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New and confused!

SuperWanda
August 25th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Hi, I am new to this forum and am also new to reading dog food labels and so my brain is spinning. :confused:

I have 2 dogs - one 5 year old siberian husky mix who suffers with feet and flank chewing/hair loss and anal gland troubles. 63lbs.

My other dog is 7 and is a husky/race hound mix who has always had a very sensitive stomach - too many trips to the vet with vomiting problems. 53lbs.

After reading a lot of information here and everywhere I have learnt that the Eukanuba senior lrg. breed formula is a bad choice so I am currently trying the Eagle Pack Fish and Oatmeal. The dog with the allergies seems to like it, the other isn't too sure. I also have a small bag of solid gold hund-n-flocken and wolf king.

I have become totally obsessed with finding the perfect food and have worries and questions about these brands:

1) Is there too much salt in the EaglePack? Noticed it was in the middle of the ingredient list.
2) Why are some people concerned about oatmeal in dog foods?
3) Is there enough protein in the solid gold - somewhere I read that you have to add all this extra stuff and that you have to feed so much to your dog to prevent weight loss.
4) What about the probiotic thing in Eagle Pack - some say that it doesn't make a difference to add probiotics if they are just killed in the cooking process.
5)Is it safe to add aspergillus to the Eagle Pack? I know they use it as a probiotic but just don't know the science behind it.
6)Is egg in pet foods an allergen?
7)Is the Go! Natural Salmon and Oatmeal just as good as Eagle Pack?
8)Solid Gold doesn't like sunflower oil, but other companies say canola oil is not as good as sunflower.

I'm sure I have more question than this but I've probably asked too many for one post already!

If anyone can offer any help to a few or all of these questions I would really appreciate it!

technodoll
August 25th, 2006, 01:57 PM
hello and welcome to the forum! it's the best on the net :thumbs up i'll let prin and ontariogreys (and any others!) jump in and answer your questions below, they're the dry foods experts (i hang out more on the natural feeding side of things). but you're on the right track, just gotta keep moving forwards and expect to see positive changes in your dogs soon, not overnight though, you must be patient & consistent in your feeding program... and ask all the questions you want. would love to see photos of your doggies too!

:dog:

SuperWanda
August 25th, 2006, 02:24 PM
Thanks for the welcome - here is the 7 year old husky/hound mix:

meb999
August 25th, 2006, 02:24 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Eagle Pack...not only because of the salt, but also the dried beet pulp. I don't think a super premium hollistic food should have beet pulp in it. It has little or no nutritional value, it's a by-product of sugar manufacturing and it's a cheap stool hardener. Other than that, I'll let the food gurus answer your questions!!

Oh! Welcome to the forum! And don't be shy to post more questions and I agree with techno, some pics would be nice!

SuperWanda
August 25th, 2006, 02:25 PM
This is our other 5 year old who loves the snow:

SuperWanda
August 25th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Just a few more... from a proud parent:

SuperWanda
August 25th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Last one...

phoenix
August 25th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Hi, Great questions! I don't know the answers to all of them, but here's a few points:



I have become totally obsessed with finding the perfect food and have worries and questions about these brands:


Sadly, there is no such thing. There is probably the best food for your dog (not even necessarily for your dogS. Thank goodness I haven't had to deal with allergic puppies, but feeding is very personal to each dog... some do well on one food, others don't.
I'd say you are on the right track, give your dogs 3-4 months to adjust (maybe more) before you decide a food isn't right. (unless he's allergic to something in the food of course). Try and choose a food with very few different carb sources or different protein sources to eliminate the allergen. Foods like SG wolf king or Dick Van Patton's fish and potato seem good.

1) Is there too much salt in the EaglePack? Noticed it was in the middle of the ingredient list.

I also haven't been impressed by this food as MEB said.


4) What about the probiotic thing in Eagle Pack - some say that it doesn't make a difference to add probiotics if they are just killed in the cooking process.

You're right, if the pb's were added before cooking. However, if they are added after cooking, they would be viable. I still feed a yogurt with living cultures to my dogs anyway.


5)Is it safe to add aspergillus to the Eagle Pack? I know they use it as a probiotic but just don't know the science behind it.

Aspergillus is a fungus. There are many types, some are pathenogenic (disease causing). Others are used as food additives (like in soy sauce).

I had to look this up: https://fungalgenomics.concordia.ca/fungi/Anig.php
says that A. niger and A. oryzae are considered safe by the FDA. Interestingly, another Aspergillus species is responsible for the formation of aflatoxins, the carcinogen that caused the poison of some dogs through dog food made by Diamond.

6)Is egg in pet foods an allergen?

Yes. Anything is really a potential allergen. An allergen is anything that your body recognizes as foreign material that it thinks it should attack, but that most people/animals don't have a reaction to. Even light can be an allergen. So it depends; is your dog allergic to eggs on their own?

8)Solid Gold doesn't like sunflower oil, but other companies say canola oil is not as good as sunflower.

Check out this discussion we had another time,

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=24324&highlight=sunflower+oil+canola

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 04:50 PM
My turn! :D

1) Not a fan of eagle pack. They're at the bottom of the holistic list, along with Nutro. A lot of their formulas also have corn (on top of the beet pulp), which is not something we want in a holistic food that we pay top dollar for.

2) No idea. Oatmeal is a fast fiber (meaning it moves things along), and IMO, it's ok.

3) You can add the Solid Gold Sea Meal (multivitamin powder) to any food, but it's not necessary. The only one that needs extra stuff is the "holistic blendz" one. The protein in that one is too low. I'm not a huge fan of the HundnFlocken though. I think the Wolf King is a much better food (what I feed my beasties).

4) and 5) probiotics in dog food are a gimmick for the most part. When they test the foods, even if the probiotics are sprayed on after, there usually aren't enough to do anything. You're better off buying probiotics separately. When you buy them, make sure they are from the fridge. Also, you don't want aspergillus. You do want lactobacillus acidophilus among others...

I give my doggies this one once in a while: http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/usa/products/TGU9.asp?CategoryID=108&ImageFlag=1#61958
but plain yogurt is ok too.

6) anything can be an allergen, depending on the dog. More often though, it's corn, wheat, soy or chicken.

7) can you post a link to the salmon and oatmeal go natural? I only see the chicken one on their website. Or just post the first 10 or so ingredients if you have them...

8) First, don't listen to what food companies say about ingredients... :D Second, sunflower is good, but you should have a specific fish oil (like salmon oil) or flaxseed/flaxseed oil to boost up the omega-3 ratio. Sunflower is really high in omega-6, and you need omega-3's to balance it out. The only really bad fat out there is "animal fat". If it doesn't say what animal, don't buy it. If it says "chicken fat", that's fine.

For dogs with allergies, I'd start with a fishy food, like Wolf King or DVP's Natural Balance Sweet potato and fish and move from there.:)

technodoll
August 25th, 2006, 05:00 PM
i found this:

Go! Natural Salmon & Oatmeal Formula

Ingredients:

Salmon Meal, Salmon, Oatmeal, Whole Oats, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols [Vitamin E], Citric Acid [Vitamin C] and Rosemary extract), Oat Fiber, Inulin (FOS), Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Yeast Culture, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), dl Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, **Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide,

Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, **Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, **Manganese Proteinate, Riboflavin, Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Menadione Sodium Bisulphate Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12.

** These items are chelated minerals.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein - (min) - 22.00%

Crude Fat - (min) - 12.00%

Crude Fiber - (max) - 3.80%

Moisture - (min) - 10.00%

Omega 6 Fatty Acids - 2.75%

Omega 3 Fatty Acids - 0.30%

Vitamin E - (min) - 200 IU/kg

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Where?! Thanks.

Salmon Meal, Salmon, Oatmeal, Whole Oats, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols [Vitamin E], Citric Acid [Vitamin C] and Rosemary extract), Oat Fiber, Inulin (FOS), Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Yeast Culture, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), dl Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, **Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide,

So most likely, there are more oats in the food than salmon... Hmm... Seems to me this food is very likely to cause bloat. I mean from what I've read, they say that if the fat is before the 4th ingredient, it's likely to cause bloat (which in this case is actually after ingredient #2, when you put parts back together). Plus it's got the citric acid in there (can cause bloat, especially if the food is moistened). Plus it's got yeast cultures, which ferment and produce even more gas...

I dunno about that one. :eek: Not for big dogs, or even little dogs with deep chests, IMO.

Bloat link: http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm#Breeds%20At%20Greatest%20Riskou

technodoll
August 25th, 2006, 05:12 PM
here :) http://www.petacular.com/products/Go-Natural-Dog-8.html

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Silly me, looking for it directly from the company.:rolleyes:

SuperWanda
August 25th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Great information - thanks to everyone!

I still have a few more questions:

1) Understanding that common allergies may be wheat, corn, chicken, soy. Could I try a duck, venison or lamb formula? Why is fish always recommended?

2) Is that chronic wasting disease in deer really a concern when companies like Natural Balance and Wellness use farmed New Zealand venison? In my solid gold pamphlet it says they don’t use venison because the disease cannot be cooked out and they don’t use ducks for fear of bird flu. Are they just trying to reduce any chance that these diseases will enter into the food chain?

3) Is millet similar to corn? On the naturapet.com site they have a comparison wizard which said that “The carbohydrate content in millet is not as biologically available to animals as other grains. Instead of millet, Natura uses only whole grains such as barley, oats and rice which are quality sources of carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals.”

4) Is bison in the solid gold wolf king good for the dog with the sensitive stomach? Is it as digestible as fish? What about the protein content for a 7 year old dog (apparently a senior now :sad: )

5) On the petcurean.com site - the one who makes the Go! Natural salmon and oatmeal they say that that line of food contains 42% meat inclusion - does that make a difference relative to the oat content?

I guess I do need to chill out on what opinions every company has on ingredients - they are competing! I can't tell you how many times I've read claims that such and such a formula is the best in the world!

RaYne
August 26th, 2006, 02:09 PM
I hear that! They all say they are the best.

To be honest I can pick apart and find something that 'I' don't like in most of the kibbles out there. I am super picky. So picky that I annoy the girls at the pet food store. :D

My Saint has possible IBS and allergies to boot. The only food he can eat is the Eagle Pack Fish and Oatmeal. I'm not too much for the added salt or beet pulp either. But it's either that he loses weight and goes to the vet to treat bloody diarrhea on a regular basis. Not fun at all. :( Honestly there are worse things than beet pulp.. Menadione comes to mind.

When you say your pup has a sensitive tummy.. Do you mean loose stool/diarrhea, vomiting?

I can't really say too much about Solid Gold.. but I did try Wolfcub/Wolfking. In my pups case the Bison was just too rich for him. But the IBS was probably coming into play there.

OntarioGreys
August 26th, 2006, 03:30 PM
1. fish is high in omega fats which is beneficial to coat and skin health, only concern these days is where the fish is sourced from, inland lakes in North America the fish will contain a lot of cancer causing pollutants, for humans it is reccommended in low polluted lakes not to eat fish more than twice a month, for dogs that eat fish day after day in the kibble they eat, it should be something to worried about if the fish is from the ocean it is safer, is it safe to eat everyday? I simply don't know.

I don't know about chicken being all that common, wheat, corn and soy is the most common allergans, though a dog could be perfect fine with corn and be highly allergic to chicken or beef, there is no way to predict what a dog will be allergic to without allergy testing everything under the sun.

2. There is potential risks in almost anything
beef lamb deer could have mad cow disease any poultry product could have bird flu, any grain could contain toxic fungus whether it be food for animal or human consumption, or water we drink, you just have to trust that inspectors are doing their job properly.

3. Millet is simply a grain source, most grains are not overly digestable by dogs, oatmeal I have not heard anything bad about it tends to be low allergy

4, If a meat does not agree with a dog it is not going to be highly digestable, sometimes all you can do is try different foods. Bison is much like beef, the greyhound tracks use beef over poultry as it tends to agree with more dogs. The husky is a native of the north and their traditinal diet was fish, so they are probably better suited to a fish diet that a dog whose origin are from the desert as their bodies had to change to adapt to their environments, though a husky should be fine on a red meat diet as well since part of the food would have consisted of hare and caribou and elk.

Older dogs require a higher meat protein content than adult dogs
from the purina canada website
The Geriatric Dog
Nutritional research has shown that healthy older dogs need more protein than young adult dogs - as much as 50 percent more. The additional protein is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein reserves and support protein turnover, which are important in helping the dog's immune system function at its full capacity. Dogs that do not receive adequate protein are more susceptible to stress, such as injury or infection.

Dottie Laflamme, D.V.M., Ph.D., a Ralston Research Fellow, says, "It is important to provide older dogs with enough protein to help them fight the stress of aging, including injury and infection. Dogs fed inadequate amounts of protein may appear healthy, but may be less able to resist infection or fight off other diseases."

Despite this research, there has been a longstanding concern that excessive protein in diets for older dogs may cause kidney damage. The link is traced to clinical signs in dogs with kidney failure that relate to a buildup of byproducts from protein metabolism. However, research conducted during the past decade has shown that protein does not harm the kidneys.

Research first supporting the link between excessive protein and kidney disease was conducted in the 1920s, showing that male rodents exhibited progressive renal disease when fed a high-protein diet. 1 Another study on rodents, conducted in 1982 by B.M. Brenner, also showed that excess dietary protein caused kidney damage. 2 Though these studies were correct in rats, the results unfortunately were extrapolated to other species.

In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. 3

Delmar R. Finco, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at the University of Georgia, says, "Our work was directed at learning whether a high-protein diet damages the kidney. After four years' studying geriatric dogs and two years' studying dogs with chronic renal failure, we found no indication that a high-protein diet was injurious to the kidney. However, the data did raise the question whether low-protein diets in geriatric dogs could be considered injurious."

In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement. 4 The report confirmed that unless a dog has clinical evidence of kidney disease or other problems for which protein restriction may be beneficial, there is no reason to recommend a change to a low-protein diet.

Research on dogs at other universities and at the Purina Pet Care Center has generated similar results. Julie Churchill, D.V.M., assistant clinical specialist in companion animal nutrition at the University of Minnesota, was an investigator in studies to learn whether altering the amounts of dietary protein and fat could protect the kidney in aging dogs. 5

"We found there is no benefit in restricting protein in geriatric dogs," Churchill says. "We observed no changes in morbidity or mortality. So, the question is, 'Why restrict protein if there is no benefit?'"

Similarly, preliminary findings from the Purina Pet Care Center indicate that healthy geriatric dogs fed 45 percent dietary protein have maintained health and body condition, with no evidence of increased kidney damage due to protein intake. The evidence supports other recent research that protein at any level consistent with complete and balanced nutrition has no adverse effect on the kidneys of normal, healthy dogs.

It is known that as dogs age they become less efficient in metabolizing protein than young dogs so that older dogs require more protein than young adult dogs to fully replenish their protein reserves and maintain protein turnover. The specific amount of protein needed, as a percent of diet, depends on several factors.

"Geriatric dogs should be treated individually," Churchill says. "I think it's important to conduct a good health examination and blood biochemical profile by the time a dog is 7 years old in order to evaluate organ functioning and determine the best diet for that individual dog."

Similar to how the nutritional needs of dogs change with their age and lifestyle, their energy requirements tend to decrease with age. However, not all geriatric animals are less active or overweight. In fact, a greater proportion of older dogs are underweight than any other age group.

Many inactive older dogs need fewer calories, so it is important that they consume less food or a lower calorie food than they ate when they were younger. For this reason, many foods for older dogs are formulated to contain fewer calories, but it is important that they receive adequate intake of protein and other nutrients while reducing calorie intake.



5. On the petcurean.com site - the one who makes the Go! Natural salmon and oatmeal they say that that line of food contains 42% meat inclusion - does that make a difference relative to the oat content?


That make oats the main ingredient as the the vitamins, minerals and oils is not going to be greater than 9 % of the foods volume it may be closer to 4% which would make Oats about 54%.

It is better than most holistic foods on the market. Most foods have multiple sources of grains when added all together they will outweigh the meat protein, as consumers it is hard to know just how much total grain is in food as there is no breakdown of percents for each ingredient.


With a food like EVO it is easier to tell



Click on an ingredient for more details.

Turkey
Chicken
Turkey Meal
Chicken Meal
Potatoes
Herring Meal
Chicken Fat
Natural Flavors
Egg
Garlic
Apples
Carrots
Tomatoes
Cottage Cheese
Alfalfa Sprouts
Dried Chicory Root
Taurine
Lecithin
Rosemary Extract
Vitamins/Minerals
Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms


As you have 6 proteins(turkey, chicken, turkey meal, chicken meal, herring meal, and egg) 4 of which come before the starch/carbohydrate) with 2 of them being meat meals(weighed meat with moisture removed down to 10% prior to processing)

Meat or Meat Based - Meat is the clean flesh of slaughtered cattle, swine, sheep or goats. The flesh can include striated skeletal muscle, tongue, diaphragm, heskeletal muscle, tongue, diaphragm, heart or esophagus, overlying fat, and the portions of skin, sinew, nerves, and blood vessels normally found with that flesh. This is what some people would call on the hoof or "wet - state". This applies equal to all livestock whether it be Beef, Chicken, Lamb, etc.,,,. After processing these meats can loose up to 80% of their weight. Thus when looking at the ingredients list you might find it as number one but in truly reality after processing it will fall between 4, 5 or even 6 on a ture ingredients list.


Had EVO been listed as "turkey, chicken, potatoes, herring meal egg, turkey meal and chicken meal "

then it could well contain more potatoes than meat because the chicken and turkey contains 70% moisture content


Now if I look at Timberwolf Black forest Canid formula

Venison, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Lamb, Whole Ground Millet, Lamb Meal, Venison Meal, Whole Ground Barley, Low Ash Salmon Meal, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Unrefined Walnut Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Amaranth, Blueberries, Glucosomine, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chickory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, .....

The first 2 meats do not have meal following so they have the 70% water content in them which will weigh quite a bit so they are definitely over written by the grains, the question then is, is the percent of Lamb Meal, Venison Meal, high enough to override the 2 previous grains, now you look at this part

PROTEIN: 22%
FAT: 12%

which is low compare to many other foods with multiple meats and this will tell you the grain content is much higher than the protein content.

If you now look at canidae
Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract,... Crude Protein (min.) 24.00%
Crude Fat (min.) 14.50%


Which is going to have more meat? The timberwolf has a lot more fancier ingredients which makes us as consumers think it is a better quality food(which is it's sale pitch) and sells for more in a smaller sized bag, but in reality it is a poorer quality food as it contains more grains , but if poultry does not agree with your dog than the Timberwolf may be a better choice for your dog.
The blueberries may sound attractive to the buyer but noting it is followed immediately by glucosamine, it might only be the equivalent of one blueberry every 3rd or 5th day for the dog , so some ingredients are simply a sales gimmick, which have no value other than to make a food look appealing to the buyer.

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 03:38 PM
Hi - my older dog - the beige one has always had a problem with vomiting bile or food. Sometimes she would get into these week long cycles where she would vomit so forcefully that she would be vomitting blood. That sure alarmed me but the vet said it was just broken capillaries from vomiting too much. I would be told to give her rice and hamburger until things settled down with zantac and other meds to calm the digestive tract. Although she has had diarrhea once in awhile it is mainly the vomiting that was the problem. The vet said gastroenteritis. Not sure if that is the same as IBS (more diarrhea with that?). Any ways, that was when they recommended the Eukanuba Senior - easy to digest because of chicken and being a senior formula. She has actually been pretty good on the Eukanuba with digestion but I have noticed both the dogs shed way more and now I see her starting to get itchy under the arms and feet - never had a problem with that in the past.

My other dog has always had a pretty good stomach but has always had allergies - constant runny nose, red, raw, itchy feet and recently the hair loss and licking of the backs of her legs and bum. Anal gland troubles as well. She is completely on the Eagle Pack fish (about a week now) and I have already noticed a difference in her. Sometimes I wondered if her entire body was itchy because you sometimes couldn't pet her or brush her without it sending shivers down her coat. This is the first time that I have ever noticed her not doing that when you pet her and I haven't noticed her scooting either! She does like the wolfking as well - currently transitioning my older dog to the wolf king. So I'm not sure whether to keep her on the Eagle or go with the wolfking.

When you said the wolf king was too rich for your dog - did she have more diarrhea?

I just can't wait to get them both on to something better. I really feel they were healthier dogs before I started them on the Euk. Before that they always had Nutram Lamb and Rice which was somewhat better but not the greatest either. I feel a little bad that I didn't realize there were different options until now! Hopefully the change won't stress them out too much - I'm going really slow with the 7 year old right now because of the sensitive tummy.

Thanks.

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Thank you OntarioGreys - that is a lot of information. But very helpful. I think I am confused now about the solid gold wolfking - because bison is the first ingredient does that mean it has more water content? salmon meal second. So, would it have proportionally a larger amount of grain?

I really don't know what allergies they have - it may have been just the corn in the Eukanuba for all I know.

Can anyone tell me what brands are better that may be higher in the meat?

Thanks again!

chico2
August 26th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Wanda welcome!! I have no idea about dog-foods,but just wanted to say your dogs are beautiful,great pics!!

rainbow
August 26th, 2006, 04:47 PM
I have a siberian husky (19 1/2 months) and a yellow lab (13 1/2 months) and I know what it's like to be on the dog food rollercoaster.

They were both on Nutro (both the chicken and the lamb formulas) but threw up small amounts of bile several times a week. The husky was on California Natural briefly and the lab Medi-Cal puppy briefly. I didn't like those foods so switched.

They were on Timberwolf Organics (both the bison and elk formulas) for about three months. Poops were a little soft and the price kept going up so I switched to Solid Gold.

They were on Solid Gold Wolf King (bison) for about three months and also had soft poops so I thought maybe the bison doesn't agree with them.

They have been on Innova now for about 3 1/2 weeks and today was the best poops yet so I hope I have now found the perfect food for them. :fingerscr

Except for the Nutro, all of those foods are good quality. Canidae and Go Natural are good as well. And Wellness will be by the end of the year when they remove the menadione sodium bisulfite from their food.

All dogs are different and you just have to find out by trial and error what food is best for yours. :dog: :pawprint:

meb999
August 26th, 2006, 05:10 PM
Thank you OntarioGreys - that is a lot of information. But very helpful. I think I am confused now about the solid gold wolfking - because bison is the first ingredient does that mean it has more water content? salmon meal second. So, would it have proportionally a larger amount of grain?

I really don't know what allergies they have - it may have been just the corn in the Eukanuba for all I know.

Can anyone tell me what brands are better that may be higher in the meat?

Thanks again!

It depends if you want to go with a very high in protein food (like Evo or Barking at the moon) -- which have about 42% protein. There was some controversy when they first came out about it being too rich and hard on the liver/kidneys...but I think vets are now saying that it's not.

There's also Canidae which has 2 meat meal sources before the first grain :

CANIDAE :

All Life Stages

Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Crude Protein-(min.)-24.00%-
Crude Fat-(min.)-14.50%-
Crude Fiber-(max.)-4.00%-
Moisture-(min.)-10.00%-

ME (kcal/cup) 468

if you want to compare different foods one next to the other here's a link : http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=28957

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Thanks rainbow - it is a very frustrating time because I do hate experimenting with this stuff - I'm sure we all just want to find the perfect food straight away!

What kind of Innova do you have your guys on?

Thanks also to meb999, I think I tried to find out if anyone carries the Canidae here in Winnipeg but didn't look into it too much - I'll have to see if it is available and look at the ingredients again.

I guess I was worried about my 7 year old - because she has a thinner build and is a senior I wondered about higher protein for her because she does tend to lose weight in the winter.

rainbow
August 26th, 2006, 06:47 PM
The regular Innova:

Turkey, chicken, chicken meal, ground barley, ground brown rice, potatoes, ground rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), herring, apples, carrots, cottage cheese, sunflower oil, dicalcium phosphate, alfalfa sprouts, eggs, garlic, taurine, sodium ascorbate, d-alpha tocopherol, freeze dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, freeze dried lactobacillus acidolphilus fermentation product, freeze dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, freeze dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, potassium chloride, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, beta carotene, niacin. calcium pantothenate, copper proteinate, manganous proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, calcium iodate, biotin.

Crude Protein (minimum) 24%
Crude Fat (minimum) 14%
Crude Fibre (maximum) 3%
Mosture (maximum) 10%
Vitamin E (minimum) 300 IU/kg
Vitamin C (minimum) 500 mg/kg

Linoleic Acids (Omega 6) (minimum) 4.25%
Fatty Acids (Omega 3) (minimum) 0.60%

Total micro-organisms (minimum) 900,000,000 CFU/LB

Calorie Content 557kcal/cup

Prin
August 26th, 2006, 07:06 PM
It depends if you want to go with a very high in protein food (like Evo or Barking at the moon) -- which have about 42% protein.
That's why petcurean keeps saying 42% meat inclusion- they want you to mistake it as 42% protein, which it is not. They're sneaky because it seems regardless of their meat inclusion, the protein % stays the same (for petcurean, I mean).

For Wolf King, the bison gets bumped, but salmon meal is #1 and that's a pretty good meat still. Millet is actually more digestible than corn and is one of the most digestible grains out there. :shrug:

Also, for the allergies, more important than the usual suspects are the ingredients your dog has eaten already. You have to look at the ingredients in the foods he has eaten and choose something that has completely different ingredients. So if it's chicken, corn, wheat and chicken by-products ;) then you have to choose something without any of those in it. If you were feeding lamb and rice, you have to find something without lamb or rice or any of the other ingredients.

As for the rest, I agree with OG.:) Great post OG!:highfive:

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Thank you Prin. I think my husband feels I am overly consumed with the whole dog food thing right now :)

I think he is right because I was even having dog food dreams last night!

I guess the solid gold doesn't have a senior formula - Wolfcub has more protien but it is for puppies, WolfKing for adults - do they need to make a WolfSenior? I guess there is the Holistique blendz for seniors but it has only 18% protein and my senior is still active and not overweight. I've read that some mix a higher protein food to up the protein so maybe I would consider that.

Thanks again everyone!

Prin
August 26th, 2006, 07:39 PM
I don't really believe in senior foods... I think they're a gimmick and usually have more crap fillers in them than the other foods... I think gradually reducing the amount you feed and keeping your senior as active as he/she can be is the way to go.:o

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 07:57 PM
So what do you think about the research on the higher protein levels for geriatric dogs that Ontariogreys posted?

Prin
August 26th, 2006, 08:17 PM
IMO, the worst thing is not enough protein. As long as the tests keep saying there is no effect on the kidneys and liver, I'm ok with high protein.:)

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 09:32 PM
So, in your opinion, what would be the best way to increase the protein in the wolfking. To add another dry food with more protein or to add it by giving your dog some extra salmon or fish or a bison burger? :D Any suggestions? Sorry for all the questions... I feel a little lost right now with all this information! After all this I think I'll need to improve my own diet! :)

Prin
August 26th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Personally, since you're dealing with allergies, I'd add "Barking at the Moon" to it. It's similar, but has beef instead of bison and no grains. It might be harder to find though, because it's new, and because people are still weary of the 42% protein.
http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=81&code=120

SuperWanda
August 26th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Thank you for all your replies! I will see if my local Pet Valu carries it - they said they can order things in as well.

I'll let you know how my girls do on the switch!

rainbow
August 26th, 2006, 11:45 PM
Good luck. :fingerscr And, make sure you do it gradually. ;)

SuperWanda
August 27th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Thanks - my older dog who is still on the Eukanuba is currently picking the Euk. out and spitting them on the floor, eating all the solid gold first, and then finally eating the Euk. at the end. I may be back here to ask some more questions if I run into problems but everything seems ok so far.

My dogs have never been on a beef diet - would it be ok to give them some beef marrow soup bones at this time? (allergy wise) - the older dog is developing some tartar and I was reading about giving raw bones and how that can benefit. Just don't want to introduce too much new stuff at once - although I guess it's not like they would be consuming too much - mostly chewing.

rainbow
August 27th, 2006, 02:12 PM
Ah, the ongoing debate over bones. If you do a search on the internet you'll find just as many people that are for as there are against.

I used to give them to my previous dogs all the time until both my last ones chipped and broke teeth. So now I don't give them to my dogs anymore. It's a tough decision to make.

SuperWanda
August 28th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Thanks - I sure don't want to break their teeth! Things just aren't very simple when it comes to feeding your dog.

So, twice a day I've been adding 1/3 cup of the wolfking to 3/4 cup of Eukanuba ( 3/4 cup of Eagle Pack fish for my other dog). I have been doing this for 3 days and I'm already noticing looser stools and really terrible gas. From what I have read that is normal? I have heard talk about the detox process from other threads - what exactly does that mean? I really hope that I don't bugger up their systems.

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Reduce the amount of WK you're feeding. Start with less. There aren't any stool hardeners in the WK, and you're going to have to feed less of it than the Eagle Pack, so the stools will be looser in the beginning, but the slower you switch, the easier it will be on the doggy. Starting with 1/3 of a cup is a bit too much. I'd go back to 1/4 or 1/8C of WK for a couple of days and then gradually start up again. When I switched Jemma and Boo, I took 9 days for Jemma and 14 for Boo (if I remember properly). They're stools were soft for about 4 months until I realized I was feeding way too much. Without the stool hardeners, if you feed too much, the stool is just soft.

If they don't get runny stools, I'd stick it out for a few more weeks. It does take a while to adjust. :shrug: It's cruddy, but that's how it is.:(

Good luck...

SuperWanda
August 28th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Thanks Prin,

So, is the beet pulp thing that bad then? I was under the impression that firmer stool can help with the anal gland problem. Although I really believe my poor dog's anal glands were irritated due to allergies. But, will their anal glands start filling up if the stool is not firm enough?

Also, since you feed your dogs wolfking as well, can you give me an idea what kind of foods I could add to introduce enzymes to aid in digestion? They already get some carrots but that is all I've ever tried. Some other thread suggested raw brocolli (can't imagine they'd like that). I've read what not to give - onions, celery, grapes, etc. Maybe a bit of extra fibre just isn't the thing to try at this stage? Although they haven't stopped grazing on grass!

Thanks!

Prin
August 28th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Some people say canned pumpkin (but not pie filling), but personally, I prefer the probiotics route... If you buy capsules at a health store, you can break them and put them on the food or just give them directly as pills. I find even with healthy doggies with 'happy poops' it still makes a difference. Also, you can try Solid Gold Sea Meal with it, but that has a lot of flax which can cause some itchiness (sometimes... Jemma is fine with it, Boo is itchy).

The anal glands might fill up if the stool is soft, but beet pulp is not the way to get them hard, IMO (unless you have permanent trouble). Beet pulp secretes a toxin that paralyses the colon, keeping the food trapped in there. I'd rather my doggies just digest well than have their colon's action stop... But that's just me.:D

les
August 29th, 2006, 08:46 AM
I just wanted to add my experience with wolf king - - First of all, I don't mean any disrepect to those who like the solid gold and the wolf king =)

I switched my dogs to Wolf King about a year ago. Right away (as soon as I started mixing it with their old food) they had the runs and BAD gas. I mean, the worst smell I've ever smelled before! My male had the runs like 5-10 times a day, my female was not much better. I kept at it trying to make the switch and thinking it would get better. We did that for about 6 months and no luck. Finally, I decided enough with that!

The point of my story is eventually I tried Canadae (all life stages) .... right away ... no runs - no gas. Not at all. The same with Innova and Nature's Variety (grain free version). My male is eating a rotation of these foods without any problems - and he has a VERY sensitive tummy.

I don't really believe that a "detox" when you switch foods is normal (or healthy) ... especially not for months! I think it's actually kind of dangerous - - take my male, he's so skinny to start with so for about 6 months he's basically getting nothing from his food because it's all coming out!

When I switched to Canine Life (homemade muffins with real ingredients) I did it cold turkey (they recommend that) and NO problems. Unfortunately for me, my male likes kibble - thats why he eats something different.

That's just my experience and why I wouldn't and don't recommend solid gold but, if you're going to feed kibble I would recommend canadae, innova and nature's variety.

SuperWanda
August 29th, 2006, 09:14 AM
Thanks les - It's good to hear about different brands that are working for sensitive dogs! Then I can try a different kind if the wolkking isn't working out. I have just purchased a small bag of the wolfking right now. They seem to really like it so I'll see what happens.

I agree with you in that if the stool's didn't improve or if the crazy gas continued I wouldn't want to give it to them for an extended time.

I looked at the ones you suggested and the Nature's variety is not sold in Manitoba. But I think we have the Innove and Canidae (at one location?). I'm also not sure what my dog with allergies is allergic too - if I can't find a food that is right for the both of them, I may have to give them different formulas. It's hard to know what to do - at this time I am seeing if a chicken or lamb free diet is better - it may not be if the allergy was to the corn and not the chicken. I guess I'll just have to do a little experimenting to see what works.

Thanks for your advice!

Prin
August 29th, 2006, 05:00 PM
I just wanted to add my experience with wolf king - - First of all, I don't mean any disrepect to those who like the solid gold and the wolf king =)
It depends on the doggy. :) I know a few who couldn't digest WK, but IMO, it's a place to start with allergy dogs because the ingredients are so different. If we had Timberwolf Organics readily available, I'd push that instead. :D

Nature's Variety looks good, but the "variety" part might make it a nightmare with allergy dogs. I mean, it's got a little bit of everything under the sun in there.

rainbow
August 30th, 2006, 05:12 PM
I agree, Timberwolf Organics and Wolf King are both good foods and excellent to try for dogs with allergies because of the alternate meat sources.

I fed both of them to my dogs who do not have allergies. First the TO and then the WK. They did not do well on either and I presume it's because the food is too rich for them. I can't get Canidae where I live so I switched them to Innova. They have been on that for a month now and their poops are finally solid and less frequent and I'm a happy mom. :D

SuperWanda
August 31st, 2006, 08:50 AM
Well, everything seems to be going ok so far with the transition.

I do have a question about flax oil or flax meal. Before I started with the new food my older dog - the one that has a sensitive stomach but has never really had problems with allergies, had been scratching and licking at her underarms. I was wondering if that was from swimming in stinky pond/river water here. I noticed that the Eukanuba does have flax meal and the wolfking has flax oil which some have said causes itching. How are you suppose to know what this itching is caused by? I guess once she is on the wolfking completely then I will have a chance to see if the itching isn't from some other ingredient in the Eukanuba.

I have just started 1/2 old and 1/2 new and their stool seems pretty good. So I'll :fingerscr

Prin
August 31st, 2006, 01:55 PM
I'd wait a few months after the switch to be sure about the flax. There's so much in Euk that could cause allergies and WK is very different. A lot of the flax oil is destroyed in the cooking process (it's very fragile), so it won't be nearly as "potent" as flaxseed (IMO). It can take several months to get rid of an allergen's effects apparently. :shrug:

Is the skin red? Is the fur really falling out? Jemma swam in the river with a duck and got a duck parasite that really infected her skin. Her fur was falling out in clumps and she had significant bald spots.:sad: If that's what your doggy seems like, you need a vet...

SuperWanda
August 31st, 2006, 03:45 PM
No - the hair is not falling out - the hair has always been pretty sparse in her underarm area - that's why I was wondering if she could get swimmer's itch there - is that the parasite you were talking about? The skin is pink/red - I think her scratching has made it that way. I'll wait on the diet change then. In the meantime I've been washing it with some medicated soap that the vet gave me for my other dog's feet and I have some anti-itch spray called wham. I'll have to see the vet if it doesn't improve.

So, if the flaxseed oil is lost in the cooking process why do they put it in pet foods?

Prin
August 31st, 2006, 03:52 PM
Yeah, I think swimmer's itch is the same parasite. Jemma got antibiotics for it because it had developed quickly into a staph infection. It cleared up pretty quickly though.

They put the flaxseed in there because it's good.:shrug: Some companies probably spray it on after the cooking too, but even then, a lot wouldn't keep. From what I've read about flaxseed oil, you have to keep it in the freezer in the dark for it to keep its properties. But even if most gets destroyed, some is probably left, and some is better than none.:shrug: Fish oils keep better though.

SuperWanda
September 1st, 2006, 04:38 PM
Prin - I saw a picture of your dogs on another thread - they are beautiful and their coats look great! I hope mine get that luster in their coats with the WolfKing!

I wanted to ask you if you have any suggestions for canned foods and allergies? I was looking at the Eagle Pack and Merrick - some are fish and bison based.

Also wondering if you have tried the SolidGold Green cow. Looks like gross stuff but I have read that it does wonders for the dogs coat and digestion.

Still having good success with the transition. My allergic dog who also had the anal gland troubles is doing really well - I don't know if it is the different grains but she has an easier time with her poops - squats and poops once instead of shuffling along and pooping multiple times. I have not noticed any scooting and way less licking! She seems a lot more comfortable! I have also noticed that they both have a lot more energy! More playful and happy!:D

rainbow
September 1st, 2006, 07:11 PM
Glad to hear you're having good success with the switch-over to Wolf King and hope it continues. :highfive:

For the canned food I would feed the Merrick over the Eagle Pack.

I don't know about the Solid Gold Green Cow but I'm presuming it's green tripe. I've heard wonderful things about green tripe and would love to feed it but haven't been able to find it where I live. :sad: Lots of others here feed it though and will be able to tell you more. :D

SuperWanda
September 1st, 2006, 07:59 PM
Thanks Rainbow!

Yes, the green cow is green tripe. It sounds like something a dog would love! I should probably not add too many new things to their already changing diet but I thought I would get some opinions on the canned because I wouldn't mind adding wet food once and awhile. I also have a kong which I stuff and freeze.

SuperWanda
September 1st, 2006, 08:03 PM
Just wanted to add that the green cow is not in stores here either but the manager at my local pet valu - where I purchase the wolfking said that she could order it in - but I'd have to buy a case. Didn't want to do that without getting some opinions first.

technodoll
September 1st, 2006, 08:04 PM
never met a dog that didn't like green tripe... but holy heavens does that stuff STINK :yuck: maybe that's why dogs love it so much? LOL

phoenix
September 1st, 2006, 08:14 PM
I've tried the SG Green Cow. It's fine... very smelly. Dogs loved it, of course. My husband doesn't want it back in the house :D good thing he knows the dogs come first tho!
I try and add some canned in the morning (evo, tripe, or canidae); then yogurt at night- to their kibble. They love it. A couple of cans lasts me the week with my 2.

I try also to feed raw every few days... chicken backs, etc.
Normally this does not cause any digestive upset as long as I don't mix raw and kibble together.

edit: on rereading this, let me say that Sam and Maia have tried it. I have not.

rainbow
September 1st, 2006, 10:00 PM
Just wanted to add that the green cow is not in stores here either but the manager at my local pet valu - where I purchase the wolfking said that she could order it in - but I'd have to buy a case.

Thanks for the info....I'll have to ask at the pet store here. :)

I can use that to stuff their kongs and freeze and then they can have them outside so I don't have to have the smell in the house. :D