Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Solid Gold Wolf King ingredients change!

SuperWanda
September 14th, 2006, 10:25 AM
So - I just got the new Solid Gold pamphlet in the mail and it looks like the ingredients have changed for the Solid Gold Wolf King:

Although the bag I have is still the old version.

Here is the new version from the pamphlet:

Bison, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Millet, Cracked Pearled Barley, Rice Brain, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.

They actually have Rice Brain listed - how do they exactly extract the brain from the rice - must be difficult? :D

SuperWanda
September 14th, 2006, 10:34 AM
Now that I look - the hund-n-flocken is different too:

Lamb, Lamb Meal, Ocean Fish Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Cracked Pearled Barley, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Rice Bran, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Amaranth, Parsley Flakes, Spearmint, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Kelp, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Apples, Lentils, Quinoa, Vitamins and Minerals.

Wow - some healthy looking stuff! I just cooked up some quinoa for the first time the other night and wondered if it would be a good grain for dogs - a little expensive but a very complete protein source - for a grain!

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 10:42 AM
wow... they're actually downgrading their ingredients?... doesn't look too spectacular anymore... :(

Bison, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Millet, Cracked Pearled Barley, Rice Brain, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.


One meat source: salmon meal
Followed by 5 grains (mmmm rice brain!)
then the other meat source (bison, when you take the moisture out, it falls behind the list..)
canola oil is not the best
tomato pomace is not a good ingredient
natural flavor... what is that??
...and then the other ingredients are in such small quantities (since after the 1st source of fat) that they offer practically no benefits other than flavorings... if anything is left after all that cooking process.

sounds pretty expensive for a very grainy kibble IMO. and some not-so-great ingredients in there now. hmmm. guess they can get away with it now, since they're riding on a "good reputation" and who looks at & dissects ingredients anyways? well except people like us, LOL!

SuperWanda
September 14th, 2006, 10:59 AM
I agree with you on the Wolf King - I actually just e-mailed them to ask what the Natural Flavor is. I also asked what the amount (in pounds) of meat they use compared to grain.

I think the Hund-N-Flocken looks better though - with the three first ingredients. Don't like the tomato pomace either but there could be worse things I guess.

I'll let you know what their response is regarding the natural flavour.

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 11:23 AM
be sure to also ask them what "Ocean Fish Meal" is... if the source is not identified (sardine meal, salmon meal, etc) then it's a questionable ingredient... aka "mystery meat" :pawprint:

SunGurl372
September 14th, 2006, 11:49 AM
Prin's not going to be too pleased....

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 11:55 AM
yeah :( but still not a reason to stop feeding it. :shrug: IMO, there is a LOT of competition out there now and companies should be upgrading their ingredients, not the other way around.

with all the money SG is making though... you'd think they would hire a proofreader for the literature they send out! :p their website has not been updated yet re: new ingredients.

all kidding aside... i wonder why they felt the recipe needed a change?

Puppyluv
September 14th, 2006, 12:07 PM
The changes don't seem that different, Looking at ingredients before the canola oil (which was always included) the only difference is that oatmeal is now the most prominent grain, and if you look immediately after the oil, tomato pomace and natural flavors are added. How much of a difference does switching a grain and then changing the final ingredients make?

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 12:10 PM
i guess it,s about playing with the "purity" of the ingredients. other kibbles are now more on par if you compare the overall formula. why did they add tomato pomace and "natural flavor" if the original recipe was good to begin with? :confused: it's just cheap additions... no nutritional value. you know?

Puppyluv
September 14th, 2006, 12:13 PM
i guess it,s about playing with the "purity" of the ingredients. other kibbles are now more on par if you compare the overall formula. why did they add tomato pomace and "natural flavor" if the original recipe was good to begin with? :confused: it's just cheap additions... no nutritional value. you know?
True, but like you said, I don't think it quanitfies a change in foods. If I was already feeding it, I wouldn't change just because of this.

SuperWanda
September 14th, 2006, 12:18 PM
Looks like all the formulas are different - comparing the old and new pamphlets. Adding the same new stuff they have added to the wolfking and hund-n-flocken.

I'll send another e-mail about the ocean fish meal - never thought about that - thanks!

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 12:25 PM
I don't think it quanitfies a change in foods. If I was already feeding it, I wouldn't change just because of this.

i never said this... read below, i said but still not a reason to stop feeding it. IMO, there is a LOT of competition out there now and companies should be upgrading their ingredients, not the other way around. :)

just trying to be objective.

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 12:30 PM
We discussed the "pomace" ingredients a little while ago. Tomato pomace isn't bad but I wonder why they added it?

Not a big enough diff to stop feeding it IMO although "rice brain" sounds kinda yucky. :D

Puppyluv
September 14th, 2006, 12:45 PM
i never said this... read below, i said :)

just trying to be objective.
huh? what did you mean by "yeah but still not a reason to stop feeding it." then?

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 12:50 PM
i meant "yeah not a reason to stop feeding it".

i don't see what you don't see? :confused:

the addition of the new ingredients is not a reason to stop feeding the kibble. maybe i should use more words :D

Puppyluv
September 14th, 2006, 01:02 PM
i meant "yeah not a reason to stop feeding it".

i don't see what you don't see? :confused:

the addition of the new ingredients is not a reason to stop feeding the kibble. maybe i should use more words :D
I was just agreeing with you... but then you said that you never said that (I mean obviously not the same words, but I was just saying that, like you, I didn't think it was a good reason to switch foods)

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Sure can be frustrating trying to communicate in cyberspace. :D

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 01:43 PM
good lord! my head is spinning! LOL

i know we all speak English here but sometimes... words are like stumbling blocks, uugghhh. anyways. YES we are agreeing to the same thing, cuz we be good folks! :D :thumbs up

:offtopic: but... hard day today. nevermind the rain, last night's insomnia, my pms headache, this morning bf tried to intervene in a dog scruffle and ended up at the hospital with 5 stitches to his right hand. of course he had forgotten to renew his health insurance card last year, so had to pay $500 for the visit. and got a parking ticket to top it off. do i feel happy today? not really... so please forgive me :(

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 01:58 PM
but... hard day today. nevermind the rain, last night's insomnia, my pms headache, this morning bf tried to intervene in a dog scruffle and ended up at the hospital with 5 stitches to his right hand. of course he had forgotten to renew his health insurance card last year, so had to pay $500 for the visit. and got a parking ticket to top it off. do i feel happy today? not really... so please forgive me


Still :offtopic:

Aww, TD, sorry to hear about your crappy day. :grouphug:

Was the scruffle with the beanies? :confused: Bummer about the parking ticket. Will he get reimbursed from your health insurance? :fingerscr

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 02:11 PM
(apologies in advance for hijack, will get back on topic after this....)

Was the scruffle with the beanies? Bummer about the parking ticket. Will he get reimbursed from your health insurance?

scuffle was another dog humping dakotah at the park. of course neither dog got a scratch... and the idiot owner (a little lady) said it happened all the time but usually her dog submitted when put on its back. today it didn't. :shrug: anyways... hubby is in deep **** with me and he know it. I think he can get reimbursed for the hospital visit but lord only knows... hey does anyone here know?...

note to self: should start a new thread.... :o

mafiaprincess
September 14th, 2006, 09:07 PM
Anyone going to write a grouchy email?

I need to buy dog food.. likely it will be an old bag.. likely I'll be switching after this bag because I'm unimpressed and will point out they are losing my business.

erykah1310
September 14th, 2006, 09:15 PM
When did this switch take place??
WTF??? Just FINALLY put my dogs on a good food and now it too isnt good??
I cant wait to start the raw diet!:frustrated: Atleast then ( with a little research) I'll know that theyll be eating GOOD food!

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 09:20 PM
I done it already (emailed).:frustrated: I'm so pissed. Yes, tomato pomace and natural flavoring is enough to warrant a switch. When you're paying $71 (incl tax) for a bag, you don't want tomato pomace (by-product with pesticides on it!) in it, nor do you want mystery flavoring either when you are feeding this food because of sensitivities..:mad:

What they did was boost the fast fibers (GRAINS!!! :mad: ) and then add slow fiber (tomato pomace) to harden it up. And since the grains have to replace something, of course it's the meat, so it doesn't taste as good, so hey, let's add flavor!! :mad::mad: :mad: What flavor? That's in my email. I don't trust "natural flavor". Usually that's chicken. Merrr!!

People suck.

But like I've always said, WK is great until somebody proves otherwise. And so they have.

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 09:23 PM
When did this switch take place??
WTF??? Just FINALLY put my dogs on a good food and now it too isnt good??
I cant wait to start the raw diet!:frustrated: Atleast then ( with a little research) I'll know that theyll be eating GOOD food!
It hasn't happened yet, but it's coming. Sorry, Erykah.:sad:

wdawson
September 14th, 2006, 09:25 PM
the food is still good....and safe.......i'm still feeding atleast untill i find something scary.........i still think that its a high quality food......the price did drop at my supplier though.....$6.00 on the mid size bag.:rolleyes:

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 09:38 PM
interesting re: the price drop. is this happening anywhere else?

prin... i'm so sorry :( i hope you get a speedy and satisfactory reply from SG. :pawprint:

erykah1310
September 14th, 2006, 09:38 PM
I dont know much about dog food, and im not going to claim that i do.
But what Prin sais about the grains and tomato pomace makes sence. To me it seems like its almost borderline vegitarian! ( just my take) however im not going to put them back on Pedigree or anything like that.
But for just over $80 a bag ( round here anyway) it seems kind of nuts!

SuperWanda
September 14th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Not that I know as much as you guys but in my pamphlet it says the tomato pomace is a source of lycopene, a potent antioxidant. I understand the pesticide concern - don't know if they use organic tomatoes - can't find anything saying that.

My pamphlet also describes the ocean fish meal as fish rich in iron, calcium and vitamins A&D, as well as EFA's (but it doesn't specifically say what species of fish).

Still haven't heard any replies about what the natural flavor is.

We'll have to see what they say - I hope they reply soon - the last time I asked questions the answers came the next day! Maybe these are harder question though...:confused:

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Yeah it did go down over here last winter too. I wondered why. The cynic in me thinks they knew all along and just roped us in with great ingredients before pulling the switcheroo. IMO, that's why there's such a difference in quality between the WK and the Hundnflocken- Hund is older, so they probably already switched it a while ago. :frustrated:

Then they switched Barking after the initial entusiastic word-of-mouth went around... (Now potatoes are #1)

They just wait until they think you're not going to look at the ingredients anymore and then they pull the switch.

Very aggravating and they have to send me the ultimate email ever to stop me from switching at this point.

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 09:46 PM
Not that I know as much as you guys but in my pamphlet it says the tomato pomace is a source of lycopene, a potent antioxidant. I understand the pesticide concern - don't know if they use organic tomatoes - can't find anything saying that.
If lycopene was what they were after, they'd put whole tomatoes in there. But they don't. They put the peels and juiceless crap in there as a stool hardener.

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 09:50 PM
Very aggravating and they have to send me the ultimate email ever to stop me from switching at this point.

or a year's free supply of WK! so there :D

all kidding aside... it's a bit depressing that you can't trust any company these days. always sneaky marketing lurking around. whether it's the size of the bag of chips that shrinks while the price stays the same, or a suble change of ingredients in food (pet or human) that MOST people would never notice unless you're really vigilent... i just hate feeling like the wool is being pulled over my eyes. ya know?...

if SG were honest, they would at least put "new recipe" or "new formula" or something like that on their new bags. who knows... they might? :confused:

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 09:52 PM
or a year's free supply of WK! so there only if it was pomaceless and natural flavor free...

I did notice on the new Hundnflocken and Holistique blendz bags there was a little thing bragging about their anniversary or something, but it wasn't on the WK so I figured this was an older bag and I'd worry about it next time. :shrug: I really have to figure out a way to get the Timberwolf Ocean blue here fast.

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Wasn't there news somewhere, not too long ago, that Solid Gold changed ownership? I think I heard that there were two partners and one bought the other one out. :shrug:

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 10:01 PM
I dunno. That sort of thing isn't broadcast.. Affects the reputation... I thought there was only one lady who owned it...:shrug:

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 10:05 PM
it's amazing how many top kibbles are available only in BC :frustrated: i found 3 or 4 that alot of folks here would love to get their hands on. :dog: NO FAIR!

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 10:08 PM
They also have a lot more high end doggy spas and things over there too.:shrug:

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Enlighten me...what's the 2 or 3 dog foods we got that you don't besides Timberwolf?

Prin, I'm going to see if I can find the story (rumour?) about the split with the two owners.

mafiaprincess
September 14th, 2006, 10:19 PM
WK is still the old ingredient list on the site so it hasn't happened yet, and you may still get old bags for a while.

I'm also not paying prices like that for crummier food. Tomato pomace isn't worth much. Nor is the grainier factor. That's not what I'm paying for.

It's irrelevant what their pamphlet says. It's all pro company propaganda in reality. They can tell you all they like, like other companies pushing synth. vitamin K as awesome.

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 10:22 PM
TO is a very important one... Other than that, some foods we have access to but only if we special order. Like the Evo red meat- have to special order. Or any DVP that isn't duck.

Of course, I'm going to have to shop around but from what I hear, most stores carry one or two formulas per company and maybe 4 or 5 holistic companies, so that's not a lot of choice.:shrug:

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 10:27 PM
Enlighten me...what's the 2 or 3 dog foods we got that you don't besides Timberwolf?

http://www.petchefexpress.ca/

http://www.pets1st.com/pets1st.asp?prodmenu=81&crumbs=%20%3E%20Dog%20%3E%20Food%20%3E%20Dry

and timberwolf organics... i can find a few others i'm sure! :)

technodoll
September 14th, 2006, 10:30 PM
prin! now is the time... new kitchen, new freezer, new diet: go raw! LOL :D

man i've been searching non-stop and it's TOUGH to find limited-ingredient holistic foods (nothing chicken, for example). :confused:

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 10:34 PM
yep, very hard.
I'm going to have to scour the town for somebody who is willing to order me something else. I'm gonna have to compile a list.

rainbow
September 14th, 2006, 10:38 PM
TD.... the Pet Chef Express one has Vitamin K listed as an ingredient and I bet it is definitely menadione. The other site I couldn't find an ingredient list.


Prin...besides the TO how come the store can't get all the Innova and DVP products? If they can get one they should be able to order whatever you want with no additional cost to them. :confused:

Prin
September 14th, 2006, 10:41 PM
They can order them, but they need notice... It's hard to never forget... Much easier if they have it in stock, you know...

:offtopic: Techno! They're listening to you! http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/RAW.html

Scott_B
September 15th, 2006, 06:21 AM
They can order them, but they need notice... It's hard to never forget... Much easier if they have it in stock, you know...

:offtopic: Techno! They're listening to you! http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/RAW.html

Very interesting..

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 08:27 AM
definitely a new trend... "premium" petfood companies/ labels are now selling their own versions of pre-made raw foods. :highfive: i'm so happy. this means the consumer demand for natural foods is increasing! the only drawback is that premade raw food is very expensive for the average dog owner, unless you have a small dog that doesn't eat much. so it's not accessible to everyone :frustrated: thankfully the alternative is there: make your own! just have to spread the word.

hey prin, any progress on finding a new food for the kids? :confused: I can't wait to see what SG writes back to you and :fingerscr it's d*mned good!

Esaunders
September 15th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Can anyone put up the new ingredients lists for the Mmillennium & Barking at the Moon?

I need to go shopping soon and want to make a decision re: whether it is still worth the money. BatM is pretty pricy.

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 09:16 AM
Mmillennia:

Beef, Beef meal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, Millet, Rice Bran, Canola Oil, Ocean Fish Meal, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.


Barking at the Moon:

Salmon Meal, Beef, Potatoes, Potato Protein, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil (Source of DHA), Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 09:19 AM
I haven't actually noticed that they are selling these new formulas yet - everything I have seen is still the old stuff - probably take a little while to get rid of the old before they are distributing the new????

Esaunders
September 15th, 2006, 09:23 AM
Thanks a bunch!

Hmmm ... look like BatM hasn't changed from what I'm using but they've really been changing around the Mmillenium formula

Puppyluv
September 15th, 2006, 11:33 AM
TD, could you imagine measuring out ~130 cubes of the frozen food for dakotah?:eek: (24 cubes/8 oz, 42 oz for 100 lbs=126 cubes, dakotah would probably need even more
)

Scott_B
September 15th, 2006, 11:42 AM
For sure! It definitely shows that they are listening to the consumers. BUT as you also pointed out, high demand usually means high prices. For the average person who would like to feed a raw diet but doesn't feel they have the time to do it, this might appeal. But wow, most of these pre-made raw diets, you almost have to have a small dog to feed them. No way I could feed my Bullmastiff on some of these diets!

definitely a new trend... "premium" petfood companies/ labels are now selling their own versions of pre-made raw foods. :highfive: i'm so happy. this means the consumer demand for natural foods is increasing! the only drawback is that premade raw food is very expensive for the average dog owner, unless you have a small dog that doesn't eat much. so it's not accessible to everyone :frustrated: thankfully the alternative is there: make your own! just have to spread the word.

hey prin, any progress on finding a new food for the kids? :confused: I can't wait to see what SG writes back to you and :fingerscr it's d*mned good!

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 11:50 AM
TD, could you imagine measuring out ~130 cubes of the frozen food for dakotah

heck NO! :eek: it's ridiculous. there are premade mixes that are sold in 1/2 lb frozen patties, which is much better to deal with when you have a bigger dog, but still! :eek:

i'm curious about the dehydrated food though. I don't know anyone who feeds this... anyone here? yes? no? raise your hands! :D

Scott_B
September 15th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Yeah..126 cubes omg lol.

I've seen the dehydrated at our pet store but I dont know anyone who feeds it either. Seems interesting.

What gets me about all these foods is that you miss out on one of the main benifits from feeding raw. Crunching bones helps keep teeth nice and white. My pup inhales kibble. Theres no chewing at all when he eats kibble. Hell when he ate chicken it was chomp chomp gulp! lol I think i have a vid somewhere here with him eating some chicken.


For anyone interested...
right click & save
http://www.scottsite.ca/images/Bullies/june%2027/Roscochickenwing.wmv

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 12:22 PM
scott what a cuuuutie! :cloud9: what a good puppy he was. you should hear the crunch-fest at my house when the dogs attack the bonier stuff, LOL! you either love that sound, or it makes your hair stand on end. i'm in-between, it depends on my mood i think :D

i'm tempted to buy a bag of that dehydrated stuff to try it out next time i travel with the pooches. i just don't know if they would like it :confused:

Scott_B
September 15th, 2006, 12:42 PM
Thanks..gezz that was almost 3 months ago now. Back in june. Hes much larger now. Should be around the 65lb mark if I had to guess.

I dont mind the crunching sound. The only one that gets to me is when he brings a bit back up to chew it some more. That gaging kinda sound..that gets to me lol :p

Doh, I've taken this way off topic :angel:

mafiaprincess
September 15th, 2006, 12:47 PM
I just bought 33 pounds of wk.. lady who owns it was horrified about changes coming up she hadn't heard and she's totally on tha bal on food..

The barking she had was new ingredients though.. and the wolf king was still okay..
And she had evo RM on the shelf.. I decided to try a 5 pound bag of dvp for now.. since I don't want the new barking either..

technodoll
September 15th, 2006, 12:53 PM
I dont mind the crunching sound. The only one that gets to me is when he brings a bit back up to chew it some more. That gaging kinda sound..that gets to me lol

i've heard about dogs doing that :eek: luckily... hasn't happened here! big dogs, big tummies, LOL!

sorry for going :offtopic: too.... it's hard to stay on track when talking about food, isn't it? So, has anyone heard back from SG yet? :fingerscr

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Haven't heard anything yet :(

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:43 PM
Me neither. No reply from the company. Are you sure the flyer you got was legit? Probably is.

Still haven't figured out what to feed my furries either.

Skryker
September 15th, 2006, 05:45 PM
thedogfoodproject.com lists the new ingredients for SG foods, now, so I guess it's happened already.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Well, the bag I got yesterday still has the old ingredients, or at least the bag says it does... But no stomach upset in Boo leads me to believe I got an old bag.

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 05:48 PM
btw SuperWanda thank you for posting this. Without you, I might not have notice to find a new food for Boo. :grouphug:

SuperWanda
September 15th, 2006, 06:02 PM
Prin,

I'm afraid it is legit - it is the actually solid gold catalog - sent by SG themselves.

You don't need to thank me - I should be thanking you and the others here for helping me decipher these food labels. That's why I noticed because I was looking so closely at this new catalog!

mafiaprincess
September 15th, 2006, 07:30 PM
I also purchased an old bag today.. and the ingredients on the SG site haven't changed for WK yet so I think there's still a window of time.. between them makign said 'new' food, and it making it to the stores.

mummummum
September 16th, 2006, 12:42 AM
fyi Technodoll: The grrrls tried two buckets of the dehydrated raw but never again ~ I've never seen so much poop in all my life.

I think I've posted this elsewhere but I guess it bears repeating. Global - Beaches emailed me advising that they expect to have TO on the shelves by the end of September.

Scott_B
September 17th, 2006, 09:00 AM
just spoke a friend who feeds NRG. She loves it. Has three pups and switched from raw to the NRG. I think its like any food, some dogs will like it, others wont.

SuperWanda
September 17th, 2006, 09:12 AM
What is NRG?

Joey.E.CockersMommy
September 17th, 2006, 09:33 AM
Are they changing the Just a Weebit too? - I dont have a pamphlet so I would actually need to bring the bag to the computer to compare - I didnt see any tomato pomace in the Just a Wee Bit - when I checked online.

SuperWanda
September 17th, 2006, 09:50 AM
Yes - Just a Wee Bit has also changed - same as the WolfKing but the Wee Bits has more protein and fat still:

Bison, Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Millet, Cracked Pearled Barley, Rice Bran, Canola Oil, Tomato Pomace, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.

OntarioGreys
September 17th, 2006, 10:42 AM
What is NRG?


http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/

SuperWanda
September 17th, 2006, 11:18 AM
I didn't even realize that they made dehydrated foods for dogs!!!!

Must be hard to find - or maybe I haven't opened my eyes to it.

Must be expensive - I would imagine feeding raw is cheaper but dehydrated gives you the convenience.

coppperbelle
September 17th, 2006, 06:48 PM
I am not impressed by the change in ingredients. I drive out of way every couple of months so that I can get this food for my dogs. I recommend it to everyone and now they change it and not for the better. I will also send them an e-mail and a copy of this thread.
DVP is easier for me to buy so I just may have to go with a food switch.

rainbow
September 17th, 2006, 07:15 PM
thedogfoodproject.com lists the new ingredients for SG foods, now, so I guess it's happened already.

Is anyone else having trouble accessing mordanna's site?

www.dogfoodproject.com

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 07:56 PM
yeah, the site is hanging up on me, too. it happens sometimes :shrug:

mafiaprincess
September 17th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Still isn't working for me..

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 09:55 PM
http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/
Hmm... they don't have any ingredient lists on there...:rolleyes: They've got a beef one and a buffalo one though....

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 10:45 PM
it's there, just have to dig for it (bad design IMO!) http://www.nrgpetproducts.com/pg3ingredients.html

but here is better: http://www.olee.com/nrg.htm just click on a formula and you will see the ingredients. however not updated with the new Bison recipe. OMG i would have to feed dakotah 6 cups of this stuff per day (plus add water so it plumps up, you get what, 10 cups of food?) he would NEVER eat this much, LOL! and imagine the poops! scary.

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Yeah, I saw that, but that's not a real ingredient list. It doesn't tell you the exact order. The other one doesn't either... They pretend they do, but they don't.:rolleyes:

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 10:52 PM
how's this? http://dogs.about.com/od/dietandnutrition/f/NRG_beef.htm i would assume the ingredients are in order, by pre-processed weight? :fingerscr

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 10:54 PM
It's got turkey liver (bad for Boo) and wheat germ (bad for Jemma). Oats are also #1 on the list.:rolleyes:

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 11:03 PM
no no, i didn't mean how's this as in "would you feed it", LOL! i meant "how's this for list of ingredients cuz we're all curious". heck i saw a price of USD $50 for less than 13 lbs of the stuff, are they nuts? you have to feed tons for big dogs, it wouldn't last very long and you'd need a bulldozer to clean out the back yard after a week :eek:

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 11:06 PM
Yeah, it's ok for the ingredients- told me all I needed to know.:D

technodoll
September 17th, 2006, 11:12 PM
yep. your yard is too small for a bulldozer too. :D

Prin
September 17th, 2006, 11:14 PM
Yeah, I don't shop enough to use a bag for each individual load.

Scott_B
September 18th, 2006, 08:55 AM
The lady I know who uses it says it costs her $90 taxes in for a 16lb box. That box feeds 3 dogs (all around the 50-60lb range) for a month. the feeding guidelines are very high she claims. The site says a 5lb bag has 26 cups in it. So you cant really go by the dry weight for feeding.

vfrohloff
September 18th, 2006, 09:14 AM
Why would SG do that? I don't feed SG but I had a chat with the owner of the pet food store in my town. He's been informed of the change but says the price will stay the same. Seems the company is charging him the same amount of money for a lesser quality food. He wasn't too impressed and may stop carrying it altogether. Apparently he has a lot of trouble getting it in the first place, says SG often takes several weeks to ship him his orders.

For anyone who's interested, I feed Holistic Blend (not to be confused with Holistique Blendz by SG). My Benny is extremely sensitive to food in general, and to anything with chicken in particular. He does really well on the Holistic Blend Lamb and Rice formula, here are the ingredients:

Lamb, whole ground millet, ground brown rice, whole ground barley, salmon, nutritional yeast, amaranth, flax seed, canola oil, alfalfa, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, L-lysine, cranberries, yucca schidigera extracts, garlic powder, cinnamon powder, rosemary extracts, ferrous sulphate, zinc oxide, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, manganous oxide, zinc proteinate, niacin, vitamin A acetate, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, manganese proteinate, thiamin mononitrate, colbalt sulphate, biotin, riboflavin, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, copper proteinates, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin K1 supplement, folic acid.

It's made with free-range lamb meat. A little grainy, but Benny does so well on it I don't mind so much about the grain. His teeth and breath are much better since I've put him on it, and his coat is nice and shiny. Poops are good too. :D He's 64 pounds and I give him 2 1/2 cups a day to maintain his weight. Costs me $54.99 for a 35 lb bag which is pretty good IMO.

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 10:01 AM
Still no reply from SG.:rolleyes:

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 11:47 AM
thedogfoodproject.com lists the new ingredients for SG foods, now, so I guess it's happened already.
Where? When I look, they're still the old ones...:confused:

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 11:59 AM
Ok, so after talking to my dog food store and them not being aware at all, I decided to call SG directly. What a scam!

This is how my conversation went:

"Are you changing the just a wee bit and WK formulas?"
"Umm... No. I mean, we're adding salmon, but that's about it."
"Really?"
"Well, it's not really salmon, I guess, it's salmon oil. But that's it."
"Oh, so you're not adding tomato pomace?"
"Oh.. Well... yes, it's an added fiber source. But we removed some grains, like amarath."
"Umm.. But didn't oats move up on the list?"
"Well.. yeah, I guess so. Some ingredients have been moved around and other ingredients have been added to make it better, like we removed the garlic and we're finally taking it off the bag, but it's not enough to call it a "complete formula change."
:confused: :confused:

So that's that for me.

Skryker
September 18th, 2006, 12:01 PM
Ah, it's in the new "Grain-free" section-only Barking At The Moon is listed there:

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grain_free

technodoll
September 18th, 2006, 12:03 PM
prin, this sounds like a nasty divorce case between you and SG :(

i'm so sorry this crap had to happen. you were their strongest advocate & cheerleader for so long, look how many clients they gained because of you, and now this BS sneakyness... it's like a kick in the seat of the pants. grrrrr. :mad:

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 12:05 PM
Yeah, fishy fishy fishy. My bf was listening and when I hung up, he said "She just wanted to know how much you already knew before answering." :rolleyes:

Skryker
September 18th, 2006, 12:08 PM
Huh. That smacks of CSR's being told not to voluteer any info. Sneaky. "Not enough to call it a formula change". Riiiiiggghhhttttt. :rolleyes:

technodoll
September 18th, 2006, 12:09 PM
yep, your man hit the nail on the head. If there's nothing wrong with their ingredients change, why the fear of owning up to it and advertising a full disclosure? :confused:

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Exactly- and why go straight for the "salmon"? Because that reassures me?:rolleyes: I won't look at the rest because they're "adding salmon".

meb999
September 18th, 2006, 12:13 PM
Yeah, fishy fishy fishy.

It's even lower than fishy. It's fishy oil! :D

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 12:14 PM
lol lol good one.:D

mafiaprincess
September 18th, 2006, 04:36 PM
That phone call is pretty whacked. Wow. I was teed before. Now I just feel dirty that I bought a 33 pound bag of it even in the old formula. Damn.

technodoll
September 18th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Now I just feel dirty that I bought a 33 pound bag of it even in the old formula. Damn

LOL! somebody should put together a tally of all these comments and mail it to SG headquarters :evil:

rainbow
September 18th, 2006, 06:56 PM
I wonder if they will lose much business overall? I'm going to spread the word as much as I can.

Prin
September 18th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Me too. It's just unacceptable to cheapen ingredients and maintain the same price.

x.l.r.8
September 19th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Is this the case for the wolf cub as well, I had jsut got my short list kinda nailed down and now it seems it just got shorter. I was going to use wolf cub for the next 4 months and switch around between DVP, Merricks, Canidae, Innova, California Natural, Natures Variety and Wellness (as they are all available locally). My Only addition was WK but I don't like the idea that they have already changed the formula once without ANY warning. Canadie seems to be the best Value For Money, so I'm guessing that I will be swaying towards that one. So for we tried Nutro Ultra and now were wofking through a bag of Nutram, not great but not the worst, Wolf Cub is on order to try and I have a a sample bag but it's the old formula as will probably be the first few bags and then it will just be another dog fod, We have no allergies that I'm aware of but the thought of him depositing small stools simply thrills me.

SuperWanda
September 19th, 2006, 10:18 PM
I think all of the formulas have changed.

Don't ask me where I saw this - some website I was reading said that when manufacturers change their formulas they have a certain amout of time before they have to change the bags so could we possibly be feeding the new formula in the old bags???

Wolfcub:

Bison, Salmon Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Millet, Brown Rice, Rice Bran, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamins and Minerals.

rainbow
September 19th, 2006, 10:47 PM
Don't ask me where I saw this - some website I was reading said that when manufacturers change their formulas they have a certain amout of time before they have to change the bags so could we possibly be feeding the new formula in the old bags???


Yes, you could. By law, the companies have six months to use up their supply of old bags. :sad:

coppperbelle
September 20th, 2006, 06:45 AM
Is this the case for the wolf cub as well, I had jsut got my short list kinda nailed down and now it seems it just got shorter. I was going to use wolf cub for the next 4 months and switch around between DVP, Merricks, Canidae, Innova, California Natural, Natures Variety and Wellness (as they are all available locally). My Only addition was WK but I don't like the idea that they have already changed the formula once without ANY warning. Canadie seems to be the best Value For Money, so I'm guessing that I will be swaying towards that one. So for we tried Nutro Ultra and now were wofking through a bag of Nutram, not great but not the worst, Wolf Cub is on order to try and I have a a sample bag but it's the old formula as will probably be the first few bags and then it will just be another dog fod, We have no allergies that I'm aware of but the thought of him depositing small stools simply thrills me.

Yes I believe the WK is also being changed according to the other post. I would be very careful changing kibbles as you are planning to do. You may turn your dog into a picky eater.

x.l.r.8
September 20th, 2006, 09:20 AM
I was thinking that but then come across this, the passage holds true for my cats who used to be fussy eaters when they were on the same food for 4 years, now we change regularly and they eat what ever we put down, my doggy waste disposal will soon let me know what he won't eat and if it ends up he only likes one particular brand then so be it. I mean any one of them is better than the Iams he was on. Also if you feed the same stuff all the time how would you know if there picky eaters? :D
Unfortunatly or fortunatly we have had 17 years to know what the cats like and what we avoided, however moving to Canada shut down our usual brands and we had access to and we had to start looking again. We were going to go to holistic blend and to bring the post back on topic:sorry: I found this site, found that there were a good few brands available and although I was leaning towards Canidae it was an opinion that SG was tollerated a bit more by most dogs, so I thought I'd give that ago, now I'm realising the difference between one good quality food and another is about what the dog likes, not what I want. So I thought I'd have a bit of a rotation and let Riley tell me what he wants. I want to be the one who decides what foods are being offerend rather then a company deciding to cheapen it's line up because is has a grear reputation, it seems SG is 'just another good dog food company' now rather than a great one. There are plenty more to choose from (for us non allergy sufferers, sorry Prin, I truely feel sorry for you having to scour every ingredient label, I'm alergic to any nut oil and I used to spend hours doing my shopping reading every additive there is) so I can just change my preferance brand as easily and they can change there ingredients. Sorry to rant on but it's all your fault for making me read more into what were feeding our loved ones, my wife started to moan about my obsession and so i fed her spam fritters and egg noodles for the past 3 days, she gets it now. :D :D :evil:
Ok i'm done, thanks for listening.
Adie

"Change your dog’s food

Once you have selected a good quality dog food, that’s all you need to feed, right? Not really. You should vary your dog’s food periodically. There are many good reasons for this:

_ Dogs (actually all mammals) are designed to consume a range of different foods, and to obtain differing vitamins and minerals from each. They are not designed to eat “only chicken” or “only lamb” or any other food item for eternity. Changing foods, importantly the contents of those foods, every so often helps to give them the variety their bodies were designed to thrive on.

_ There is no one dog food in existence that “has it all”. And remember, the feeding trials that foods go through only last for six months (and not all foods are even trialled). Changing foods periodically helps to ensure that no dietary deficiencies or excesses build up over time.

_ Variety is the spice of life. Who wants to eat the same food day in and day out? Could you do it? For months or years? Feeding your dog something different helps to ensure that he does not become bored and frustrated with his food. This will not make your dog picky - we are talking about periodic changes here, not serving up something different or adding goodies to tempt him every time he doesn’t like his dinner.
And most importantly of all:

_ It helps to avoid the development of allergies. In a few extreme cases, you (or your dog) may be instantly and violently allergic to something. But that is a few extreme cases only - the vast majority of allergies are things that build up over time and with constant exposure. The surest way to develop an allergy to chicken, for example, is to consume it daily for an extended period. It is no coincidence that the most common allergens are things that have commonly been used in dog foods for many years. The (modern) advice given by nutritionists is that feeding a wide variety of different foods, preferably from a young age, can help to avoid the development of allergies in the first place (that's the advice given for humans too).

Common signs of allergies are itchy skin, red itchy paws, chewing paws, yeast infections, ear infections, and skin infections that may respond to antibiotics but reappear as soon as the antibiotics are discontinued.

That all adds up to changing the food you feed every once in a while. That means changing to a food with different main ingredients. There is very little benefit to switching from one chicken/rice food to another, for example. If you have been feeding a food with chicken as the main ingredient, then it is far better that the next food is based on lamb, or turkey, or fish, or beef, etc and that the other main ingredients are also varied.

Do I have to change brands every time I change food?

No, not necessarily. Look at the ingredients in the different formulas made by your brand. What is different? If it is only the main meat ingredient, then you should change to a different brand when you change foods. If many of the ingredients, including the main meat, are different then there is no need to change brands if you don’t want to. The point here is to ensure that your dog gets a good variety of different food items in his diet. Not brand loyalty.

How often should I rotate foods?

Minimally, at least every three months. But you can change more frequently than that. If your dog does not suffer from digestive upsets when his food is changed, then you might even consider changing foods every time the bag runs out.

How many different foods do I need? Can I use a food again?

At least three or four different foods (different main meat source and different main ingredients). More is better. You can certainly reuse a good food though, especially if your dog does particularly well on it. You could choose, for example, to feed food A for one bag then change to food B – go back to food A, then to food C and so on. This satisfies the criteria of avoiding constant or prolonged exposure to a particular set of ingredients.

What about just mixing foods together?

Mixing foods together can certainly help to ensure nutritional adequacy for the long term. But it does nothing to provide your dog with variety (something different to eat!) and it does not satisfy the criteria of avoiding constant or prolonged exposure to a particular set of ingredients. So this practice will do nothing to help avoid the development of food allergies – it just means that there are a greater number of things the dog is being exposed to on a constant basis. It also means that there is a wider range of possible culprits should a food allergy develop. You can mix foods if you choose, but you should vary the foods that you mix together, just as if you were feeding a single food.

Do I need to change the food gradually?

It is usually wise to effect a change gradually. Not every dog is sensitive to food changes, and many will handle cold turkey changes without issue. But many won’t, and the upset tummies and loose stools that can come with changing foods too fast are such an annoyance (for the dog too!) that it makes sense just to change gradually, unless you know for certain that your dog has the sort of cast iron stomach that won’t be upset by a sudden change.

The simplest way to change foods is to blend the old and new foods together for a week or so. Start with a mix that is 25% new food and 75% old. Feed that for two or three days, and if there are no upset tummies or loose stools, increase the blend to a 50/50 mix. Again, feed that for a couple of days, then increase to a 75/25 blend, and finally to 100% new food. If at any stage there is a tummy upset or the dog’s stools become loose, then hold off on increasing the amount of new food in the blend until that problem resolves. If there are no problems at all, it will take a week to ten days to accomplish the switch.

Won’t changing foods make my dog picky?

No, it won’t. It’s more likely to have the opposite effect, and keep the dog interested in his food. How long could you stay interested in eating exactly the same thing? A food change once a month, or every two or three months is not going to give you a picky dog. What creates pickiness is serving up something different any time the dog shows no interest in his meal. Just like little kids, a dog will learn very quickly that refusing to eat a meal results in Mom producing something better – if you constantly produce something better. Instead, you should give the dog his food at set meal times, and pick it up if it is not eaten within about 20 minutes. Don’t offer anything else (i.e. don’t fill him up on treats) until the next meal time.

Are there any other benefits to changing foods?

YES! Changing foods every so often means that you keep yourself aware of what is available. Dog food is not a static science and it is very pleasing to be able to note that constant improvements are being made. Foods that may have once been amongst the best available are constantly being surpassed (this is a good thing! Dog food has not historically been a high quality product).

We’ve all met people who swear “brand x” is the best you can get – and have been feeding it for the last 15 years, completely unaware of advances that have been made. Well, that may have been true 15 years ago, but now “brand x” may be one of the lower quality foods available (though it’s unlikely to be reflected in cost).

We fully expect the foods we currently recommend here to be surpassed or improved in the coming years. This is good news for you and your dog. Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that what is the best available now will always be the best you can get. It won’t be (or at least, we sincerely hope that it won’t be)."

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 02:27 PM
ok, IMO the WK in the bags we're buying now has already changed (even if the bags haven't). Boo has diarrhea and Jemma has gas. The food also went from smelling slightly fishy to smelling like barn.

I really need a new food asap.:frustrated:

technodoll
September 20th, 2006, 02:48 PM
IMO the WK in the bags we're buying now has already changed (even if the bags haven't). Boo has diarrhea and Jemma has gas.

oh please say it ain't so!! WTF, how can this even be legal?? what if your dog had a fatal allergy to an ingredient, and they started adding it without changing the ingredients list - could you sue the company?? :mad:

how about you return the bag and get your money back! even if it's half empty... hopefully you're onto another food soon :fingerscr

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 03:03 PM
Woofers doesn't know the formula is changing (they didn't really believe me). :rolleyes: So I doubt they would take it back for that..

SuperWanda
September 20th, 2006, 04:14 PM
I gotta tell ya, I only bought one small and then one large bag and I never really noticed that it had any type of smell similar to fish - I really thought it smelled - like you said Prin - like barn!

But, because it was highly recommended, I thought I would see how my dogs did with it. I guess I probably had the new formula all along and never experienced the old????

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Yeah, the barn is new... It didn't smell like that before.:shrug:

erykah1310
September 20th, 2006, 05:59 PM
My bag smells like FISH, the dogs breath smells like fish, EVERYTHING smells like fish :yuck: I guess i still have the "old" stuff

erykah1310
September 20th, 2006, 06:03 PM
I got an email back from SG, this is what i was told.

Thank you for your email. The natural flavor in the WolfKing is spray dried liver – bison liver in this case. We did not add any grains to the formula. The new formula actually contains one less grain as we removed amaranth from the formula.

Tomato pomace is an excellent source of the super antioxidant lycopene. Here is some information on lycopene:

http://www.lycopene.org/

Tomato pomace is also as excellent source of soluble fiber.

Based upon recent research, we have also added other healthy ingredients such as salmon oil and taurine.

Best regards,

Solid Gold

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 06:11 PM
I got the same thing...
So I emailed back...

Me: Yes, but haven't you also added more oats?

SG: The millet and barley were reduced and the oatmeal was increased, so the overall amount of grain in the food is the same, even though the amount of the individual grains has changed.


Me: So if the grains decreased, why the need for a stool hardener (i.e. slow fiber) like tomato pomace?

SG: We have to keep the same amount of fiber in the food so that it continues to meet AAFCO specifications. In this case, however, the tomato pomace was added as a source of anitoxidents and it has the benefit of being a source of fiber as well so we were able to address two separate issues with one ingredient.

Me: But the quantity of grains didn't change, so why is there a need for more fiber?

Waiting...

Meanwhile, Jemma's gas is getting worse...:rolleyes:

mafiaprincess
September 20th, 2006, 06:21 PM
Prin and I talked about this this morning. My dog smells like barn. Her fur, her breath, everything. Yesterday she forgo-ed pooping for 20 hours.. Was meal 2 and 3 of the new crap.. When she did poop. It was liek a bullet with severe straining and crying.. and it smelled like rotten sewage......

Today, we pooped liquid. Which I tried to clean up and it smelled like sewage.

I'm with Prin. Don't buy a new SG bag of anything it looks like it is 'new' and I'm not happy.

My store knew nothing on the switch so they won't be taking back 32 pounds of kibble either.

Now? Cider just puked white stuff all over herself, and I don't really think she's ill.

erykah1310
September 20th, 2006, 06:25 PM
They really just dont care about the dogs who depended on their food.
Really upsets me.

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Me too. Just disgusting and unethical.

Boo has had the splats, but no puking yet. If he does and needs another belly injection, I'm sending them the bill.:mad:

MERI
September 20th, 2006, 07:30 PM
about week ago I bought a new bag of WK and I noticed Bilbo vomited in the morning as if he was on his old crapy food:yuck:
It's do frustrating! What do we buy now?

I will follow this topic!
Prin - all my hopes with you:) - you will find out what to do:fingerscr
Please, let us know:dog:

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 07:33 PM
check out this thread:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=30712

I'm trying to figure out something else for Boo... I don't want them eating it even tomorrow. NO MORE!

Skryker
September 20th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Ugh, just when it seemed it couldn't get much worse! Poor puppies that were fed the new stuff all unawares. :sad:

:grouphug: for all the dogs and owners dealing with sudden food change.

:mad: Big hisses for SG. :mad:

mafiaprincess
September 20th, 2006, 08:18 PM
If you haven't emailed SG. I suggest you do. Tell them what you feel. Seriously.

I just did and I feel better.. Even with a dog that smells like barn, and radioactive vomit going on.

It's harsh, but I don't care if I get a reply back. They'd have to read it to know what it said anyhow.

I am on a pet forum and am one of the people who discovered solid gold is making changes and is unhappy. I've seen the replies you are giving people, and would like you to know, that we aren't ignorant. We are fairly educated pet consumers. You wouldn't know it with the replies I've read thus far.

I hope your company is satisfied with the profits they hope to make in using lower quality ingredients, and also hope that it makes up for the number of people who will cease to buy it. Many of us recommended it, and will not from this point onward.

I also would like to thank you for the radioactive puke my dog has along with the barn smelling poop. I am fairly certain at this point that you already are using lower quality ingredients in wolf king, because when I started what was goign to be my last bag of it, my dog started acting like it was a food switch. Nice.

You can make claims as much as you would like as to why the addition of tomato pomace. But there is no good reply. If it was simply for lycopene, you would use actual tomatoes. Not the pesticide laden skins. Consumers aren't nearly as stupid as we are being treated.

I feel dirty that I went and bought 33 pounds of what now seems to be an utter garbage food. And my pet store thus far is unaware you are making changes and won't take it back yet my dog is sick from it. People whose dogs have intolerances must be really amused at this point. What a beyond despicable thing to pull.

One super unhappy consumer

Skryker
September 20th, 2006, 08:24 PM
I don't actually feed Wolf King. :o It was the tops on my list, but hubby had a fit over the price. Sooooo, we've been on Performatrin Ultra. At least I don't have to worry over the switch.

I will, however, be emailing SG to let them know that I WON"T be switching dog or cat food to their products ever due to this underhanded switch.

(Gee, could I have used the word "switch" a few more times?):evil:

mafiaprincess
September 20th, 2006, 08:47 PM
lol. Even that is helpful though. I feel that the tactics they are using to see how much we know rather than come out with it, along with the pretending they are high and mighty and we know so little.. between it all I feel dirty. Even if you don't feed it, telling them you know what they are doing and you understand dog food ingredients is a great step to telling SG where they can put their kibble, lol.

Prin
September 20th, 2006, 09:09 PM
I still don't know what I'm gonna feed, but whatever it is, it'll have to start tomorrow. Considering TO's customer service is less than par, even if they've got the food I'm looking for, that's a real turn off for me. If you can't back up what you are selling properly, you shouldn't be selling anything.:rolleyes:

So far, I'm still unsure, but it's either California natural herring with evo red meat, or evo canned 100% meat added to it, or Canidae Lamb and rice with the same supplementation. :shrug:

technodoll
September 20th, 2006, 10:47 PM
prin have you found a place to buy all of this, and how much is it going to cost you per month? :eek: goodness i hope all the gas & liquid stinkies stop... what a nightmare for everyone involved. :( and i'm so pissed off at pet food companies to begin with, and now stuff like this... :yell:

mafiaprincess
September 21st, 2006, 06:49 AM
If I could dump my 32 pounds of WK, and could find somewhere to sell premade patties.. I'd be going that way right now. But no one local seems to sell them.
I looked at Freeze dried kibble the other day, but I didn't know it was going to come to this.

Prin
September 21st, 2006, 09:02 AM
Techno, unemployed or not, my doggies need what they need. :shrug:

Prin
September 21st, 2006, 09:22 AM
A store I just called said they've got a couple of bags of WK returned by customers after bad effects on the doggies.:sad:

RaYne
September 21st, 2006, 09:28 AM
Ditto on that Prin. We spend $154 a month just on Bubba's food alone and I'm not working right at the moment. Lola is being put on Canidae (All life Stages) hopefully starting today.

When it comes to our babies you do what you have to do. ;)

SG should be required to notify everyone ahead of time of an ingredient change. Putting the 'new' formula in the 'old' bags was just a rotten thing to do. Geez they couldn't even attach a sticker or something saying "NEW formula" ??!!Even Eagle notified ahead of time that their formulas were being 'tweaked' To my knowledge they are NOT reusing the old bags. I was told new bag=new formula.

What a crock.. I hope they go out of business. LOL

technodoll
September 21st, 2006, 11:38 AM
A store I just called said they've got a couple of bags of WK returned by customers after bad effects on the doggies

i would urge anyone with a new bag of WK, opened or not, to return it to the store for a full refund. the store then turns to the manufacturer for a refund due to "defective product" - if nobody does it, SG will get away with it laughing all the way to the bank :mad:

i have OFTEN returned opened bags of food (Eagle Pack x 2, Holistic Blend, and another that I forget) because of liquid poops and gas. I just say "this food makes my dog sick and i'm not paying for it" :shrug:

then use the refund to buy another brand of food at the same store, it builds customer loyalty and everybody wins (except SG!) :highfive:

mafiaprincess
September 21st, 2006, 01:26 PM
If they'll take it back.. I'll be buying maybe a wellness small bag and a small bag of NV freeze dried. So it's not like I'm not buying from them. But I just called and no one is picking up the phone..

I don't want to move that rubbermaid container with near 33 pounds of kibble in it to my car to have them tell me they won't take it back..

goldengal
September 21st, 2006, 02:53 PM
Well, after logging in and my userid and password being accepted and typing my ENTIRE thread, I was told I was not logged in, and then that my password was NOT accepted so I will begin once again although I am sure I will not remember half of what I said.

As a new user to Solid Gold, I am very interested in this discussion. I live in a household with 3 dogs - a Bernese Mountain Dog, a Leonberger and my Golden. The first two belong to my doughter and SIL. The Berner and Leonberger have been on Wolf King now for months. Prior to Wolf King, the Leonberger had a major itching and scratching problem. Now, no itching and no scratching.

My Golden has been eating Eagle Pack Anchovy, Salmon and Sardines for over a year, and I find it to be a great food, and she does well. Still, since we often feed one anothers dogs (I do most of the feeding and especially now that my SIL is hospitalized after a serious motorcycle accident), it made sense to switch Montana to Wolf King too. I must say here the one thing I really liked about Eagle Pack is all the fish was 'meal' whereas with Wolf King the bison was just 'bison' so the moisture was not removed and I wondered if it should, in fact, be the first ingredient.

Just two weeks ago I purchased 6 bags of Wolf King (for all 3 dogs), and it is the old formula. For Montana (my golden) it will take a while to tell if even the old formula makes a difference to her system as I do a VERY gradual change - like a couple of months.

I understand oatmeal has moved up in the chain of grains, and is that a bad thing? Us humans eat oatmeal to reduce cholesterol and thus heart problems. And as far as tomato pomace providing lycopene; there again humans eat tomatoes to prevent cancer as tomatoes ARE an antioxidant. I guess what I am asking, and believe me, I am new to this product, are these changes as bad as you are thinking? Many of the premium brands now include tomato pomace. Will they eventually all go that way?

As a brand new S.G. user, the first thing I noticed is that the packaging is much more expensive than any I have used before.

I sincerely hope this goes thru this time as I cannot type it again, and I am sure my first post was much better.

Scott_B
September 21st, 2006, 02:58 PM
What you have to remember is that Dogs are not humans and vice versa. Things that we get nutrients from, dogs don't. Where would a wild dog ever get Tomato pomace? We cant digest bones, yet dogs can. Too much fat for us is bad, however dogs get Energy from that fat.

x.l.r.8
September 21st, 2006, 03:01 PM
I'm sure Rileys been sneaking down at night to read this forum, I gat sample packs of EVERYTHING on my short list, were on Nutram at the moment, foods always down and hew goes to it twice a day and finishes about 2 cups, he's not fussy and if he smells human food he gets excited and eat every crumb left on the carpet left over from training. So he changed from the 'iams' (said in a small embarassed voice) to nutram cold and loved it, he's even eaten a bowl of Natural Choice, stools hve never been great but managable. So I put down the WolfCub for breakfast, I carry on doing what I want, I notice later after playing and training it's still there, we go for a nice walk and usually what ever's left get eaten it polished on our return, nothing, sniffs it and walks away. So in the evening he was in the kitchen when I was prepairing dinner (something he knows is a no-no) so i look over, the carpet is clean and the WolfCub is untouched, I put a bowl of Nutram down (he's only been on it for 4 days) and he eat the whole bowl and was looking for more. So if SG was not off my list yet, it's off his. I brought the bag a canidae home today to start making the switch and he was very curious about the new bag and followed everywhere the bag went. I hope this is a good sign as I had visions of him turning down the top 5 on my list and being left with stuff I'm trying to get away with. The owner of the food store didn't know about the change but will be looking into it further aswell, if they have it will be available at OTHER stores, not hers anymore, her English Mastiff (now I like a big dog but she was huge) went throught the same thing with Wellness when they switched there formula around and she's an EVO dog now with the occasional herring and potatoe (never looked at the bag but it was Black and Green!) she said for a mixed breed with unknown peramiters of when he will grow and when he will stop, and looking at his weight now canadie was top of her recomendations, once he has finished growing then if i wanted to change to something different then would be a better time as we will know what he likes. So for the moment he's sorted, i do no longer need to think and plan (althought if I had a huge freezer I would think about RAW, but not at the moment). So yay to Riley for boycotting SG all by himself.

Skryker
September 21st, 2006, 03:05 PM
And there's nothing wrong with tomatos in dog food-they're great, in fact. But tomato pomace is what's left of a tomato after it's been processed for human food-it's a by-product; what's left of the skin and core and seeds after all the good stuff has been squeezed out. And it's used as a stool hardener-because oatmeal goes through fast and they've increased the oatmeal, they had to balance it with something to slow the works down-the tomato pomace.

(How'd I do, food gurus? Have I been paying full attention, or did I miss a fact or two? ;) )

technodoll
September 21st, 2006, 03:13 PM
ya did great, stryker! :highfive:

doggy lover
September 21st, 2006, 03:50 PM
Wow am I coming into this one late, so let me get this, there are so many replies to read.SG is changing the WF food without warning, hopefully not going to affect to many doggy tummies with out warning? I know my last dog would end up with megga poops if anything changed in his diet, touchie tummie for sure.
Now Tucker is on the H&F from SG is there any change in that? Mind you Tucker has a cast iron gut, but hell for the price we are paying it better not end up a crappy food either. I want the best I can afford for my little boy.

technodoll
September 21st, 2006, 03:58 PM
H&F is a super-grainey food... not worth the $$ IMO - sorry :o

BernerLver
September 21st, 2006, 04:42 PM
I belive I have purchased a bag with the "new" formula :frustrated: Luckily I just purchased the tiny bag on Saturday as they were out of the big ones but were getting more this week.

Dart's gas could have cleared a room last night! Also, he has been straining more to go than he ever has.

I'm not sure what to do at this point since they need sonething to eat.

Incidentially, while at the store on Saturday when I inquired with the owner about a large bag of WK, she said they were out but that someone had just returned a large bag.

At the time I thought "why it's such a great food?". Now I wonder if they weren't just in the know before I was.

goldengal
September 21st, 2006, 05:09 PM
Granted we are not the same as dogs, but they die of cancer and heart disease exactly the same as we do so who says oatmeal and lycopene do not help their systems? Why do we give our dogs glucosamine and chondroitin the same as humans take if it does not help (know it has not been PROVEN to help either?.

Scott_B
September 21st, 2006, 05:41 PM
But studies have shown that giving dogs glucosamine and chondroitin does improve health. We both need protien, and some fat, but we break them down differently. Dogs dont need grains. Why is most good kibbles soy free, yet for humans, soy is a great option? No one is saying your dog will die from these things. at least not in the short term, but why when there is healthier options would you continue to feed it?

Would you feed hot dogs to children twice a day for the rest of their lives? of course not, it has by-products in them. so why feed a kibble that contains by-products?

goldengal
September 21st, 2006, 06:22 PM
Perhaps pet food manufacturers are endeavouring to feed our furry friends the same as we eat because, on another board, an individual was enquiring about Innova, which I am not familiar with. When I checked their site, they state what they feed from each of the '5 food groups' which us humans adhere to - or try to. Maybe that is why we do not understand some of the foods they are adding and why? Just a suggestion .....

And I'm sorry but which kibble are we feeding that contains by products? Are you referring to the premium foods?

meb999
September 21st, 2006, 06:40 PM
we're ominivores. We need grains and we need the five food groups.

Dogs are carnivores. The only grains they are supposed to eat are the ones that are partially digested in their prey's stomach.

Lycopene is good, but the problem is that SG didn't include tomatoes in their food, they included tomato pomace. It's a completely different ball game. If i told you I was making peach cobbler, then served you a bowl full of peach pits, I don't think you would consider that peaches!

we're not saying that tomato pomace should be avoided like Menadione, but it sucks to pay such a high price for low quality ingredients. For the price they charge, they should have included whole tomatoes in their recipe if they wanted the advantages of lycopene.

Maybe that is why we do not understand some of the foods they are adding and why? Just a suggestion .....

i doubt you could say that members like Prin or Techno don't understand why the dog food companies are adding certain ingredients....read over their posts....

x.l.r.8
September 21st, 2006, 07:35 PM
My pet food supplier has finally got in touch and been told the 'animal flavour' is lamb not chicken flavour, but why did they not put that on the list, I for one feel that if they wanted you to know what the flavour was then they would have said, they list everything else. The owner of SG is apparantly off on vacation (how convenient) so will not be able to be contacted for a while (probably untill the fuss dies down).

mafiaprincess
September 21st, 2006, 08:02 PM
I returned near 33 pounds of WK tonight to global. We had a good chat on the phone about it, and another in person. A bag of wee bit was returned earlier this week. Liquid poop from dogs that haven't had an issue before..

Now she's taking this mighty seriously, and SG does have to eat the cost. So they can have fun with that. Hope more people return it.

So we have 5ish pounds of NV freeze dried, 6.6 EVO RM, and 5ish of DVP natural one..
Currently I'm having to cook ground beef and rice till she's okay. Was another 20ish hours of no poop.. and it finally came out like a bullet..

'animal flavour' is lamb not chicken flavour
Actually.. it's spray dried bison liver.. not chicken or lamb.. Erykah emailed SG.
Though you are right, they wrote it in a sketch way, if they were including good stuff they'd write it out.

If I wanted to pay for potentially pesticide covered tomato skins, I'd buy crappy food. If they were using actual tomatoes, not a by product of tomato juice processing, SG would actually include 'tomatoes'. Products, pomaces etc is a way to write crappier ingredients in a way a lot of people wouldn't understand. Sadly, for SG too many of us do understand.

Maybe that is why we do not understand some of the foods they are adding and why?
I don't think so. Far too many of us are over educated on dog food. It comes down to being too aware that they are downgrading ingredients, and anytime anyone calls, emails or anything else they get a walk in a circle, because they don't actually want to come out and say what they've done. Mighty sketch, no?

Berner, take it back. Maybe cook something for a day or two and try to switch in some kibble of something else?

coppperbelle
September 21st, 2006, 08:02 PM
I think I will e-mail them again. I still haven't received a response. Call her back from vacation. My husband owns his own company. If there were a crisis you can be sure he would be called back from vacation.

mafiaprincess
September 21st, 2006, 08:09 PM
Which reminds me. Turns out SG *was* co owned.. There was a big stink, owner of global couldn't remember when.. and the other person left her and created 'holistic blend' which is Canadian if anyone cares.. and in the time she's made it has never screwed with the ingredients.. and it's a pretty good seller.. didn't see anything sketch in it, but I didn't look at the bags for long.
Thought that was an interesting thing to find out..

technodoll
September 21st, 2006, 08:10 PM
this issue has certainly made "quiet ones" rise and roar! good for us :highfive: we're on top of the ball here and shame on any pet-food company for thinking otherwise. i just feel bad for all those other folks who rely on a company's honesty for feeding their pets :mad:

Prin
September 21st, 2006, 09:43 PM
Pretty much everything has been said already...:o

Good post Skryker! The only thing you forgot was the pesticides on the tomato skins (which Mafiaprincess mentioned already too...). And like MEB said, when you pay for top quality ingredients, you want the WHOLE tomato (which Evo RM does, btw :D). I don't want some "Motts Clamato" or "V8" by-product in my dogs' food if I don't have to.

And if SG doesn't consider it a "complete formula change", why are all our dogs getting sick from it?!! If it was just a tweak here and there, they'd be fine! :frustrated:

And I'm sorry but which kibble are we feeding that contains by products?Tomato pomace is a by-product of human food processes. They don't take a tomato, squirt out all the nutrient rich juice down the drain to make tomato pomace. :shrug: V8 is a "healthy" drink (although I'm not sure it is- haven't researched it :p), and that is because it's got all the nutrients that are taken out before this "ingredient" goes into dog food.

SG is very wrong though- it's not like Iams or Alpo where the owner just gives it and doesn't research it. To find SG foods and to BUY them at $70/bag, you have to be somewhat aware. And unfortunately for them, we are aware and we also don't ignore the effects it has on our doggies.



Doggy lover, I have to say, I know somebody who feeds Hundnflocken and her owner thinks it's doing great things for her, but it isn't... It's not a great food and my mutts are blacker, shinier and softer than her pure black lab. :shrug:

Skryker
September 22nd, 2006, 05:44 AM
:o I remembered the pesticides later, while I was cooking dinner. (We had spaghetti and meatballs. :crazy: )

I sure hope V8 is healthy-my husband drinks it every morning, and the dogs love to have a slurp, too. :yuck: Personally, I can't stand the stuff. :sorry: :offtopic:

SuperWanda
September 22nd, 2006, 09:36 AM
Deep thoughts by SuperWanda:

I have no idea what I am going to end up feeding my dogs. I have no opinion on what ingredients are bad or what ingredients are good.

It seems to me that there is a lot of controversy out there as to whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores. Even though the dog belongs to the Order Carnivora does that mean he is a carnivore? There are other mammals in this group that are not - and I’m sure you could get into a heated discussion with animal nutritionists and zoologists about this one.

Yes, ancestors of our furry doggie friends are meat eaters but they can also get nutrients and proteins from plants – that is why people can feed a dog a vegetarian diet and the dog will survive. Some say that dogs should be feed a diet mimicking their natural diet which some say is meat, some say a combination of plants and meat, some say raw, some say cooked. What’s a person to do?

Some say an evolutionary diet is better because a dog would have never cooked up grains in the wild – I believe I said this myself in one of my posts. However our doggie ancestors also did not have a cook top and they didn’t know how to use it. I don’t think a wolf would have eaten hard, uncooked grains either. In my opinion, I think their diet would have been mainly meat based although I believe they would have eaten some plant material. I think they would have also eaten it raw – because like I said before they did not have a cook top and they didn’t know how to use it so what does it matter.

Well, I also know that most animals in the wild are not the healthiest creatures and animals in captivity live a lot longer. They get a mix of raw and cooked with added vitamins and minerals. They get examined by vets and cared for in a way that no wild animal would ever benefit.

So, based on this information I would like to feed my dogs a well balanced and nutritious diet. Well, what is that? I’m not sure I even know the answer!!!

There are also opinions on the value or nutrition of ingredients. Are things like tomato pomace bad? – I think that depends on the way you look at it. I have no idea whether it is bad or good. Sometimes I want to have the whole cranberry or the cranberry juice for different reasons. I know that if I ate just whole cranberries I would have to eat a heck of a lot of them to get the benefits of certain nutrients so that is why I may take a cranberry supplement. Is whole better? In some cases it might be, in some cases it may not be. It depends what you want from the food – or what nutrient you want or what fiber you want – whatever.

If companies put it in because of fiber is that ok, or not ok? Again, I don’t know the answer. I’m not going to eat a whole bag of prunes because I know I’ll be in the bathroom all day – I choose the foods I eat because I know what I need and what will be nutritious and balanced. Sometime I may eat too much of one thing or not enough of another. Well, dogs can’t really do this – we decide what to feed them.

I think when we look at all these holistic brands or natural brands and see all these herbal additives – who’s to know what kind of effect those may have? Plants contain some of the most toxic compounds in nature. They can also act as stool hardeners or stool softeners.

What about pesticides or toxins – again I don’t have the answer. I know that chemicals and pesticides are everywhere these days. I’m sure I have been exposed to a lot of them unknowingly. I do what I can do – wash my fruit and veggies – sometimes I may even buy organic however it is pretty expensive and sometimes hard to find. I assume that when we eat our concentrated tomato products that they have hopefully washed the tomatoes before I am consuming them. But, I can’t be sure of anything. Toxins in fish, pesticides in tomatoes, these things may be unavoidable but we eat them because of the omega 3’s or the concentrated lycopenes or because of the fiber.

This is why I am so darned confused about what to feed my dogs!!!

In the end I will probably feed what I think is nutritious and balanced and what they enjoy. I would like a lot of the protein to come from high, digestible meat sources. If some comes from grains I feel that this is ok because they are cooked – I see the value in certain nutrients and fiber but I would like it to be lower than the meat part. Added vitamins and minerals from various fruit and veggies or from herbal sources or nuts and seeds – depends on what it is. And essential oils too - hopefully a balance between the omega’s and some probiotics and digestive enzymes. This may come from cooked, raw or a combination.

I don’t think we should get caught up on just one ingredient – you may never find the perfect food that is free of pesticides or toxins. There will always be ongoing studies about nutrition and whether a particular food or compound is healthy or toxic - and it changes all the time. We just have to do the best we can do :love: and hope :pray: that we (pets and people) live a long, healthy and happy :) life!

x.l.r.8
September 22nd, 2006, 11:12 AM
I agree compleatly, however (there's always a however isn't there) you don't ring up ocean spray and ask for there left over cranberry skins to add you you food, so why do it for your pets, it's not actually that bad but when your paying for a premium product you don't expect it to be adding things like that when cheaper products are adding whole tomato's. Also the thinking behind adding them is a stool hardener to disguise the fact there moving up oats so it's a compnesation thing. If you cheapen the ingredients and change formula you TELL people, hell even Mc.D's did with there nuggets. If your paying for a product like SG your pretty well informed, The owner should know that so pulling a stunt like this is just a cheap trick. I have no alegence to any particular product and like you I'm on the fence as it's all new to me, I'm sure I'm going to do th best for my pet as will you. I jsut think it's great to be informed about that choice.

x.l.r.8
September 22nd, 2006, 11:12 AM
I agree compleatly, however (there's always a however isn't there) you don't ring up ocean spray and ask for there left over cranberry skins to add you you food, so why do it for your pets, it's not actually that bad but when your paying for a premium product you don't expect it to be adding things like that when cheaper products are adding whole tomato's. Also the thinking behind adding them is a stool hardener to disguise the fact there moving up oats so it's a compnesation thing. If you cheapen the ingredients and change formula you TELL people, hell even Mc.D's did with there nuggets. If your paying for a product like SG your pretty well informed, The owner should know that so pulling a stunt like this is just a cheap trick. I have no alegence to any particular product and like you I'm on the fence as it's all new to me, I'm sure I'm going to do th best for my pet as will you. I jsut think it's great to be informed about that choice.

SuperWanda
September 22nd, 2006, 11:56 AM
I'm not going to be paying for the solid gold either for a number of reasons but I just get thoroughly confused when there are so many different arguments about a particular ingredient. I'm just saying that sometimes things are removed or taken from foods to concentrate a particular nutrient because it may have a benefit to our health - more so than the whole food itself.

I wasn't defending the use of tomato pomace. Whether or not tomato pomace is used for a good reason in dog foods or a bad reason - high lycopene or slow fiber or filler - I don't really know??? because I can read a number of different things supporting each one.

That's why as a consumer it is very difficult. I just don't want to get stuck in a place where I can't choose anything at all because - this one has this one bad ingredient or this one has another bad ingredient - I would probably never get anything. I would rather try to look at things in a broader sense.

rainbow
September 22nd, 2006, 12:17 PM
Which reminds me. Turns out SG *was* co owned.. There was a big stink, owner of global couldn't remember when.. and the other person left her and created 'holistic blend' which is Canadian if anyone cares.. and in the time she's made it has never screwed with the ingredients.. and it's a pretty good seller.. didn't see anything sketch in it, but I didn't look at the bags for long.
Thought that was an interesting thing to find out..


I had heard this too but couldn't remember from where and was unable to find a source that I could post here. :o

mafiaprincess
September 22nd, 2006, 05:40 PM
I couldn't remember who'd brought up that it had been co owned..
But I thought it was interesting that the store owner mentioned it during my visit.

rainbow
September 23rd, 2006, 01:16 PM
I couldn't remember who'd brought up that it had been co owned. But I thought it was interesting that the store owner mentioned it during my visit.

The next time you're at that store could you ask her for more information? Does Sissy (can't remember her last name) solely own Solid Gold now? Someone on another forum questioned whether Diamond had taken over SG.

I presume the owner of Holistic Blendz is Canadian. I went to the Holistic Blends website to check it out. The ingredients were printed so small I couldn't even read them with my reading glasses on. :frustrated: I was at the pet store yesterday and they had a bag of the cat food there and it listed menadione as an ingredient :eek: so I wonder if it's in the dog food as well?

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 07:57 AM
Help, this is making my head spin. So what is a good food right now, dry food. Tucker can't have a too high protein or he gets hyper:D and I can't deal with that. I use to cook his food for him but I guess it was too high in protein and he got super hyper, then I went to Iams that is a bad word and not a great food, so I switched to SG H&F. I don't want to go raw, as I have a fear of raw foods, being a cook in a nursing home, so what do you guys suggest?

Scott_B
September 26th, 2006, 09:09 AM
Most people feed their dogs a good quality diet so that they get lots of energy. Never heard tell of trying to de-energize a dog. :confused:

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 09:36 AM
What about Canidae, Doggy Lover?
http://www.canidae.com/

Or DVP natural balance? (bit more expensive)
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/home.html

Or the regular innova?
Innova dog dry (http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=%2F%2Fproduct%5B@id%3D%271%27%5D)

Scott, Doggy lover's dog is already a very high energy border collie...

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Thanks Prin I'll check into them, have to get ready to take Tucker to the vets right now for his shots.
Scott, too high of a protein diet causes Tucker to be crazy hyper, yes if he was a working dog I would want him to be on a higher protein diet, but I don't think I could handle him being highly active 24\7 and then he gets destructive when he gets bored things get distroyed, I don't want to go there again. He is a beautiful dog and I would never trade him but you can never have a border collie thinking about what to do next, it ends up to no good:evil:

Scott_B
September 26th, 2006, 09:46 AM
yup, i understand that, but to me it just seems weird to want to slow them down.

What about Canidae, Doggy Lover?


Scott, Doggy lover's dog is already a very high energy border collie...

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 09:50 AM
I don't think it's slowing him down, so much as not making him hyper. Kinda like kids and chocolate or something.:shrug:

technodoll
September 26th, 2006, 10:01 AM
totally bizarre. it's the carbs from the grains that make dogs hyper, not the energy from protein! :confused:

Most diets contain a certain percentage of carbohydrates although they are not considered essential nutrients for dogs. Sugars and starches, which formulate the class of digestible carbohydrates, are metabolized during digestion into glucose. Glucose provides energy, dispenses amino acids and helps synthesize fats.

Carbohydrates provide an inexpensive alternative to protein and fats. Most commercial dog foods contain a large percentage of digestible carbohydrates.
http://www.dog.com/information/carbs.asp

a link between high levels of protein in a dog’s diet and true hyperactivity has yet to be proven.

read
http://www.videxgsd.co.uk/nutrition__hyperactivity.htm

also good: http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/contrast.html

Carbohydrates are useful to dogs and cats for readily burnable fuel for all kinds of muscular and metabolic activities. Cheap and easily produced sources of carbohydrates are such items as rice, corn, wheat, barley and soy. Hmmmmmmm... sounds like what some pet food manufacturers are commonly using as their first choice for a diet’s foundation. Some even claim these plant products to be an excellent sources of protein!

Case, Carey and Hirakawa in their book on nutrition list seventeen plant products including ground rice, corn, wheat, oats, barley, alfalfa and others as sources of carbohydrates. In fact, one of the benefits of carbohydrates, so say the experts, is that they are protein sparing. That is, the animal will utilize inexpensive carbohydrate sources for energy if available to the animal before the animal will utilize more expensive (a human concept!) protein. So. . . let's add some plant material to our ideal food for the carbohydrate benefits and not confuse anybody by implying (or worse, stating) that the corn, rice or wheat is primarily a protein product. (The same authors list nineteen pet food ingredients used as protein sources. . . and ground corn, wheat, rice, oats, barley and alfalfa are NOT on that list.)

That takes care of the carbohydrates in our diet; we know we will use some inexpensive grains, however our diet will NOT use grain as the foundation or primary ingredient. And just so you know, dogs and cats do very well on diets with minimal carbohydrates and a preponderance of fats and high quality protein. Dogs and cats differ from humans in this respect. Remember… all aspects of human nutrition do not necessarily correspond to canine and feline nutrition.

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 10:07 AM
Wow more to think about, but I'll have to get back to this later this afternoon. Scott Tucker goes for about 12 hours a day on a normal day, some how I don't think he has slowed down, in hyper mode he is bouncing off the walls. Mind you he is now over 2 and has slowed down due to age, but in hyper mode he also pays no attenshion to commands. He is like a kid with ADHD. Got to go.

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 10:08 AM
But everybody's different.:shrug: I can have 10 chocolate bars and still be "normal" but give me one tylenol and I'm bouncing off the walls.

And considering when Jemma and Boo switched to WK, which is better protein, but still a few grains, they got so much new energy. :shrug:

technodoll
September 26th, 2006, 10:14 AM
but the TYPE of energy is different... carbs in dog food can produce "rushes" just like sugar does to (most) people, while energy from protein is level and better utilized... healthier in the long run. :)

of course all dogs are different though. i don't know how I'd live with such a high-energy dog, LOL! :dog: maybe he needs a job! :rolleyes:

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Prin I was looking up those pet foods and Natural Balance does contain tomato pomace, is that not one of the ingredients that we were trying to stay away from? Anyways I think I'll sto at Pet Value on the way home from the vets and have a look at the Canidae and Innova, see if they have samples to let Tucker try, he still has about 1\2 a large bag of H&F so I have time to introduce a different kind to him. I'm going to take the names you gave me to the vet and ask which one he would think is better, I'll print off their ingredients for him to look at.

Scott_B
September 26th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Which NB formula where you looking at? The venison and sweet potato & Fish dont have it?

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 01:50 PM
INGREDIENT LISTING
Chicken, Brown Rice, Duck, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Pearled Barley, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols - source of Vitamin E, Citric Acid, and Rosemary Extract), Natural Flavor, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil, Brewers Yeast, Lecithin, Choline Chloride, Carrots, Potassium Chloride, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Dried Kelp, Sodium Chloride, Parsley Flakes, Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplements, Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C), Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Lysine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid (Vitamin B-9), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D-3), Biotin, Ethylene Diamine Dihydriodide (source of Iodine), Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Sodium Selenite.

This is the ingredients from the regular blend its there, anyways I picked up the Canidae from pet value and I'm going to try that. :fingerscr
Tucker has put on a little weight (he was 56 and is now 61lbs big boy for a BC) and his vet doesn't want him to gain more so he will be cut down a little on his food. Other than that he if perfectly healthy, and the vet said he is beautiful.:thumbs up So all is well till next year.

Scott_B
September 26th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Ahh, yes the reg formula.

Anyhoo, :thumbs up for Canidae. Its a great food imo.

rainbow
September 26th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Canidae is a good choice. Glad Tucker got a :thumbs up from the vet.

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Yep he had a good day, kept him busy mind and body. First a ride in my sisters car to vet, seen vet, walked to the pet value checked out all the doggy stuff in store. Got the new food and a new bone, walked to park, had a romp in the park and got a TTC bus home. It has tired him out, just a little. Maybe he will go to bed before 11 pm tonight. Here is a pic of Tucker today, he is a big boy now.

technodoll
September 26th, 2006, 03:08 PM
he's a beaut!! he just turned 2, right? :cloud9:

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 03:13 PM
He will be 2 1\2 in mid November. Gee how time flies.

rainbow
September 26th, 2006, 03:14 PM
What a handsome boy. You're allowed to take dogs on public transit there?

doggy lover
September 26th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Yep, Tucker has been on the bus a few times no one has said anything. I have seen other dogs on the trains and buses too. I wouldn't want to do it in rush hour down town or anything though. I don't know what the written law is about the TTC, but I guess as long as they behave and are not bothering people its ok.Tucker just sits between my legs so no one bothers him or steps on his tail or anything else.

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Yeah, tomoato pomace is to be avoided... The allergy-formulas don't have it (as Scott said).

Canidae is a good choice. Remember to switch gradually though.:shrug:

Esaunders
September 26th, 2006, 05:02 PM
:offtopic:
Yup, dogs are allowed on the TTC. I remember reading that they weren't allowed during rush hour but can't find the link.

I took my pup to Woofstock on the TTC, no problem

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 05:07 PM
I got the same thing...
So I emailed back...

Me: Yes, but haven't you also added more oats?

SG: The millet and barley were reduced and the oatmeal was increased, so the overall amount of grain in the food is the same, even though the amount of the individual grains has changed.


Me: So if the grains decreased, why the need for a stool hardener (i.e. slow fiber) like tomato pomace?

SG: We have to keep the same amount of fiber in the food so that it continues to meet AAFCO specifications. In this case, however, the tomato pomace was added as a source of anitoxidents and it has the benefit of being a source of fiber as well so we were able to address two separate issues with one ingredient.

Me: But the quantity of grains didn't change, so why is there a need for more fiber?



One of the most common complaints we receive is large stool volume. To address this, we added a source of soluble fiber to aid in digestive tract health and reduce the stool volume. Tomato pomace is an alternative to beet pulp in this regard.

Best regards,

Solid Gold
Ohhh. So it WAS originally put in there for the stool hardening effects and NOT for the lycopene.:rolleyes:

SuperWanda
September 26th, 2006, 05:12 PM
That's terrible! Solid gold didn't even reply to me! I'm not happy with them at all!:mad:

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 05:17 PM
lol they're too busy replying to me all the time.:D I make them pass their one email a day quota.:D

rainbow
September 26th, 2006, 06:53 PM
Wellness (Old Mother Hubbard) still hasn't answered my email or Timberwolf Organics from ages ago. If they can't be bothered with me then I can't be bothered with them therefore would never buy their food again.

The only companies that have answered me promptly are Innova (Naturapet), Go Natural (Petcurean) and Acana/Orijen (Champion Pet Food).

technodoll
September 26th, 2006, 07:21 PM
yay for customer service! don't they know anything about retaining clients?... you spend 10 times more $ attracting a new client than retaining an old one. sheesh. somebody's resting on their laurels... :frustrated:

rainbow
September 26th, 2006, 08:57 PM
I agree. From now on, customer service is a big part of of what I will feed my boys. Do you think we could get a "sticky" that lists the companies with good customer service?

coppperbelle
September 26th, 2006, 09:05 PM
I have sent 3 e-mails to SG and still have not received a response and we are going on at least day 4. DVP Natural Balance answered my questions within 1 day. And.... I am getting some coupons and a frequent buyers card too. :thumbs up Oh Happy Day!

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 09:17 PM
Wellness was pretty good with me last time. Merrick is always great with me.. Timberwolf.. not so much.
hmm.. there was another one that started with an A that never ever got back to me (must have blocked it out...:D).

erykah1310
September 26th, 2006, 09:23 PM
Good letter Prin, its true. " the pen is mightier than the sword" ( or in your case the keyboard)
If that letter didnt get to the point, nothing will.

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 09:25 PM
thanks..:o I'm just mad.:shrug:

technodoll
September 26th, 2006, 09:31 PM
prin, that letter kicks *ss!! :highfive: i couldn't have written it better. :p do you think they will reply to it?... well not much to reply to but still... CUSTOMER SERVICE basic rules, dangnabit!

Prin
September 26th, 2006, 09:34 PM
They've replied to about 4 or 5 emails so far in the past week, but none were this harsh... (I posted them all... just questions). This will probably blindside whoever is reading my emails a bit...:shrug:

rainbow
September 26th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Excellent letter, Prin :highfive: .....I hope you get a reply. :fingerscr

vfrohloff
September 27th, 2006, 08:30 AM
I presume the owner of Holistic Blendz is Canadian. I went to the Holistic Blends website to check it out. The ingredients were printed so small I couldn't even read them with my reading glasses on. I was at the pet store yesterday and they had a bag of the cat food there and it listed menadione as an ingredient so I wonder if it's in the dog food as well?


Do you mean Holistic Blend? I thought Holistic Blendz was a SG product. If you are referring to the Canadian company Holistic Blend I think you may have gone to the wrong website. Their ingredient list is printed quite large and there is no menadione in the cat food.

vfrohloff
September 27th, 2006, 08:31 AM
I presume the owner of Holistic Blendz is Canadian. I went to the Holistic Blends website to check it out. The ingredients were printed so small I couldn't even read them with my reading glasses on. I was at the pet store yesterday and they had a bag of the cat food there and it listed menadione as an ingredient so I wonder if it's in the dog food as well?


Do you mean Holistic Blend? I thought Holistic Blendz was a SG product. If you are referring to the Canadian company Holistic Blend I think you may have gone to the wrong website. Their ingredient list is printed quite large and there is no menadione in the cat food.

www.holisticblend.com

mafiaprincess
September 27th, 2006, 12:11 PM
Holistic Blend is the other owner of solid gold, or rather until a few years ago was. They split ways, and she started up holistic blend instead and hasn't changed ingredients since then apparently.

I sent my unhappy letter to solid gold a week ago also pointing out I'm not a stupid consumer I never got a reply either.

jawert1
December 11th, 2006, 09:42 AM
I'm sorry to resurrect a silent thread, but I was curious what everyone who had been feeding SGWK changed over to. Simon and Peaches both were doing well on the new formula until about a week ago, and now both are a tad loose and Peaches has been more picky than usual in the past 2 days (though she's been steadily getting worse). I'm concerned that whatever they're reacting to has built over time (last 2 months since I got the new bags). I'm leaning towards Merrick, but am welcome to suggestions (we can't get TO here :/) :)

Prin
December 11th, 2006, 12:17 PM
I switched to Evo, but I'm not 100% happy.:o Their coats are duller and Jemma is still dandruffy if I don't give her enough fish oil. I dunno. I thought about going back to SG to Barking at the Moon since it's readily available and cheaper than the Evo too... (even though the company isn't right...)

Any allergies to be concerned about?

TeriM
December 11th, 2006, 01:48 PM
I tried Riley on Barking at the Moon and he did pretty well for about 2-3 weeks and then was steadily having more poop issues and it just wasn't quite right for him. I did notice a very strong fishy smell about it.

jawert1
December 11th, 2006, 02:18 PM
No known allergies for either Peaches or Simon, so anything is pretty much on the docket for trying. I just hate to see her looking so miserable cuz things aren't normal and she tries so hard :(

mafiaprincess
December 11th, 2006, 02:39 PM
TO here.. but I bought it in NY last month I can't get it locally enough. Cider doesn't like the Ocean bag, and her poop is hit and miss.