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Pus-filled absess thing won't go AWAY!

Prin
September 21st, 2006, 10:03 PM
My dad's JRT has gone under the knife 2 times in the last 3 months for an absess under his chin. First they thought it was an infected salivary gland, so they gave antibiotics. Then it began pussing a TON, so he went under while they went fishing for a foreign body. Nothing. They cleaned him out, closed him up and more antibiotics.

About a week later, it started pussing again, through the stitches. Back to the vet for another surgery.


Now it's pussing again.

On top of that, I caught a glimpse of his tongue and it was a little blueish, so I checked out his gums and they were the whitest pink.. Not good..:(

So my dad's getting a second opinion... I gave him some of my probiotics to try out (he's been on so many antibiotics) and I also finally convinced my dad to switch foods last week (doggy was shedding a lot).

Obviously this dog is getting consistent vet care, but IMO, something is not being caught and with his gums nearly white, I don't think he'd survive another anaesthesia. :(

Anybody have a clue as to what is going on?!:sad:

mafiaprincess
September 21st, 2006, 10:06 PM
I thought white gums could be a sign of shock.. How long have they been nearly white for?

Prin
September 21st, 2006, 10:08 PM
I don't know... I only noticed them today. He was acting totally normal though. A little cold (it was freezing today!), but then he went and made himself a nest out of my duvet. :D

Nothing happened to him today at all. Or even this week. He's totally fine except for that pussy thing. I hope it's not a blood infection or something.:fingerscr

technodoll
September 21st, 2006, 10:41 PM
pale gums can be a sign of anemia... what does his blood panel say re: red blood cells? has his liver functions been checked? :confused:

Prin
September 21st, 2006, 10:44 PM
They were checked not long ago (before the second surgery) but the results weren't discussed... My dad's getting them tomorrow.

technodoll
September 22nd, 2006, 09:12 AM
let us know when the test results are in... poor little jack muscle :(

rainbow
September 22nd, 2006, 12:03 PM
Re the white gums, sounds like anemia to me as well. Fingers crossed for the little guy....hope he's ok. :fingerscr

vfrohloff
September 24th, 2006, 08:10 AM
I find it really strange that after cleaning it out they would stitch it up. A wound abscesses because the pus has nowhere to drain, so of course it's going to come through the stitches. I had a similar incident with one of my cats Petunia when she was about 4 weeks old. She got an abscess on the side of her chin and they tried 3 times to clean out whatever was causing it. No foreign body was ever found but I had to soak her little chin 3 times a day to keep it open and draining. She was also on antibiotics which didn't work the first time so we switched her to another kind and that did the trick. I'm glad your dad is getting a second opinion because IMO any vet should know not to stitch up an abscess.

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 09:45 AM
Yeah, my dad's still waiting for the old vet to send all the test results and things to the new vet... They sent them once already, but put the papers the wrong side up in the fax machine.:rolleyes:

I don't know if they can leave it open at this point. The incision's about 2 inches long now and on a little dog, that's pretty huge, but maybe they can leave one side open or something?

I hope he's ok too.:(

LibbyP
September 24th, 2006, 09:56 AM
(I) would think that if they didn't pack it to let it heal from the inside out (I) would surely think that they would put a stitch or two and a draining tube and a nice dose of meds to help, poor boy must be very uncomfortable and smelly:yuck:

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Uncomfortable yes, smelly no.. He's very meticulous about keeping himself clean. He wipes his chin on his paw or his blanket and then licks everything clean.:sick: :shrug:

LibbyP
September 24th, 2006, 10:04 AM
Oh good boy, will he let you clean it out? With Hibitaine(udderwash?):shrug:

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 10:14 AM
It's just hard because it's still stitched up... He probably would though. He's a very docile little guy (not typical for a Jack).

LibbyP
September 24th, 2006, 10:20 AM
Prin you just LLLLOOOVE to post pics;) I'm surprised your two weren't in the pic with him, he sure is cute:D

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 10:22 AM
no, no, this is his thread. :D

I figure if you're going to help me with an animal, you may as well meet him.:shrug:

LibbyP
September 24th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Just kidding:D I'm not sure how much help I'm offering, but he is too darn cute

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 10:56 AM
He's definitely a "jack muscle"... lol

OntarioGreys
September 24th, 2006, 11:06 AM
No advice, just wanted to say he is gorgeous

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 11:12 AM
You'd like him OG- he's got rodent prey drive like I've never seen before (and he gets the job done :eek: ).

Inverness
September 24th, 2006, 11:44 AM
Stitching the whole thing up doesn't seem right to me either. I would definitely insert a drainage tube and flush the abscess twice a day. Didn't the vet suggest to keep him in the hospital so the wound can be attended to ?

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 12:58 PM
No... Each time, he thought he got whatever it was out.:shrug:

rainbow
September 24th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Aww, what a cute little guy. What's his name?

The old vet sounds like a real winner. :rolleyes: If they can't figure out how to fax something then I wouldn't want them looking after my kids. :eek:

Hope you get the results tomorrow. :fingerscr

Prin
September 24th, 2006, 01:20 PM
Yeah, still no news, but we'll see if anything happens this week...

The doggy is Buddy, Bud, or Budlov. :D

LibbyP
September 26th, 2006, 10:02 AM
Hey Prin any news on poor buddy yet?:fingerscr

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 10:06 AM
Well, he's sitting beside me right now and my dad hasn't heard anything from the new vet yet.:rolleyes: His gums are a little pinker than they were, but still not as pink as they should be (no blueish tint anymore though :o). He's still pussing like mad though.:(

technodoll
September 26th, 2006, 10:20 AM
awe poor sweetie... sigh. sneak him some EVO RM and see if it helps after a while... :)

rainbow
September 26th, 2006, 12:18 PM
You should give the vet a call. Maybe the old vet hasn't figured out how to use the fax machine yet. :rolleyes:

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 04:43 PM
I already gave my dad a bag of regular evo... :shrug: He was shedding more and more so my dad decided to switch.;)

Prin
October 8th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Ok, so he FINALLY! got the second opinion on Thursday (I think it was thursday :o). Makes me really question my vet now...

Instead of ANOTHER surgery, what this vet did was sort of what you all suggested, only a bit tweaked. She stuck a catheter into the hole in his chinny, pushed it through about 2-3 inches to the end of the hole, and then used it to flush the insides with saline and an antibiotic solution, and then put him on 3 weeks worth of strong antibiotics. He was already looking a bit better (I think it's because of the probiotics I gave my dad ;)), but hopefully this will do it.:fingerscr

mummummum
October 8th, 2006, 10:37 PM
You know it's funny Prin cuz it sounds just like a decubitus ulcer. Which it couldn't be of course because it's on his chin. Did the Vet give your Dad some saline/antibiotic solution to take home so that he could continue to flush it with a hypo? Or at least something to pack it with ?

Prin
October 8th, 2006, 10:39 PM
No, it's stitched shut still. If he needs it flushed, he'll just go back to the vet... I'll have to go search for "decubitus ulcer"...

LibbyP
October 9th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Glad to hear you finally got some help, :fingerscr Hopefully this will finally fix the poor boy up. Is the new vet going to monitor him or just bring him back if it needs to be flushed again?

Prin
October 9th, 2006, 11:17 PM
I think he's just supposed to keep an eye out, give the antibiotics and go back if there's trouble.

So far, he's still got pus, but it's less than before... I gave my dad more probiotics because last time he gave them was when the doggy had the most progress (maybe a coincidence, but I don't think so ;)).

:fingerscr

shannon1233A
October 10th, 2006, 09:22 AM
Hey Prin, take a look at this, it talks about deep infection under the chin etc. Hope it helps (and it's nice to talk to you again hun) wish it was under different circumstances!

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/70900.htm&word=absess%2cchin
The hallmarks of deep pyoderma in dogs are pain, crusting, odor, and exudation of blood and pus. Erythema, swelling, ulcerations, hemorrhagic crusts and bullae, hair loss, and draining tracts with serohemorrhagic or purulent exudate may also be seen. The bridge of the muzzle, chin, elbows, hocks, interdigital areas, and lateral stifles are more prone to deep infections, but any area may be involved. Acral lick granulomas and areas of pyotraumatic dermatitis are also clinical manifestations of deep pyoderma. Interdigital furunculosis ( Interdigital Furunculosis: Introduction) is another manifestation of deep pyoderma. Plant awns, naked keratin from hair shafts or ruptured hair follicles, and other foreign bodies play a significant role in the inflammatory process associated with deep pyodermas.

The primary treatment of superficial pyoderma is with appropriate antibiotics for ≥21 and preferably 30 days. All clinical lesions (except for complete regrowth of alopecic areas and resolution of hyperpigmented areas) should be resolved for at least 7 days before antibiotics are discontinued. Chronic, recurrent, or deep pyodermas typically require 8-12 wk or longer to resolve completely.
First-time bacterial pyoderma can be treated with empiric antibiotic therapy such as lincomycin, clindamycin, erythromycin, trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole, trimethoprim-sulfadiazine, chloramphenicol, cephalosporins, amoxicillin trihydrate-clavulanic acid, or ormetoprim-sulfadimethoxine.
Amoxicillin, penicillin, and tetracyline are inappropriate choices for treating superficial or deep pyodermas because they are ineffective in 90% of these cases. Fluoroquinolones should not be used for empiric therapy. Severe deep pyoderma, recurrent pyoderma, or first-time bacterial pyodermas that do not respond to therapy should be treated based on culture and sensitivity. Topical antibiotics may be helpful in focal superficial pyoderma. A 2% mupiricin ointment penetrates skin well and is helpful in deep pyoderma, is not systemically absorbed, has no known contact sensitization, and is not used as a systemic antibiotic that would increase the likelihood of cross-resistance. It is not very effective against gram-negative bacteria. This ointment should not be used in cats with any known or suspected history of renal disease because the preparation contains propylene glycol. Neomycin is more likely to cause a contact allergy than other topicals and has variable efficacy against gram-negative bacteria. Bacitracin and polymyxin B are more effective against gram-negative bacteria than other topical antibiotics but are inactivated in purulent exudates.
Attention to grooming is often overlooked in the treatment of both superficial and deep pyoderma. The hair coat should be clipped in patients with deep pyoderma and a professional grooming is recommended in medium- to longhaired dogs with generalized superficial pyoderma. This will remove excessive hair that can trap debris and bacteria and will facilitate grooming. Longhaired cats usually benefit most from having the hair coat clipped.
Dogs with superficial pyoderma should be bathed 2-3 times/wk during the first 2 wk of therapy and then 1-2 times until the infection has resolved. Dogs with deep pyoderma may require daily hydrotherapy. Medicated shampoos should be prediluted 1:2 to 1:4 prior to application to facilitate lathering, dispersal, and rinsing. Appropriate antibacterial shampoos include benzoyl peroxide, chlorhexidine, chlorhexidine-ketoconazole, ethyl lactate, and triclosan. Shampooing will remove bacteria, crusts, and scales, as well as reduce the pruritus, odor, and oiliness associated with the pyoderma. Clinical improvement in superficial pyodermas may not be evident for a least 14-21 days, and recovery may not be as rapid as expected.

Prin
October 10th, 2006, 12:32 PM
I don't know if it can be pyoderma because it's not really in the skin. It's far, far under the skin (they originally thought it was an infected salivary gland). Either way, the antibiotics he's on now are a broader spectrum set so hopefully they'll take care of whatever it is.

Thanks Shannon.:)

rainbow
October 10th, 2006, 11:08 PM
Poor little guy.....I hope you can get to the bottom of this. :fingerscr :fingerscr

Prin
December 30th, 2006, 12:05 AM
Yet another update...:(

So my dad got a second opinion... And they've had him on antibiotics for 3 months now. It was getting better and then got worse again, so the second vet sent my dad to a surgeon. So my dad had the consult today, and the surgeon said no, no surgery for this. It's definitely a foreign object, but to do an exploratory surgery is just too much for Buddy without any guarantees that they'll find anything or solve anything. So he said quit the antibiotics right away and just let it be. So my dad headed out and got some probiotics... Sigh. Poor doggy. He's not as bad as he was, but he still drips pus every now and then from his chinny.:(

(oops, forgot pics don't upload in the health forum..)
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h213/Princi9009/Jemma%20and%20Boo%20Nov%20Dec%202006/IMG_5587.jpg