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How is your dog doing on higher protein kibble?

SuperWanda
October 2nd, 2006, 11:11 AM
Hi - I have been trying a higher protein food with my two dogs called Orijen.

Just wanted to ask how other dogs are doing on higher protein.

My dogs have been on this food for about 3 weeks now and I was under the impression that they would poop less. I have been finding that they go 4 or 5 times a day! I have been giving them about 2 cups per day which is on the lower end of the recommended amount for their weight. Does the lack of fibre make this food run through the gut faster or am I overfeeding???

When we were at the park the other day, one dog went 5 times! They also have rabbit pellet type droppings which seems harder to pass. I knew that a higher protein food may constipate so I have been adding water to the kibble. Any other thoughts or experiences from other higher protein feeders?

Thanks!

technodoll
October 2nd, 2006, 11:19 AM
no problems here... poops are small and firm, twice per day. however the EVO is mixed with raw ground beef... most days he gets anywhere from 2 to 4 cups of EVO and sometimes 1 cup of "regular" dry food, so it's hard to judge. i've never feed a dog "just dry food only" ... i guess this is no help eh? LOL

on another note, he's packing on hard muscles like it's nobody's business :eek:

PS: the "rabbit poop" is typical of a grain-free diet, you see alot of that in raw-fed dogs. nothing to worry about but feel free to add some wet food mixed with the grains, or some steamed veggies, or cooked brown rice, to bulk up the stools if you don't feel comfortable with it

Prin
October 2nd, 2006, 01:10 PM
My dogs have been on this food for about 3 weeks now and I was under the impression that they would poop less. I have been finding that they go 4 or 5 times a day! I have been giving them about 2 cups per day which is on the lower end of the recommended amount for their weight. Does the lack of fibre make this food run through the gut faster or am I overfeeding???I've got the same thing going on here. :shrug: And for some reason, Jemma's got bad dandruff only on her head now.:frustrated:

technodoll
October 2nd, 2006, 01:34 PM
could the dandruff have anything to do with her water adventures over the weekend?... :shrug:

meb999
October 2nd, 2006, 04:39 PM
Could it be because Evo has sunflower oil and SG has canola oil? I know Buster's coat looks it's best when the food has canola in it.
Maybe you could add a few drops of canola oil to her RM? Might help loosen up her stools too....

Prin
October 2nd, 2006, 04:41 PM
No, techno, they didn't go swimming. They just got their feets wet. And the 'ruff started before that. Well, I got them some wild salmon oil.. So I'll start with that and see what happens.:shrug:

technodoll
October 2nd, 2006, 04:42 PM
oh i thought they had had a swim, lucky ducks! :D yep fish oil is good... :)

SuperWanda
October 2nd, 2006, 04:57 PM
Thanks for the suggestions!

I will try adding some moister foods and see if that helps. They really seem to love this food so I'd like to stay on it - as long as I don't have an allergy outburst that is.

Dandruff on the head - I can't help with that one. I think the fish oil is a good suggestion.

SunGurl372
October 2nd, 2006, 05:13 PM
I bought a small bag of the EVO RM this week. I haven't fed it solo to Harley yet, as I'm still working through a pretty new bag of Timberwolf Organics Dakota Bison. So I'm doing a 50 / 50 mix of the two at each meal. I like the idea that mixing them ups her protein intake.

So for now, she gets two cups of kibble daily. In the morning I add in wild salmon oil and in the evenings I usually put in some kind of mixer and some added water. Usually it's a bit of Merrick's canned (any formula without poultry), but some times I use tuna, or leftover steak and baked potato, etc.

If she does well, I may switch her entirely onto the EVO RM and drop TO. Have to see I guess. So far, I've seen no problems with her bowel movements, she eats well, no changes in skin condition as yet.

catsnatcher-CDN
October 2nd, 2006, 05:44 PM
This past Sunday, I bought Innova EVO high protein for Max (5 year old, overweight, less active, dobie mix). It's his second day on it. It was suggested that I only give him 1 cup of kibble a day.

This is day 2. He's already had diahrrea once.

Prin
October 2nd, 2006, 06:38 PM
But you're transitioning gradually, right, catsnatcher?:fingerscr

catsnatcher-CDN
October 2nd, 2006, 06:53 PM
No. I thought he'd adapt well. Today I gave him 1 cup in the morning of Evo and half a cup of the old stuff at night.
I was told to feed him only once a day, so I'm slowly gonna cut the night feeding.

I was also told to not feed him once a week so his body can detox....

I have no idea what I'm doing....my poor dobie :(

SunGurl372
October 2nd, 2006, 07:05 PM
You're trying your best for him, so that counts for alot!

I couldn't imagine only feeding Harley once a day. She's not a voracious eater, so she needs the split meal schedule.

As for switching, each dog is pretty unique. Harley is very sensitive to food changes, so going to a 50 / 50 mix right off the bat with her is fairly aggressive. She's been on the blend for three days with no signs of problems, so I've been pleasantly surprised.

Maybe you can back off a bit on the EVO, and work it in a bit more gradually?

rainbow
October 2nd, 2006, 07:15 PM
Why were you told to only feed him once a day?

Prin
October 2nd, 2006, 07:23 PM
Catsnatcher, I'd just feed a little evo first, with the old food and gradually increase the evo and reduce the other stuff. You have to be really, really gradual with him because last I remembered he was on commercial food, no? That's got quite a few digestive aids in there, and he has to learn to digest on his own.

You really don't want to do it too suddenly.:o

catsnatcher-CDN
October 2nd, 2006, 08:38 PM
I don't know why i was told to feed him once a day.

So I'll do 1/2 cup of EVO 1/2 a cup of the old stuff.

Should I separate that 1 cup into 2 feedings or just one?
He's overweigh at 90 something pounds

Prin
October 2nd, 2006, 08:39 PM
Gaaa!! No, not 1/2 and 1/2 yet. Start with a bit, max 1/4C of new stuff.

(and two feedings is better, but you can feed 2/3 in the morning and 1/3 at night if you want)

technodoll
October 2nd, 2006, 08:47 PM
and don't forget to up the exercise, too... helps a dog shed those pounds and build lean muscle mass :thumbs up

SunGurl372
October 2nd, 2006, 09:12 PM
Good gravy! Harley weighs in at 50 or so pounds, and she's getting two cups of kibble per day. Am I way off or what? She's not fat in the least, you can still see just the barest outline of her ribs....

Prin
October 2nd, 2006, 09:15 PM
Depends on the doggy. If you are feeding enough so your doggy's weight is stable, that's all that matters.:)

SunGurl372
October 2nd, 2006, 09:22 PM
***breathes sigh of relief***

Okay, minor freak out diverted. Honestly, I know better, but it's just so funny how the rules are so subjective to our individual pups.

Harley continues to thrive....so I remain a happy mom.

Kristin7
October 3rd, 2006, 04:17 PM
I had switched to the Evo red meat for my 8 mo old, and he seemed a lot more hyper and anxious, panting a lot, after the switch. I'm not sure if that was from the food, but he's been switched over to Canidae recently. So far I can't really tell a difference as he's not been on it very long.

technodoll
October 3rd, 2006, 04:22 PM
there is no proven link between high-protein diets and hyperactivity in cats and dogs, on the contrary... some interesting reading, if so inclined: http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

PROTEIN AND HYPERACTIVITY
Most dog caretakers at one time or another have heard this pronouncement... "High protein diets can make dogs hyper!" I have searched the literature and contacted nutrition specialists regarding this myth and nowhere can I find any scientific study that proves this unfounded contention. There are no biochemical or nutritional factors that would even make this supposition appear to be credible. Hyperactivity in dogs has numerous potential motivators, including genetic temperament predispositions, but a link between high levels of protein in a dog's diet and hyperactivity has yet to be proven.

SunGurl372
October 3rd, 2006, 04:28 PM
Harley certainly hasn't shown any inclination for hyperactivity since I've started supplementing with the EVO RM.

She's continues to be one of the world's greatest couch potatoes. :D

Prin
October 3rd, 2006, 04:41 PM
Jemma and Boo too. The only extra energy I've seen is when I go to feed them... Jemma bounces off the walls.:D

But I should say when I switched them from a commercial food (that shall remain nameless but rhymes with puke) to Wolf King, they did get more energy. But it was a healthy, awake kind of energy; not a hyperactivity thing.

technodoll
October 3rd, 2006, 04:43 PM
that shall remain nameless but rhymes with puke

ok i'm stumped, LOL! one more hint?... :o

edited: oooh ok... the beginning rhymes with "uke"... hahahahahaa! (duh)

Prin
October 3rd, 2006, 04:44 PM
Really?

Take away the P.

Kristin7
October 3rd, 2006, 04:46 PM
I did not know there was a supposed link, this is just what I observed with my dog and also knew the food was quite high in protein content. He doesn't poop any more than usual, although his stool is smaller. Was just answering the question posed originally... all dogs are different, and mine was quite lazy before the switch, esp for a puppy. The excessive panting was worrying me, so I switched him off the Evo, and this was just a few days ago. Will wait and see if the food is the difference, rather than just going by reading an article. Just because there is no proven link does not mean it is not true for some dogs or that there will not someday be a proven link.

technodoll
October 3rd, 2006, 04:56 PM
hey relax, don't get all bent out of shape... i wasn't aiming anything at you. this question has arisen here before and i thought it should be addressed, in terms of both owner experiences and researched articles :shrug: your puppy will have highs and lows, and feeding him more carbs will not make him a more quiet dog, science pretty much guarantees you that... canidae's good stuff, i wish you luck!

Prin
October 3rd, 2006, 05:09 PM
Don't worry, everybody gets techno wrong the first couple times. She means well. :D

Of course, you do know your dog better than anybody, so whatever works best for you.:)

technodoll
October 3rd, 2006, 05:17 PM
i totally mean well :D

one dog, a hundred diet possibilities, life's good! :)

Prin
October 3rd, 2006, 05:18 PM
i totally mean well :D I think that's like "cool" where you can't say it about yourself.:D

Kristin7
October 3rd, 2006, 05:44 PM
I'm sure you do mean well, thanks for the tip. However, as a scientist, I would rather look at real scientific data than go by what is said on a website sponsored by a company selling pet food (that link is not a scientific article, but maybe there are some you are referring to). I guess i don't see where science makes a guarantee here for anything. But, I haven't had time to look around for articles and was merely observing my own dog. I am somewhat worried about excessive anxious panting, it wasn't 'good' energy, but more like alarming, so I switched. He does seem a bit less anxious now, but I could be imagining things, or he could have had something else going on, who knows. Are there some other references you have found (not a website, but articles in peer-reviewed journals)? I'm sorry if this comes across as being rude or something, people sometimes get me wrong as well. I wonder if there are more accessible B-vitamins in this Evo Red meat. Certainly in humans vitamins like B12 can cause such a reaction (higher energy level).

Prin
October 3rd, 2006, 06:21 PM
Unfortunately you can't have science without the food company in the dog food business. The food companies are the only ones with the money for research.:shrug:

technodoll
October 3rd, 2006, 06:38 PM
it sure is hard to break into those university studies :frustrated: like prin said, the petfood companies are the ones with $$$... dunno how much to trust them since studies are often biased. i'd love to see some data on high-protein diets, any data. so far all i've found, is stuff we already know :shrug: if anyone has knowledge to share... big ears here! :D

Prin
October 3rd, 2006, 07:18 PM
The only major ones I know of are the Purina ones (the ones that said seniors do better on more protein).

Esaunders
October 4th, 2006, 09:10 AM
Well ... my 11 month old ES pup is doing extremely well on SG's Barking at the Moon (46% protein?)

His coat's good, his energy isn't any different, poop is smaller & he's slowly put on weight. Now he's slender instead of skinny. His appetite is betterr on this food too, making him less inclined to kibble snub.

He's also nicely muscled.

He's been on it since mid-august nd I'm pretty happy so far. I was mixing it with a lower protein kibble but he's less inclined the eat then.

Kristin7
October 4th, 2006, 11:05 AM
I usually take nutritional studies with a grain of salt, as it seems like they do have a lot of bias, and not necessarily because of the pet food companies funding them. Funding from them isn't necessarily going to skew the results in their favor. However, looking through some of the papers, you see that a lot of the studies are done w/ small sample numbers (I saw one with only 4 dogs, but most seem to have more like 20 and usually beagles although sometimes greyhounds) and only one type of dog. Will these results translate to everyone's dog? Doubtful. It is like clinical studies on humans. For years, most studies were done on white men and the results assumed to be the same for all other population groups. We are seeing now that women metabolize some drugs differently, and then you have to consider that each person and dog has their own body chemistry, so won't necessarily follow the 'norm'. I haven't found too much on behavior and high protein diet in dogs, but will post a sampling of abstracts found in pubmed. Only a couple were behavior related, the others I just thought were interesting.

Sorry, this will be long:
Chemical composition, protein quality, palatability, and digestibility of alternative protein sources for dogs.
J Anim Sci. 2005 Oct;83(10):2414-22.
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, 61801, USA.
The chemical composition and protein quality of 11 alternative protein sources (chicken products, blood products, enzyme-hydrolyzed fish protein concentrate, soybean meal, and spray-dried pork liver) were determined, and an experiment was conducted to determine palatability and digestibility of processed red blood cell-containing diets. Chicken protein sources differed in concentrations of CP, acid-hydrolyzed fat, and total AA (TAA) by 20, 31, and 24%, respectively, and GE by 1.7 kcal/g. Blood protein sources varied little in acid-hydrolyzed fat and GE concentrations, but concentrations of CP and TAA differed by 11 and 8%, respectively. Protein solubility of chicken and blood protein source categories averaged 57 and 69%, respectively. Protein solubility of enzyme-hydrolyzed fish protein concentrate, soybean meal, and spray-dried pork liver was 53, 67, and 26%, respectively. Based on calculations from immobilized digestive enzyme assay values, lysine digestibility averaged approximately 80.4 and 81.7% for blood and chicken protein sources, respectively. Lysine digestibility values for soybean meal and spray-dried pork liver were 89 and 77%, respectively. A chick protein efficiency ratio (PER) assay showed that chicken protein sources had high protein quality values, as the PER ranged from 2.7 to 5.3, whereas blood protein sources had poor protein quality (PER values less than 1.5). Enzyme-hydrolyzed fish protein concentrate, spray-dried pork liver, and soybean meal had high protein quality (PER values greater than 2.8). In the dog palatability and digestibility experiments, a corn and chicken-based diet supplemented with either 0 or 3% processed red blood cells was tested. The palatability test showed that dogs consumed more of the diet that contained 0% vs. 3% processed red blood cells. The intake ratio for the 3% processed red blood cells diet was 0.34. Nutrient digestibilities did not differ, except for CP, where the digestibility was greater (P = 0.01) for dogs consuming the 0% processed red blood cells diet. These data suggest that chemical composition and quality of alternative protein sources differ greatly among ingredients within the same category. Palatability data suggest that a processed red blood cells-containing diet is not highly palatable but, when this diet was offered as only one food, dogs demonstrated no aversion response but some decrease in protein digestion.


Fish meals, fish components, and fish protein hydrolysates as potential ingredients in pet foods.
Anim Sci. 2006 Oct;84(10):2752-65.
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, Illinois 61801, USA.
An experiment to determine the chemical composition and protein quality of 13 fish substrates (pollock by-products, n = 5; fish protein hydrolysates, n = 5; and fish meals, n = 3) was conducted. Two of these substrates, salmon protein hydrolysate (SPH) and salmon meal with crushed bones (SMB), were used to determine their palatability as components of dog diets. Pollock by-products differed in concentrations of CP, crude fat, and total AA by 71, 79, and 71%, respectively, and GE by 4.1 kcal/g. Fish protein hydrolysates and fish meals were less variable (approximately 18, 14, and 17%, and 1.4 kcal/g, respectively). Biogenic amine concentrations were much higher in fish protein hydrolysates as compared with pollock by-products and fish meals. Pollock liver and viscera had the highest total fatty acid concentrations; however, red salmon hydrolysate and SMB had the highest total PUFA concentrations (49.63 and 48.60 mg/g, respectively). Salmon protein hydrolysate had the highest protein solubility in 0.2% KOH. Based on calculations using immobilized digestive enzyme assay values, lysine digestibility of fish meal substrates was comparable to in vivo cecectomized rooster assay values and averaged approximately 90.3%. Also, pollock milt, pollock viscera, red salmon hydrolysate, and sole hydrolysate had comparable values as assessed by immobilized digestive enzyme assay and rooster assays. A chick protein efficiency ratio (PER) assay compared SMB and SPH to a whole egg meal control and showed that SMB had high protein quality (PER = 3.5), whereas SPH had poor protein quality (PER value less than 1.5). However, using whole egg meal as the reference protein, both fish substrates were found to be good protein sources with an essential AA index of 1.0 and 0.9 for SMB and SPH, respectively. In the dog palatability experiments, a chicken-based control diet and 2 diets containing 10% of either SPH or SMB were tested. Dogs consumed more of the SPH diet compared with the control, and similar amounts of the SMB and control diets. The intake ratios for each were 0.73 and 0.52, respectively. Salmon protein hydrolysate was especially palatable to dogs. These data suggest that chemical composition and nutritional quality of fish substrates differ greatly and are affected by the specific part of the fish used to prepare fish meals and fish protein hydrolysates.

Influence of obesity on plasma lipid and lipoprotein concentrations in dogs.
Am J Vet Res. 2005 Jan;66(1):81-6.
Affinity-Petcare, 08174, Barcelona, Spain
OBJECTIVE: To determine effects of obesity and diet in dogs on plasma lipid and lipoprotein concentrations by assaying plasma leptin and ghrelin concentrations and determining total plasma cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations as well as the concentrations of cholesterol and triglycerides in various lipoprotein classes (ie, very-low-density, low-density, and high-density lipoproteins). ANIMALS: 24 Beagles; 12 lean (mean [+/- SEM] body weight, 12.7 +/- 0.7 kg) and 12 chronically obese (21.9 +/- 0.8 kg) dogs of both sexes, between 1 and 9 years old. PROCEDURES: Total plasma cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations; lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations; and plasma ghrelin, leptin, free fatty acids, insulin, and glucose concentrations were measured and compared between lean and obese dogs, both of which were fed a complete and balanced maintenance diet. Chronically obese dogs were subsequently fed a high-protein low-energy diet to evaluate effects of diet composition on plasma lipid and lipoprotein measurements. RESULTS: Chronic obesity resulted in a significant decrease in plasma ghrelin concentration and a significant increase in plasma leptin, cholesterol, and triglyceride concentrations in dogs. High total plasma cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations resulted from increased cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations in all lipoprotein fractions. In obese dogs, modification of diet composition resulted in beneficial effects on plasma lipid and leptin concentrations, even before weight loss was observed. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Correlations exist between obesity and plasma measurements (ie, lipoproteins, leptin, insulin, and ghrelin) commonly associated with obesity. Modification of diet composition to control energy intake improves plasma lipid and leptin concentrations in obese dogs.

Corn hybrid affects in vitro and in vivo measures of nutrient digestibility in dogs.
J Anim Sci. 2005 Jan;83(1):160-71.
Department of Animal Sciences, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana 61801, USA.
Corn is a commonly used ingredient in dry pet foods because there is a stable supply and it is a relatively inexpensive source of nutrients. Corn hybrids are available that are higher in CP and amylose and lower in phytate concentration than conventional hybrids. Approximately 500 mg of high-protein (HP), high-protein, low-phytate (HPLP), and high-amylose (HA) corn were compared with conventional (CONV) corn and amylomaize starch (AM) in triplicate and exposed to pepsin/hydrochloric acid and pancreatin to simulate hydrolytic digestion. Substrate remaining after this was used to determine in vitro colonic fermentation. Organic matter disappearances as a result of hydrolytic digestion were >80% for CONV, HP, and HPLP, whereas HA (60.7%) and AM (43.7%) were lower (P < 0.05). Total digestion (TD) values after hydrolytic digestion and 8 h of fermentation using canine fecal inoculum were greater (P < 0.05) for CONV, HP, and HPLP vs. HA and AM. The residue left after hydrolytic digestion of all substrates was poorly fermented. Five ileal-cannulated dogs were fed each corn hybrid at approximately 31% of the diet in a 5 x5 Latin square design. Dogs fed diets containing HP corn had higher (P < 0.05) ileal OM digestibility (70.3%) and tended (P < 0.10) to have higher DM digestibility (64.6%). Ileal starch digestibilities were lower (P < 0.05) for dogs fed HA (64.0%) and AM (63.0%). Ileal digestibilities of essential (71.2%), nonessential (67.4%), and total (69.0%) AA tended to be higher (P < 0.10) for HP diets compared with CONV (66.4, 62.4, and 64.0%, respectively). Total-tract DM, OM, CP, and GE digestibilities (77, 82, 77, and 84%, on average, respectively) were higher (P < 0.05) for dogs fed CONV, HP, and HPLP than for those fed AM (66.9, 71.6, 72.6, and 76.5%) and HA (60.6, 65.7, 69.7, and 71.5%). Total-tract fat digestibilities were lower (P < 0.05) for dogs fed HA diets (86.6%) than for all other treatments (91.0%, on average). Total-tract starch digestibilities were higher (P < 0.05) for dogs fed CONV, HP, and HPLP (98%, on average) compared with HA (72.8%) and AM (76.5%). No differences were detected among treatments in fecal bifidobacteria, lactobacilli, or Clostridium perfringens concentrations. The experiments demonstrated that HP and HPLP corn had hydrolytic digestion and fermentation characteristics similar to those of CONV corn, whereas HA resulted in similar responses to AM, a well-established resistant starch ingredient.

Effect of dietary protein content on behavior in dogs.
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996 Feb 1;208(3):376-9
Department of Surgery, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, North Grafton, MA 01536, USA.
OBJECTIVE--To determine the effect that feeding diets containing a low (17%), medium (25%), or high (32%) protein content would have on behavior in dogs. DESIGN--Prospective, controlled study. ANIMALS--12 dogs with dominance aggression, 12 dogs with hyperactivity, 12 dogs with territorial aggression, and 14 control dogs without behavioral problems. PROCEDURE--Dogs were fed each of the diets for a 2-week period, and owners were instructed to score their dogs' behavior on a daily basis. RESULTS--Behavior of the dogs with dominance aggression, dogs with hyperactivity, and control dogs was unchanged by the dietary manipulations. Territorial aggression was significantly reduced when dogs were fed the low- or medium-protein diet, compared with territorial aggression when fed the high-protein diet. Post hoc analysis indicated that this effect was attributable to a marked reduction in aggression in a subset of the group (n = 7) in which territorial aggression was a result of fear. CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS--Results of this study suggest that a reduction in dietary protein content is not generally useful in the treatment of behavior problems in dogs, but may be appropriate in dogs with territorial aggression that is a result of fear.

Weight Loss in Obese Dogs: Evaluation of a High-Protein, Low-Carbohydrate Diet
Marianne Diez3, Patrick Nguyen*, Isabelle Jeusette, Claire Devois , Louis Istasse and Vincent Biourge
Animal Nutrition Unit, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Liège, Liège, Belgium; * Department of Nutrition, National Veterinary School of Nantes, Nantes, France and Royal Canin, Centre de Recherche, Aimargues, France

Obesity and excess body weight are estimated to affect approximately 25% of dogs receiving veterinary care in Western countries (1,2). They are recognized as the most common nutritional diseases in companion animals (3). Energy restriction both during and after weight loss is the cornerstone to achieve and maintain optimal body condition. An important concern with energy restricted diet, however, is to cover all the requirements for essential nutrients, especially protein. In obese humans and animals, increasing dietary protein during weight loss programs has been shown to maintain lean body mass (4,5). The purpose of this study was therefore to assess the effect of a high-protein low-starch weight-reduction diet in the management of canine obesity.
In a preliminary study of client-owned dogs nine overweight or obese dogs (8 females and 1 male) with mean ages, body weights and body condition scores (BCS) of 8 y (range 3–10), 30 kg (13.5–48) and 4.6/5 (4.5–5 in a 5-point scale), respectively were recruited. Mean excess body weight was 30% (11–58). History and clinical examination revealed inactivity or lethargy (n = 5), impaired breathing (n = 3) and locomotion problems (n = 2) but all other variables were within normal limits.
Treatment consisted of feeding a high-protein, low-starch diet at 40–55% of maintenance energy requirements (MER) for the dog’s estimated optimal body weight until it reached optimum body condition. Dogs were fed twice daily and sessions of exercise of at least 20 min/d were recommended to prevent excess protein catabolism and to minimize losses of fat-free mass (FFM).
The time necessary to reach the target weight and a BCS of 3 ranged from 4 to 38 wk (mean ± SEM: 18.3 ± 3.8). The rate of weight loss varied from 0.8 to 3.1% (1.9 ± 0.3) per wk. Weight loss improved or suppressed the inactivity, lethargy, impaired breathing and locomotion problems initially reported by the owners.

In conclusion, in the experimental study, although rates of weight loss slightly differed between reducing diets, our data suggest that higher protein intake might reduce lean body mass losses. Energy restriction should be higher in female dogs and validated over time to ensure regular weight loss. From our field study, it appears that our test diet allowed safe and efficient weight loss.


Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs.
DeNapoli JS, Dodman NH, Shuster L, Rand WM, Gross KL.
Department of Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, Grafton, MA 01536, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effect of high- and low-protein diets with or without tryptophan supplementation on behavior of dogs with dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity. DESIGN: Prospective crossover study. ANIMALS: 11 dogs with dominance aggression, 11 dogs with territorial aggression, and 11 dogs with hyperactivity. PROCEDURE: In each group, 4 diets were fed for 1 weeks each in random order with a transition period of not < 3 days between each diet. Two diets had low protein content (approximately 18%), and 2 diets had high protein content (approximately 30%). Two of the diets (1 low-protein and 1 high-protein) were supplemented with tryptophan. Owners scored their dog's behavior daily by use of customized behavioral score sheets. Mean weekly values of 5 behavioral measures and serum concentrations of serotonin and tryptophan were determined at the end of each dietary period. RESULTS: For dominance aggression, behavioral scores were highest in dogs fed unsupplemented high-protein rations. For territorial aggression, [corrected] tryptophan-supplemented low-protein diets were associated with significantly lower behavioral scores than low-protein diets without tryptophan supplements. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: For dogs with dominance aggression, the addition of tryptophan to high-protein diets or change to a low-protein diet may reduce aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, tryptophan supplementation of a low-protein diet may be helpful in reducing aggression
Erratum in:
J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000 Oct 1;217(7):1012.
Comment in:
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2000 Oct 1;217(7):988-9.
Questions tryptophan dosage and pain tolerance.
Messonnier S.

Scott_B
October 4th, 2006, 11:26 AM
umm, coles notes anyone? :p

Kristin7
October 4th, 2006, 01:14 PM
Sorry :) If you want to read more of some of them, some were free, but others require a subscription to a society or journal to gain access. Go to www.pubmed.gov and search for these citations, or just search for whatever you are wondering about. I didn't see too much about behavior and high protein diets, except those 2 on the list. And the last one has some comments and a correction, so not sure what was up with that. I wouldn't go quoting it, that's for sure. Pubmed doesn't catalog every article in every journal, so there could be studies out there, I just couldnt' find them. Overall, just scanning thru i'd say high protein diets are good, at least, if the protein sources are high quality. Esp good if your dog needs to lose weight... I didn't see anything saying not to feed dogs a high protein diet. Anyway, my dog seemed jittery on the high protein Evo, could have been from the protein, or anything else in the food (or not from the food at all). I don't know. I do like both the Evo and the Canidae better than the Science Diet lamb and rice he was on, he is digesting his food faster (this is good because he gets carsick) and has smaller stool, although it is somewhat soft. He may just need more time to adjust to a new food.

mafiaprincess
October 4th, 2006, 05:00 PM
Cider's on a mix of leftover old barking at the moon, innova freeze dried, evo rm, and dvp ultra. So 3 high protein, one not.. and she's got the smallest poops ever, and my active pooper has finally stopped doing 5 poops anytime we are active.

I just hope that higher protein really will be okay long term. Being mill I have no idea of potential medical issues to look for from her background.

Scott_B
October 4th, 2006, 06:43 PM
So is this high protien supposed to be fine for all aged dogs or just adults? This pretty much goese agaisnt everything I've been told regarding large breed puppies.

mafiaprincess
October 4th, 2006, 08:47 PM
I don't think personally I'd feed high protein kibble to any large or extra large breed puppy. Could get your dog to grow faster than is healthy, potentially leading to complications or problems like pano.

Once grown though I don't see the problem.

technodoll
October 4th, 2006, 08:50 PM
so then... a raw diet is NOT high in protein, right? :confused: it promotes slow and steady growth for puppies, optimal for large & giant breeds... no pano, no growth spurts, no porous bones... ?

mafiaprincess
October 4th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I don't see raw issues hun. Never heard of people having problems. Only heard of pups growing too fast on 'normal' doggie food diets that were on the higher end of the protein scale, like 26-28 instead of 22-24.

Think Greaterdane had a pup a while back that had weirdly splayed feet.. Was growing too fast on a higher protein diet, but not high high protein. Needed like 22% to get that pup to be normal and fix his feet.

Prin
October 4th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Even the girly on the dogfood project doesn't think high protein kibbles are good for large breed puppies...:shrug:

technodoll
October 4th, 2006, 08:59 PM
awe poor puppy... did the feet issue correct itself, do you know?...

i'm just confused now, some people on this forum say raw diets are not high in protein, others say they are. it's like the more i know, the less i know! :eek: oh well... i won't analyse it and just keep doin' what i'm doin'... :rolleyes: (but i'd still like to know, LOL!)

did i just threadjack??!!

Prin
October 4th, 2006, 09:00 PM
Personally, I don't think that raw is as high as 42% by weight, no matter how you do the math about it.

mafiaprincess
October 4th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Yeah, slowed growth fixed his feet. After seeing that though, it makes me really want to warn people about dog's growing too too fast, you know?

I know Techno.. everyone says raw is super high in protein, but somehow or another it isn't the same or equal I don't think.. Not that I know enough BARF feeders, or BARF feeders that fed it to pups to know who had issues how.. I've only heard about the kibble folk feeding slightly higher protein than average and their tons of issues. Not everyone by any means, but enough people that it makes you really wonder. And then I wonder now that there is a variety of grain free diets even higher in protein available now, What that might do to a puppy's growth..

technodoll
October 4th, 2006, 10:22 PM
what do you guys think of this article?...

http://www.b-naturals.com/Jan2004.php

Prin
October 4th, 2006, 10:29 PM
From the purina one:
"This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first half-year of life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent does not negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs. The research also confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental effects on liver and kidney functioning."First 6 months isn't enough. How about rechecking when they're 5 and seeing how close to arthritis they have become? That's when it counts. At 6 months, they're not even 1/3 grown yet.

And the Euk one right below it states the same study over again. Hmm... the next .edu one too... :shrug:

Therefore we now advise to raise dogs, vulnerable for these skeletal diseases, on a balanced food with a calcium content decreased to 0.8 or 0.9% on dmb (dry matter basis)."This is must-know knowledge for any large breed puppy raiser. Calcium is definitely the most important factor, IMO, in regulating bone growth.

Scott_B
October 5th, 2006, 05:34 AM
Exactly Prin. My pup just turned 6 months on Sat. He was 70lbs. He probably has to put on another 50-60lbs and wont mature fully for a few years. So the affects of this diet may not be visable until hes much older and larger.

As for the raw protien levels, I've always been told its closer to 21-23%.

technodoll
October 5th, 2006, 09:23 AM
how about a photo of that big beautiful boy of yours? :D

SuperWanda
October 5th, 2006, 10:00 AM
I thought there was a long discussion in a previous post about raw protein compared to dry??? Percent protein vs absolute and the like. I thought that the conclusion was that the 40% is probably close to raw %??? I don't know, I was confused at the time and am still confused :frustrated:

I'm still a little cautious with this high protein kibble. I had to take my one dog to the vet the other day because she was whining when she was trying to go to the bathroom. She is the one with the anal gland issues. Although she has always had problems she has never had them to this degree. The vet expressed her glands. Very painful for her and I am to continue to apply warm compresses to the area for a couple of days. Bring her back tomorrow if she is still sore - but she thought it was likely the full glands which have irritated the surrounding tissue. No infection thankfully!

Although my vet supports higher protein foods - the lack of fibre may be contributing to her glands filling up??? She said that although the poops may be firm, they may not be bulky enough for her to empty the glands. Her glands are also set back a little further than they would be normally.

I feel so bad for her - she is so sad :sad: I am considering going back to a food with more grains.

If anyone has any suggestions for a food that is good for dogs with anal gland troubles please let me know. Allergies, anal glands. This is getting complicated!!!:yell:

technodoll
October 5th, 2006, 10:08 AM
why don't you just feed the grainless kibble but add some healthy, natural fibre? such as canned green beans (drained & rinsed) chopped into bits, or babyfood veggies (peas, beans, etc) as a treat, or sprinkle some Benefibre on the kibble, etc? :)

SuperWanda
October 5th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Thanks Techno - I was just reading about some good additions like pitted prunes, pumpkin or a couple of tsp. of oat bran.

What is benefiber??? I'll have to look that one up. Ok I just did - it is guar gum. Now what is that??? - it is from the guar bean.

I have heard that fibersmart capsules are good - for people that is. I think those contain flax and borage seed fibre. But I guess some people say too much flax can make some dogs itch.

I guess there are many varieties of fibre!!! :thumbs up

SuperWanda
October 5th, 2006, 12:12 PM
So - I know that adding things like veggies will add more fiber but will it make the stool too soft?

I guess what I'm aiming for is a bulky yet firm stool. Would that be optimum for clearing the anal glands??? And what foods would therefore achieve this result???

I never thought in my life that I would be calculating the optimum consistency of poo! :eek:

Scott_B
October 5th, 2006, 01:01 PM
how about a photo of that big beautiful boy of yours? :D

:thumbs up

http://www.scottsite.ca/Rosco/slides/Oct1061.JPG
http://www.scottsite.ca/Rosco/slides/Oct106.JPG

meb999
October 5th, 2006, 06:24 PM
your boy is really filling out well!! I remember the first pics you posted of him, he was so much smaller. What a handsome big boy he's becoming. I love mastiffs....and boxers, and great danes, and labs, heck I love all dogs!!

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 01:29 AM
Lookin' good!:)

Just another comment to add... Jemma is still drooling on this food. It's like the food unblocked the saliva ducts and just let it all flow. :sick: And on the downside, she's always hungry now... She just stares at me with this intensity for long periods of time and I definitely know what she's thinking...:(

Scott_B
October 6th, 2006, 05:30 AM
Prin, may I suggest a few drool towels from the dollar store :thumbs up

We have the placed all over the house, just in case :p

And thanks for the kind words! Yes hes growing very well.

Kristin7
October 6th, 2006, 09:53 AM
Some interesting reading below... trying to answer the question about large breed puppies and protein content. Not sure if high protein is a problem, and did read that not enough protein is. Protein must be high quality, though. How much is enough? I do wish that recommended levels for various breeds/sizes were known, but haven't seen anything like that published. It seems that what is most important is a correctly balanced diet (whatever that means), and yes, calcium intake must be watched, but that is not the whole story as other vitamins/minerals will affect its absorption. Also important is not to overfeed growing large breed puppies (no free feeding!). But, Scott is right, followup should be done on these dogs when they're older. Beautiful dog, by the way! These studies all seem to have their faults in some way and it is good to read them critically, and go to the original study, not to just read an article describing the study, as that is how results get misinterpreted. I have read articles claiming supporting evidence cited in another article, went back and read the other article myself only to find out the authors are wrong/misinterpreting what said article is claiming. Also, depending on the researchers methods, results can seem contradictory between studies. If things are not done exactly the same way, it is certainly possible and even likely to get different results. This isn't meaning the results are necessarily wrong or even contradictory, but that nutrition in animals is quite complicated and it is difficult to zero in on one factor responsible for things that go wrong w/ our dogs, such as arthritis in large breeds. I would guess to do better studies would be quite expensive and time consuming, so they do what they can with less dogs and less time. Really, if however you are feeding your pet seems to be working for him or her, I'd keep doing it, and if you feel like something is not right, keep looking for the right food or combo of foods until your pet is healthy and happy (and we get great advice about that here in this forum!) What works for some may not for others. Sorry for such a long post...

http://www.vetsurgspec.com/print/news2.html

http://www.ilovemypet.com/jackart.html

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:CdPtwpqeq4IJ:www.vetshow.com/download/purina/hazewink.pdf+large+breed+puppy+diet+%22protein+con tent%2

Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake.
J Nutr. 1991 Nov;121(11 Suppl):S107-13.
Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands.
Feeding a dog of a large breed with a diet exceeding the National Research Council (1974) recommendations for energy, protein, calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D may result in disturbances of skeletal development. The effects of excess energy and various calcium:phosphorous ratios per se have been reported by others. The role of dietary protein, especially with regard to calcium metabolism and skeletal development, in large breed-dogs is reported in this article. Seventeen Great Dane pups, 7 wk of age, were divided into three groups. During 18 wk each group received isoenergetic dry food (approximately 15 kJ metabolizable energy/g) containing 31.6, 23.1 or 14.6% protein on dry matter basis. No differences were found among the high (H-Pr), normal (N-Pr) and low protein (L-Pr) groups for the height at the shoulder. Significant differences were found between the H-Pr and L-Pr groups for body weight and plasma albumin and among all three groups for plasma urea. The differences in protein intake per se had no demonstrable consequences for calcium metabolism and skeletal development. A causative role for dietary protein in the development of osteochondrosis in dogs is unlikely.


http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/81/6/1568
Hormonal regulation of calcium homeostasis in two breeds of dogs during growth at different rates1
M. A. Tryfonidou*,2, M. S. Holl*, M. Vastenburg, M. A. Oosterlaken-Dijksterhuis*, D. H. Birkenhäger-Frenkel, W. E. van den Brom* and H. A. W. Hazewinkel*
* Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals and Division of Diagnostic Imaging,Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands; and Department of Pathology, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Implications:
Growing giant-breed dogs are more susceptible to developing skeletal disorders than small-breed dogs when raised on a diet with deficient or excessive Ca content. Even at an optimal calcium intake, giant- breed dogs have more irregular growth plates with manifestation of moderate disorders of endochondral ossification than small-breed dogs. This phenomenon may be related to differential regulation of Ca homeostasis and skeletal growth between breeds. Giant-breed dogs grow rapidly and have high plasma concentrations of growth-regulating factors, which in turn may influence vitamin D3 metabolism, whereby 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 is favored over 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3. Consequently, a relative deficiency of 24,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 may be a pathophysiological factor responsible for the increased incidence of skeletal disorders, in addition to the potential growth factors and calcitonin. It remains to be elucidated whether vitamin D3 supplementation would facilitate optimal growth in giant-breed dogs.

technodoll
October 6th, 2006, 09:57 AM
Great post Kristen! :thumbs up

Scott, hims beaaauuutimous! OMG i just want to ninja that boy! :D

Prin, send over some of that Jemma appetite cuz neither of my kids like the Evo RM :frustrated: They'll have to eat it anyways but what a let-down. sigh!!

Kristin7
October 6th, 2006, 10:10 AM
hey, here's a book (free reading on recommended nutrient requirements):
http://newton.nap.edu/catalog/10668.html

Kristin7
October 6th, 2006, 10:20 AM
bummer, you can't read all of it, only parts, but the info is out there, possibly in a library near you.

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 11:35 AM
Anybody know why Jemma spent half the night up drinking? It worries me. The horror stories are always about the kidneys and I don't want my baby's kidneys to get damaged. :(:(:(

SuperWanda
October 6th, 2006, 01:12 PM
Prin - my vet is ok with high protein diets but did say to watch for increased thirst. I'm not sure what would be considered abnormal however.

I just took my dog back to the vet and the anal gland problem is not the cause for her pain. I am a little upset about this because she is only 5 and has diskospondylosis. The x-rays I had done today shows these spiny projections that have developed off her tail bones and this is why she was having pain when going to the bathroom. She can't lift her tail. This is a type of arthritis and the inflammation and spiny projections can pinch nerves and cause pain.

Apparently the only thing to do is give her anti-inflammatory meds and glucosamine supplement. Hopefully if the inflammation is reduced than the pressure on the nerves will be reduced.

I'm just really sad about this because there is no cure and it sounds like something that gets worse with age. The vet was surprised she has it at age 5! What will her motility be like in a few years??

Maybe I will post this in another section to see if anyone else knows about this type of arthritis.

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 01:14 PM
I'm sorry for your doggy's diagnosis.:( :grouphug:

When he said "watch out" for increased thirst, did he say what it meant? :o

SuperWanda
October 6th, 2006, 01:34 PM
Not really - I took it to mean a thirst that is not typically normal for your dog. Sometimes if it is hot or dry or my dogs have had a lot of exercise they may drink more. One of my dogs takes in more water than the other. She is often up at night drinking a few times.

If you think it is a abnormal, insatiable thirst I would maybe ask the vet about it.

Is she still drinking a lot today? Peeing ok?

rainbow
October 6th, 2006, 01:38 PM
SuperWanda, I'm sorry to hear about the diagnosis too. :grouphug:

I've also heard that if your dog drinks alot more when they're being fed a high protein diet that you should stop feeding it. I'll see what i can find out.

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 01:46 PM
I was going to say she isn't drinking too much today, but just as I clicked "post reply" she started drinking again... :( Maybe tonight I'll give her just DVP and see what happens. (still drinking- just finished...) Do you think the salmon oil I've been giving her might be salty? I hate all this uncertainty crap.:frustrated:

technodoll
October 6th, 2006, 01:53 PM
prin, i would monitor her drinking behavior over the weekend and then take it from there, if she's acting perfectly normal and healthy... some days we (and dogs!) just drink more than others "just because". If you have any doubts, then next week take her in for a blood test?

lots of protein is actually GOOD for dog kidneys, not bad... i think that was just a myth, that has now been dispelled... could the girly-girl have gotten any new treats? hmm.

are we good parents, or what?! LOL :crazy:

(( hugs to jemma! ))

rainbow
October 6th, 2006, 01:57 PM
I'd stop the salmon oil and see if she still continues to drink lots. :shrug:

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 01:59 PM
Yeah, but she's had the treats all week (wellness whitefish cookies). I dunno. Maybe I'll just cut out the fish oil tonight and see what happens. It smells salty... I hope she's ok.

I was all happy with the fish oil too... It got rid of her dandruffies in two days. TWO days!
(lol rainbow- I was posting while you posted...:D)

meb999
October 6th, 2006, 03:12 PM
Buster is on half Evo half Nutro lamb/rice (I know...I know....but I got pressured into buying a big bag of it, and never had the courage to actually return it. Once it's finished, I'll be mixing the EVO with a better food.....)
And I've also noticed that ever since I upped the EVO to half, he's been drinking more. But he's peeing ok, so :shrug: Maybe Evo is just dryer then other foods? Or more dense, therefor needing more water to get absorbed?

Kristin7
October 6th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Found this rather comprehensive site about feeding that might be of interest, unless it has already been posted here somewhere.

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html

I'd be alarmed about a dog drinking more than usual, it could be kidney related, never know. Can you measure the amount your dog is drinking?

mafiaprincess
October 6th, 2006, 10:16 PM
I know a raw feeder who used evo while camping once.. said never again because he found how thirsty his dogs were was a cause for concern, but apparently it was more insatiable rather than just a little more than usual.. Though I hear on raw due to meat water content they drink less or can.. So maybe the switch for his dogs from not much to more seemed like a weird amount.

rainbow
October 6th, 2006, 11:17 PM
I couldn't find the information I was looking for. All I could find was this post from another forum:



Hi Listers,
I have been feeding my seven year old EVO for about a year now.
He has started drinking and urinating lots and lots. We did a complete senior blood panel, including a complete urine panel, all came back normal. Also no starting of Cushings. My Vet is wondering whether his food could cause this, like maybe to much salt in the kibble? Has anybody else feeding EVO had problems like this, please? Other problems?



I've never fed Evo. Been flamed hundreds of times for saying this, but I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face. Evo has to be one of the most dangerous and misleading foods on the market today. The protein levels are unheard of.

Its NOT the protein that irks me. I'm not going to say high protein diets are harmful - I don't believe htey are, per se. However, Evo goes beyond being high protein.

The fact is that raw meat is a LOW protein food when compared to the levels of protein in commercial foods. Chicken is about 16% protein. BARFers, or even home cookers will NEVER add as many protein sources in one meal to raise the levels to match Evo.

I fed raw in the past, and feed homecooked/kibble now. When preparing foods, the first rule is to add variety over time. Don't try to throw the
kitchen sink into one meal! Evo uses chicken, turkey, egg, fish, etc in one meal to get the levels to 40+%. No dog or wolf would ever eat that amount of protein sources in one day - and then continue to do so every day for months, years ...

With the high protein comes extremely high levels of phosporous. Evo can add all the calcium to balance out the cal/phos ratio, but the phos levels are STILL far exceeding safe, normal levels. Excessive phosporous is filtered out through the kidneys and is the major cause of renal dysfunction/failure. Evo can possibly burden the kidneys of succeptable dogs, especially older ones.

JMHO, but if it were me, I'd try switching to a food with moderate protein levels and a phos level of no higher than 1.0 for an older dog. It would present much less of a strain on the kidneys, which could be the main reason for the excessive thirst. Keep us updated.


**The above post is not "mine"....I'm just the messenger. ;)

technodoll
October 6th, 2006, 11:26 PM
i think Evo is a good product, used in moderation... as PART of a balanced diet :o but then again eating *anything* as a single source of food, day in and day out for years... it's asking for trouble, IMO :shrug:

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Aye there's the catch- we're looking at protein, when we should be looking at phosphorus. And I knew that too. Duh. Either way, Evo was never meant to be my doggies first food... But it was good for the transition.

technodoll
October 6th, 2006, 11:48 PM
prin what will be the secondary food, if still feeding evo, will that be just as an addition?...

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 11:52 PM
so far it's dvp sweet tater and fish... that one is pretty low protein so they should balace out. When I'm conscious again, I'll email innova for their phosporus levels.

rainbow
October 6th, 2006, 11:54 PM
Aye there's the catch- we're looking at protein, when we should be looking at phosphorus. And I knew that too. Duh. Either way, Evo was never meant to be my doggies first food... But it was good for the transition.


So, what's your plan now?

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 11:56 PM
no idea. I still haven't found a food I'm 100% satisfied with yet.

rainbow
October 6th, 2006, 11:56 PM
You posted faster than me and must have read my mind. :p

Prin
October 6th, 2006, 11:57 PM
it's ok, just because I'm feeding something doesn't mean I have a plan.:D

rainbow
October 7th, 2006, 12:01 AM
Here you go:



Innova EVO Red Meat


Moisture 10.0 %

Protein 42.0 %

Fat 22.0 %

Linoleic Acid 1.2 %

Omega 3 0.40 %

Carbohydrates 15.37 %

Fiber 2.50 %

Ash 9.77 %

Calcium 2.31 %

Phosphorous 1.34 %

Magnesium 0.15 %

Sodium 0.54 %

Potassium 0.83 %

Chloride 0.80 %

Iron 260 mg/Kg

Zinc 305 mg/Kg

Copper 18 mg/Kg

Iodine 3.2 mg/Kg

Manganese 22 mg/Kg

Selenium 0.62 mg/kg

Arginine 2.74 %

Histidine 1.06 %

Isoleucine 1.99 %

Leucine 3.31 %

Lysine 3.21 %

Methionine 1.12 %

Met-Cysteine 1.64 %

Phenylalanine 2.05 %

Phe-Tyrosine 3.65 %

Threonine 1.96 %

Tryptophan 0.38 %

Valine 2.40 %

Taurine 0 %

Choline 2877 mg/Kg

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 5.82 mg/Kg

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) 4.10 mg/Kg

Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 44 mg/Kg

Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) 4.88 mg/Kg

Folic Acid 1.29 mg/kg

Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 18 mg/Kg

Biotin 0.09 mg/Kg

Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 3 ug/Kg

Vitamin A 21209 Iu/Kg

Vitamin C 3 mg/Kg

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 2003 Iu/Kg

Vitamin E 250 Iu/Kg

Vitamin K1 0 ug/Kg

Glucosamine 0 mg/cup

Chondroitin Sulfate 0 mg/cup

Calories 1834 Kcal/lb

Calories 4035 Kcal/Kg

Calories 487 KCals/Cup

technodoll
October 7th, 2006, 12:08 AM
i read that calcium and phosphorous should be fed at the ratio of around 1.2 parts of calcium for each 1 part of phosphorous (1.2:1) - this would make the EVO a bit unbalanced, or is my math off? :confused:

rainbow
October 7th, 2006, 12:14 AM
This is the REGULAR Innova (the one I feed)



Innova


Moisture 10.0 %

Protein 24.0 %

Fat 14.0 %

Linoleic Acid 2.6 %

Omega 3 0.50 %

Carbohydrates 40.6 %

Fiber 3.0 %

Ash 7.90 %

Calcium 1.10 %

Phosphorous 1.00 %

Magnesium 0.10 %

Sodium 0.35 %

Potassium 0.65 %

Chloride 0.49 %

Iron 569 mg/Kg

Zinc 250 mg/Kg

Copper 9 mg/Kg

Iodine 1.7 mg/Kg

Manganese 47 mg/Kg

Selenium 0.31 mg/kg

Arginine 1.83 %

Histidine 0.62 %

Isoleucine 1.10 %

Leucine 1.98 %

Lysine 1.72 %

Methionine 0.73 %

Met-Cysteine 1.06 %

Phenylalanine 1.01 %

Phe-Tyrosine 1.83 %

Threonine 0.96 %

Tryptophan 0.40 %

Valine 1.32 %

Taurine 0.19 %

Choline 1737 mg/Kg

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 9.96 mg/Kg

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) 3.66 mg/Kg

Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 61 mg/Kg

Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) 5.00 mg/Kg

Folic Acid 1.55 mg/kg

Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 19 mg/Kg

Biotin 0.55 mg/Kg

Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 72 ug/Kg

Vitamin A 21000 Iu/Kg

Vitamin C 500 mg/Kg

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 786 Iu/Kg

Vitamin E 300 Iu/Kg

Vitamin K1 928 ug/Kg

Glucosamine 0 mg/cup

Chondroitin Sulfate 0 mg/cup

Calories 1895 Kcal/lb

Calories 4168 Kcal/Kg

Calories 557 KCals/Cup

Prin
October 7th, 2006, 12:02 PM
i read that calcium and phosphorous should be fed at the ratio of around 1.2 parts of calcium for each 1 part of phosphorous (1.2:1) - this would make the EVO a bit unbalanced, or is my math off? :confused:
Well, judging by the regular innova, that looks like it's almost true.

The calcium levels in Evo are pretty crazy. Definitely not suitable for large breed puppies. The phosphorus is much higher than the Wellness formulas people suspected of causing kidney failure, too.
Puppy=1.33% as fed
Chicken =1.01% as fed
Lamb=1.06% as fed
Fish=1.06% as fed
Senior=0.85% as fed
Wt. Mgt=0.93% as fed
Duck=0.96% as fed
Venison=1.26% as fed

Check out the vitamin C in evo- almost nonexistant.:confused: And no vitamin K either. No taurine... No, definitely not balanced, IMO...

And DVP sweet potato and fish:
Crude Protein 21.0% minimum
Crude Fat 10.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Calcium 1.0% minimum
Phosphorus 0.9% minimum
Omega 3 Fatty Acids 0.5% minimum
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 0.01% minimum
Omega 6 Fatty Acids 3.0% minimum

What to do, what to do!?

Prin
October 7th, 2006, 12:11 PM
Nature's variety Raw instinct (42% protein):
Calcium (min): 2.49%
Phosphorus (min): 1.43%
Vitamin E (min): 128.6 IU/kg
Vitamin C* (min): 50 mg/kg


Orijen:
Protein 40.0% (min.)
Fat 16.0% (max.)
Carbohydrate 16.0% (min.)
Moisture 10.0% (max.)
Fiber 3.0% (max.)
Calcium 1.6% (min.)
Phosphorus 1.4% (min.)

And the quest continues...

technodoll
October 7th, 2006, 12:23 PM
notice how they all say "min"... so in reality the levels could be much higher, and we have no way of knowing :eek:

Prin
October 7th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Yeah, they all say that. I don't know... Still the only food that I would trust completely (or as completely as possible, judging by the ingredients and the what we can find out) is the TO.

If I could, I'd get the TO Dakota Bison:
PROTEIN: 26%
FAT: 16%
FIBER: 3%
MOISTURE: 9%
Kcal/kg: 3,680
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.8%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.4%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/db.16.htm

Prin
October 7th, 2006, 12:30 PM
The evo is also really high ash (around 13%). Isn't ash supposed to affect the kidneys too?

technodoll
October 7th, 2006, 01:57 PM
i dunno anything anymore... sigh. :(

just thankful i'm feeding raw to eliminate most of the guesswork... we're slowly phasing out the kibble for dakotah to about 25% of his diet on average. but for those who can't or don't want to feed raw or home-cooked, yeah it's a very tricky ground to tread on, what's a person to do with all the contradictory information floating around? who to trust??

i'm off to the butcher's now to get ground beef and beef hearts... i can't say it's cheap but it's the price for my peace of mind, y'know? :shrug:

rainbow
October 7th, 2006, 02:32 PM
The evo is also really high ash (around 13%). Isn't ash supposed to affect the kidneys too?


Yes,the ash affects the kidneys as well. The ash content in EVO RM is 9.77%.

Too bad Orijen didn't have one that isn't chicken based as their calcium/phosphorus levels aren't as high. If you want higher protein than the DVP fish and sweet potato why don't you just add some extra meat to it?

meb999
October 7th, 2006, 02:39 PM
i'm off to the butcher's now to get ground beef and beef hearts... i can't say it's cheap but it's the price for my peace of mind, y'know? :shrug:

I'm so jaaaaalous!! Well, Prin if it makes you feel any better, I'm also at a loss on what to feed. Nutro smells like puke. I'm almost finished the bag, and I still have alot of EVO left, so I'll be feeding it along with god knows what!??:confused: I don't want to feed it by itself....

Prin
October 7th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Yes,the ash affects the kidneys as well. The ash content in EVO RM is 9.77%.

Too bad Orijen didn't have one that isn't chicken based as their calcium/phosphorus levels aren't as high. If you want higher protein than the DVP fish and sweet potato why don't you just add some extra meat to it?
Yeah, orijen looks the best of the high protein ones, doesn't it?

I was doing the math in my head and even if I use Evo as a supplement, it buggers everything up. Like DVP fish and sweet potato (vice versa) is too low protein and fat, so Evo RM would balance that out. But then DVP is well balanced as far as the vitamins and minerals and stuff goes, and Evo would just through that off.:frustrated: Like if I do half and half, the calcium and phosphorus would still be too high.

I think I'm back to square 1, hoping that TO comes to Montreal. Soon!

On the up side, it was the fish oil that was causing the drinking.

technodoll
October 7th, 2006, 07:08 PM
On the up side, it was the fish oil that was causing the drinking

well that is good news :) :dog:

mafiaprincess
October 7th, 2006, 09:54 PM
I'm with Prin.. This 4 way split of barking (almost gone though and I won't buy anymore SG weirdness) NV, DVP and EVO RM isn't my game plan either.. I'm not sure what I'll do when it's mainly gone, but I figure a month or to of this hopefully won't screw up Cider's body though lord only know what issues her parents had :frustrated:

rainbow
October 7th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Yeah, orijen looks the best of the high protein ones, doesn't it?

I was doing the math in my head and even if I use Evo as a supplement, it buggers everything up. Like DVP fish and sweet potato (vice versa) is too low protein and fat, so Evo RM would balance that out. But then DVP is well balanced as far as the vitamins and minerals and stuff goes, and Evo would just through that off.:frustrated: Like if I do half and half, the calcium and phosphorus would still be too high.

I think I'm back to square 1, hoping that TO comes to Montreal. Soon!

On the up side, it was the fish oil that was causing the drinking.



I think Orijen is the best of the high protein foods as well, but, I'm a tad confused. I thought you didn't want anything to do with TO because of the lousy customer service.? And, it is definitely lousy. :eek:

You liked DVP fish and sweet potato so why not just add some extra meat for the protein?

Prin
October 8th, 2006, 01:08 AM
Sorry I forgot that bit- adding meat to the DVP would be hard simply because I don't really have much meat in the house ever... (not in the budget these days). TO's customer service sucks (REALLY), but their food is the only one that seems balanced all around. :o And they did actually call woofers and got the ball rolling to get their food in there... It's a start, no?:o

technodoll
October 8th, 2006, 01:29 AM
if woofers can have the stuff on a constant supply, then you won't have to deal with TO,s sucky customer service, it sounds ideal! only... will that happen? :fingerscr

Prin
October 8th, 2006, 03:33 AM
Hopefully. Woofers was getting some pre-ordering sampley stuff soon... :fingerscr I just have to keep on them about it. :evil: If they can be the ones dealing with the customer service, then everything's good.;)

meb999
October 8th, 2006, 10:35 AM
Ok, so I posted a question about Phosphorous and EVO on a boxer board, where they highly recomend Evo. Here's the responce I got....it makes sense, no?

you have to compare apples with apples Canned EVO, just as an example, has a given crude protein level of 9%. But guess what? That's when it's inclusive of it's 78% water content. If you want to compare it directly with the dry version, you have to calculate the percentages on dry matter basis - and in that instance, the canned food has a crude protein content of 41%.

Same goes if you're trying to compare natural food with dry kibble. You're comparing apples with oranges until you calculate the content sans water. And depending on which meat and which particular part (eg. which portion of the chicken) you're talking about, then the protein content of raw meat/bones usually comes out in the range of 55-65% protein. That's significantly higher than EVO

Of course, it's still not directly comparable - natural food is metabolised differently from dry kibble. But it is far closer than imagining you can make a direct comparison between something that's 70% water and something with the water content removed. To do so is simply nonsensical.

High protein diets are NOT a cause of kidney disease. That's a myth, and more than that, a dangerous one. It sprang up simply because an early method of treating/managing dogs with kidney disease (ie. those with damaged or defective kidneys) included low protein diets. So some people leapt to the conclusion (an erroneous one) that that must mean that high protein caused damage. Wrong. Protein and phosphorus have nothing to do with it. It is nitrogen that can be an issue. But that's easily solved too - feed a high quality and digestible meat protein based diet instead of a crappy grain based one. More digestible means less nitrogen waste products.

Quite a lot of effort has gone into correcting and eliminating that prticular myth. Obviously, it is still at large

Here are a few links, including to veterinary articles, that should put the issue to rest:
http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=1104
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Oper...protein_RD.pdf
http://www.jeanesholistics.com/artkidneyfailure.html
http://b-naturals.com/May2004.php
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

High protein and high phosphorus do not cause kidney failure. And low protein isn't even required for animals who actually *have* kidney failure. What is required is high quality, digestible protein that produces little in the way of nitrogen waste products - because *that* is what causes the kidneys to work hard.

As for EVO - it may be high protein compared to traditional kibble. But traditional kibble is ridiculously low in useable protein. Both are well below the protein content of a natural raw diet.

meb999
October 8th, 2006, 10:36 AM
I feel like the more I know, the less I know :o

catsnatcher-CDN
October 8th, 2006, 01:22 PM
Ok, so I posted a question about Phosphorous and EVO on a boxer board, where they highly recomend Evo. Here's the responce I got....it makes sense, no?

I read the first paragraph and I no longer feel as smart as I thought I was before having read it!

meb999
October 8th, 2006, 04:59 PM
seriously, this is like complicateder than any class I've taken!!

Prin
October 8th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Umm.. I don't know about that post... The first two links don't work. The third is a "pick and choose" article (where the "author" picks and chooses the "facts" to support his/her theory), and the 4th is the one Techno posted already, which was discussed a bit (most of the info there was indirectly all taken from one study from the netherlands), the 5th says this:
These authors point out that Phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function

with links in it to this:
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html
Phosphorus: Elevated phosphorus is dangerous and needs to be controlled. It is questionable how important phosphorus is when blood levels are still in the normal range (below 6.0 mg/dl), but my feeling is that it is still important to reduce phosphorus in the diet, and be sure to use adequate calcium (which binds phosphorus), even when the levels are normal. When phosphorus levels are above the normal range, even by small amounts, then I think it is vital to both reduce phosphorus in the diet and use phosphorus binders, plus you may need to do other treatments as well.

The problem is, your person is still arguing whether or not PROTEIN affects kidney function, using links that demonstrate that, but we're talking about phosphorus here, which his links do say contributes significantly to renal issues.:shrug:

technodoll
October 8th, 2006, 08:17 PM
kibble: astronaut food for dogs! :D

seriously... would it be too much to ask the petfood companies to adhere to a few simple, honest standards?... :confused:

Prin
October 8th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Yep. Apparently it is.:rolleyes:

chase de bull
February 12th, 2007, 10:25 PM
[QUOTE=Scott_B;295434]:thumbs up

http://www.scottsite.ca/Rosco/slides/Oct1061.JPG

i wonder how this handsome bully looks like now. Any recent pics scott?

rainbow
February 12th, 2007, 10:40 PM
Handsome....yes :lovestruck: but, he's not a bully. ;)

technodoll
February 12th, 2007, 10:42 PM
isn't a bullmastiff a "bully"? :o from the bully breed...

Prin
February 12th, 2007, 10:43 PM
Bullies are a lot of things.. :o

rainbow
February 12th, 2007, 10:58 PM
I just don't like the term "bully" for any "bull breed". :o

Scott_B
February 13th, 2007, 06:49 AM
Sorry Rainbow, thats what most bullmastiff owners will refer to them as. bullies. We don't (at least most of the bullmastiff owners I know) call them mastiffs as thats a bread all by itself. Prin pretty much has it down, any of the bull breeds seem to get the bully name. I understand what you mean though about the term "bully", but imo, thats just reading too much into things.

Anyways, I don't have any good recent pictures. I'll see what I can come up with though later. He hasnt grown much. Only 118lbs. :thumbs up