is hurting all of us.:mad:
BSL is nowhere near the magnitude here that it is in the US, partly because the population is so much smaller, other than in major urban areas, particularly the Toronto - Hamilton area, where there is a big dogfighting problem.
I've never seen a pit bull in a shelter here, and in fact had to travel 600 miles to get mine! Of course, our shelter kills nearly everything that comes through the doors, so that could be it too.
That's not to say there are none in downtown Montreal, or that there is no problem,(I'm sure there is) but I have never heard it.
February 20th, 2004, 01:19 AM
The BSL group that I belong to spent the day in Brooks today at the council meeting. Thanks to a wonderful woman with Rodesian Ridgebacks, it has been tabled for further consideration. One of the council members told her that he would do everything in his power to make sure that no dogs will be banned. But he is only one person.
I have been doing bite research for days. The numbers just aren't there to support these bans. To make matters worse, neither the U.S. or Canada has any type of data base for dog bites and the ones that are reported do not contain critical information. Were the dogs family pets that were kept inside or were they chained/kenneled outside? Have the dogs had any type of training? What precipitated the bite? These are just basic questions that should be answered to make educated decisions on bite prevention.
The other thing that must be considered is the average joe wouldn't know a "pit bull" if it bit him on the nose. (Pun not intended). Hell, my brother and I spent years at dog shows with my mom and I was floored by his lack of dog knowledge! Put 5 or 6 large "pit bull" type dogs in a room and see if your local dog warden can pick out the APBT. Probably not. And nowdays, if the people at the shelter don't know what it is, they label it a pit bull.
February 20th, 2004, 11:21 AM
Well when you go into the shelters in Toronto,there are tons of Pit Bulls.And there have been in the Hamilton shelters.And trust me,they are Pit Bulls.Have you seen any of the links Luba posted?Almost all are Pit Bulls.
Sandi,the only reason I didn't reply right away is that there are no legal bans in Ontario.
I have just moved from Toronto to Hamilton.I was born and raised in toronto for 37 years.
I have a friend in Midland with a Rottie.He isn't muzzled at any time.I had to even ask him about this muzzle law.He said he never heard of it.And there are quite a few Rotties there.Along with the Pit Bulls.None are muzzled.And if there was a law,they would be fined.
LR is so right about Toronto and Hamilton.There is alot of dogfighting in these 2 cities.A heck of alot more in Toronto.
February 20th, 2004, 12:47 PM
The other thing that must be considered is the average joe wouldn't know a "pit bull" if it bit him on the nose
This is a very important fact, and one that we are well aware of.
Since pit bulls range from small, lean and hound-like gamedogs,(and come in any colour) to the 100+ lb freaks and Mastiff mixes being bred by morons, how many people can ID a pit bull?
On another board I visit, the owners of a red Dobie, a Great Dane and a white boxer were all asked, "Is that a pit bull?"
I have personally seen news reports of hounds, beagles and even Pugs being called pit bulls,
So much for breed ID. I'm sure it's the same with Rotties - any larger, black and brown dog is a Rottweiler, even if it's a GSD/Lab mix.
Sandi, you also make an excellent point with this:
Were the dogs family pets that were kept inside or were they chained/kenneled outside? Have the dogs had any type of training? What precipitated the bite?
From another article (sorry, don't have it!) the observation seems to be that not one beloved, trained, house-pet, family type pit bull has ever been involved in any of these attacks. Most often the story reads how the dog "got off it's chain" or in a recent case, "got out of it's steel cage." Unsocialized, untrained, chained and caged dogs are usually not very reliable.
The fact that punks, wannabes and jerks are breeding FOR human aggression must also be factored in, and that trait is an aberration of pit bull temperament.
In an article by the ATTS, it's stated that Labs are more often responsible for severe bites to humans than pit bulls or Rotties, particularly in cases involving children, but these do not make the headlines. After all, "Pit Bull Attacks" sells more papers and that's the business they are in.
Here is an observation by Alexandra Bowe Allred, dog trainer and author, on biting dogs.
" 10 Most Common Biters:
This list has some surprises. Allred says that in nature, dogs one through seven can be friendly, but they are intolerant and snap when handled roughly, startled, or pushed around. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, and Pit Bulls are actually much less inclined to bite, but their powerful bites lead to great injuries and are reported more often.
February 20th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Hi there, I find this post very interesting and I agree that these types of legislations are not well thought out
and yes pitties get a bad rap. I own a Dal, reply and comment once and awhile. I find this list of dogs to be missing a
breed. The Dal. I find Dalmations are percieved in opposite extremes. Either people think they're just like the dogs in
the movies or absolute nutcases. I was told by the SCPA in Vancouver that Dal's are listed in the top 5 in terms of bites.
I've always been personally sensitive about this.
I've been bitten by a Chow. No fault of it's own....I was wrestling with his owner during the dog's first party that friend was having.
Anyways, with all this legislations, isn't it obvious that
breeders and not breeds are the result of banned breeds. I own a few copies of Dogs Canada and Dogs USA mags and am constantly analyzing the ads of breeders. If you notice some of the the Cane Corso, Pitt Bull and other bulldog breeds that
I've never heard of (Allapala Blue Blood?) ads, they are, to me, obviously practicing poor breeding ethics. Breeder names
like Wolfpack Security,Dogs of War (Cane Corso), Gladitor Kennels, and Mammoth Kennels (Pitties). Not only that pics are of those showing dogs with short cropped ears, dogs more ripped that Gov.Arnold, and just not normal looking dogs.
To me it is so obvious whom these dogs are being marketed to and if the Government know's what's what, well I would hope that the politicains are smart enough to see this. I hope I didn't mention any legit. breeder. My apologies.
February 20th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Hi just want to add to my comment.
Most of the small breeds listed in the breeders index of the smaller dogs listed on Lucky's post depicts dogs in either floral, Victorian, or "feathery" settings. So to me it's so obvious that the way dogs are being marketed is shaping perception. If the Government would use their energy for fighting breeding practices instead of BREEDS, I think things would be better. I'm wondering if England or other parts of Europe have laws against breeds of breeding ehtics...If anyone knows, would love to read.
February 20th, 2004, 03:04 PM
Every state and city has different top 5 breeds for biting.
And yes to what LR said.You are getting freaks breeding these breeds.They are not breeding to inprove.And if breeding them to be bigger and have more muscle is improving,I say he!! no.
No licenced reputable breeder does this.I have been to many dog shows.All dogs that i have seen,including the Staffordshire Bull Terrier where standard breeds.They were not bigger or stronger.They were perfect.
I did a search on the Mammoth Kennel....OMG...I was disgusted.
I have never known a licenced reputable breeder to have their sire or dam APB do weight pull.
As for blaming breeders,yes the irresponsible ones.Who do I blame?The punks that the hands these breeds get into.
I own 2 GSD's...And I have to admit,I have met a few not so friendly ones.Was it the breed?No.It was the irresponsible owners..
A few months ago,here in Hamilton,a woman took her 10 month old GSD to a school yard off leash.The pup,yes still a pup bit a little girl.Can you believe that he also bit 5 kids previous to this.He was put on house quarenteen.Never heard another thing about it.It was on the news.
February 20th, 2004, 03:21 PM
The Center for Disease Control put out a much different list. I am sure that it was for dogs that did more damage. It isn't so much that our dogs bite more, it is that they do more damage. I would much rather be bitten by a maltese then a rottweiler. And having been bitten by a young male rottie, I know what I am talking about.
The fact of the matter is, a couple of years ago, a pomeranian killed an infant. Last summer a poodle ate it's owners lip while she slept. I certainly don't see anyone running around trying to ban poms and poodles.
February 20th, 2004, 03:23 PM
Yes, so ban the irresponsible breeders. Start from there. If and only if there is a huge commitment to uphold what would hopefully, and should be mandated properly. Then the numbers of poorly bred dogs are a bit down....then properly issue ownership for dogs. And if suspected of owning a vicous dog, investigation, heavy, heavy fine should be in place. Fines should then keep people working on this new sector (creating jobs) and also investigation could lead elsewhere. Bad dogs, bad people right? Or is it the other way around? In an ideal world, maybe...
February 20th, 2004, 04:00 PM
What about the Doxie who mauled a weeks-old infant to death? I actually saw someone say "He probably thought (the baby) was a badger.":confused:
And you have to wonder where the parents were while this taking place.
February 20th, 2004, 04:59 PM
This is a fantastic topic :D Great discussion all I love it!
Isn't it funny how each province or state has different top ten/five biters!
Its so funny what all these 'legislations' end up doing.....they end up causing people to get other dogs that are not on the list but they have no idea about that dog breed because they dont' need to right! Hey if the city/township says that this breed isn't on the list then why bother doing any breed research.
So ya end up with a bunch of people who get Husky's, Dalmations because of cutsie Disney pictures
Then labs and hounds again from cutsie Disney pictures
Sure its' not on the list but we all know how difficult each of these breeds can be!
It never seems to fail. You can get one incident occur with a specific breed going nuts and injuring/killing someone and the entire breed suffers for it.
What would that say about us as human beings?
Do we not have people that go absolutely insane?
We're worse , humans that is. We breed serial killers! (btw anyone seen Larry Kings special on the Green River Killer - disgusting shocking horrid)
I never heard of any town/city banning Eskimo's or JRTs and
THEY can be really bitey and snappy!
So it's easier to banish the breed then educate the people and provide proper licencing processes. Not the rinky dink ones I've seen.
Yes Mona the Toronto Humane Society and many of the shelters in this area are flooded with Pit/s and Pit x's.
I think I"m going to write Stanley Coren an email if I can...he's a great trainer www.stanleycoren.com
It would be great if he dedicated one of his tv show segments to this issue! Good idear ?? I think so.
February 20th, 2004, 05:04 PM
Luba,I just posted about his show earlier.LMAO...
Great minds think alike.:D
I LOVE his show.:D
February 20th, 2004, 06:19 PM
Another interesting article:
Aggressive dog breeds? (http://dogs.about.com/cs/breedprofiles/a/mean_dogs.htm)
I never heard of any town/city banning Eskimo's or JRTs and
Yes, but they are small and cute, and the media has no interest in them.
Who wants to hear about small, fluffy white dogs, or the Frasier "Eddy" dog biting? NO profit in doing stories like that.:mad:
February 20th, 2004, 08:14 PM
I like this from that link you gave LR
What is needed is an implementation of much harsher laws dealing with animal cruelty, neglect, and, yes, maybe we should be looking at licensing dog owners along with their pets. Convicted of animal neglect or cruelty? Then you shall never own another animal again. Why should people be given another pet to ruin?
Maybe I could start one about the little bugger JRT around the corner and the Pomeranian mental case I know!
Mona Mona we're two peas in a pod
or two kibbles in a dish u take ur pick
some interesting tid bits
SUMMARY (1,237 records)
Injuries associated with dog bites and dog attacks were sustained most frequently by 5-9 year olds (28.5%). Of all injuries related to dog bites and dog attacks, 57.9% were to males. Injuries occurred most often in the summer, 37.7%, and most frequently between the hours of 4 and 8 p.m., (32.7%). Most injuries occurred at the victim's own home, 34.2% or other home, 30.3%. The majority of injuries occurred when the patient had no direct interaction with the dog, 28.9%. Injuries that required advice only or minor treatment accounted for 57.9% of patients, while 36.8% of patients needed medical follow-up after leaving the emergency department and 4.5% were admitted to hospital. Overall, the most frequent types of injury were bites, 73.1%, and the body part most often affected was the face, 40.5%.
The circumstances surrounding dog bites and dog attacks in admitted patients are outlined below: 13 patients were playing with their dog. Twelve patients had no direct interaction with a dog: 9 patients were playing by themselves, 2 patients were walking past a dog in its yard, and 1 patient was delivering newspapers. Nine patients were interacting normally with a dog: 6 patients were trying to pet a dog, 2 were handling the dog's food, and 1 patient was sitting next to his dog when he was attacked by another dog. Five patients were injured while restraining or disciplining their dog. Two patients were walking or rollerblading when they were chased and bitten by a dog. One patient was bitten when she tripped and startled a sleeping dog. One patient was bitten by an injured dog. One patient was attacked by a dog while being carried by his cousin. One patient was bitten when she tried to approach a female dog with pups. Finally, a patient was letting a cat upstairs and was bitten by her own dog. In 10 patients, the circumstances involving dog bites or attacks were not specified.
And more specific to what we're talking about here you'll see what I mean:
The Centers for Disease Control study dog bite incidents, including the types of dogs most likely to bite. The breeds that the CDC considers highest risk are pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas.
THERE IS NOT ONE SMALL DOG IN THERE NOT ONE!!!!
IS THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO GET BIG BY SMALL DOGS DONT' REPORT IT???????
Then they go on to say this -
The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictibility is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards.
While visiting a friend's house in 1996, Christine Hunter of Rockland, Ont., took her eyes off her son Jamie for a few seconds. Having grown up with a Lab, her five-year-old had little fear of dogs and ran up to her friend's dalmatian to offer him a bone. The dog snapped at the child, biting his ear hard enough to draw blood. "We were lucky; it could have been his face,"
NOW THIS IS INTERESTING I NEVER HEARD THIS PUT THIS WAY BEFORE:
ALTHOUGH breeds like pit bulls are not involved in the majority of dog-biting incidents, cases in which they are involved are often the most violent
February 20th, 2004, 11:42 PM
Twelve patients had no direct interaction with a dog
You can't honestly believe that a dog, ran up out of nowhere and bit these kids. Sounds a little outragous to me.
The CDC gets its bite statistics by doing random calls to people who have turned in bite reports. Not what I would consider solid statistics.
Don't worry, if I win the lottery, we will fix this problem.
February 21st, 2004, 10:32 AM
Ummmmmm lets be 2 kibbles in a dish Luba.:D
A few months ago I read about a mother and her daughter coming home from grocery shopping.They were bringing the groceries in.The family cocker spaniel was out in the front yard.All of a sudden the dog attacked the girl for no reason.And this is the family dog.
When I was 16 I was bit twice(not serious) but my friends bull terrier mix Ringo.This dog was in a very loving home.Well taken care of.Loved people and dogs.I knew the dog and the dog knew me.Considering I was at her house everyday.And knew Ringo as a pup.Do we know why he did this?Heck no.
Here is a pic I found of my daughter at 7 months and MY first GSD Cujo.He was 4.Cujo and I had a very special bond.He stuck by me like glue.And he showed that by doing the same with my daughter.He loved my daughter.He was right beside her when she was crawling.And followed her everywhere in her walker.He was my babysitter.LOL..Was I able to leave leave the room a have them alone?Oh yeah.If she got into anything while in her walker,he pulled the walker back a bit then would sit and whine.They were the best of buddies for 9 years.I do miss him so very much.:(
February 21st, 2004, 10:41 AM
Beautiful dog, Mona - he looks like a sweetheart!:)
Just for fun, try and Find the pit bull (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html) and please don't cheat!!;)
Keep in mind all of us are fairly knowledgeable dog people, so try and imagine non-dog owners trying to ID a pit bull when there is an attack or dogfight going on.
I'd love to hear how many tries it takes you.
February 21st, 2004, 11:01 AM
Thank you so much for posting that link. I was looking almost everywhere for it last night. (If I had looked everywhere, I would have found it. LOL)
BTW, I couldn't get the pit bull first try. Or second or third. And I like to think I know my dogs pretty well. I did know that the big black and tan wasn't a pit bull though.
February 21st, 2004, 11:14 AM
Thank you LR.
He was an amazing dog.
I can not tell a lie.I took this test on another site.I got it on the first try.:D
I just got hubby to try it.He gave up on 2 tries.That's a man for you.LOL
February 22nd, 2004, 03:51 AM
hahaha, I tried that site and failed, of course :o
a couple of years ago, I've was bitten/attacked by my friend's ****z poo :rolleyes:
I was in the basement during a house party where the dog was being taunted with a pig's ear by a few idiots while he was enclosed in a crate.
he was getting highly aggitated and VERY nervous. I got my friend to take the dog out & give him the treat. I wanted to smack those ppl....
so this dog's chewing the treat 2 feet away, looking calmer, yet he jumps to attack my arms.
so much for helping him out. :rolleyes:
moral of the story: there was a REASON why he became aggressive. I was in the wrong place @ the wrong time when he was releasing his frustration.
February 28th, 2004, 01:58 PM
Yup the problem with statistics is the people who collect them LOL