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Protein in the diet (for dogs)

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 09:23 PM
Found a great resource on protein in the diet, for those who are interested: http://b-naturals.com/Nov2005.php

By Lew Olson • November 2005 Newsletter

This month is covering the third session of the Nutrition Course. Protein is an important topic, as protein is needed for organ integrity, skin and coat, the immune system and energy. We will cover what foods contain protein, what protein consists of and what the protein needs are for dogs.

Most foods contain proteins, carbohydrates and fats. The foods most commonly thought of as containing proteins are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. Grains and vegetables also contain proteins, but not all proteins are equal.

Proteins are groups of amino acids in various chain lengths. These are usually linked in numbers of three to ten. The pancreas secretes digestive enzymes called protease (proteolytic enzymes), that break these down into smaller chains, which enable them to become ready to be absorbed by the small intestine. Except in a very few cases, intact proteins cannot be absorbed. However, puppies until 24-48 hours after birth are able to do this while ingesting colostrum, to allow them to gain temporary immunity.

There are two types of amino acids, essential, and non-essential. The non-essential amino acids can be supplied in the diet, or the dog’s body can synthesize them. The essential amino acids need to be present in the food that dogs consume to be available for them. These amino acids include:

Essential Amino Acids
Arginine
Histidine
Isolueucine
Leucine
Lysine
Methionine
Phenylalanine
Typotophan
Threonine
Valine
Taurine*

*Taurine has been considered a non essential amino acid in dogs, but recent studies have indicated that it may likely be conditionally essential.

Nonessential Amino Acids
Alanine
Asparagine
Aspartate
Carnitine
Cysteine
Glutamate
Glutamine
Glycine
Lycine
Hydroxlysine
Hydroxyproline
Proline
Serine
Tyrosine

Animal proteins are considered complete proteins and plant proteins are called incomplete proteins. This refers to the amino acid profiles contained in these proteins.

Amino acids that are often missing in plant proteins include arginine, taurine, methionine, lysine and tryptophan. Corn does not contain any glycine, lysine or tryptophan. The lack of these essential amino acids denotes the protein quality of the food. Meat contains all the essential amino acids, and is considered very high quality. The measure for assessing the protein quality is based on the chicken egg, which is considered to have all the amino acids needed in sufficient amounts.

Protein Digestibility List
Egg whites: 1.00
Muscle meats (chicken, beef, lamb): 0.92
Organ meats (kidney, liver): 0.90
Milk, cheese: 0.89
Fish: 0.78
Rice: 0.72
Oats: 0.66
Wheat: 0.64
Corn: 0.54

Note: Values in this table are approximate, as they have been taken from several nutritional sources and personal communications with nutrition experts.)

Second to the quality of egg protein is animal protein (meat and organs) at about 90% digestibility, and the least quality is plant proteins, which fall as low as 45%. It takes more plant proteins than animal proteins to give the adequate protein percentages, and even at that, some amino acids will be lacking. It seems more sensible to feed meat protein, which is more protein dense, to achieve the amino acid profiles needed for dogs.

Heat is another factor in amino acid integrity. Studies have shown that high temperatures, or long time exposure to heat, can alter the amino acid chains. This can cause either a loss or a lowering of the quality of these proteins. (1) Meat cooked at extreme temperatures, over a long period of time loses more nutritional quality than meat cooked less than twenty minutes. While such cooking may be necessary for omnivores, carnivores have digestive tracts designed to readily and easily digest meat that is raw.

In a study Dr D.S. Kronfeld conducted in 1982, he concluded after analyzing the protein content of dry and canned dog foods, “Two reservations on this point concern the high fiber content of the canned product intended for older dogs and the possibility of over cooking the dry foods, for both of these factors tend to depress protein digestibility. Overcooking form amino-aldehydo bonds between protein and soluble carbohydrates, and this particularly interferes with availability of certain amino acids, notably lysine.”

Dr Kronfeld also reports that overcooking of dog foods destroys the amino acids methionine and histidine, and the cooking reacts with the proteins and starch to produce such side products as caramel, which contains no nutrients for a dog. As protein quality decreases, more is needed to meet the dog’s needs. However, if more poor quality proteins are added, the dog will still not get the amino acid requirements.

Poor quality proteins are more taxing on the liver and kidneys to process and digest. This can create a strain on these organs, which is even more difficult for a dog with compromised kidney or liver function. The added strain on an already diseased organ can further complicate these diseases.
Dr Kronfeld reports that older dogs and dogs with compromised kidneys can easily process high quality proteins. He states that high quality proteins in percentages as high as 54% can actually kill bacteria in the kidneys and create an acidic condition that is healthier for these organs. This would be helpful for urinary tract infections and other bacteria in the dogs system. (2)

Similarly, Dr Bovee’s research in the mid 1970’s concluded that high protein levels were more advantageous to dogs with deteriorating kidneys. He reported that the kidney function was much better in dogs fed a diet of 54% protein than 27% protein, for up to two years in his studies. (This study is in complete opposition to the recommendations of the NRC (National Research Council) for low protein for dogs with renal disease.) The same studies concluded that high percentages of protein in the dogs’ diet also help to kill bacteria in the urinary tract. (3)

Furthermore, a study was designed to test the hypothesis that restricting protein intake in older dogs may protect the kidneys and experimental dogs were divided into two groups. Dogs in both groups had a kidney removed to increase vulnerability of the remaining kidney to any protein effects. One group was fed a low protein diet (18%) and the other group received a higher protein diet (34%) for the subsequent four years. Results of this study indicated that there were no adverse effects from the higher protein diet, and mortality was actually higher in the lower protein group. (4)

A summary of eight studies done on dogs with reduced renal mass found that levels of protein up to 45% in the diet had no harmful effect on the kidneys. (5)

Another question is on protein and senior dogs. Many commercial foods now sell formulas designed specifically for the needs of the senior dog. These are often diets that offer lower protein, but studies show that this can cause more harm than good.

A diet rich in protein is especially important for older dogs. Senior dogs appear less efficient at metabolizing protein, so they require additional protein in their diets to help compensate. In fact, research has shown that healthy older dogs may need as much as 50 percent more protein than normal young healthy adult dogs. (6).

The importance of providing adequate dietary protein to senior dogs was brought out in research conducted at the Purina Pet Care Center. In this study, 26 English Pointers, ranging from 7 to 9 years old, were fed diets that were either 15 percent or 45 percent protein over several years. Dogs fed the high-protein diet maintained a directionally higher percent of lean body mass and lower percent of body fat (6).

There is also more information on protein needs in the newsletter
Protein, Kidneys & Seniors
The need for high quality protein is also applicable for puppies. Too little protein will do more harm than good, and there is no research to show that too much protein is damaging to a growing puppy.

"Dietary protein requirements are much higher for growing puppies than for fully grown dogs. In addition to supplying the protein needed to support protein turnover and normal cellular metabolism, protein is needed to build growing muscles and other tissues." (7)

"Research at the Purina Pet Care Center and at other facilities has shown that puppies fed inadequate protein do not grow as well and are more susceptible to health problems than those fed nutritionally complete diets. At the Pet Care Center, English setter puppies that were fed a low-protein diet showed stunted growth compared to puppies fed higher levels of protein. However, when the protein level was increased in the puppies at the Pet Care Center, the deficiency was corrected." (7)

"Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in large-breed puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein they fed. However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great Dane puppies at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that dietary protein does not contribute to these problems." (7)

"Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects from protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a diet of only 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein intake." (7)
"Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their immunological response," Hazewinkel says. "This is true for large- and small-breed puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15 percent." (7)

"This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first half-year of life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent does not negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs. The research also confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental effects on liver and kidney functioning." (7)

So the conclusion of the above referenced research stresses the need for high quality protein to achieve the best growth and immune systems. No proof was found that protein amounts affect skeletal growth adversely, except when using too little or too poor quality.

Since dogs are carnivores, and their digestive systems are designed to handle large amounts of raw meat and fat, it would seem logical that they would do better on a diet that nature intended. Cooking animal protein changes many amino acids chains, and makes some of the amino acids dogs need unusable. Dogs’ needs for amino acids differ from humans, and raw meat contains many or most ingredients for good tissue health, immunity and good coat and skin for carnivores.

For more information on this, see the article on Vegetarian Diets for Dogs
The bottom line is that protein is important for dogs in all stages, and the quality of the protein is equally important. This also lends to the need for variety in the diet, to insure that a wide spectrum of amino acids is being provided. This would include red meat, poultry, organ meat, dairy and eggs. No one choice will offer the variety needed for good health, and protein needs cannot be met by feeding grains, starches and vegetables. While these may lend fiber, some minerals and vitamins, only animal based proteins will give the full array of amino acids that is needed for canine good health and longevity.
In December we will be covering “Carbohydrates in the Diet”, so see you then!

(1) Kronfeld, DS PhD DSc MVSc, Protein Quality and Amino Acid Profiles of Commercial Dog Foods, (Journal of the American Hospital Association, July/August 1982, Vol. 18) 682-683
(2) Kronfeld, DS PhD DSc MVSc, Home Cooking for Dogs, Food Energy-Carbohydrates, Fats and Proteins, (American Kennel Club Gazette, June, 1978) 64
(3) Bovee, KC DVM, Dietary Considerations in Chronic Renal Failure, (Canine Nutrition, University of Pennsylvania, School of Veterinary Medicine, 1972) 37-38
(4) Finco DR, Brown SA, Crowell WA, Brown CA, Barsanti JA, Carey DP, Hirakawa DA. Effects of aging and dietary protein intake on uninephrectomized geriatric dogs. Am J Vet Res. 1994 Sep; 55(9):1282-90.
(5) Summary of Experiments on Dogs With Reduced Renal Mass That Examined Renal Effects of Diet.
(6) Ralston Research Fellow Dottie Laflamme, D.V.M., Ph.D. Nutritional Needs Of Older Dogs.
(7) Breeder's Magazine

Contact Me
If you would like to ask me any questions about my products, I would love to hear from you. Please check your return address when you send me email from my web site and try to write me again if you have not heard back from me.

To email: lew@b-naturals.com
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Copyright 2005 Lew Olson, All Rights Reserved

OntarioGreys
September 15th, 2006, 10:10 PM
I posted links to this article a few times

Here is Purina's info from their research

Similarly, preliminary findings from the Purina Pet Care Center indicate that healthy geriatric dogs fed 45 percent dietary protein have maintained health and body condition, with no evidence of increased kidney damage due to protein intake. The evidence supports other recent research that protein at any level consistent with complete and balanced nutrition has no adverse effect on the kidneys of normal, healthy dogs.

It is known that as dogs age they become less efficient in metabolizing protein than young dogs so that older dogs require more protein than young adult dogs to fully replenish their protein reserves and maintain protein turnover. ......

Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in large-breed puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein they feed. However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great Dane puppies at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that dietary protein does not contribute to these problems. 6

Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects from protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a diet of only 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein intake.

"Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their immunological response," Hazewinkel says. "This is true for large- and small-breed puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15 percent."

This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first half-year of life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent does not negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs. The research also confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental effects on liver and kidney functioning.




My dogs have had 2 blood tests on all 3 dogs since starting EVO a year apart I was curious if the higher protein would have any effect on their blood
chemistry, there was no changes is there chemistry relating to kidney or liver function, in Sunny his low borderline thyroid levels improved to mid normal levels which was one of the bigger surprises as well his weight finally stabilized, In Maya I have noticed improved blood clotting when she cuts herself now, before a simple needle draw was a big concern and caused significant bruising and needed pressure for 2 hours to stop the bleeding. So in my case I am seeing 2 dogs with improved health as a result of being fed a much higher protein, My youngster Winnie is also on, I notice he was scratching more while on the Canidae now the skin is less dry and no more scratching

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 10:40 PM
OG, now it's been posted ooooone more time! :D

and it's great to hear testimonials such as yours. it's the only way to spread knowledge: to talk about it! :highfive:

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 11:00 PM
So, lets say you switch your dog to a very high protein diet - do the kidneys work harder to get rid of the extra uric acid - something that I have heard in my reading.

And, if your dogs have been on a crappy brand of food for a long time is it more difficult or even dangerous to switch them at this point?

What about poops - heard that high protein can constipate?

Also - I'd like to know if anyone isn't worried about dog food manufacturers using AAFCO just as a guide for nutrition rather than having them do the actual feeding trials and then getting that AAFCO certified stamp on the bag? Shouldn't it be more comforting to know the food was actually tested on other dogs?

I hope these aren't stupid questions - am still gathering info. and learning a lot!

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 11:04 PM
superwanda... all's not what it seems in the tricky, unregulated world of pet food manufacturing... :eek:

AAFCO's "Required testing" of pet foods

The ad reads: "Our pet foods are made following AAFCO guidelines and must pass stringent testing." This sounds good, until we take a close look at the AAFCO test guidelines. "The Testing Protocols For Providing An Unqualified Representation of Nutritional Adequacy For A Dog Or Cat Food" are spelled out in the book, Official Publication, 1994, Association of American Feed Control Officials Incorporated.

For adult maintenance dog food to pass the AAFCO test:

8 dogs older than 1 yr. must start the test.
At start all dogs must be normal weight & health.
A blood test is to be taken from each dog at the start and finish of the test.
For 6 months, the dogs used must only eat the food being tested.
The dogs finishing the test must not lose more than 15% of their body weight.
During the test, none of the dogs used are to die or be removed becasue of nutritional causes.
6 of the 8 dogs starting must finish the test.

That's all there is to it.

The AAFCO protocols for adult maintenance dog food listed in the book, Official Publication, 1994, Association of American Feed Control Officials Incorporated, do not require different breeds to be tested, nor do they exclude any of the larger breeds which are still puppies (nutritionally) when they are 1 to 2 years old. Their protocols require blood tests which screen only four different blood values: RBC number, hemoglobin, packed cell volume and serum albumin. The average veterinary "basic blood profile" screens over twenty-five blood values.

There are many pet food ads making the claim that a food has passed "stringent testing as required by AAFCO." But AAFCO's "stringent" test protocols wouldn't even meet the criteria to have their results published in most accredited scientific journals. Compare the above number of animals used to the numbers used in some of the tests cited in the U. S. Government's National Research Council book, Nutrient Requirements of Dogs. There are tests cited in the NRC's book which used 500 to 600 test animals which were tested for years before their results were published.

The AAFCO book lists the same type of "stringent" testing protocols for maintenance cat foods, puppy foods, kitten foods, and the gestation/lactation pet foods.

Buyer beware . . . you may be buying a pet food advertised as being a nutritionally adequate diet for all dogs because it passed "stringent" AAFCO testing ... when only six to eight dogs ate that food for 6 months and survived with no more than an "acceptable" 15% loss of body weight.

This article was written by The Animal Advocate


http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/04.html

OntarioGreys
September 16th, 2006, 08:50 AM
What about poops - heard that high protein can constipate?


No constipation problems here poops are just smaller , the only time I have heard of constipation problem is with dogs eating raw with a very high bone content

[So, lets say you switch your dog to a very high protein diet - do the kidneys work harder to get rid of the extra uric acid - something that I have heard in my reading.

/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Disadvantages to reduced protein intake include reduced kidneyfunction as measured by GFR and renal plasma flow,possibility of a negative nitrogen balance, and the promotion of a catabolic state in the presence of proteinuria.


This article goes into indepth talk about protein and kidney failure talking about old research and new
http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=protein+myth+dog+bovee&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=slv1-msgr&x=wrt&u=www.geocities.com/jjfleisher/bovee_protein_RD.pdf&w=protein+myth+dog+bovee&d=JlQthyQ8NRVm&icp=1&.intl=us

Q. Are high protein diets harmful to my dog's kidneys?

A. A rumor has been going around that high protein diets cause kidney disease. This rumor is false. High protein pet foods are NOT harmful to a normal animal's kidneys. As an animal's body digests and metabolizes protein, nitrogen is released as a by-product. The excess nitrogen is excreted by the kidneys. A high protein diet produces more nitrogen by-products and the kidneys simply excrete the nitrogen in the urine. While you may think this would 'overwork' the kidneys and lead to possible kidney damage, this is not true. The kidney's filtering capabilities are so great that even one kidney is sufficient to sustain a normal life. There are many pets - and humans - living perfectly healthy lives with just one kidney.
The myth that high protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low protein (and thus low nitrogen) diets. Now, we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein, but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products. These diet changes are made merely because damaged kidneys may not be able to handle the excess nitrogen efficiently. In pets with existing kidney problems, nitrogen can become too high in the bloodstream, which can harm other tissues.

Unless your veterinarian has told you your pet has a kidney problem and it is severe enough to adjust the protein intake, you can feed your pet a high protein diet without worrying about 'damaging' or 'stressing' your pet's kidneys. Also, you are not 'saving' your pet's kidneys by feeding a low protein diet.



And, if your dogs have been on a crappy brand of food for a long time is it more difficult or even dangerous to switch them at this point?


No , not unless they are already at last stage renal failure, but I would take a least 2 weeks to transition to the new food


AAFCO has nothing to do with quality it simply contain info about minimum and sometimes maximum nutrients that must be in the food to be approved and contains info on labeling if your food meet all the conditions it can be said that it meets AAFCO standards

Several years ago a group of university students desided to have some fun with this by creating a totally unedible food that would legally meet the AFFCO standards and guidelines " their AAFCO approved food" contained things like rubber tires and motor oil " and it met the AAFCO dog food Nutrient profile and was labelled according to the AAFCO guidelines.

The AAFCO does not say what ingredients must be in the food it simply contains a nutirents profile that must be met for approval

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1661&articleid=662

SuperWanda
September 16th, 2006, 09:05 AM
That's crazy - 6 months of feeding is nothing - my Vet said it takes a couple of months to see the results of a new diet so what does that tell you. I really thought that they would be testing over a longer period of time.

I appreciate all the info. you've given me!

I think I'll look up that EVO food. I'd like to stay away from chicken and lamb if I can.

Timberwolf Organics still looks ok to me as well - although not as high in protein.

Thanks!

meb999
September 16th, 2006, 02:23 PM
I think I'll look up that EVO food. I'd like to stay away from chicken and lamb if I can.

Timberwolf Organics still looks ok to me as well - although not as high in protein.

Thanks!

Innova EVO has alot of chicken in it...so if you want to stay away from chicken, you may want to consider the EVO RM (red meat)

EVO
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural flavors, Egg, Garlic, Apples ,Carrots, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms

Innova EVO Red Meat
Beef, Beef Meal, Lamb Meal, Potatoes, Egg, Sunflower Oil, Buffalo, Lamb, Venison, Beef Cartilage, Natural Flavors, Herring Oil, Apples, Carrots, Garlic, Tomatoes, Vitamins/Minerals, Cottage Cheese, Dried Chicory Root, Ascorbic Acid, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract


Timberwolf also makes a high protein kibble....

Wild & Natural
Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Casein, DL – Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Taurine, Lysine, Carnitine, Choline Chloride, Creatine, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation, Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Enterbacter Faecium Fermentaion Product, Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product, Blueberries, Cranberries, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

Analysis:
Protein: 36%
Fat: 18%
Fiber: 2.5%
Moisture: 9%

but it's also a little chickeny and I'm not sure I like seeing chicken fat as the third ingredient. Research at Purdue University has identified a fat in the top four ingredients of a dry dog food as a factor that increases the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. Smaller breeds are untested.

meb999
September 16th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Another thing to consider : I bought some EVO that I'm mixing in with Wolf King....but I don't think I could do only EVo. it's a little expensive. If I'm going to spend that much on food, I think I'll start RAW....

technodoll
September 16th, 2006, 06:47 PM
just came back from the butcher's, have lots of loot but the chest freezer was completely empty save for two boxes of green tripe! it's not the cheapest place but it's the only place i've found that sells goat... maika loves goat. so for the curious:

10 lbs cubed goat meat on bone: $23
10 turkey necks: $3.50
6 lbs bone-in turkey thighs: $10
10 lbs lean ground beef: $17.50
7 lbs beef liver: $11
10 lbs chicken legs: $11

so 51 lbs of food for $76, and I know I paid way too much because I had no time to run to different places today :frustrated: Next weekend it's a trip to the other butcher's to stock up on beef heart (.99/lbs), and bone-in pork side roasts are on sale this week at my local grocer's for $1.29/lbs so I'll get about 20 lbs. Serious raw-feeders never pay more than $1/lbs of meat and they would laugh at me... i really need to join a co-op!! :rolleyes:

We go through about 2.5 lbs of raw meat & RMBs per day here (sometimes more, sometimes less), not counting the occasional kibble meals & other yummies. If I lose my job, they starve! LOL :D

Scott_B
September 17th, 2006, 09:56 AM
Very interesting. I know everyone has told me to stay away from a high protien diet since i have a large breed puppy. 26% protien is about as much as you want to keep him growing at a slower pace to avoid joint problems later in life. This is a good read.Thanks for posting it all :thumbs up

BMDLuver
September 17th, 2006, 11:52 AM
so here's a question for you food guru's:

My 1 year old Berner has a problem with meat protein that goes as follows:

Too much of one protein and by the end of the second bag, we are dealing with skin issues such as lesions.

So we switch to the same brand of food with a different protein for the next two bags.

And so on and so on..

We are doing this on a two bag rotation. I might add that I have also tried with the RAW but it's financially crippling. I think I have to go shopping with Technodoll to see where she goes, please? Also, I tend to run into the same problem with RAW if I can't find enough Meat Protein variety.

So, anyone have suggestions on a next approach as I'll do whatever is necessary for the big boob to be comfortable and lesion free with the exception of keeping him on meds for the rest of his life which I absolutely do not agree with.
Thanks.

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 12:11 PM
I might add that I have also tried with the RAW but it's financially crippling. I think I have to go shopping with Technodoll to see where she goes, please?

BMD, if you want me to give you my "meat haunts" LOL, please PM me and I will be glad to share. I'm still looking for new places but am happy with what i have found, far... your dog should eat between 1.5 and 3% of his body weight in raw food per day, if you can keep bills down to about $1/lbs then that's what you are looking at every month, financially. Weekly flyers and a small chest freezer are you best friends, too :thumbs up

OntarioGreys
September 17th, 2006, 01:12 PM
....but I don't think I could do only EVo. it's a little expensive

With EVO RM I am feeding quite a bit less it is lower in calories the the regular EVO

my 70 and 84 lb furkids get between 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 cups per day, the bag states 2 1/2 to 3 cups , I believe the regular EVO is lower yet since than calories are higher
from wolfkings feeding guidelines for the same size range is 3 2/3 - 4 1/3 cups so with wolf king you require roughly about 1 1/3 cups more food per day than EVO
for a 60 to 80 pound dog, unless EVO is greater than 27% more expensive per bag, it won't cost any more to feed since the bag lasts longer due to smaller feedings.

BMDLuver
September 17th, 2006, 01:53 PM
BMD, if you want me to give you my "meat haunts" LOL, please PM me and I will be glad to share. I'm still looking for new places but am happy with what i have found, far... your dog should eat between 1.5 and 3% of his body weight in raw food per day, if you can keep bills down to about $1/lbs then that's what you are looking at every month, financially. Weekly flyers and a small chest freezer are you best friends, too :thumbs up
Have an empty 12 cube freezer all set for RAW! He's 125lbs right now so that means about 2.5lbs for him and 2lbs for my old gal. Therefore, 4.5lbs per day so say $5.

K.. pm'd you for your shopping spots.