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Poultry-free foods!

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 11:07 PM
ok, upon speculation of WK being changed and made worse, if I have to re-research foods that Boo can tolerate... No chicken for Boo, no turkey and no duck. Jemma can't have wheat and corn, but those are easy to eliminate.

Here's what I have so far:

DVP Sweet potato and fish
Sweet Potatoes, Salmon, Salmon Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Canola Oil (preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid), Sweet Potato Fiber, Dl-methionine, L-lysine, Sodium Chloride, Salmon Oil, Flaxseed Oil, Rosemary Extract, Natural Flavor, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B-9).
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/SPFish.html
Pros: No chicken! And fish to keep the coat shiny.
Cons: Citric acid (bloat), sweet potatoey, "natural flavor", menhaden (need to know what they preserve it with).

Venison & Brown Rice
Venison, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Venison Meal, Rice Bran, Canola Oil (preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid), Natural Flavor, Flaxseed Oil, Kelp Meal, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Choline Chloride, L-lysine, Dl-methionine, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dried Parsley, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B-9).
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/VenDog.html
Pros: No chicken!
Cons: Citric acid (bloat), "natural flavor", very, very ricey...

Wellness Fish and Sweet potato
Whitefish, Ground Barley (dehulled), Rye Flour, Menhaden Fish Meal, Ground Pearled Barley, Sweet Potatoes, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Tomato Pomace (natural source of lycopene), Natural Fish Flavor, Flaxseed, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride.
Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.
Choline Chloride, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin K Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Taurine.

Old Mother Hubbard uses ethoxyquin-free meat sources.
http://www.omhpet.com/dogs/wellness_detail.asp?pCode=dryDogSup5MixSwtPot
Pros: No chicken, lotsa fish, no ethoxyquin in the menhaden, at least the natural flavor is specifically fish, although not a specific fish...
Cons: Lotsa Barley, Menadione (till Jan 07), tomato pomace, Jemma hates Wellness foods (she likes the cookies of course)

Wellness Lamb and Rice
Lamb, Menhaden Fish Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Rice Bran (from brown rice), Rye Flour, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Salmon Meal, Tomatoes (natural source of lycopene), Ground Millet, Natural Lamb Flavor, Carrots, Apples, Spinach, Blueberries, Sweet Potatoes, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate.
Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.
Choline Chloride, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyrodoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin K Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Chicory Root Extract, Glucosamine-HCl, Chondroitin Sulfate, Garlic, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus.
Old Mother Hubbard uses ethoxyquin-free meat sources.
http://www.omhpet.com/dogs/wellness_detail.asp?pCode=dryDogSup5MixLamb
Pros: No chicken, some fish, no ethoxyquin in the menhaden, at least the natural flavor is specifically lamb, WHOLE tomatoes!!!
Cons: Lotsa rice, Menadione (till Jan 07), Jemma hates Wellness foods still

Ground Brown Rice, Venison, Brown Rice Protein, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Natural Venison Flavor, Taurine, MINERALS: [Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite], VITAMINS: [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin K Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement].
http://www.omhpet.com/dogs/simple_food_venison.html
Pros: No chicken, natural flavor is specifically venison, lots of flax (might be a con, depending on if it's too much and makes Boo itchy)
Cons: Lotsa rice, Menadione (till Jan 07), no fish, Jemma hates Wellness foods still, protein is a bit low (21%)

Nature's Variety Lamb and oatmeal
Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Barley, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Menhaden Fish Meal, Dicalcium Phosphate, Flaxseed Meal, Montmorillonite Clay, Natural Lamb Flavor, Alfalfa Meal, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Biotin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Folic Acid), Sea Salt, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite), Lamb Liver, Inulin, Flaxseed Oil, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Apples, Carrots, Peas, Freeze Dried Lamb, Freeze Dried Lamb Hearts, Freeze Dried Lamb Liver, Pumpkinseeds, Ground Lamb Bone, Butternut Squash, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Kelp, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Persimmons, Olive Oil, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Sage, Clove, Rosemary Extract
http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=2301898&page=1325&-session=naturesvariety:42836EBF1650e382E9YtX3AC316 6
Pros: Natural flavor is specifically Lamb, not too grainy, no chicken fat (all other formulas have chicken fat/freeze dried chicken bits)
Cons: have to check what menhaden is preserved with, not sure if Boo can tolerate eggs..., citric acid (bloat), fake bacteria presence (gimmick)


Sigh... I'm gonna post this so I don't lose it and continue on... :o

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 11:19 PM
So you're ticked off with Solid Golid for the tomato pomace and Natural flavouring and all of the above have more than that, that you don't like. :D

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 11:26 PM
Ok, take two...

Innova Evo Red Meat
Beef Beef Meal Lamb Meal Potatoes Egg Sunflower Oil Buffalo Lamb Venison Beef Cartilage Natural Flavors Herring Oil Apples Carrots Garlic Tomatoes Vitamins/Minerals (Ascorbic Acid, Beta Carotene, Biotin, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Choline Chloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Cobalt Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Dicalcium Pantothenate, dl-Methionine, Folic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Niacin, Potassium Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin C Supplement (Sodium Ascorbate), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement (Alpha Tocopherol), Zinc Proteinate) Cottage Cheese Dried Chicory Root Ascorbic Acid Lecithin Rosemary Extract
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271404%27%5D
Pros: No chicken! And a little herring oil to maybe keep the coat a little shiny :shrug:, LOTS of meat, no grains (good for Jemma), WHOLE tomatoes!!!
Cons: Still wary of the 42% :o, not sure about eggs still, unnamed natural flavor (but they say it's usually the main meat in the food :shrug:, a little low fiber for Boo...


California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato Adult

Herring Barley Oatmeal/Rolled Oats Herring Meal Herring Oil Sweet Potatoes Sunflower Oil Natural Flavors Vitamin E Vitamins/Minerals Rosemary Extract
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271326%27%5D
Pros: No chicken! And lots of fish! Few grains (good for Jemma), hey- no flax!:)
Cons: Unnamed natural flavor, protein a little low (21%).


California Natural Lamb Meal & Rice
Lamb Meal Ground Brown Rice Ground White Rice Sunflower Oil Taurine Vitamins/Minerals Beta Carotene
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%273%27%5D
Pros: No chicken! Only rice (good for Jemma), hey- still no flax (half pro half con), No unnamed natural flavor :)
Cons: a little lacking in Omega 3, protein a little low (21%).

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 11:28 PM
So you're ticked off with Solid Golid for the tomato pomace and Natural flavouring and all of the above have more than that, that you don't like. :D
lol that's why I was on solid gold to begin with.. There was nothing major wrong yet. The California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato one is looking ok though... So far... I just have to find out what the natural flavor is and where to get the food..

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 12:03 AM
Hmm.. Performatrin Ultra Lamb & Brown Rice has "egg product" and brewer's yeast.. No thanks. http://www.performatrinultra.com/dog/ddi_lamb.htm
Slim Care Salmon & Olive Oil has really low fat and egg product and potato product (:confused: ) and brewer's yeast... No thanks. http://www.performatrinultra.com/dog/ddi_salmon.htm

Eagle Pack's Holistic Select formulas have beet pulp and Dried Egg Product. tsk tsk
Lamb meal & Rice one has chicken fat.
http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_Lamb.html
http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_Fish.html


Fromm Salmon ŕ la Vég
Salmon, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Sweet Potato, Pearled Barley, Potato, Oatmeal, White Rice, Whole Dried Egg, Salmon Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Millet, Dried Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Cheese, Flaxseed, Oat Hulls, Carrots, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Apples, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Monosodium Phosphate, Calcium Sulfate, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Chicory Root Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Alfalfa Sprouts, Yucca Schidigera, Folic Acid, Whole Clove Garlic, Parsley, Chondroitin Sulfate, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Enterococcous Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite.
http://www.frommfamily.com/products_fourstardry_salmon.asp
Pros:Lotsa salmon all split up, some grains (average, including the potato as a wannabe grain), some good stuff in there in tiny quantities
Cons:What was the verdict on menadione? Did we ever get a reply? Fake bacterial content (gimmick), a little grainy ;), Tomato pomace, egg again...

Fromm Whitefish And Potato
Whitefish, Potato, Menhaden Fish Meal, Sweet Potato, Brown Rice, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, White Rice, Herring Meal, Whole Dried Egg, Millet, Dried Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Oat Hulls, Cheese, Flaxseed, Menhaden Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Carrots, Broccoli, Cauliflower, Apples, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Monosodium Phosphate, Calcium Sulfate, Cranberries, Blueberries, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Chicory Root Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Alfalfa Sprouts, Yucca Schidigera, Folic Acid, Whole Clove Garlic, Parsley, Chondroitin Sulfate, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Enterococcous Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite.
Pros:no chicken, Lotsa fish all split up (need preservative for menhaden though)
Cons:Fake bacterial content (gimmick), quite grainy, potatoes are #1, Tomato pomace, egg again...


Pet curean's Foundations All life stages Lamb and vegetable 30-35% meat inclusion (they don't let you copy the ingredients :rolleyes: )
Pros:no chicken, menadione removed...
Cons:doesn't look grainy, but the protein is still low :confused:, egg again...
http://www.petcurean.com/product_table.html

Petcurean Summit "Lamb Meals & Rice"
Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols {Vit. E}, citric acid {Vit. C} and rosemary extract), Yeast Culture, Rice Bran, Flax, Natural Flavors, Kelp Meal, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Lysine, Garlic, Dried Whole Egg, Yucca Schidigera, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroit in Sulphate (shark cart ilage), Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C), Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (vitamin D), DL Alpha-Tocopherol Acetate (vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, *Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, *Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, *Manganese Proteinate,
Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulphite Complex (vitamin K), Vitamin B12.
Pros:no chicken, menadione removed...
Cons: rice is #1, the protein is low, egg again, mystery natural flavors, yeast- Jemma does NOT need more yeast anything...

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 12:18 AM
Wow...you're sure going to alot of trouble. Why don't you just check out meb999's sticky as most of these are there.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Last one for now... *wipes sweat off brow*

Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue
Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/ob.33.htm
Pros:no chicken, lots of fish, none of the usual grains, variety of ingredients my doggies have never had before, good protein (26%), ok fat source.
Cons: Not available here, fake bacterial content (gimmick), missing 4 ingredients before the first fat (if that study on bloat is accurate and covers all foods, not just corn foods)


TO Black Forest™ Canid Formula
Venison, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Lamb, Whole Ground Millet, Lamb Meal, Venison Meal, Whole Ground Barley, Low Ash Salmon Meal, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Unrefined Walnut Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Amaranth, Blueberries, Glucosomine, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chickory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols ( A Source of Vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine ( a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/bf.33.htm
Pros:no chicken, variety of ingredients my doggies have never had before, good fat source.
Cons: Not available here, a lot of grains my dogs have had before (grains=#1 probably), lower protein, fake bacterial content (gimmick), kinda low fat (12%)

TO Dakota™ Bison Canid Formula
Fresh Bison Meat, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/db.33.htm
Pros:no chicken, like wolf King but tweaked (better), good protein (better than WK), good fat content, great fat source, (I like the order of the grains- more digestible to less digestible).
Cons: Not available here, fake bacterial content (gimmick)

Nutrient Dense Lamb, Barley and Apples Formula
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/lba.16.htm
Has chicken fat

TO Wild & Natural Dry™ Canid Formula
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/wn.33.htm
All chickeny

TO Wilderness Elk Dry
Fresh Elk, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/product_p/wk.33.htm
Pros:no chicken, like wolf King but elk instead of bison, good protein (better than WK), good fat content and great fat source, GREAT grains
Cons: Not available here, fake bacterial content (gimmick)

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Wow...you're sure going to alot of trouble. Why don't you just check out meb999's sticky as most of these are there.
I know, but it's easier to see all the chicken frees in one thread. :shrug: This way, I can make a list of best to worst (IMO) to go out hunting with... It's for me.;)

Wolf King is really the last readily available food that I can give both Jemma and Boo, so it's going to be hard to find another one to switch to. I have to be prepared.:D

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 12:28 AM
So, so far it's TO Elk, TO Bison, TO Ocean Blue, California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato Adult and Innova Evo Red Meat, in that order (IMO). I think that's the reverse of the availability.

Oh, I was so hoping not to have to do this whole schpiel again.:rolleyes: :frustrated: It's much more fun doing it for other people's dogs.

(btw, this is what I do for other people here on the board (usually in ONE shortish post :D), but as you can kinda tell, picking a food for a poultry intolerant doggy is longer and more tedious than just a regular grain allergy... :shrug: But I love him, so he deserves the best. And no tomato pomace.;) I just figured I'd share my hard work...:D)

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 12:40 AM
Why don't you email Mark and ask who the distributor for TO is in Montreal and then get hold of the distributor and find out who buys from him.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 12:43 AM
The distributer is Lucid, the same as for Solid Gold. I asked them in the spring when they were bringing TO here and they said they might one day when they felt there was a demand for it.:shrug: :(

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 12:51 AM
So, it's Lucid that won't bring it in? If so, that's absurd. If they deliver Solid Gold to the pet store you deal with and the pet store orders TO for you Lucid should oblige.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 12:57 AM
yeah, but Lucid is divided in two parts (ontario-->east and west --> Manitoba) and our side ONLY has solid gold. But for sure now that the heat is on, somebody has to get something for Boo, or you'll see a thread from me asking Techno how to feed raw. :eek:

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 01:11 AM
It shouldn't matter how many parts Lucid is divided into. When I was looking into getting Canidae here I found out from Canidae who the distributor was.

There is only one pet store here (the one where I can't tolerate the owners) that deals with them and the only food they stock is Eagle Pack. I phoned the distributor and he said he had no problem with throwing a couple of bags of Canidae onto the truck with the Eagle Pack order.

I came close to doing it and even went in to their store to see the jerk but he was out for lunch and the girl didn't know anything about dog food orders. I then decided not to deal with him anyway so I switched to Innova instead.

So, if you get hold of the Lucid part that delivers to your store and ask them if they would do the same maybe then you can get Timberwolf.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 01:13 AM
See this is Lucid in the west: http://www.optimaldog.com/
See how many foods they have?

And this is Lucid in the east: http://www.jollypet.com/

The difference is obscene...

But for sure, I'll be in contact with everybody this week and next to try to figure out a back up plan if WK really does go cheap on me.

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 01:22 AM
Wow...that's unbelievable. Jolly Pet must have shares in Solid Gold. Okay, then I would email Mark at Timberwolf and tell him and see what he has to say. What have you got to lose?

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 01:27 AM
Done! lol... as you were posting. :D I really don't want to have to buy 16 bags or 7.5 bags or whatever huge number it is.:rolleyes: (especially since I don't know if my dogs will be ok on it or not)

In the meantime, I found two smaller distributers (not sure what they distribute exactly) in the east, so I'll call them tomorrow and see what they do...:shrug:

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 01:37 AM
I really don't want to have to buy 16 bags or 7.5 bags or whatever huge number it is. (especially since I don't know if my dogs will be ok on it or not)

Get together with the others here that want to try it. :shrug:


In the meantime, I found two smaller distributers (not sure what they distribute exactly) in the east, so I'll call them tomorrow and see what they do...

Good luck. :fingerscr

mafiaprincess
September 15th, 2006, 06:13 AM
Prin and I were discussing last night, either 'someone' becoming a distributor sort of. But then there's extra added cost when they have to ship like 13 or so bags out..

I found the multiple shipping program which isn't so bad, but that's still a lot of pounds of dog food if you find your dogs don't like it or don't do well on it etc..

Which brings it back to the niceness of being able to go to the store and just get your bag because it is there.. Pet Valu could order me in solid gold when I wanted it. But then they needed notice.. Was easier to drive a little further to global foods and it was on the shelf along with other great stuff so we could play around a little..

But I am ticked since Cider looks great, and we've been on WK 6 or so months now no issues. But I don't want to support their food when the formula changes. And am pissed to find barking at the moon is already changed.. I won't be getting another bag of it.

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Sorry - I'm the one that started all this chaos!

I would be very interested in trying the Timberwolf Organics as well! I am in Winnipeg so I'll see if anyone could bring it in here!

It is especially hard to find a chicken free food - I think the elk, bison and fish TO look good.

I noticed that you can order it on the website but it looks like you can't choose Canada. Yet it does say State/Province and Zip/Postal code - does anyone know if they will be shipping to Canadian customers?

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 08:40 AM
i love these posts :cloud9: learning alot about foods, distributors, and people! i really hope somebody can somehow figure out how to bring T.O. out east, I'm sure there is a big market for it. Just wish the stupid grocery stores and walmart sold it :rolleyes: Always gotta be on our toes, as consumers. yeah. hey if TO comes to town, i'll for sure buy a bag for the beanies (any kind, since they don't have allergies). they would love the snacks, I'm sure. in the meantime, gotta finish up all the kibbles in the house... it's a sloooow process since they eat very little of it these days. picky, picky.

prin what about dehydrated food?? :confused:

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 08:44 AM
Techno, I just don't think I can afford the dehydrated stuff right now. :o (I'm still unemployed :o)

Part of my email to TO asks if we can't get it through a proper distributer, how do they suggest Canadians get it without breaking the bank? I also slipped the WK story in there saying that with the formula cheapened, it's likely demand for other poultry-less foods will rise and they're among the very few who have completely poultry-less foods.

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 08:52 AM
the petfood companies sure aren't making it easy for the average-income families to feed high-quality foods to their pets :frustrated: soooo expensive for premade raw, dehydrated, canned, etc. and GETTING the good dry stuff in some places is unaffordable when you factor in shipping costs, taxes... :eek:

we need the same "right to products" as those out west do! :king: prin who knows, maybe you've started a stampede! :thumbs up

phoenix
September 15th, 2006, 10:15 AM
I just want to say thankyou to Prin (and everyone else helping) for taking the time to post your search process here. I really appreciate it because you're so clear about your thinking process and it will help a lot of people, I think. I also am enjoying learning about all of these other foods. I am so glad that my dogs have no allergies! (I never trusted SG... grr) I hope you have success, I'll keep my eyes open around here.

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 12:08 PM
Sorry - I'm the one that started all this chaos!

Don't be sorry. I'm sure everyone is glad that you brought this to our attention.


I would be very interested in trying the Timberwolf Organics as well! I am in Winnipeg so I'll see if anyone could bring it in here!

You should be able to get it in Winnipeg according to Prin's research:

yeah, but Lucid is divided in two parts (ontario-->east and west --> Manitoba) and our side ONLY has solid gold.

See this is Lucid in the west: http://www.optimaldog.com/
See how many foods they have?

And this is Lucid in the east: http://www.jollypet.com/

The difference is obscene...

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 12:16 PM
I just want to say thankyou to Prin (and everyone else helping) for taking the time to post your search process here. I really appreciate it because you're so clear about your thinking process and it will help a lot of people, I think. I also am enjoying learning about all of these other foods. I am so glad that my dogs have no allergies! (I never trusted SG... grr) I hope you have success, I'll keep my eyes open around here.


I agree. :highfive: Prin is so thorough in her research that you can't help but learn and if there's something you don't understand, she always takes the time to explain it to you. :angel:

It's too bad she has to go through this though. :grouphug: Both Boo and Jemma were doing so well on Solid Gold with their multiple allergies and now Solid Gold had to go and cheapen their dog food. :frustrated: :mad:

Good luck, Prin. :fingerscr

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 12:26 PM
Thanks - I did check - no stores carry it but the distributor will put it on the truck - only thing is I have to drive across the city to pick it up there - but I could handle that.

The only thing I question is the 3% fiber. More protein is great and their site talks about small, firm stool. Does anyone know if decreasing grain based fiber has a bad effect on the emptying of the anal glands - my dog has always had anal gland problems and although the solid gold is grainy - it really has helped her in that way - I think it bulks up the stool more being that it is insoluble type.

I would like more protein though at the same time.

Also wondering what fake bacteria is??? Is that bacteria trying to be something it's not??? Must be bad bacteria doing that, not the good kind! :D

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Does anyone know if decreasing grain based fiber has a bad effect on the emptying of the anal glands

the harder the stool, the better job it does at empyting the anal glands on its way "out the door" :rolleyes: (boy there is nothing sacred here, is there! LOL)

meb999
September 15th, 2006, 01:11 PM
Are they also changing their Just a Wee Bit formula? If not, it's basically the same ingredients as the WK....:shrug:

I say Prin should become the TO distributor for Quebec. Are still looking for a job? Who's more knowledgeable about kibble? I'd buy TO from you....


Just a Wee Bit Adult (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Millet | Brown Rice | Cracked Pearled Barley | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Dried Chicory Root | Taurine | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

WolfKing Adult Dog (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

meb999
September 15th, 2006, 01:13 PM
the harder the stool, the better job it does at empyting the anal glands on its way "out the door" :rolleyes: (boy there is nothing sacred here, is there! LOL)

Seriously....where else can you openly (and frequently) talk about your dog's poo?

meb999
September 15th, 2006, 01:21 PM
wow...three posts in a row.....I'm really brain dead today!!

Have you thought of Merricks Wilderness Blend (I think it's available here....)

Ingredients:
Buffalo, Oatmeal, Barley, Salmon Meal, Venison,Whole Brown Rice, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Flaxseed, Potatoes, Carrots, Peas, Dried Chicken Liver, Whole Apples, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Lysine, Guar Gum, Salt, Choline Chloride, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Whole Blueberries, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Whole Clove Garlic, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Natural Venison Flavor, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterocococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Natural Celery Flavor, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Natural Caramel Color, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3, Niacin, Lecithin, Ribofl avin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Complex, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.


Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (Not Less Than) 24.0%
Crude Fat (Not Less Than) 14.0%
Crude Fiber (Not More Than) 3.5%
Moisture (Not More Than) 10.0%

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Have you thought of Merricks Wilderness Blend

it has dried chicken liver... and boo can't do anything chicken, right? :cool: i'm gonna try a bag of Merrick's for the beanies next time i need some dry food for their snacks, it sounds really good! i saw some at a shop last month, first time ever. good marketing, it's a funky product line that catches the eye! :crazy:

phoenix
September 15th, 2006, 02:13 PM
Also wondering what fake bacteria is??? Is that bacteria trying to be something it's not??? Must be bad bacteria doing that, not the good kind! :D

She means that the company puts it in the food as a gimmick, since it isn't live/active bacteria. it's in there and it is the good kind, but it isn't doing any good. (not really 'fake' but more, inactive). It's a marketing technique.

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Yes - Just a Wee Bit has also changed:

Bison, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Cracked Pearled Barley, Rice Bran, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.

So, yes - identical as the Wolf King but more %protein and %fat.

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 02:27 PM
So, yes - identical as the Wolf King but more %protein and %fat.

that is a strange concept to me... if the ingredients are exactly the same, how can the protein & fat levels be different? :confused: unless they are adding more meat, so the order of ingredients stay the same? would the caloric content per cup also then increase? ...

meb999
September 15th, 2006, 03:46 PM
that is a strange concept to me... if the ingredients are exactly the same, how can the protein & fat levels be different? :confused: unless they are adding more meat, so the order of ingredients stay the same? would the caloric content per cup also then increase? ...

Yeah...there's a little more meat in it (I think they add alittle more salmon meal, so the ingredient order stays the same. Plus, there's more millet in the Wee Bit, and more calories....

Just a Wee Bit Adult (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Millet | Brown Rice | Cracked Pearled Barley | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Dried Chicory Root | Taurine | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

Crude Protein, Min 28%
Crude Fat, Min 18%
Crude Fiber, Max 4%
Moisture, Max 10%
380 kcal/cup

WolfKing Adult Dog (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

Protein, Min 22%
Fat, Min 9%
Fiber, Max 4%
Moisture, Max 10%
Calories per cup, 364

Skryker
September 15th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Oh, this so sucks that SG would do this...I really wonder why?

Prin, I'm still new to the food thing-I know the issues with brewer's yeast and menadione, but why no eggs? Is it an allergy thing, or worrying that the dried egg product is just egg and not shell?

mafiaprincess
September 15th, 2006, 03:57 PM
It's a stool hardener. It's just the fact that without the added grains it shouldn't *need* to be in there. And now there will be two to balance the new formula out..

Skryker
September 15th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Huh-I didn't realize that egg was a stool hardener. Thought it was just a protein source. That's why I love this site-ya learn something new every day! :thumbs up

mafiaprincess
September 15th, 2006, 04:24 PM
If you are just looking for poultry free good stuff, TO dakota bison could be on that list of more impossible to get but you know you wanna try foods.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:29 PM
No, I just don't want the egg in there in case Boo is allergic. Most of these foods I would have to special order at the very least, and I just can't take the chance that he might be intolerant to one ingredient from the start. It's very hard to switch Boo. It took me 4 months to get his stools solid after switching to WK and I must have taken 2-3 weeks at least to do the switch. He's a very sensitive guy.

There's nothing really wrong with egg, but "egg product" is nasty. It's cracked eggs, rotten eggs, etc not for human consumption.


Does anyone know if decreasing grain based fiber has a bad effect on the emptying of the anal glands Fast grains, like oats or corn speed things up and can cause loose stool. Beet pulp and tomato pomace slow things down (stool hardeners). The harder the stool, the better for the anal glands, but that can be accomplished by reducing the fast grains and not necessarily by adding stool hardeners.

Hard stool= empty anal glands (usually- some dogs' fill up either way).

In this case, SG upped the oat content (fast) so they compensated with tomato pomace to slow it down. Both are unnecessary and a cheap way to fill the food bag.:frustrated:


Also wondering what fake bacteria is??? Is that bacteria trying to be something it's not??? Must be bad bacteria doing that, not the good kind! I call it fake, because as phoenix explained, the bacteria isn't alive, and when they use "fermentation" product, that is not what is helping the dog (not the point of probiotics). Probiotics are supposed to come in and outcompete the bad bacteria for nutrients while helping the body perform certain functions. Neither fermentation products nor dead bacteria accomplish that. The names of the bacteria they use are great, but studies show their numbers aren't significant enough to be worth anything. Better to buy the probiotics in capsules that you keep in the fridge.

Too bad they're changing the wee bit too. :( Really kills the mojo about SG. I have a feeling they're going to lose a lot of customers. This isn't like Iams switching formulas. Most people who know about SG have done at least a little research. You rarely would just stumble on it without any idea of what it's about.

WK was really on the border of being too grainy and this just does it in for me. I didn't get a response from either SG or TO today... Fridays, eh?:p

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Oh, and yeah, Manitoba is on the west side- here's a map:
http://www.optimaldog.com/retailers/index.html

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:36 PM
it has dried chicken liver... and boo can't do anything chicken, right? :cool: Nope, no chicken at all.

Merrick was the next one I was going to look at because my store has the cans so I figured they could get the bags in too.

OntarioGreys
September 15th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Eggs tend to be very low allergy and a very highly disgestible protein source, one of the best complete proteins available and the amount in dog tends to be very little as it is usually very low down the list and is used mostly to help bind the ingredients, do you ever give the dogs a piece of bread or bun, breads contains eggs as well.


Fish diets may be great if they contain only deep water ocean fish like menhanden, herring but salmon is an big no-no to me especially for daily feeding, their fatty cells absorb a lot of carcingenic pollutants like PCB's and Mercury which is the reason humans are told not to eat more than 2 meals of a month. Most salmon that is used will be farmed salmon as wild salmon has stiff regulations as to when it can be caught, so not always available, and farmed salmon has much more toxins than wild , plus wild is much more expensive than farmed salmon which would likely more than double the cost if only wild pacific salmon was used. but even pacific salmon contain PCB's, after hatching they spend the first part of their life in inland rivers and that along the ocean shore until they are larger and they come back to the rivers to spawn and die, they never pass the toxins they simply are stored in their fatty cells so the bigger they are the more toxins they contain, the smaller salmon gets sold for human consumption the larger salmon goes to animal feed and processed as fertilizer, so if you feed a kibble with salmon it will have a higher PCB count than the salmon you buy for yourself

and this is the advice for farmed salmon for human consumption

"The combined concentrations of PCBs, toxaphene and deldrin trigger stringent consumption advice for farmed salmon purchased from wholesalers and for store-bought farmed fillets."

"The most restrictive advice (less than one-half meal of salmon per month), which reflects the highest health risks,....

"this study suggests that consumption of farmed salmon may result in exposure to a variety of persistent bioaccumulative contaminants with the potential for an elevation in attendant health risks."

[3] Dioxins and PCBs are implicated in causing cancers, hormone disruption, developmental and neurological problems. They accumulate in the fatty tissues of animals and humans.



For dogs that eat the same food day after day, salmon is one of the last things I want to see in the ingredient list in a kibble, other wise I may as well be feeding a a food with BHA/BHT

More info on salmon
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/09/MNG6C46KRV1.DTL



Timberwolf Organics is meant as a raw mixer or for those needing lower meat proteins, the amount of meat protien is low, it is not meant as a complete diet for active healthy dogs by itself, so unless you want to add raw meat to their diet it may not be the food choice you are looking for.

Ocean Blue
This formula may also be used for the feeding of animals that require a moderate protein diet because of disease and may be used in the management of canine obesity. Ocean Blue Canid Formula™ is fully balanced and meets the requirements of all life stages, but we do encourage the adding of meats such as muscle meats, organ meats, sweetbreads (thymus, pancreas), eggs etc.

Black Forest™ Canid Formula
This formula may also be used for the feeding of animals that require a low protein or low fat diet because of disease and may be used in the management of canine obesity. Black Forest Canid Formula™ is fully balanced and meets the requirements of all life stages, but we do encourage the adding of meats such as muscle meats, organ meats, sweetbreads (thymus, pancreas), eggs etc.

Dakota™ Bison Canid Formula

This formula may also be used for the feeding of animals that require a moderate protein diet because of disease and may be used in the management of canine obesity. Dakota Bison Canid Formula™ is fully balanced and meets the requirements of all life stages, but we do encourage the adding of meats such as muscle meats, organ meats, sweetbreads (thymus, pancreas), eggs etc.

meb999
September 15th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Nope, no chicken at all.

Merrick was the next one I was going to look at because my store has the cans so I figured they could get the bags in too.

All the dry merricks have chicken liver.....:frustrated:

SunGurl372
September 15th, 2006, 05:41 PM
I had Harley on the Merrick's for a short while between the Solid Gold and the Timberwolf. There's a post somewhere on here I started asking about which one to go with.

TO came out on top, because it was less grainy, I think but I'll have to look for it.

Harley loved the Merrick's too....I had her on the Wilderness Blend. The dried veggies they have in there are a hoot too....peas, carrots, and potato I think.

meb999
September 15th, 2006, 05:44 PM
Timberwolf Organics is meant as a raw mixer or for those needing lower meat proteins, the amount of meat protien is low, it is not meant as a complete diet for active healthy dogs by itself, so unless you want to add raw meat to their diet it may not be the food choice you are looking for.

Ocean Blue


Black Forest™ Canid Formula


Dakota™ Bison Canid Formula

All of those have a higher protein content than WK... (except the black forest, which is the same...) :confused: Why would you have to mix it with raw???

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:46 PM
OG, TO foods aren't too low - most are at 26% protein, which is still higher than most foods out there. They also say they use wild salmon. :shrug:

OntarioGreys
September 15th, 2006, 07:08 PM
I have searched the site " nowhere that I can find' does it state wild salmon used in the food though they do sell wild salmon oil as a supplement


as for human feeding of wild pacific salmon

Only wild Pacific salmon can be consumed at rates of ≥ 4 meals/month (1 meal/week)



Maybe timber wolf is agreeing with current research that says healthy dogs need a "minimum" of 30% protein and that may be the reason they suggest adding raw meat to the kibble, and why they consider 22 to 26% as low to moderate protein ;)


I know you are still wary of high protien but the way I look at it as I would not buy a custom made sportcar from someone who specialized and did all their research strictly on mopeds, so why buy a dogfood thats protein research is based on the health effects on rats(non carnivores)




I was looking for something else but came across this on labbies.com/nutrition_letters.htm that may be of interest to you Prin, it is not something I had heard of before but quite interesting, that feeding fish or fish supplements may actually increase the symptoms of food allergies

Additionally, a word of caution regarding diets containing fish products. Some dogs are predisposed to developing "non-allergic food reactions" to fish products. Many types of fish contain high levels of vaso-active chemicals that can cause spontaneous histamine release (immune reaction) or can lower the threshold for immune response and thus actually exacerbate symptoms associated with atopy or food allergies. In fact, I've had several Lab owners contact me with reports of their dogs exhibiting facial swelling following feeding their dogs fish-containing dietary supplements for the purpose of improving coat. This does not mean that all dogs will exhibit a contraindication to fish supplements, however, if one is feeding fish supplements or decides to try to incorporate fish-containing supplements one should remain vigilant for potential adverse reactions that might suggest hypersensitivity.


more on food allergies
http://www.labbies.com/foodreactions.htm

http://www.labbies.com/nutrition_letters.htm

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 07:23 PM
Maybe timber wolf is agreeing with current research that says healthy dogs need a "minimum" of 30% protein and that may be the reason they suggest adding raw meat to the kibble, and why they consider 22 to 26% as low to moderate protein

sorry to go :offtopic: again, but just to clarify: the protein levels we are talking about here only apply to KIBBLE food, and nothing in kibble is 100% bioavailable to the dog. In nature, raw meat contains an average of 16% protein but it has 100% bioavailability, meaning 100% digestible. cooking meats alters the chemistry of the food, hence the change in nutrient absorption. Carnivores do not ingest a 30% protein diet in the wild. It would make sense that by upping the protein % and quality in a kibble, you are closer to achieving the 16% needed by carnivores for optimal health. :) wow i hope i didn't confuse anyone with that, LOL!

OntarioGreys
September 15th, 2006, 07:56 PM
raw meat contains an average of 16% protein but it has 100% bioavailability

Raw meat depending on the type(example heart will have a slight lower water content and therefore have more protein) is 16% protein and 84% water that is the meats make up

not the same as the percentage of protein in the total diet, example you feed one pound of meat and 8 ounces of vegatable a day that is a total of 24 ounces, both have similiar water content in raw form, which will be absorbed in the digestive tract so the meat protein is then 60 % of the total raw diet.

this is the percent we are talking about, but many grains also contain protein which is why some foods may have higher protein and less real meat

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 08:13 PM
OG, you have me completely confused... sorry :o

say you are feeding your dog an exclusive prey model diet (no grains, no veggies). only meat, bones, organ meats. what would the average protein % be? as absorbed by the body?

OntarioGreys
September 15th, 2006, 08:35 PM
only meat, bones, organ meats. what would the average protein % be? as absorbed by the body?


The protein amount would be extremely high but you will also have fat, calcium and fiber from the bone as other percentages of the diet, the protein the body cannot use is excreted thru the urine, that is why scientists are now saying it is impossible to feed a dog too much protein, extra meat protein actually helps improve kidney filtration function and helps break down toxins. low protein diets do the exact opposite and can cause dogs with moderate kidney problems to actually go into full renal failure. only dogs in the later stages of renal failure have problems with protein due to phosphurous but nowadays phosphurous binders are available to allow the dog to still eat sufficient protein to prevent malnutrition

But too much bones in a diet can be an issue as it can raise calcium levels too high

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 08:45 PM
OG, thank you for the explanation! it makes sense. and by following a prey-model diet, the bone-to-meat ratio is perfectly balanced, what a beaut!

sorry for the threadjack folks. sometimes it just happens :shrug:

phoenix
September 16th, 2006, 02:42 PM
I did a quick check at my store while purchasing food today and found this one,



Ingredients:

Salmon Meal, Salmon, Oatmeal, Whole Oats, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols [Vitamin E], Citric Acid [Vitamin C] and Rosemary extract), Oat Fiber, Inulin (FOS), Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Yeast Culture, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), dl Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, **Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, **Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, **Manganese Proteinate, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulphate Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12.
** These items are chelated minerals.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein - (min) - 22.00%
Crude Fat - (min) - 12.00%
Crude Fiber - (max) - 3.80%
Moisture - (min) - 10.00%
Omega 6 Fatty Acids - 2.75%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids - 0.30%
Vitamin E - (min) - 200 IU/kg

Unfortunately it has the menadione sodium bisulphate. That's the only one I found that hasn't been mentioned already :sorry:

rainbow
September 16th, 2006, 05:24 PM
It doesn't have menadione in it anymore. They are just using up their supply of empty bags. Once the supply is used up the new bags will not list it as an ingredient. ;)

Prin
September 16th, 2006, 09:20 PM
Yeah, I always forget about that one because it's not on the petcurean website yet (still). I might be able to get that one somewhere... maybe...

OG, if I can't feed chicken or salmon, what's left? Just lamb, beef or "wild" meats? hmm.... I'd rather the salmon... I don't think dogs live long enough to have the carcinogenic effects of the salmon...

technodoll
September 16th, 2006, 11:40 PM
hey prin, silly question... why do jemma & boo have to eat the same food? are they free-fed?... just curious, cuz their allergies are not the same, if i remember?... :o

Prin
September 16th, 2006, 11:45 PM
No, they're not the same allergies and technically they don't have to eat the same food, but if I find a food for Boo, it works for Jemma too. :shrug: Jemma's easy.

technodoll
September 16th, 2006, 11:51 PM
no, it makes sense to buy one food for both, much simpler re: buying in bulk and the food stays fresher cuz it gets eaten faster. man, i really hope you find something soon! :fingerscr

Prin
September 16th, 2006, 11:53 PM
My man said he'd front me the cash to buy whatever obscene number of bags TO makes you buy. I just might become that distributer you've all been craving (the only problem is, where to put it all? :eek: ).

erykah1310
September 16th, 2006, 11:55 PM
K, please forgive me here, but I am lost....:confused: I really have been trying to keep up with this thread ( new interst of mine)
However, too many %ages and so on.
I just need to ask... what are you guys talking about when you say TO?

technodoll
September 16th, 2006, 11:57 PM
Timberwolf Organics, the company that makes the food we all want but can't get here out east, LOL! :D

Prin
September 16th, 2006, 11:57 PM
tsk, tsk. :rolleyes: Keep up Erykah! :D

TO is Timberwolf Organics. We can't get it here still.
www.timberwolforganics.com

Prin
September 16th, 2006, 11:58 PM
Same time, same post (only one is far more sarcastic than the other *coughtechno'scough*) does it count as a double post?:D

technodoll
September 16th, 2006, 11:59 PM
nah we'll let that one slide, your post had a website link! :crazy:

hey i'll buy a bag if you get lots! :thumbs up

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:00 AM
:o I's sowwy :o
I'm really trying to keep up!
LOL :D
Is there a particular reason we cant get it "out east"?

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:01 AM
No distributer yet apparently. :shrug:

Skryker
September 17th, 2006, 12:04 AM
I was talking to my husband about distributorship tonight, too! But I was thinking of going whole hog and figuring out which top quality foods you can't get around here. I'd need a business plan and loan, though. :shrug: Probably not likely. That, and it's too small here to support another pet supply place, I'm sure.

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:07 AM
Yeah.. How far is cornwall from Montreal?

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:07 AM
I was talking to my husband about distributorship tonight, too! But I was thinking of going whole hog and figuring out which top quality foods you can't get around here. I'd need a business plan and loan, though. :shrug: Probably not likely. That, and it's too small here to support another pet supply place, I'm sure.

Its small here too, but if you were to carry the best of the best kinda thing, its like waynes world..." you build it... they will come"

How much would one have to order to buy online? Or can you even do it?

Skryker
September 17th, 2006, 12:10 AM
Yeah.. How far is cornwall from Montreal?

I think it's about an hour? I've been told you can be in Montreal in 45 mins from here, but that would be the outskirts, I'm sure.

Still tossing around the idea-high quality foods, toys, treats...what we have here is Pet Valu and 2 Berry's Pet Foods. Plus Wal-mart. That's kind of a lot of competition for a place with pop 46,000.

Skryker
September 17th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Its small here too, but if you were to carry the best of the best kinda thing, its like waynes world..." you build it... they will come"

How much would one have to order to buy online? Or can you even do it?

I dunno yet. Have to look into that, too. I have a big garage that could potentially work for storage, but it would need some work first. Hmmm.

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Yeah... you'd need to convert a lot of people.:D

Skryker
September 17th, 2006, 12:14 AM
And judging by the stream of huge bags of Ol' Roy I see leaving Wallyworld, it would be a SLOWWWWW process.

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:16 AM
I can just see you outside WM with your signs:
DESTROY
Ol'Roy
walking back and forth all by yourself chanting....

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:19 AM
I can just see you outside WM with your signs:
DESTROY
Ol'Roy
walking back and forth all by yourself chanting....
Thats a hilarious mental picture.:D
It would be hard to convince people that their dog food sucks ( took me a while) and well frankly... sad to say, some people just dont care.
I'd put together a buisness plan, do some market research and see from there

Skryker
September 17th, 2006, 12:20 AM
:o I'd be biting the hand that feeds me, unfortunately! Hubby works for a place whose sole client is Wallyworld.

MUST... APPEASE....CORPERATE...OVERLORDS....Oh, I mean "benevolent commercial entity", of course. :D

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:22 AM
:sorry: :offtopic: I havent stepped foot in a wally world for 1.5 years now... Had a VERY bad experience there ( manager) and well that did it for me.
The quality of service has seriously dropped around here.

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:25 AM
See, I'm talking on a much smaller scale... Like Techno wants some and Meb... and we just trial and error it for the first shot and then figure out a routine of ordering if we decide to stay on it...:shrug: :o

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:27 AM
Is there a minimum for shipping requirements? It would suck if you had to order like 30-50 bags inorder to get some to you.
Has anyone heard back from SG yet?

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:29 AM
It's either 7.5 bags or 15 bags... I'm still waiting for TO to clarify...

Haven't heard from SG yet, but it's still the weekend.:D

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:32 AM
why wont the store that you get the SG from carry it?
Im gonna ask where i get mine ( although i still have lots of the OLD recipe)

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:36 AM
No, I'm going to try talking to the owner again, but I doubt she can get it without a distributer.:shrug: I have a lot of shopping around to do this week.:rolleyes:

erykah1310
September 17th, 2006, 12:38 AM
Well Prin, I hope you get this figured out. I couldnt imagine being in your shoes right now, At least for me with my dogs, there eating WK because i want them too, not because they have too ( allergies)

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:39 AM
Yeah, I don't think I could handle Boo puking every night again. I don't think he could either. He hasn't thrown up in so long.:fingerscr

Frenchy
September 17th, 2006, 12:43 AM
I just discovered (few weeks back) Sam has allergies too! 2 of my 3 have them :mad: Sam had to be put on Vanectyl and it made him pee like crazy!

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 12:45 AM
And still nobody is inventing a real hypoallergenic dog- as in is less likely to have allergies than other dogs.:rolleyes:

Frenchy
September 17th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Sorry to say this about goldens but I have 3,my sister has 2.She has one with allergies so that makes 3/5 with allergies :eek: Bailey has seasonal allergies + the poultry one and probably beef too.So he has to be on Vanectyl from the time snow melts until November :(

SuperWanda
September 17th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Just noticed on the Go Natural Salmon and Oatmeal site - they claim to use wild west coast salmon. However in the ingredients it just lists it as salmon meal and salmon.

I sent an e-mail to Timberwolf Organics to ask where they get their salmon meal from cause it doesn't really say. They do label their oil as wild and distilled to remove environmental toxins.

....if anyone is concerned about wild vs farmed salmon.

It is better to eat wild but like Prin said, would the shortness of our dogs lives make it necessary to avoid this exposure? - perhaps the health benefits that come from eating salmon is more important?

SuperWanda
September 17th, 2006, 07:28 PM
This is a reply I recieved from Petcurean about their Go Natural Salmon and Oatmeal formula. I ask if the salmon and salmon meal they use is wild or farmed:


Hello Thank-you for your enquiry. The salmon we use in all of our products is wild, wild, wild! I have included a link to our website that has some great articles for you to peruse. www.petfoodallergies.com If you have further questions, please ask. Thank-you.

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Cool, thanks SuperWanda.:)

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 10:53 PM
so prin, will you be trying it out? :confused:

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 10:55 PM
If I can find it... Right now, I'm accumulating ok foods and this week, I'm going hunting. :D

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 11:01 PM
when you find good stuff, please let us know! and you're lucky your dogs aren't picky... imagine finally finding THE only food, it's perfect, and boo hates it! :eek: but boo's good, he'll love the new stuff i'm sure. just the variety will be enough to make him scarf it down! :crazy:

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 11:04 PM
Boo isn't too picky. He eats almost anything, but all very slowly. Jemma is picky. She won't touch Wellness foods... As long as the food is meaty (which it will be, of course), she'll be ok. I actually thought of putting her on Evo alone... She has been getting kinda skinny lately and that affects her estrogen levels, which is no fun for her... I think she'd do well on Evo, being a carnivore to the core. Boo is more of an omnivore (keep an eye on your potatoes!!:D).

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 11:07 PM
LOL! i can just picture boo stealthily stealing a french-fry off your plate... :D

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 11:13 PM
He does the side-lick. He seems like he's far away, but then he tilts his head and the frog-like tongue just side swipes your plate and catches all the potato content of your plate.:D He got six potato halves in one lick once.:rolleyes:

vfrohloff
September 18th, 2006, 09:35 AM
Prin, have you thought about trying Holistic Blend? My Benny has many of the same problems your Boo has and he does really well on the Holistic Blend Lamb and Rice. No more barfs, and one nice looking poop per day. It took me a really long time to find something that works for him (he is allergic to chicken AND eggs). www.holisticblend.com

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 09:59 AM
Lamb, whole ground millet, ground brown rice, whole ground barley, salmon, nutritional yeast, amaranth, flax seed, canola oil, alfalfa, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, L-lysine, cranberries, yucca schidigera extracts, garlic powder, cinnamon powder, rosemary extracts, ferrous sulphate, zinc oxide, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, manganous oxide, zinc proteinate, niacin, vitamin A acetate, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, manganese proteinate, thiamin mononitrate, colbalt sulphate, biotin, riboflavin, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, copper proteinates, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin K1 supplement, folic acidIt's just really grainy... Grains make up the bulk of the ingredients by far (once you dehydrate the meats, they fall far down the list). And at 22%, it's starting to get low in the protein department. No bad ingredients though.:o

mafiaprincess
September 18th, 2006, 04:26 PM
We got a dvp one that I think includes chicken fat and wouldn't work on your crew.. But Cider is a picky lady, and she's quite happy with the dvp so far. :shrug:

rainbow
September 18th, 2006, 07:00 PM
It's just really grainy... Grains make up the bulk of the ingredients by far (once you dehydrate the meats, they fall far down the list). And at 22%, it's starting to get low in the protein department. No bad ingredients though.:o


Except for the Vitamin K1 supplement too.

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 07:19 PM
No K1 is ok. K3 is menadione.;)

rainbow
September 18th, 2006, 09:55 PM
I don't trust any of it. If Vitamin K can be obtained naturally then that's what I want. :o

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Me too.:shrug: Multivitamins give me muscle cramps after just one pill. I can just imagine being forced to eat one every day.

technodoll
September 18th, 2006, 10:14 PM
i had no idea multivitamins could do that! :eek:

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 10:18 PM
Yeah... Neither did my Dr... It was pretty harsh.. I drink a lot of milk, so I think having more calcium than that, especially unnatural calcium, overloaded my muscles.:shrug: With my thyroid crap, I'm at risk of osteoporosis, so I have to take vitamin D, so he just made me take a multivitamin and I was up all night with leg cramps. :rolleyes: Never had leg cramps before, so I switched to only vitamin D and they stopped.:shrug: