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humane?

littlesister
August 28th, 2006, 02:35 PM
Some years back, I was looking to acquire a dog. I visited a well publicized shelter, took a foster in, read profiles of dogs available, and realized some of these dogs had been there for a full year, and even more. This was no luxury rescue, a regular shelter where dogs are caged and conditions are minimally adequate due to a lack of funds and overflow of unwanted animals. A certain dog caught my eye, an energetic young dog. My heart set on him, he'd been there almost a year. He was frantic in his cage howling, crying out, jumping... I tried to imagine living like that for almost a year, I had to get him out of that cage. In an interview session, it was explained to me that this dog had separation anxiety and had been returned twice having torn apart his last adopter's home in an anxiety crisis. A very difficult dog, I was warned, only for someone with a great deal of experience with these issues. His new home would require a very high fence, he was a "jumper." He stayed in a "jumper cage." This was basically a cage with a low ceiling, to discourage jumping.
I wasn't experienced enough, and indeed I may have found it difficult to afford replacing furniture and walls frequently in my home.
In further visits, months later, he was still in the same condition. After having found a suitable dog, I stopped looking, but the images and question remains.
How humane is it to keep a dog like that so restricted for more than a year?
Surely he spent 22 hours a day at least in his small cage, only taken out for short walks by volunteers.
If finally he wasn't adopted, after all that time, maybe he would have been better off euthanized to begin with.

Go on, comment....

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 02:46 PM
What exactly are you looking to debate? Whether or not a dog should be killed rather than staying in a no-kill shelter?

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 04:05 PM
(IMO) I think a organization calling its a non-kill is in humane, yes these shelters keep the animals until the end but if you look close at the fine print you will also see that it will (most of the time say) 'as long as they are healthy an non aggressive and deemed adoptable'. Do YOU think it is humane to keep an animal that was someones pet at the age of 13-16 to spend the rest of it's days in a cage because the owner died? Do you think its humane to keep a dog that is so dog aggressive till its end staring across the walkway from its enemy? Do you think its humane to keep a tiny kitten/puppy that is sick and weak that even with treatment it may still be in pain in the end it dieing anyway, is this humane? I sorry but this is my honest opinion sometimes I think it is far greater and humane to have an animal pts than suffer like this

chico2
August 28th, 2006, 04:08 PM
I think if we were able to ask the dog"do you want to die??"I think he would answer"no,I'll take my chances on someone wanting to love me one day"..
At our Humane Society,there are several animals who have been there a long time,especially an old female German Shepard.
She is unadoptable,but has adapted to living at HS,a lot of people love her,take her for walks etc...and she'll probably die there,it's sad,but she is better off there than on the street where she was found.
I know a few people here believe,better euthanize than staying in a shelter,but some shelters really take good care of their animals,I guess many don't,but I still believe life is better than death.

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Man. This is a pretty rough place to be today!

First off, let me start by saying that I don't believe in a right to live by simply being capable of drawing a breath.

The concept of the No-Kill Shelter is a good one but lets face it - what quality of life is offered to a dog or cat that lives in a cage 24/7 for years?

I find it a bit ironic that some of the people here who think that it is a perfectly exceptable existance for a dog with no home are also the people who think that crating a dog in a home for a full eight hour day is cruel.

Can someone explain that to me?

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 04:22 PM
The thing is, not all non-kill shelters are the same. Not all of them have their dogs in cages for 22 hours a day.

Guess we just have to adopt more and tell people not to be bybs or buy from petstores.:shrug:

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 04:26 PM
I'm with my purple friend on this one. What kind of life is living in a cage all day and all night? I think that every effort should be made to adopt the dog out, but if everything fails, then there should be some serious thought put into what would be best for the dog, and that may just be putting him to sleep.

what's with all these weird posts by non-newbies today???

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Puppyluv, you should take a trip down to Monteregie one day and have a look around.:)

chico2
August 28th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Well,just because I don't think there should be a timelimit on a dogs life,I am weird:eek:
I have to admit,I've only ever seen our Oakville HS and although a shelter,they take really good care of their animals.
The dogs are taken out more than once a day,have beds and toys and plenty of people to keep them company.
Sure it's not ideal,all dogs/cats should have loving homes,but unfortunately that is not the case.
As for crating a dog for 8 hours/day and often at night,yes,to me that is cruel..

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 04:52 PM
Well,just because I don't think there should be a timelimit on a dogs life,I am weird:eek:
I'm with you chico. :highfive:

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Nobody said that you are weird and I sure hope that this doesn't end up being one of those threads that gets closed because people could not be respectful of other people's opinions.

So, it is ok to keep a dog in a kennel for 22 hours a day so long as it has a nice bed and some toys?

So, when the "No-Kill" shelter is full of dogs that have been there for months - what happens to the dogs that come in and have no place else to go? Do they get to go to vet to be put to sleep? Do they get dumped on some road somewhere?

I am not opposed to the concept of a No Kill shelter. But I think that it really isn't a completely developed concept. I really think that there really is so much more to this then just keeping dogs for the rest of their lives.

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Although I've never been, I know what Monteregie is like, and I don't think it's like the shelter that the OP is describing. I think Monteregie is great, and that the animals there should not be put down, but if the OP is correct in thinking that these dogs are spending 22+ hours a day locked in a cage, then some alternatives should be considered when a dog goes through 2 failed adoptions.

If it was me locked in that cage, I would be begging to be pts.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 05:01 PM
So, when the "No-Kill" shelter is full of dogs that have been there for months - what happens to the dogs that come in and have no place else to go? Do they get to go to vet to be put to sleep? Do they get dumped on some road somewhere?They double up (or even triple up) or they renovate and build bigger facilities. :shrug: I dunno. I know the SPCA's got a few who have been there years and they still look happy. Then again, they get a lot of time outside.

~michelle~
August 28th, 2006, 05:19 PM
I think im on the fence with this one. I think there are way to many points to consider and there is no clear answer. I think so long as the dog is adoptable he should be kept alive (provided it is a quality shelter and how full it is) however when there are dogs that have been there for a year or more, it is a vicious cycle. There may be nothing wrong with the dog but then people start to look at it how long it been there and they see its been a year they start to think things like; there must be something wrong with him he;s been here a year. or they think they have lost all of their skills/training because they have been in there a year.
I think shelters need to look at dogs more carefully after they have been there for several months,and do more aggressive publicity to get this dog adopted. Like working with the local new station and have a dog featured once a week, to showcase the dog to generate a new interest in the pooch. If that doesnt work I think trying to find a foster placement, or a breed specific rescue may be more effective or euthanizing the animal maybe the best (but only after every avenue was taken)
I also dont agree with the layout of alot of shelters, (at least the ones in london, they are rows of kennels with constant flow of people) they promote fear in the dog, causing them to jump on their cages and bark, making them appear less adoptable.
Where I adopted logan (out of town) they asked what you were looking for and brought out dogs that suited the description you gave them one at a time. I think that this will discourage people getting a puppy just because its cute without knowing anything about the breed( which causes alot of returns) and they can also show people dogs that may have been looked over in the past (black dogs)
but thats just what i think (i think.... maybe i dont agree with putting them to sleep at all and I'll take them all in ;) )

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Where does the money for all of this renovating and expanding come from? Certainly not from adoptions - numbers show that more animals remain in these shelters their whole lives then get adopted out.

Please don't misunderstand. My heart agrees with you. Having put entire litters of young puppies and kittens to sleep for lack of a home - I would like nothing better then to have a place where they could all live forever. But my mind tells me otherwise.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Where does the money for all of this renovating and expanding come from? Certainly not from adoptions - numbers show that more animals remain in these shelters their whole lives then get adopted out. Fundraisers. :shrug:

Haven't you noticed all the "spaghetti dinners" and things Poodletalk posts?

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 05:22 PM
I'm helping to organize a fundraiser for rottweiler rescue next month. I'll tell you how it goes. I can promise you it will not be enough for this one woman show to function on for 6 months.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 05:28 PM
I can tell you that the shelters here do not double up unless they are from the same home or are a litter of puppies. So if you have a slow week of adoptions and your adoption room is full and your pre adopt room is full oh and don't forget you need to 'save' acouple cages for your investigation dept incase they have to bring an animal in, and you have 4 people leaving messages on the phone stating they need to bring dogs in where do they go? You can't put any to sleep as you are a non-kill shelter, do you turn these people away? Tell them to try another day? The shelters here do not have waiting list for dogs to come in, and yes the dogs do get out acouple times a day by staff and wonderful caring volunteers but what about those days when there are no volunteers to walk the dogs? Staff cannot spend the whole day walking dogs and making sure they get some play outside time, depending on the size of shelter it take X amount of hours just to clean, feed and water let alone a pat here and there. I know if I were that animal I'd rather be pts

I don't think it's weird question being asked by non-newbies, it's just different questions:D

H.P.
August 28th, 2006, 06:50 PM
I know that the no kill shelter here turns people away if they are full, but they do offer options, such as including them on the pet finder page, listed as being fostered, they do require that all be spayed/neutered first, and offer that at low cost. Is it humane? I don't know. Most of the dogs there have seemed happy enough, but they have tons of volunteers, and all the dogs get lots of attention and love.

mama samoan
August 28th, 2006, 07:42 PM
There are no shelters that I would want any of my babies ending up in. In fact I have made family members promise me that if something happens to me and they cant care for them, they are to be euthanized. Think of me what you may but my guys have come to expect life to be a certain way, and they would probably freak out in a cage for basically the rest of their lives. I say that because they would adjust so poorly to the shelter that I dont think anyone would want to adopt them. And I think staff would have a problem with them also. They would be very unhappy, and being that a shelter is where they started out in life, I just couldnt send them back. I go to our shelter quite often to return fosters and that is so hard, because I am not sure just how many, what I consider anyways, good homes are out there.. I know that the shelter does the very best that it can, but NOT for my guys.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 07:45 PM
:thumbs up I hear you mama s. :thumbs up

technodoll
August 28th, 2006, 08:44 PM
this would make very good Poll material. :)

Golden Girls
August 28th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Walking through the SPCA or pound is really hard ... seing all the confined animals to small living spaces and sadly if the rotation isn't fast enough they get euthanized. The fault however doesn't lie with the pound - they must make room hopefully for an adoptable one that will no doubt replace that space. But a no-kill, I couldnt imagine giving myself permission to cage animals for life. Like humans it's not only about breathing ... it's the quality that will make or break you. What kind of hope is this?

poodletalk
August 29th, 2006, 06:23 AM
It's a double edge sword, kill shelters and no-kill shelters are NOT the solution to the problem of over population of animals or why people give them up.

Kill shelters: I don't agree with putting animals to sleep or giving them 3 days to find them homes. But I am very worried about HOW they are getting put to sleep. Is it humane?

Couple of years ago in this Province, a small pound was holding dogs down and shooting them in the head. This cruel practice made media attention and the pound had to put animals to sleep in a more humane manner. In the states, animals are still being put to sleep by gas chambers-which is NOT humane.

No-Kill Shelters: PETA is againest no-kill shelters, I called them up to ask them why? They have investigated no-kill shelters where dogs were stuck in little cages with other dogs. The conditions were filthy, the dogs had minimal amounts to eat. Do I believe in no-kill shelters like that NO!

For any shelter or rescue to run financially well, it takes alot of volunteers and fundraising. It's alot of work, but the reward you get from helping the animals is priceless.

chico2
August 29th, 2006, 07:49 AM
LavenderRott,no this is not going turn in to a nasty thread,we all have our opinions and I respect yours,I don't have to agree.
My experience with shelters is limited to our HS and although I cry every time I leave,I know there are worse alternatives.
In a perfect world,we would need no shelters,PEOPLE would be responsible and care for their animals.
People are the cause of all these miserable animals and I believe the dogs/cats deserve a chance to find someone who really cares,even if it takes 2 or 3 tries.
We have a few examples here of dogs beeing rejected a few times,but with the right owner have changed in to loving pets,it happens:dog:
To me a shelter with a 3-day limit is nothing but a slaughter-house,any dog/cat will be traumatized the first few days in a shelter,3 days is not giving the animal a chance.
CPietras Tess(white kitty),was deemed too old and was set to be killed,until our:angel: took her out of there,only to find a wonderful young cat,now living happily with the rest of her brood.:love:

OntarioGreys
August 29th, 2006, 10:32 AM
There are always going to be difficult dogs to rehome, who wants to play god/judge/executioner and say this one is going to be too hard to adopt so lets put it down, should we put down all dogs with SA, or shyness, deaf, has a limp, has extra toes, needs thyroid meds, need meds for incontinence, has seizures what about adding age in there, like putting down dogs all over the age of 5, or how about if they are black since black dogs are harder to place and lets include males because the majority of people want females, all so there is room for only for faster to move perfect dogs. If we wanted shelters only to have easy to adopt dogs they would be filled only with smaller younger females in perfect health and tempermant and only male puppies 4 months old and younger, because those are the ones that move fast, so we would be able to up the adoption numbers.

Shelters are about giving renewed life to any dog available, not a numbers game.



Beleive it or not there are people looking for the not so perfect dogs, there are people that want only senior dogs or want a deaf dog or maybe their past dog that went to the bridge had a specific health problem and they want to give home to another dog that also has the same problem.

I have seen spooks like my Maya and Callie sit wait for a home for 3 years, I have seen a pair of greyhound father and son (son was going blind and they both ended up at the same kennel and became a bonded pair so the group would only adopt them out together because of the bond and also to help the blinded youngster adjust to a home), it also took 3 years for the right person to come along and love and cherish them

My last 3 dogs I adopted were not the "quote" perfect dogs, Sunny had a broken leg and a split tail, Callie was a senior and a spook, Maya was an extreme spook

My heart set on him, he'd been there almost a year. He was frantic in his cage howling, crying out, jumping... I tried to imagine living like that for almost a year, I had to get him out of that cage. In an interview session, it was explained to me that this dog had separation anxiety and had been returned twice having torn apart his last adopter's home in an anxiety crisis

Ask yourself how you would have felt going back and wanting to adopt only to be told he was euthanize sorry you are too late he was put down yesterday his time ran out,

How would the shelter worker feel if you happen to meet all his needs only to have you come in 1 day, 1 week or 1 month too late for him after you spent care time considering if you could handle his needs and decide you couod handle. Remember the the workers at the shelter also get emotionally attached to the dogs as well, for them it is like killing one of their own dogs

Golden Girls
August 29th, 2006, 12:26 PM
I doubt anyone will say euthanizing is easy ... but when there is just too many animals and not enough homes, what is the answer?

We seen on national tv that this statement will not happen any time soon:

ELILMATE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM AND THE PROBLEM IS ELIMITED

a 3 day hold is not good enough. a 5 day hold is not good enough. What about the ones that have been there for years? We are talking about shelters not sanctuaries. A shelter's mission is the day they accept an animal that walks through their front door ... their obligation is to do everything and anything possible to re-home that said animal. If after a certain amount of time they cannot be placed for one reason or another do you think you are doing that animal a favour by allowing him to just breathe and eat?

Mostly every animal that goes into shelter has lived in a home where they have been petted, loved, walked, ran and played. Caging them is a death sentence - they need human contact.

You have to know what the limit is ... when they just keep coming and coming it explodes. I can't imagine the time it would take to just feed and clean cages in a shelter much less give the animals attention and love that they need on a daily basis.

Because most have already been socialed I'l like to compare it to this. All the ones who think their doing such an angelic favour ... put yourself in a straightjacket in a small room hey I'll even give you windows. Now I'll come and feed you every day, we'll chat and do lunch. But after a week, maybe a month hell a year of this confinement I can guarantee you if you didn't go crazy you'll beg for humanity. IMO it's the same thing!

LibbyP
August 29th, 2006, 01:21 PM
Thank you Golden Girls for your very honest answer, (I) think it is an opinion shared by afew members here:thumbs up

I do not however think that every shelter worker becomes so attached to the animals that it's like putting one of their own down, why do you think sooo many shelter workers have soo many pets? Sometimes workers KNOW this is the most humane thing for the animal, it's not a subject taken lightly, the staff don't just walk in one day and point fingers you, you and you sorry but today is your unlucky day. It's a very thought out process, discussed among staff, management, vet, sometime the board of directors. After all other options have failed.

Prin
August 29th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Because most have already been socialed I'l like to compare it to this. All the ones who think their doing such an angelic favour ... put yourself in a straightjacket in a small room hey I'll even give you windows. Now I'll come and feed you every day, we'll chat and do lunch. But after a week, maybe a month hell a year of this confinement I can guarantee you if you didn't go crazy you'll beg for humanity. IMO it's the same thing!WHy a straightjacket? What shelter puts their dogs in straightjackets?

Prin
August 29th, 2006, 04:20 PM
It just paints a more tortured image than a dog in a kennel, IMO. You put a human in a small room (i.e. kennel) and then you straightjacket too? It's just a flat out exaggeration of the situation and we don't need exaggerations to prove a point in a thread like this either. Exaggerations quickly become propaganda.

Golden Girls
August 29th, 2006, 04:25 PM
Prin I will not reply to your sarcastic question.

comment to Poodletalks post: I too am worried about how some pounds euthanize ... I do not agree with gas chambers nor shooting and it's very sad to know it's still being done this way

Prin
August 29th, 2006, 04:28 PM
Prin I will not reply to your sarcastic question.
It's not sarcastic. I know you have disdain for the no kill shelter here, but I don't think you have to paint such an exaggerated grim picture of it to explain your point.

Puppyluv
August 29th, 2006, 04:36 PM
http://bestsmileys.com/listening/1.gifCan you hear them? I can.. it's the mods closing this thread

LM1313
August 29th, 2006, 04:37 PM
It depends on the animal. My parents' cat would go berserk in even the nicest animal shelter and being in a no-kill shelter for years would just be cruel to her. (Not that we would ever turn her over to a shelter! ;) )

Also, it depends on what's happening to the other animals in the area. What happens if you start a no-kill shelter and you're the only shelter in the area? Unless people in that area start becoming responsible and spaying/neutering and not dumping their pets (which we can always hope for!), you'll eventually run out of room or money or both. So then what happens? Do you start turning animals away? Leaving strays on the streets? Or feeding the animals you have less so you can afford the newcomers? Because at that point a no-kill shelter becomes a very specialized kind of animal hoarding, IMO.

Much as I love the idea of no-kill shelters, but I think in practice most large cities, at least, need at least one euthanizing shelter in order to keep up with the irresponsibility of its citizens. :(

poodletalk
August 29th, 2006, 04:39 PM
comment to Poodletalks post: I too am worried about how some pounds euthanize ... I do not agree with gas chambers nor shooting and it's very sad to know it's still being done this way

I don't understand why this practice is still done? There's nothing humane about it and I am sure it's not cheaper then the proper method.

About the shooting, imagine the type of insurance the pound must have, just in case an employee gets shot accidentally along with the animal.

Golden Girls
August 29th, 2006, 04:44 PM
I'm not saying you should agree on how I feel Prin ... but to me honestly I find caging animals torture. My examples however extreme they might feel to you - that's me, that's all. If we go back/forth this thread will just get closed.

This topic however unpleasant it is, it's reality. So I hope we can just move on ... and gain some other peoples views.