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to cull / or not

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 08:42 AM
Okay here's the (Q) Should reputable breeders cull their in perfect by standards puppies? Is this inhumane or responsible? This is NOT an opinion, it is a simple question, just looking at different views.

LM1313
August 28th, 2006, 09:41 AM
Um . . . why not just spay and neuter them instead? Don't reputable breeders usually have waiting lists and even take deposits on puppies before they're born? So it's not like they wouldn't have homes ready. It's my understanding that only one or two puppies in a litter is likely to be show quality, no matter how great the parents are.

Writing4Fun
August 28th, 2006, 09:43 AM
Sorry, I don't understand the question. :confused:

Do you mean to ask if breeders should be euthanizing puppies who are not up to breed standard?

Absolutely not! A reputable breeder will adopt these puppies out on a very strict spay/neuter contract (better yet, have it spayed/neutered before it is adopted out) and as pet-quality puppies. They key here is that sub-standard dogs should not be allowed to breed. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to live.

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Both of the dogs I grew up with were pure breds from reputable breeders, but neither ended up show quality, our dal was the runt, and had too much ticking, while our belgian started out as top dog, until at 12 weeks, her rear left paw turned in a degree and her gate was no longer perfect, and was thus demoted to pet. In both cases, the purchase price was lower than the show dogs, and there was a strict s/n contract (along with many other clauses). I think this is the way to do it. The dogs get a life, and people who don't want show dogs can still ger purebreds from a reputable breeder.

Angies Man
August 28th, 2006, 12:07 PM
I can't imagine a REPUTABLE Vet participating in "culling". Any Vet who would do such a thing should lose his/her license and ability to prescribe medications and face animal cruelty prosecution.

No intelligent breeder would consider such a thing either. A healthy, but less than show quality puppy can still make a great family pet, companion for a senior citizen, service dog, etc. ;) I would think that a vast majority of breeders are animal lovers--it doesn't look to me like a way to easy riches.

My Angie, who you all know I'm head over heals for, was sold as not show quality (I have her AKC papers, tho) but with no restrictions. Her flaw was a couple of dozen white hairs on her breast and a herniated belly button. She's a great dog, loved and loving. :dog:

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 12:15 PM
My (Q) never stated - healthy - just in perfect:)

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 03:15 PM
Should reputable breeders cull their in perfect by standards puppies? NEVER (unless suffering because of a health issue, of course, but you said healthy)
Is this inhumane or responsible? Inhumane. S/N instead. Just as effective.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 03:29 PM
(Q) What is considered a health issue? I never said healthy

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 03:31 PM
Well, I guess I will be the odd man out and take the flames.

Yes, I think that culling is a perfectly legitimate part of an ethical breeding program.

NOW - BEFORE YOU YELL - PLEASE READ ON!

First off - there would be very little culling of perfectly healthy pups. Usually, imperfections to the standard (issues dealing with bite, coat, coloring, etc.) don't show up right away. Case in point - my dog came from a litter of three. He is the only one who never got a decent coat and they all looked identical when they were pups.

We put to sleep MILLIONS of dogs a year that have no home! How is that different from a breeder culling a litter? Is it less cruel?

Or the thousands of dogs that are chained and abused every year?

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 03:55 PM
Libby, I don't get what point you're trying to make by repeating that you never said healthy.... what are you trying to get at??

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 04:59 PM
(Q) What is considered a health issue? I never said healthy
i.e. a two headed dog... Or maybe a list of the worst health issues all in one dog.

LavenderRott, I think culling as you describe it would be like hiding the evidence. If a breeding pair produces "crap" dogs, stop breeding the pair. Culling just gives them permission to hide that the litters had defects or whatever in them, IMO.

I just don't think that a breeder who really cares about his/her animals would kill them all for defects that don't seriously affect their health.

Then you get into the issue of people breeding double merle shelties that come with a host of problems because of the genes associated with coat color (like deafness and blindness), but they let those live.

Nothing makes sense when humans are given the veto on who lives or dies.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 05:02 PM
What I was getting at is this... members are stating that it is in humane to cull for cosmetic reason different colour hair, height, toes in or out. I never said healthy, does blindness, deafness, missing a limb, heart problems etc.... considered a health consideration? If you test two outstanding pedigrees for genetics can they still have sub standard puppies even though both parents and lineage is normal? I was using 'in perfect' in general, is it better for breeders sell these animals when it was (I thought and members have said) that breeding is to better the breed, would a reputable breeder be proud that he/she has an animal out there from them that is below standards? Word of mouth thing ' Oh yes I purchased the dog from .... ' Other breeders saying WTF that sort of thing. Remember this is just a (Q) and not an opinion:)

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Ok, by "in perfect" do you mean "imperfect"? Because I am utterly confused. And where did members previously say that fogs should be killed for hair colour etc??

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 05:09 PM
LavenderRott, I think culling as you describe it would be like hiding the evidence. If a breeding pair produces "crap" dogs, stop breeding the pair. Culling just gives them permission to hide that the litters had defects or whatever in them, IMO.

I just don't think that a breeder who really cares about his/her animals would kill them all for defects that don't seriously affect their health.



Well, if you think that puppymills don't cull - you are sadly mistaken. Only it is done in a manner that most wouldn't think is even close to humane.

Since the breed that I am most familiar with is rottweilers - we will use them as an example. An ETHICAL breeder that has a litter with - let's say a long haired pup. What would they do?

They would sell that pup on a pet contract with a spay/neuter clause to someone that they trusted implicately to carry this out. They would NOT use that pair of dogs to produce a litter of puppies again.

A puppy with a missing limb or other major deformity should be humanely put down. But that is my humble opinion.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 05:18 PM
Well, if you think that puppymills don't cull - you are sadly mistaken. Only it is done in a manner that most wouldn't think is even close to humane.For puppymills, culling is just the tip of the iceberg.

Ok, we agree. Major health thingy, yes. Superficial defect, no.


I never said healthy, does blindness, deafness, missing a limb, heart problems etc.... considered a health consideration? If you test two outstanding pedigrees for genetics can they still have sub standard puppies even though both parents and lineage is normal?

Yes. There aren't genetic tests for everything (we just don't know enough about DNA), so there are still TONS of issues that can be passed even if things like hip dysplasia are screened out.


I was using 'in perfect' in general, is it better for breeders sell these animals when it was (I thought and members have said) that breeding is to better the breed, would a reputable breeder be proud that he/she has an animal out there from them that is below standards? Word of mouth thing ' Oh yes I purchased the dog from .... ' Other breeders saying WTF that sort of thing. Remember this is just a (Q) and not an opinion:)Most likely, if the breeder and the person with the "defective" puppy have the proper relationship, the person would tell people the dog doesn't fit the breed standard and thus was taken out of the breeding program. :shrug:

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
August 28th, 2006, 05:23 PM
I am absolutely against culling healthy puppies.

My two dogs aren't perfect examples of their breed confirmation wise; Suki (Shiba Inu) is undersized and has a crooked tooth, Hamish is oversized with a snipey muzzle and I am sure that the seal colour is not accepted in his breed (Scottish Terrier), but I wouldn't trade them in for some "perfect" specimen. I think it would be disgusting for any so called reputable breeder to kill puppies because of faults like that. All that is needed to do is to spay/neuter them to make sure their "faults" won't be carried out into any pups they produce (my two dogs are fixed).

If the puppy is born without it's stomach or something REALLY serious like that, then yes, it is humane to euthanize. Dogs can live perfectly fine with a missing limb, blindness, deafness.

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 05:29 PM
Dogs can live perfectly fine with missing limbs, blindness, deafness.

And yet perfectly healthy purebred dogs are euthanized in our shelters every single year for lack of a home.

While I would not euthanize a dog that I had had for years if it went blind, lost it's hearing or lost a leg for one reason or another - I do honestly believe that to nurture puppies with serious defects while so many dogs with no health issues at all are euthanized is wrong.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 05:33 PM
I guess it's a case by case thing for me. If a dog is missing limbs but has no other issues and manages fine without the limbs, then ok. But if the dog is missing limbs and has a bunch of other issues resulting from genetic weakness, not so sure. I guess for me, it depends if the dog can lead a good life.

As for killing them because there are too many healty ones dying- it's not the puppies' fault. Why kill an innocent animal that YOU chose to bring into this world? The problem lies with the choice you made to breed in the first place, and that's where the laws and regulations SHOULD be working, but aren't.

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 05:33 PM
You give birth to a child with a club foot and downs syndrome, do you "cull" it?

~michelle~
August 28th, 2006, 05:34 PM
hmmm i may be off the mark here but i heard something about dalmation breeders in the states having to put deaf puppies down or the can loose some sort of crediation? (i have no IDEA if this is true) which i think is unacceptable. I am actually looking to adopt a deaf or blind dog that would suit my situaltion and i think that there are many people like me who do this.
I also remember I had a lhasa apso and she had "pigeon toes" and she had a bit of an underbite, but she had so much personality and we loved her sooo much we couldnt imagine not having had her in our lives. she was a perfect pet, which I think is the best thing a dog can be :)
I think that anything that may cause the dog pain or suffering should be put down but if not give them a chance to find a home and be loved:)

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 05:36 PM
You give birth to a child with a club foot and downs syndrome, do you "cull" it?
I'm not having kids ever, so I'm not the right person to answer that.

Puppyluv
August 28th, 2006, 05:40 PM
I'm not having kids ever, so I'm not the right person to answer that.
It wasn't really directed at you, as you already said you were against culling, save for severe genetic defects (2 heads etc)
Almost everyone on here thinks of their pets as children (myslef included) but I would be very interested to hear if pro-cullers would put their disabled children to sleep.

~michelle~
August 28th, 2006, 05:41 PM
I agree with puppyluv!!! you wouldnt dismiss your child because of an "abnormality"

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 05:49 PM
You give birth to a child with a club foot and downs syndrome, do you "cull" it?

That is part of the problem, right there.

While I love my dog just as much as Prin loves Boo and Jemma, he is a dog - not a human child.

Oh, and by the way - I almost had to make that decision with my son. I can promise you that it was much more then a club foot and Down's syndrome. And yes, because he would have had no quality of life, I was ready to do what was best for him - not me. Through the Grace of God - he was born happy and healthy.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 05:49 PM
Okay now: in perfect/imperfect from now on I'll use the term sub-standard, now your just picking the (Q) and (A) apart. Don't shoot the questioner Puppyluv, it's not nice;) and I know nothing about fogs should be killed for their hair colour:eek:

Dragonfly
August 28th, 2006, 05:54 PM
This is an interesting debate but I can promise you that if it gets ugly it will get locked. We are watching.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 05:58 PM
While I love my dog just as much as Prin loves Boo and Jemma, he is a dog - not a human child.Then you don't love your doggy as much as I do.;)
(or at least not in the same way ;))

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 06:07 PM
I think this is getting alittle:offtopic: maybe I should sum it up like this: the majority is a no vote to culling for sub-standard animals ie being: coat colour, toes in/out, short/tall, fat/thin, but if it has major health issues it's still a no vote as you can just s/n?

LM1313
August 28th, 2006, 06:13 PM
According to the Dalmation Club of America . . .

A dog lacks the power of reason and the ability to read a situation and react accordingly. A startled animal lashes out in an instantaneous reflex reaction. A deaf dog is continually startled, especially when asleep. Too many children have faced the plastic surgeon's knife after innocently touching a sleeping, deaf dog... a dog which in every other way was the most perfect pet imaginable. DEAF DOGS ARE POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS.
Also,

Do not adopt a completely deaf dog even if it is given to you, as you will be letting yourself in for a lot of work and probable heartbreak: work, because the dog cannot hear you, and for all but the most experienced handlers is rendered untrainable; probable heartbreak, because if the dog ever escapes from you, he cannot hear traffic. You can conclude the ending. The deaf dog leads a sadly neurotic life, as every hand on his fur or step on the floor startles him because he cannot hear. Most deaf dogs become so fearful and timid that they must be put to sleep anyway; it is better to do so right after the BAER test proves the dog deaf, before a family is attached to the dog. Should you somehow procure a deaf Dalmatian, the breeder is obliged, by any code of ethics, to replace the puppy with a hearing one or to refund your money and take the dog back.


I mentioned this in a few threads . . . I find it very confusing because there's a dalmation near me on Petfinder who is a deaf adult, but perfectly friendly according to his profile. I also know a couple who adopted a deaf dalmation puppy (older puppy, I think over six months) and had no problems with fearfulness or aggressiveness . . . Also, here is a website featuring a perfectly happy, well-adjusted deaf dalmation . . . http://www.uglx.org/romey

So I question that accuracy of the Dalmation Club's statement. I do not feel that deafness is a cause for culling. They should, of course, be spayed and neutered.


Culling because a dog doesn't fit the breed standard exactly would be even sillier. "Oh my gosh, you have a white blaze down your nose! Sorry, that means you have to die." "You're gait is all wrong! DEATH!"

Frankly, I think too much slavish devotion to breed standards can be detrimental to a breed, resulting in an animal that's a bizarrely exaggerated version of whatever it started out as . . . minus the intensity of instincts that made it excel at it's original job. (This seems to happen with sporting dogs a lot.) I don't know what the solution is, since NO breed standard would only encourage BYBs and make it hard to tell the difference between them and reputable breeders. *shrugs* But it's definitely a problem.

If an animal is deformed in such a way that it severely affects his enjoyment of life then, yes, he should be humanely put to sleep. I'll give you an example. Siamese show-cats are encouraged to have "exotic" faces and bodies. They look very elongated compared to most cats. That's fine. Except when the quest for the "exotic" face results in a kitten with eyes that are on opposite sides of its head as opposed to both eyes facing forward. Someone had a litter like this and the kittens all died when they were old enough to open their eyes because cats are not made to be able to see like that. I'm not sure of the exact cause of death--possibly stress?--but surely it would've been kinder to put those kittens to sleep the day they were born.

LavenderRott
August 28th, 2006, 06:18 PM
Then you don't love your doggy as much as I do.;)
(or at least not in the same way ;))

I promise you, Prin, I do. But I have human children too.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 06:26 PM
LM, I'd prefer this as a resource on deaf dogs:
http://www.deafdogs.org/

LR, Can any two people love exactly the same way?
All I'm trying to say is I consider my dogs to be persons and as such I give them the same consideration I would give a child, if I had one.

Writing4Fun
August 28th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Libby, I don't think anyone was 'picking' apart the Q & A. It's just that "in perfect" could be taken to mean "in perfect condition", which is completely different from "imperfect", so I understand the confusion. :pawprint:

Golden Girls
August 28th, 2006, 07:07 PM
I have both and I cannot compare the love for my son to my dogs. I just know I would never ever euthanize my dogs nor do I think any animals should die for imperfections. I don't like this topic but I'll answer anyway.

A breeder has a responsibility if not perfect ... at least give it a chance to live a good life other then their purpose ... to breed, to show etc :shrug:

Breeders and puppy mills do but only because they can't or no longer can make a profit ... so that of course is not surprising. Most pounds have no choice being overloaded but only because of breeders/byb/puppy mills, so again not surprising. Is it right, of course not!

Naturally if the animal is suffering and there is no alternative ... as long as it's in the best interest of the animal then of course humane euthanization should be done.

To me all animals are persons and should be given as equal consideration as a a human being.

so NO vote for culling for sub-standard.

Writing4Fun
August 28th, 2006, 07:11 PM
LR, Can any two people love exactly the same way?
All I'm trying to say is I consider my dogs to be persons and as such I give them the same consideration I would give a child, if I had one.
Prin, I'm not trying to say that I love my dog as much as you do. But I've been there. Murphy :angel: was my 'first born'. At the time, I believed that I loved her as much as my siblings loved their skin babies. Once I had children of my own, I realized how different the love I have for my children is compared to my love for my dog. I love my dog, but my children are my life - literally.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 07:14 PM
I know W4F, I was just making a funny;) word of the day sub-standard:D, yes I have to agree having both animals and children there is a difference, I would lay down and die for them at a drop of a dime.

mona_b
August 28th, 2006, 07:25 PM
I definately do not agree with it if there are minor faults...And dogs have lived happy healthy lives when they have either been born or have lost a limb.

There are two dogs( a Lab and a mixed breed)who have only 3 legs.And I tell you,they get along well with 3.You should see them go after a ball....:D

As for deafness,my cat is deaf.He was born that way.He is pure white with ice blue eyes.This is something the SPCA did not notice.He was 8 weeks old when I adopted him.And I realized he was deaf at about 10 weeks.I wouldn't have dreamed of having him put down because of this.I did have people tell me I should bring him back...:evil:

You give birth to a child with a club foot do you "cull" it?

My daughter was born with a Club Foot....She's a beautiful 19 year old....;)

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Prin, I'm not trying to say that I love my dog as much as you do. But I've been there. Murphy :angel: was my 'first born'. At the time, I believed that I loved her as much as my siblings loved their skin babies. Once I had children of my own, I realized how different the love I have for my children is compared to my love for my dog. I love my dog, but my children are my life - literally.
I guess I will never know because these are the only babies I will ever have.:shrug:

Writing4Fun
August 28th, 2006, 07:59 PM
LOL! Yeah, that's what I used to say, too, Prin. ;) I've since learned a very valuable lesson - never say 'never'! :D

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Never. :D I haven't wanted kids since before I was a kid. Everytime I reconsider it, I get nauseous and disgusted.:shrug: I don't like kids and I'm not healthy enough to perpetuate the human race.

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 08:10 PM
Never. :D I haven't wanted kids since before I was a kid. Everytime I reconsider it, I get nauseous and disgusted.:shrug: I don't like kids and I'm not healthy enough to perpetuate the human race.


Now that's funny, you get nauseous and disgusted before you have kids, just imagine how you feel while preggers and after the little baggers are here:D ;)

Frenchy
August 28th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Never. :D I haven't wanted kids since before I was a kid. Everytime I reconsider it, I get nauseous and disgusted.:shrug: I don't like kids and I'm not healthy enough to perpetuate the human race.
When my sister's kids were babies,I always tought they smelled like sour milk,how awful am I ? And at 36 yr old,I neveer changed a diaper in my life :eek:

technodoll
August 28th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Never. I haven't wanted kids since before I was a kid. Everytime I reconsider it, I get nauseous and disgusted. I don't like kids and I'm not healthy enough to perpetuate the human race.

goodness! words straight out of my mouth :thumbs up

i do not agree with "culling" puppies from a litter, except if they have severe physical or mental anomalies that would prevent them from living a normal life (too many good, healthy dogs out there who need homes, why add to the misery). i'll just leave it at that. ;)

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Now that's funny, you get nauseous and disgusted before you have kids, just imagine how you feel while preggers and after the little baggers are here:D ;)
Yeah, and I'm afraid of puke and saliva too. :crazy:

technodoll
August 28th, 2006, 08:17 PM
Yeah, and I'm afraid of puke and saliva too.

and toothpaste froth! LOL

sorry... :offtopic: :o :rolleyes:

Writing4Fun
August 28th, 2006, 08:27 PM
LOL! My sister's neighbour is the WORST suck when it comes to puke and poop and that kind of stuff ... she went on to have 4 kids of her own, plus she babysits a bunch of others. :D :crazy: Talk about a glutton for punishment! :p

Frenchy, I was 30 before I changed my first diaper - and that was only because it was my own child so I had to. :yuck:

Again, sorry for going :offtopic: :o

LibbyP
August 28th, 2006, 08:41 PM
OH my Goodness this is so far :offtopic: but it kills me, when I was preggers with my first and who am I kidding with my second as well,I do not do puke. Being preggers I puked 24/7 all the way through and brushing me teeth, was a nightmare as the foam from the toothpaste made me puke even more so there you go a double wammie:yuck: I still don't do it, it's hubby's job, but I have to say I have cleaned it up twice this summer and I only gagged acouple times (putting a big wad of vicks under your nose does wonders:o ) Oh ya to those people who say 'once it's your own you'll change - you lied back to the topic:D

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 08:45 PM
Semi-back on topic.

If I was a dog, my good breeder wouldn't breed me. With thyroid issues, premature arthritis, and a hernia among other things, NO ethical breeder would breed me. So why should I let myself breed?

LM1313
August 28th, 2006, 11:52 PM
LOL! Yeah, that's what I used to say, too, Prin. ;) I've since learned a very valuable lesson - never say 'never'! :D

Nothing personal, Writing, but I come across that attitude a lot and it always annoys me. :evil: To quote someone on a different board, "Why is it people take a ten year old seriously when she says she wants four kids but not a twenty-five year old who says she wants none?" :rolleyes:

*imagines* "I know you think you want kids NOW, Susie, but I'll bet you'll end up hating them once you have kids of your own!"

MyBirdIsEvil
August 29th, 2006, 01:22 AM
LOL! Yeah, that's what I used to say, too, Prin. I've since learned a very valuable lesson - never say 'never'!

:offtopic: I hate when people say that. I'm an only child, I've hated children my whole life, I rarely even associate with my family members children because they annoy me. And then everyone tries to pull that "biological clock" crap on me. I've known several people that are now in their 50's who didn't have children because they DIDN'T WANT children. My aunts only had children because they accidentally got knocked up and then soon after they had their tubes tied because they didn't want more. My parents, same thing, they had me on accident and NEVER wanted more kids. Not everyone cares about having children.

Slightly unrelated comment: Know how your animals will chase laser pointers? So will 3 year old children in restaurants. Muahahaha! Makes the parents think their kid is nuts when you keep turning it off as soon as they look and they think their kids are chasing invisible objects.
Proof that dogs are just as smart and amusing as kids; and no diapers to change!

*imagines* "I know you think you want kids NOW, Susie, but I'll bet you'll end up hating them once you have kids of your own!"

Sounds like something I'd say.

MyBirdIsEvil
August 29th, 2006, 01:30 AM
Back on topic, no reputable breeders should be culling puppies.
IMO if puppies are coming out with genetic defects ALL of that litter should be fixed and never bred. The only reason to cull puppies is to either hide that some of the puppies had defects, or to keep some or all of the puppies from breeding.
You can keep dogs from breeding by getting them fixed, there's no reason to kill them. If you can't afford to get them fixed or you can't find people to adopt them out to then I guess you're not a reputable breeder, so that would kill the original question.
Actually it's kind of a loaded question: If you're reputable you probably wouldn't be culling puppies.

OntarioGreys
August 29th, 2006, 07:22 AM
I agreee with culling if the defect will causing the animal a slow death or low quality of life, deafeness to me is not one of those reasons, there is no reason it can't be placed out as a good pet but the breeder has the responsibility of finding a suitable home for its needs, in the example with the deaf dalmation, startling should be expected, so a suitable home is one without young children.

A deaf dog is continually startled, especially when asleep. Too many children have faced the plastic surgeon's knife after innocently touching a sleeping, deaf dog... a dog which in every other way was the most perfect pet imaginable. DEAF DOGS ARE POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS.

What a stupid statement

Touching any sleeping dog is very dangerous.


Even a hearing dogs can be startled when sleeping, if you allow your children to approach a dog that is sleeping than that is an issue with irresponsible parenting, every parent that has a dog should be teaching their children that the dog should be left alone when it is on their bed or asleep, there is a reason why the number one major injury to children in North America is dog bites mostly by the family dog or a dog they know well, and if the Dalmation Club puts out statements like that they are being irresponsible as well and contributing to the dog bite statistics by making it sound like it is acceptable to allow children to bother sleeping dogs.

Furbaby Momma
August 29th, 2006, 09:33 AM
I am thinking most people that have contacted a reputable breeder to own one of their pups and was told that "oh yes we have pups but the batch of pups we have are...blind or deaf or have a limb missing we are selling them at a reduced price and they need to be S/N, do you want a female or a male?" I am thinking that most of the people will say no thanks, not interested...so then the breeder will probably euthanize these poor puppies because they don't want them either. There are only a handful of people that would want to buy or adopt an animal that has challenges.

I have a blind cat that nobody wanted to adopt, and I love him dearly but so many people ignorantly said to me why did you adopt a blind cat it should of been put to sleep, you should of adopted a healthy cat. I was so sad to hear people say this but even more sad knowing that this was a reality knowing that an "imperfect" animal is sadly not really wanted and thought of in this way.

Writing4Fun
August 29th, 2006, 10:51 AM
Nothing personal, Writing, but I come across that attitude a lot and it always annoys me. :evil: To quote someone on a different board, "Why is it people take a ten year old seriously when she says she wants four kids but not a twenty-five year old who says she wants none?" :rolleyes: Because when I was 25, I was saying that I never want children, hated kids, was uncomfortable around them, etc... I loved my independence, couldn't understand why anyone would choose to be saddled with kids. I'm not saying that every woman winds up wanting kids. I'm just saying don't be surprised if you do some years down the line.

happycats
August 29th, 2006, 10:53 AM
personally I think breeders should be culled, there is way to many of them out there!!;)

technodoll
August 29th, 2006, 10:56 AM
Because when I was 25, I was saying that I never want children, hated kids, was uncomfortable around them, etc... I loved my independence, couldn't understand why anyone would choose to be saddled with kids. I'm not saying that every woman winds up wanting kids. I'm just saying don't be surprised if you do some years down the line.

ever since i was 5 years old, i said i did not want kids. i would put dolls in the trash and go play with my tonka trucks. never understood barbies :D i'll be 37 this winter and guess what? still hate kids as much as ever and will never have 'em! :thumbs up My family & friends gave up years ago telling me "never say never" - thank god. they now finally understand my dogs are my kids and that's the end of that. :queen:

LavenderRott
August 29th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Well, an ETHICAL breeder wouldn't have a whole litter of puppies or kittens with major defects such as you mention. They do their homework as far as genetics and lineage before they put their dogs together.

While I understand that blind, deaf, and three legged dogs live long, healthy, happy lives - I also understand that millions of animals that hear, see and have four working legs are euthanized every year in North America for no other reason than that they are homeless.

Pike
August 29th, 2006, 11:04 AM
Please curb any potentially threatening statements; they are not appropriate for an all-ages site.

OntarioGreys
August 29th, 2006, 11:05 AM
I am thinking most people that have contacted a reputable breeder to own one of their pups and was told that "oh yes we have pups but the batch of pups we have are...blind or deaf or have a limb missing we are selling them at a reduced price and they need to be S/N, do you want a female or a male?" I am thinking that most of the people will say no thanks, not interested...so then the breeder will probably euthanize these poor puppies because they don't want them either. There are only a handful of people that would want to buy or adopt an animal that has challenges.

I have a blind cat that nobody wanted to adopt, and I love him dearly but so many people ignorantly said to me why did you adopt a blind cat it should of been put to sleep, you should of adopted a healthy cat. I was so sad to hear people say this but even more sad knowing that this was a reality knowing that an "imperfect" animal is sadly not really wanted and thought of in this way.


But you wanted that kitten did you not, it was not forced on you, some breeders also do rescues

Here is a Chinese recue breeder who placed a rescue that walked only in circles and could not walk straight
http://www.crestars.com/rescues_1.htm

the second dog had severe skin problems


and here is her current rescue that she is looking for a home for named Sparky

http://www.crestars.com/pictures/rescues/sparky_7.jpg

Many when they end the breeding pairs will adopt them out, some will be seniors at the time, they rarely have trouble finding homes for them

I have seen other breeders who have found homes for less than perfect dogs including tripods and blind and deaf dogs.

My first breeder dog was a cocker he had eyelid problems and an automimmune disease, not every dog a breeder has from a litter is going to be perfect, no matter how well the breeding was planned.

Some breeders will make use of breed rescues for pups to help find homes for them if they have special needs and offer money for its care as sometimes it is easier to rehome through a rescue instead since most people using breeders and looking for perfect pups, where a person that is looking for a special need dog will search rescues instead

OntarioGreys
August 29th, 2006, 11:11 AM
personally I think breeders should be culled, there is way to many of them out there!!;)

Only the BYB and mills please, when I want a healthy puppy of a certain breed I prefer to go to a breeder, so I know what I am getting and know I am not going to be spending 5 or 6 thousand for hip surgery

LibbyP
August 29th, 2006, 11:32 AM
Many when they end the breeding pairs will adopt them out, some will be seniors at the time, they rarely have trouble finding homes for them

I have seen other breeders who have found homes for less than perfect dogs including tripods and blind and deaf dogs.

not every dog a breeder has from a litter is going to be perfect, no matter how well the breeding was planned.

Some breeders will make use of breed rescues for pups to help find homes for them if they have special needs and offer money for its care as sometimes it is easier to rehome through a rescue instead since most people using breeders and looking for perfect pups, where a person that is looking for a special need dog will search rescues instead


I like the thought of this OG, exception with internal health issues. But what happens when all the breed specific rescues are full? Shelters and HS?

LM1313
August 29th, 2006, 02:40 PM
not every dog a breeder has from a litter is going to be perfect, no matter how well the breeding was planned.

Very true . . . Dogs can pass along recessive genes for many generations, so even a reputable breeder can get a nasty surprise.

But a lot of things that make puppies ineligible for the show ring aren't life-threatening, like a long-haired coat instead of a short one.

Furbaby Momma
August 29th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Ontario Grey's it was a pleasure to adopt him.

Yes you are right that Breeders also do rescue and that is wonderful, I have the upmost respect for these types of breeders and these are the breeders people should buy pups/retired sire or bitch/and seniors from because they obviously care about the breed.
There might sometimes be a defect in a puppy or kitten it is by no means a reason to kill them IMO, only if the defect was life threatening then the sweet animal would need to be put to sleep.
The picture of Sparky is melting my heart that little sweetie will make someone very happy I am sure, the breeder looks like she truly cares about the breed.

Golden Girls
August 29th, 2006, 03:46 PM
personally I think breeders should be culled, there is way to many of them out there!!;)I agree. Some people may know reputable breeders I'm not disputing that but many many people think they bought from a good breeder when in fact their just BYB's with good advertising and a great "show-home" so those r the ones' I'd like to see culled.

White Wolf
August 29th, 2006, 03:50 PM
This thread has run its course and will now be closed. A mod issued a warning and it was not respected.