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Urgent: Save my dog! Looking for effective Doberman Personal Trainer in Toronto

Nick_N
September 7th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Hi everybody

I havent go on the forum for a while, I have some questions regarding to dog training, if anybody could help me out I would be really appreciated.

I have an 2 years old Doberman Pincher at home, he is very friendly with people (Since I led everybody in the neighborhood to pet him when he was a pup) I Love him very much. He is my best friend.
But whenever he sees other dogs/animals, he behaves very upset and he is very vocal (he barks so loud). There is one time I went to school in the morning, my mum just took him out for a quick pee-pee in the front yard. (she usually doesnt take him out at all, only in the morning when I'm not here) my dog see other dog across the street and he pulls and launch over at them, my mum tried to hold him back but she cannot, she felt and got dragged a little. When I got home that day I saw all the bruises on her arms and her knees, I feel very bad.

I used up my saving from my part-time job to get him back to the obedience class around my area (I spent almost $800 dollars in 4 weeks) but it didnt work out. When I was in the class with my dog, teacher didnt even touched my dog, she said my doberman barks & "get him away from the labrador Retriever, go to the corner" Anyway, it didnt work out. He stills jumps and pull like crazy when he sees dogs and small animals. Since my mum doesn't really want me to have a dog in the first place, and she sees the obedience class training is not working. She wants me to get rid of the dog and save up all the expenses. Since dad's not here and she said she doesnt have time to take care of everything and my dog if he doesnt behaves. I really dont want this to happen!! My dog is very loyal to me, I remember when I went to camping for 2 days, my sister told me my dog didnt eat. He was sitting by the garage door at night waiting for me. (Thats where I get in to the house at night) He keeps whinning and whinning, wondering where did I go. Even he is a big kid now I still pet him every night before he goes to bed. I CANNOT give away my dog! Does anybody here knows any personal dog trainer in Toronto that is very good at training Doberman? If yes, please help me out.

Thank you very much for everyone help, I really appreciated.

papillonmama
September 7th, 2006, 09:25 PM
That's really too bad, I hope you don't have to give up your dog either. A groomer recomended this one to me, http://www.whoswalkingwho.net/

It's really too bad that the other trainers weren't able to help either. It reall is a tough situation because your dog would benefit from the socialization, but is too excited when around other dogs to learn anything. Keep coming back to read others' suggestions, I'm sure there are people with more experience with this.

Good luck:)

muckypup
September 7th, 2006, 10:35 PM
I recommend Olympus or CR Dogs.

http://www.olympusk9.com/
http://www.crdogs.com/

ChancesMom
September 8th, 2006, 01:03 AM
Check this one out for tips:

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

Cygnet
September 8th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Right now, I think you should go out and buy either a prong collar or a Gentle Leader (or try both). You don't have time to wait until this dog gets trained to get him under control. He is a liability unless everybody in your family can control him.

Even if your dog doesn't mean to scare other people and their dogs (and I am not clear whether he is excited and just wants to socialize, or whether it is aggression), other dog owners don't want to see an out of control doberman charging at them. And your mother clearly isn't on board to save this dog's life. If it is going to happen, it will be up to you.

By the way, none of this is your fault. You are a kid. Your parents shouldn't have gotten a dog if THEY weren't willing to be responsible for adequately training it and caring for it. It is totally unfair to you that this has fallen on your shoulders and when you have kids of your own, I hope you won't do this to your kids. But your reality right now is what it is and if this dog doesn't get under control right away (and a prong collar or a gentle leader can and will work wonders for most dogs) this story will not have a happy ending.

You should also pursue obedience training, of course.

mastifflover
September 8th, 2006, 03:35 PM
I have used a prong collar but my recommendation is to find someone who knows how to use one properly they can be dangerous if used wrong and will not be effective. I had great success with mine but I had a trainer show me how to use it. I am sure they would not charge you to show you how to manipulate it properly. Good luck and I hope it works for you.

Cygnet
September 8th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Prong collars can be inhumane if used wrong, but I am not sure about "dangerous" unless they are used completely idiotically and sadistically. But, then again, ANY training tool (including a buckle collar) can be dangerous if it is used idiotically and sadistically.

I don't think Nick should wait around for the best trainer and the perfect solution here. This dog's life is in danger right now and (depending on what is going on) other dogs' lives might be in danger too.

jesse's mommy
September 8th, 2006, 09:06 PM
Unfortunately the dogs life can be in danger either way. It's very easy to misuse a prong collar if never taught properly. If he does decide to get a prong collar, he needs to learn the right way to use it or the dog could choke. Please don't recommend things for an "immediate result" if it could put a dog futher in danger by not using it properly.

Cygnet
September 8th, 2006, 09:34 PM
Dogs can choke on buckle collars. Dogs can choke on slip collars. Prong collars are pretty darn safe (and actually, their proponents like them because they DON'T tend to choke dogs) and using them isn't rocket science.

What isn't safe is having a doberman that is charging at people and other dogs and that nobody can control. This dog could easily do something tomorrow that will result in its death or in the death of another dog or in the injury of a person. Weighing all of the factors, I think it is important for Nick to do everything possible to get this situation under control as quickly as possible. He can do that tomorrow by getting and using a prong collar or a Gentle Leader.

jesse's mommy
September 8th, 2006, 09:42 PM
As I said before, it's a good idea to us AS LONG AS HE IS GIVEN THE PROPER INSTRUCTION. What don't you understand about that statement?

Cygnet
September 8th, 2006, 09:56 PM
I'm truly not trying to start a fight with you, Jesse's Mommy. But it might well take Nick some time to get "proper instruction" on training this dog. He can (and should, in my view) get a prong collar (or a Gentle Leader) and start using it NOW for walking this dog, even if he can't get "proper instruction" right away. The chances that a dog will "choke" on a prong collar while being walked are extremely minimal. Indeed, I don't really see any possible way for it to happen (although I know enough about freak accidents to know that one can never say never). On the other hand, the chances that this dog will hurt somebody (either because it is aggressive or because they believe it is aggressive) or will do something to cause its own death are quite high. If Nick can get "proper instruction" on how to use a prong collar tomorrow, so much the better. If he can't get "proper instruction," then I don't believe he should delay using the prong collar to walk this dog, even absent "proper instruction." YOu obviously disagree. Nick will have to decide what he is going to do.

jesse's mommy
September 8th, 2006, 10:01 PM
What is your background to be recommending someone to use a training tool like this without proper instruction? This is as bad as prescribing medication for a pet over the internet without being a vet or seeing the animal.

Prin
September 9th, 2006, 12:15 AM
Please don't try a prong collar on a dobie without being taught how. Personally, I'd never use a prong on a dobie (the fur is so short, so the prongs would be basically directly on the skin..:eek: ).

The newtrix collar might be a good place to start while you find an obedience school. It's non-damaging and pretty effective without using much strength on your part.. http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts.php

rainbow
September 9th, 2006, 12:24 AM
This is the first time I've read this thread, because of the word Toronto" in the title, I figured it didn't pertain to me. ;)

I would also recommend the Newtrix Easyway Collar. I walk two large dogs together (a husky and a lab) and it has helped me tremendously. :thumbs up

It is also sold here at the pets.ca store (click on store at the bottom of this page) for 44.95 which includes shipping.

phoenix
September 9th, 2006, 12:50 AM
I third the recommendation on the newtrix. It's an amazing help for walking (but of course no replacement for training, but in the meantime..)
Good Luck

mummummum
September 9th, 2006, 02:35 AM
I'll weigh in with a strong vote in favour of the newtrix collar and some one-on-one training for socialization and behaviour. You have a dog who is physically strong, is a "puller" and (sorry to be blunt here...) doesn't yet respect you as his leader. And it sounds like you are now in a situation where you are fearful of what your dog will do, so your tendency will be to overcorrect his pulling by pulling back. With a prong collar and even a gentle leader you are going to cause your dog pain and potentially permanent physical damage. From what I've seen of the newtrix in action on the street and at dogparks, I think it's a far safer and likely as effective an option as the prong collar for you at this point. You might also want to search past threads on this forum about aggression, some of the members along with Tenderfoot have provide really helpful advice on training and intervention methods to practice.

I just want to add that I'm dealing with aggression issues as well so I know what you are going through and I too have some work to do in earning the trust and respect of my dogs as their leader.

MyBirdIsEvil
September 9th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Unfortunately the dogs life can be in danger either way. It's very easy to misuse a prong collar if never taught properly. If he does decide to get a prong collar, he needs to learn the right way to use it or the dog could choke.

Honestly I think it's extremely unlikely to choke a dog with a prong collar, you're more likely to choke your dog with a flat collar. Prong collars are made like half check collars, and unless you put them on extremely tight in the first place it would be hard to choke your dog, in fact I've seen most people put them on too loose, not too tight.

I still wouldn't recommend using a prong collar unless you know a lot about it though, especially on such a large dog. Sticking a prong collar on a dog that has lunging or agression issues isn't going to make the dog suddenly behave, you have to be taught how to properly use the collar, and use it along with training, for it to actually make any difference. If you're just yanking on the collar while the dog is lunging and pulling, it's just going to confuse the dog, and may even make it lash out towards you because it's not sure what's causing the discomfort.

If you've ever watched the Dog Whisperer, there was an episode with a poodle that liked to lunge at cars. The owners had a prong collar on the dog and all the did was cause the dog to spin around uncontrollably while trying to get to the car, almost knocking the owners over and pulling them into traffic. Until they were given guidance, the prong collar had almost no effect, which is what's likely to happen until you actually know how to use it.

If you want to actually solve the problem, I would look into books and articles about establishing yourself as pack leader. I would recommend Cesar Millan's book, not because it's necessarily the most detailed out there (though it's extremely helpful), but because it's one of the easiest books to read and understand. I talks about all kinds of things to do to make your dog realize that you're in control of all situations. It also talks about fixation and body language. Your dog doesn't just suddenly see a dog and run towards it, there's several hints that the dog has noticed the other dog and may be ready to lunge towards it, you have to distract your dog or remove it from the situation BEFORE it decides to lunge at the other dog, because by that time, the dog is big enough to drag you and you can't do much about it besides try to hold the dog or drag it away, which teaches it nothing.
This isn't an obedience training book however, if you want info on how to properly use a leash and collar to train your dog, there's plenty of other books and articles out there, as well as several threads on this forum.

angeldogs
September 9th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I was using a prong collar on my dog which has the fine hair also.And if he would pull and i would take it off and checked his neck i would see red spots.Also it was rubbing his fur off.I talk to a trainer in Kitchener.She told me to try the SENSE-ation Harness.So i went up and fitted the harness.Works great.you clip the lead to the front at the chest.And on a flat collar in the beginning and ween it to just the harness.My dog can still pull but not at full strenght.And he's strong.It hits the presser points and makes the dog feel like he is losing his balance.He would just about pull my wife over.Last night she tried to walk him.And he could not puller over.Love the haness.dog likes it also.No presser on the neck and more freedom to sniff.

Cygnet
September 10th, 2006, 09:06 AM
I absolutely agree that a prong collar (and perhaps to a lesser extent, a Gentle Leader) causes a dog discomfort. I would not be surprised if a prong collar caused "little red spots" on dog's neck when the dog pulls (and if the dog is shorthaired, you are more likely to notice those spots, but it could also cause them in a long haired dog). But Nick is confronted with a situation where his dog is going to be dead in a very short time if there isn't a very serious intervention. Between little red spots and being dead, I would choose little red spots for any of my dogs (By the way, I don't even like prong collars and hardly ever recommend them and have never used one on my own dogs-but I do think that they work and they beat being dead).

I am not familiar with the "newtrix" collar. I am familiar with the cycle that the reputation of training aids typically follow: First there is a highly enthusiastic contingent of people recommending the new aid's use. Then there are people who come and say how they are bad, and cause permanent physical harm or psychological damage or warts or something. There is a big backlash, usually NOT based on any real evidence of a lot of dogs being hurt. For example, remember the supposed "study in Germany" that demonstrated that slip collars cause tracheal damage in dogs? It is very persuasive, except that I have never seen a shred of evidence that any such study was actually done. I am pretty convinced it is nothing more than an internet rumor, but lots and lots of people take it as fact and people absolutely believe it happened and that anybody who uses a slip collar on his/her dog is injuring it. Head halters, too, have their supporters and people who say that they are horrible and dangerous and should NEVER be used. But where are the articles by veterinary neurologists noting a huge increase in neck injuries on dogs walked on head halters? And who can forget shock collars?

At any rate, I expect there will soon be a contingent of people trashing "newtrix" collars and telling us why they are dangerous and horrible. Whatever.

My take on all of this is that most of the standard training aids can be helpful and only rarely (and with a combination of unbelievable stupidity and/or cruelty and/or very bad luck) can they be dangerous to dogs in a way that threatens the dog's life or permanent health. Bad training can psychologically damage a dog, of course, but that can happen on a buckle collar or no collar at all. Pretty much ALL these collars work because they are aversive. (the prong collar advocates love to say that prongs just "communicate" with the dog--uh, yeah, they communicate in a way that leaves little red spots...) . I am sure that the newtrix collar is aversive to the dog, too. A lot of preference for one method over another is based on what the human finds less objectionable, not what the dog does. Note how lots of "positive only" people think a collar that sprays citronella in a dog's face for nuisance barking is just lovely, whereas they think that a collar that shocks the dog briefly when he barks is unbelievably cruel. This is because THEY would rather be sprayed with citronella than shocked, not because there is any evidence that dogs wouldn't prefer a brief shock to having their unbelievably senstive noses assaulted by noxious chemicals that linger even after the barking has ceased.

OntarioGreys
September 10th, 2006, 11:56 AM
Dr. Gary Landsberg - Highly esteemed veterinary behaviorist, at Doncaster Veterinary Clinic - one of approximately 30 certified veterinary behaviorists in North America by the American Veterinary Association. He will recommend a trainer to work with as well if necessary
http://www.doncasteranimalclinic.com/


Dr. Susan Simmons - Simmons is one of only three applied animal behaviourists in Canada
Heartland Pet Hospital
5950n Rodeo Drive
Mississauga, ON
Phone: (905)501-1514

Prin
September 10th, 2006, 01:27 PM
I am not familiar with the "newtrix" collar. I am familiar with the cycle that the reputation of training aids typically follow: First there is a highly enthusiastic contingent of people recommending the new aid's use. Then there are people who come and say how they are bad, and cause permanent physical harm or psychological damage or warts or something. There is a big backlash, usually NOT based on any real evidence of a lot of dogs being hurt. For example, remember the supposed "study in Germany" that demonstrated that slip collars cause tracheal damage in dogs? It is very persuasive, except that I have never seen a shred of evidence that any such study was actually done. I am pretty convinced it is nothing more than an internet rumor, but lots and lots of people take it as fact and people absolutely believe it happened and that anybody who uses a slip collar on his/her dog is injuring it. Head halters, too, have their supporters and people who say that they are horrible and dangerous and should NEVER be used. But where are the articles by veterinary neurologists noting a huge increase in neck injuries on dogs walked on head halters? And who can forget shock collars?

At any rate, I expect there will soon be a contingent of people trashing "newtrix" collars and telling us why they are dangerous and horrible. Whatever.
Actually the neck injuries were not for haltis but for gentle leaders. There's a difference there. Gentle leaders turn the head, and can cause injuries to the cervical spine. Since the newtrix doesn't turn the head, I'm pretty sure that won't be a factor.


As for citronella vs shock, who is saying citronella is great? You can't really make general statements like that because you don't have any supporting evidence really.:confused:

So risking permanent injury for a dog is ok, because the ends justifies the means?

I said it before and I'll say it again: unless you have been shown how to use a prong properly, please don't use it.

phoenix
September 10th, 2006, 02:28 PM
Cygnet I'd recommend that you BECOME familiar with something before you comment on it.

The newtrix works by applying pressure behind the ears. The natural response to pressure there is to back into it to release it. When the dog pulls forward, the sensation/tightening is felt; when the dog moves back into the pressure, it releases. It's not the same as metal spikes, or chain, or anything that causes torsion. I can't see it causing injury in any way, and that's why I chose it (educated AND experienced choice, by the way).

My trainer recommended a prong for Sam. I refused and did the class with the Newtrix. All the other dogs were in prongs (including a dog-aggressive dobie). I'm glad that I did; Sam was comfortable and compliant and I can't say the same for the others. But at least their owners were getting training on how to use it properly.

rainbow
September 10th, 2006, 03:10 PM
Good post, Phoenix. :thumbs up

jesse's mommy
September 10th, 2006, 03:12 PM
Thank you Phoenix. :D

LL1
September 10th, 2006, 03:36 PM
Please don't use a Prong.

Try asking Dobe rescue in Ontario who they suggest as trainers and behaviorists and get some hands on help.

animal_guardian_@hotmail.com

ausleben@rogers.com members.rogers.com

dobermanrescue@hotmail.com

korevaar@execulink.com

and by phone
Kathy Asling 905-263-8247
Heather Cole 905-797-3087
Sheila Summers 416-247-3679
Mary Korevaar 519-462 -1364

Cygnet
September 11th, 2006, 07:04 PM
I probably shouldn't reply to this since, as they say, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't even much like prong collars. But I still have never seen any good evidence that prong collars cause serious, much less "permanent" injuries to dogs in any significant numbers. Like haltis and gentle leaders and choke collars and every other training device I have ever heard of, prong collars have their detractors and their advocates. But where is the hard evidence of all the permanent injuries caused by prong collars?

Perhaps this is because everybody who uses a prong collar has had proper instruction beforehand? Of course, we know that isn't true. People buy them at Petsmart because they worked on Uncle Joe's rottweiler without ever having been near an obedience class/instructor. And (I've heard tell) even people who HAVE been to obedience classes frequently don't do what they are told to do.

Anyway, I am done with this except to link to this article to show claims about the potential for injuries for head halters (and yes, it is all kinds of head halters, not just Gentle Leaders). http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html Note this author is strongly implying that there is LESS potential for physical harm to dogs with prongs than with head halters. At least she doesn't cite to the "study in Germany" where 100 dogs were necropsied and virtually none of the prong collar trained dogs had injuries and virtually all of the slip collar trained dogs had injuries. Lots and lots of dog trainers know all about that "study" and tell their students about it. The only problem is that I can't find any evidence any such study exists and that it isn't just a complete fabrication.


Again, I am not endorsing the views expressed by Ms. Clothier. I am just linking to this to show the diversity of opinion about training aids.

And I hope Nick's dog survives, whatever he chooses to do with him.

Prin
September 11th, 2006, 08:44 PM
First of all, the article in your link is the wrong one. Second, the article on head halters is about gentle leaders:

What horrified me was the number of people (remember, these are professional trainers and serious dog folks!) who would simply stop at a booth, allowing the dog to drift ahead until he reached the end of the lead and then had his head brought sharply to one side.

Third, more than half of that article was about dogs looking depressed in a halti and how when exchanged for an untightened prong a dog looks happier. :confused: And? It takes a dog a while to get used to having a halti on, just as it takes time to get them to get used to having a leash on in the beginning. A lot of dogs don't take well to leashes the first time they're clipped to one. Should we switch to off-leash, because the dog looks much happier right away?


But I still have never seen any good evidence that prong collars cause serious, much less "permanent" injuries to dogs in any significant numbers.Can you describe your field of work that allows you contact with so many dogs?

I could say too that "I've seen GREAT evidence that prongs can be used abusively" because every time my big dog sees one he drops to the ground and whimpers and promptly throws up. Sure, my sample size isn't big, but at least I'm open about it.:rolleyes:

phoenix
September 11th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Prin I seem bound to argue with you tonight! I don't mean to. However, evidence doesn't have to be first hand experience.

I think it is true that properly used prongs cause less damage than chokes, I can't remember where I read that but I'm pretty sure. I don't care enough to check though.

But to side with you, as I stated earlier, the newtrix is not the same as a gl or a halti, the action is completely different. And if you think a dog looks unhappy in a halter you should see a foal (horse) in one for the first time. Look out!

BMDLuver
September 11th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Lol Phoenix, I was thinking the same thing about the foal...

I also looked at the newtrix and it's pretty much the same gimmick as you would put on a horse putting pressure on it's poll.. I've seen many horses twist around to fight to get out so I would think the dog would and could do the same thing.. I would be worried about vertebrae misalignment from that attempt. Not saying it's going to happen but that I could see it happening with a high spirited dog.

As with any training tool... use with supervision and be informed of the possible risks... even on the newtrix they warn to wear a second collar in case the dog pulls backwards and slips out of it.. so that would mean a double leash would be a good idea as well.

I don't think there's a simple solution for this Dobe but to enroll with one of the trainers LL1 recommended and learn the correct methods to train him.

Prin
September 11th, 2006, 09:55 PM
Prin I seem bound to argue with you tonight! I don't mean to. However, evidence doesn't have to be first hand experience.No but it has to come from somewhere.:shrug: Right?

The bottom line is, see a trainer. :D

Prin
September 11th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Oh, and for some reason, they just don't seem to struggle when you put on the newtrix. I know a few dogs who have it- including Boo- and nobody has thrashed or anything with it on. :shrug: It probably has something to do with the idea that it's meant to mimick how a dam grabs her pups, but I'm not sure horses do that.

phoenix
September 11th, 2006, 09:58 PM
the newtrix attaches to the collar so if the dog slips out you're still attached to the main collar with your leash. :confused:

I am not sure about your poll analogy (do you mean a device to lower the head or collect?) I've never used one.

I do know that I have a pretty high spirited dog and he has never jacknifed or dolphin-d in the newtrix as he has in a gl... he just immediately backs into the pressure. The only issue I've had with it is the nose wiping... if he can find a leg, he'll try to wipe the nosepiece off on you. But no twisting at all (JME)

Prin
September 11th, 2006, 09:59 PM
omg Boo too! It makes for an awkward first impression with strangers.:o

BMDLuver
September 11th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Actually, mares do nip their foals on the poll and withers to discipline them when they are getting out of hand so the premise would be there too I would think.

BMDLuver
September 11th, 2006, 10:02 PM
I am not sure about your poll analogy (do you mean a device to lower the head or collect?) I've never used one.


There's a halter that is designed to put poll pressure and is used primarily on studs and foals when breaking them to halter. I've seen them flip over backwards trying to fight the halter. Not a pretty sight on concrete but it's used a lot in the QH world by trainers.

Prin
September 11th, 2006, 10:04 PM
What's a poll?

BMDLuver
September 11th, 2006, 10:06 PM
Basically it's the area right behind the ears and a bit foreward of the ears... kind of like where the bump on Boo's head is.

Prin
September 11th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Ahhh... I see. The newtrix fits right below there. Below the occiput.

angeldogs
September 12th, 2006, 05:32 AM
This is why i don't like the gentle.The so called trainer at pet smart put it on him.Later found out from a Vet that gentle leader had contact me.After i sent them an e:mail.He said that it should clip right behind the ears.And should not be able to get a finger under it.This is what i saw after i took it off of him the first night with it before bed.it was worst.Caused by the GL not being tight enough and it turning on the head.

Cygnet
September 12th, 2006, 07:39 AM
Okay. I know I said I was done with this thread, but I guess I lied.

Prin,

Where do you get that Ms. Clothier's article on head halters is only about Gentle Leaders? She specifically says she is not a fan of head halters "of any design" and I didn't see anywhere where she said she was only talking about Gentle Leaders. And while I agree that she talks a lot about the supposed depressive effect of head halters she actually says that "On a physical basis, the halter is probably the one piece of training equipment that appalls me most - the potential for injuring the dog is simply too high."

I also agree that evidence has to come from somewhere. That is why when we are slinging around phrases like "permanent injury" in connection with prong collars, I would like to see some studies or at least some anecdotal evidence that there are a lot of dogs suffering permanent injury from prong collars before I will blindly accept that as a fact. We haven't seen that. This is not to say that it doesn't exist (unlike the "study in Germany" that everybody knows about purporting to show how safe prong collars are and how dangerous slip collars are which I am pretty convinced doesn't exist--sorry to keep bringing this up, but it bugs me how many dog people cite to this nonexistent study) but we haven't seen evidence.

As to what I do for a living, it has nothing to do with dogs. But one of the other things that kind of bugs me about this thread is that people tell Nick to go to "a trainer" as though there are some safeguards there and he is guaranteed of getting a competent one. Sadly, that isn't the case. He might find a great trainer. On the other hand, there are a ton of people calling themselves trainers (many of whom do it for a living) who are dangerous to dogs. (Probably moreso than ANY commonly available piece of training equipment). There are even more people calling themselves trainers (many of whom do it for a living) who are totally ineffective with dogs. In my town, if a person wanted a private lesson with a trainer and looked in the phone book, they would get to choose between the guy who trains all of his dogs ONLY with shock collars and the woman whose own dog pays absolutely no attention to her unless she is on leash and the woman is waving food in her face. I don't think that just because these people are "trainers" that that means that they have the solution to Nick's problems.

Actually, the best dog trainers I know tend to be people who don't do it for a living. So, with "trainers" (like equipment) you really have to be careful and make your own decisions.

Jacque
September 12th, 2006, 09:07 AM
A plain old soft rope choka in the hands of an experienced handler is enough to train any dobermann. This dog needs to be taught his behaviour is unacceptable and for the experienced it is a simple matter. But this girl sounds very inexperienced and her dog has run riot when out and about and she has little if no control. A halti, Yes a halti is probably her best method. That doesn't mean she places the halti on the dog attached to a six foot lead. A short lead and her hand near the dogs mouth where the halti joins on the side. This works and the dog because of the halti does not leap about and carry on. That's how I would start her off training this dog and slowly the dog will learn to follow where his head goes. It should take only a week or two but this dog would be under some control. And go to obedience classes. Not the ones that cost what was it, $800 for four weeks and no training. There must be a Dobermann Club somewhere near that can help. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the area she lives but someone out there must know.

OntarioGreys
September 12th, 2006, 09:29 AM
I would like to see some studies or at least some anecdotal evidence that there are a lot of dogs suffering permanent injury from prong collars before I will blindly accept that as a fact. We haven't seen that. This is not to say that it doesn't exist (unlike the "study in Germany" that everybody knows about purporting to show how safe prong collars are and how dangerous slip collars are which I am pretty convinced doesn't exist--sorry to keep bringing this up, but it bugs me how many dog people cite to this nonexistent study) but we haven't seen evidence.


Are you aware the the prong is a form of slip collar?

There are several different styles of slip collars but they all have one thing in common the all tighten around the neck.

the full choke in nylon, leather or chain

http://www.dog-training.com/images/wcslipcollar.JPG

then a limited slip also called humane choke, this tightens just at one end but is designed so that it only can tighten to a limited degree

http://www.silkroadcollars.com/images/collars/ltdslip1.jpg

A martingale is a type of limited slip collar but tighten evenly on bothe ends
http://www.champk-9.com/images/CC-CO-RBstill.gif

Even the prong is a form of limited slip as it tightens like the martingale

http://www.jindo-dog-rescue.org/articles/collar2.JPG

technodoll
September 12th, 2006, 10:29 AM
the OP has not returned since his first post. Wonder if he's still reading all this advice?... and what has happened to his dobie since then?... :shrug:

Esaunders
September 12th, 2006, 11:52 AM
I'm a little leery of the Newtrix myself for a couple reasons

1) It definitely is operating on poll pressure and that is combined with the increased leverage of a ring system acting like a pulley. This magnifies the amount of pressure being applied to the dogs equivalent of our temple. So the 'feel' to the user is deceptive. There is much more pressure being exerted than is apparant.

2) It is teaching the dog to move into pressure instead of teaching them to give to pressure. Just like if you stand in front of a dog, pull on its leash and when it digs its feet in, reward it.

It may 'work' in the sense the dog is under control but not in the sense that it is teaching the dog what you need to progress off of it


At least the GL and Halti are teaching giving in to pressure, but the potential for neck damage is worrisome in my personal opinion.

MyBirdIsEvil
September 12th, 2006, 01:45 PM
The bottom line is, for the most part sticking some device on a dog that has serious behavioral issues isn't going to suddenly make it better.
Original poster is welcome to try a prong collar on his dog, but without any experience using a prong collar, they shouldn't expect some kind of miracle. Most dogs can learn to get around almost any device if it's used by someone who doesn't know how to use it properly. For instance, the dog could learn to spin around in circles to get away from the pressure, knocking over the handler, afterall it is a large dog.
The original poster who doesn't even know WHEN you're supposed to correct the dog, isn't teaching the dog anything just by sticking a prong collar on the dog. If the dog is corrected after it has already lunged at another dog it's unlikely to keep the dog from doing it in the future, and that's when most inexperienced people correct behavior, AFTER it's already happened. The dog has to be corrected as soon as he becomes interested in lunging at the other dog, and if the owner can't tell when that is, a prong collar isn't much use.

On the other hand, the owner could put a prong collar on the dog and depending on the dogs personality it may work wonders, but nothing replaces actually learning about your dogs behavior and learning about dog training. All devices are merely a training AID, they're not meant to fix all your dogs bad behaviors, especially with a large animal.

I've ridden horses for several years, and it's the exact same thing, there's tons upon tons of devices meant to cure problem behaviors and make your horse more pleasant, but any large animal can get around a device, and for the most part when a device isn't used along with good training it actually causes MORE problem behaviors.
As an example, a chain can be looped through an excitable horse's halter so that pressure is put either on the nose or the chin, and for someone that knows how to handle a horse it may work well in helping control the horse and is unlikely to cause injury.
Well, put that horse in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to handle a horse. They're standing the wrong way, holding the lead wrong, pulling really hard trying to "control" the horse, and there's nothing to prevent that horse from running them over or rearing up and kicking them to get away from the pressure. Basically, any device in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it, is likely to cause problems, or not have the desired effect.

Note: I wouldn't use a chain through a halter myself, just making an example.

Esaunders
September 12th, 2006, 02:48 PM
MyBirdIsEvil

I have similar background and agree with you 100%. I've seen exactly the same thing.

Dogs are dogs, horses are horses and there is nothing new under the sun when its comes to training just re-packaging & re-branding.

LM1313
September 12th, 2006, 03:28 PM
I do think that humans have a tendency to look at training devices through anthromorphic eyes . . . The prong collar and choke chain are scary looking things made of chain, whereas the "head halters" look "nice" and soft . . . But my dog had no problem wearing a choke chain yet repeatedly went crazy trying to rip the Halti off her head. That's anecdotal; I'm sure a lot of dogs are fine with the Halti. But not every dog.

Anyway, I agree that they're all just aids to training; patient training is the most important aspect.

I do see Cygnet's point, though; it's essential to keep control of the dog so he can't hurt other dogs, beginning immediately. If it were my dog, I wouldn't take him out of the yard until speaking to the trainer. The trainer will be able to give more helpful advice regarding what training tools to use, if any.

rainbow
September 12th, 2006, 04:09 PM
My this thread has been busy. Maybe everyone needs to agree to disagree. Not every device works well for every dog and they are all only tools not training.

The only issue I've had with it is the nose wiping... if he can find a leg, he'll try to wipe the nosepiece off on you.

omg Boo too! It makes for an awkward first impression with strangers.

I've got that x2. I hate having to stop and talk to someone because the boys get too impatient and I end up with two heads between my legs. :eek:

chico2
September 12th, 2006, 05:33 PM
I have nothing to add,but that prong-collar looks like a torturedevice:evil:

Cygnet
September 12th, 2006, 06:27 PM
The fact that prongs look so awful is one of the worst things about them, I think. Of course, AKC doesn't even allow head halters around the obedience rings (or even on the show grounds?) on the grounds that they look like muzzles. I think that is insane, but hey, that's the AKC for you.

BMDLuver
September 12th, 2006, 06:58 PM
The prong is not a torture device... in fact... is quite gentle if used correctly. They don't dig in the skin... they pinch the same as if you pinched yourself mildly. It's a tool and used properly in conjunction with proper training, patience and perseverance can aid in the end result of a well behaved walking dog.

Prin
September 12th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Prin,

Where do you get that Ms. Clothier's article on head halters is only about Gentle Leaders? She specifically says she is not a fan of head halters "of any design" and I didn't see anywhere where she said she was only talking about Gentle Leaders. And while I agree that she talks a lot about the supposed depressive effect of head halters she actually says that "On a physical basis, the halter is probably the one piece of training equipment that appalls me most - the potential for injuring the dog is simply too high."
Try reading the rest of the *right* article. I even quoted it with the important part in bold in my post #27.;)
But one of the other things that kind of bugs me about this thread is that people tell Nick to go to "a trainer" as though there are some safeguards there and he is guaranteed of getting a competent one. Sadly, that isn't the case. He might find a great trainer. On the other hand, there are a ton of people calling themselves trainers (many of whom do it for a living) who are dangerous to dogs. (Probably moreso than ANY commonly available piece of training equipment). There are even more people calling themselves trainers (many of whom do it for a living) who are totally ineffective with dogs.
The risk of landing on a bad trainer, especially since LL1 referred the OP to great people that can help, is no reason to never try one.:frustrated:

Cygnet
September 13th, 2006, 07:26 AM
Prin,

I do apologize, but I still don't understand why you are saying that Ms. Clothier is talking only about Gentle Leaders. She specifically refers to head halters "of any design" (emphasis added). I went back and re-read your post 27, and the only thing that I saw there is this:

"What horrified me was the number of people (remember, these are professional trainers and serious dog folks!) who would simply stop at a booth, allowing the dog to drift ahead until he reached the end of the lead and then had his head brought sharply to one side."

So are you saying that this would be impossible with a Halti? And you are saying that that is all that Suzanne Clothier was talking about even though she explicitly said she was talking about head halters of any design?

And, of course, nobody in this thread has ever said that Nick should "never" take this dog to a trainer. Quite the contrary, everybody has urged him to seek as much help as quickly as he can. But when a family has a dog that the adult in the family cannot control, who is lunging at other dogs, and when the adult is threatening to get rid of the dog, that is a situation that needs to be brought under control immediately. Every day, in fact every hour, that goes by increases the probability that the dog will not survive. He may also hurt somebody else (indeed, he has already hurt Nick's mother).

If your heart and breathing stop for some reason, and I was the only person around, I would do CPR on you, even though my CPR certification has expired, because if I DON'T do it, (and instead wait for somebody with proper qualifications to arrive, perhaps a cardiologist), you are dead. That is how I read Nick's original post.

mona_b
September 13th, 2006, 09:52 AM
I have to agree with not using the Prong.I have seen a few Dobes with a Prong on and it was NOT on right.The Prong is not supposed to be on the lower part of the neck,but higher.And they still were pulling.This will definately cause damage.You cannot just put one on a dog without knowing how to use it.

Nick,you say your dog has been socialized.I take that it was only done with people?Cause this is what I get from your info.Correct me if I'm wrong..:)

Definately check out the links LL1 posted.And the "who's walking who"is a great training facility as I have know a few who have went there.

Your dogs needs to learn how to be around other dogs.This is a given.And I see that your mother can't control the dog.Which is not fair to to her.

My father is a senior,and he has never had any problems walking any of my GSD's..Dogs,cats,squirrels can be around and my dog won't budge.

You need to be in control of your dog.Please check out the links and they can help you do this....:thumbs up

Prin
September 13th, 2006, 09:43 PM
So are you saying that this would be impossible with a Halti? And you are saying that that is all that Suzanne Clothier was talking about even though she explicitly said she was talking about head halters of any design? Gentle leaders turn the head. Other haltis, like the Newtrix one DON'T. Do you get it now? How can the halti turn the head and damage the neck if the halti isn't designed to make the head turn at all?

rainbow
September 13th, 2006, 10:41 PM
I thought there was a brand called the "Halti" that works the same as the "Gentle Leader" and I thought the "Newtrix Easyway Headcollar" was the only one that worked by pulling from the back of the neck. :confused:

Prin
September 13th, 2006, 10:43 PM
Yeah, there are a few that turn the head, but there are others that just hold the head sort of like the newtrix but they don't tighten. :shrug:

Cygnet
September 14th, 2006, 07:25 AM
Whew. Well, that took a long time to clarify. Prin obviously didn't understand that "halti" is a brand of head harness (just as Gentle Leader is) when she wrote (about Suzanne Clothier's critique of head halters "of any design"):

"Actually the neck injuries [that Ms. Clothier feared as a consequence of head halters] were not for haltis but for gentle leaders."

That led to my asking Prin to clarify the basis for that opinion.

I want to point out that Ms. Clothier also doesn't give any actual hard evidence of a lot of neck injuries as a result of either Haltis or Gentle Leaders. (Just as we have neither seen nor heard any hard evidence of a lot of serious, much less permanent, injuries from prong collars). She just says she thinks they are theoretically possible. Maybe she will change her indictment of head halters "of any design" to reflect an endorsement of the newtrix. Maybe not. Maybe she (and others) will come up with other (theoretical or otherwise) problems with the newtrix.

I think that the potential to hurt dogs from all collars exists, but it is low unless the collar is used idiotically or sadistically. The only dog injury I have had from a collar was from a buckle collar--a dog I had suddenly became allergic to the metal on the buckle and she developed a nasty looking red, bare spot as a result.

mollydogsmom
September 14th, 2006, 02:36 PM
HI, Not sure if you found the answer you are looking for. But please try www.leapsandboundstraining.com
Suzanne has rescued a Dob that was aggressive and going to be put down, he is now the sweetest dog you could meet.
She works one on one or you can see if she has a semi private class available. Not only that but she all does protection work with dogs that need an outlet for their excess energy.
I highly recommend her as I just finished puppy 101 with my Molly.

Good Luck

Nick_N
September 15th, 2006, 01:21 AM
Hi everyone :)

Thank you so much for your help and all the input in the past few days. I'm now using the newtrix collar on him and he is getting better on the walk. I feel he does alot better when I'm more relax when holding the leash. Less tense. Well, sometimes he is still a little agressive towards other dogs, especially when the other dog is walking/passing by our driveway. I'm trying to distract him when their is a dog passing by, but its not always work. Its like 50/50. I think we just need alot more practice.

Thank you guys, I really appreciated for everyone's help. You guys are Angels :angel:

Prin
September 15th, 2006, 01:30 AM
Thanks for the update. I hope things get better with training.:fingerscr

rainbow
September 15th, 2006, 01:35 AM
Nick, I hope you will be satisfied with the Newtrix headcollar. Did you also check out the link that the previous poster (mollydogsmom) gave you. Good Luck and keep us posted. :fingerscr

mona_b
September 15th, 2006, 07:49 AM
I'm glad to hear that the newtrix is helping.

What you now need to focus on is the way he is with other dogs.He needs to learn how to be with them.And this is where a trainer comes in.They can teach you how to correct his behaviour with it.The Newtrix is only correcting his pulling.

What do you do when he acts this way?
Does he know his basic commands like sit,stay?

Also,was he socialized with other dogs/pups when he was a pup?

Have you posted any pics of him?:D

LM1313
September 15th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Great to hear from you, I was wondering how you were doing. :) Please do seek out a professional trainer as well as using the Newtrix!

Dog Dancer
September 15th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Glad to hear from you Nick, I was wondering if you were still around. Glad the newtrix is helping. I plan on getting one for Halo. I also have issues with her barking when we pass strange dogs, so I have been working on distracting her. She is very food motivated so when I see a dog coming I put her in a sit and show her a small treat. I make her shake a paw, down, sit, all while the dog is going by. When she does her training bits she gets her treat so she is slowly learning that by not reacting to the other beastie she gets a reward. It's not easy to get her to focus sometimes, but having the treat there helps with this. It's not perfect, I have to try to catch her before she starts acting up. Unfortunately as I walk two large dogs at once it's very hard to correct and control her once the crazies begin. So the distraction technique is really helping me right now. She never used to even want to sit when a dog went by, but now she will, even if I don't have a cookie left. I just put her through her paces and she concentrates on me not them. Keep working on it and good luck.