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??? I am not sure about this one

Shaykeija
August 25th, 2006, 02:17 AM
:yell:
Doggie Discipline Shakedown!

An alternative means of discipline for your dog is known as the "shakedown." This method is suggested for shy dogs and for dogs who have large jowls (St. Bernards, Newfoundlands, some boxers), for whom chin discipline would not be as effective. This is also suggested as an alternative method for puppies, until they are at least six months old.

Note: Physical discipline should be reserved for serious dog crimes only, and not to be used for every episode of bad behavior. Verbal correction might suffice for many dogs, but you should know more than one method of discipline before the unfortunate necessity of using one arises.

In the shakedown the dog is sitting, anchored in place with tension on the training collar. When you have seated the dog, and are sure it will not move, wheel around in front of it and kneel down. Grasp the scruff of the dog's neck with both hands and lift it right off its front feet into the air. Look directly into the dog's face, and shake the dog back and forth in quick, firm motions, gradually lowering the dog. Scold the dog while you look at it, and keep it elevated a good thirty seconds. It may be difficult to raise some larger breeds, in which case you will have to sacrifice this part of the procedure. Most dogs, however, can be lifted up off their front feet with a little effort.

After discipline in this fashion, the dog will be shaken up mentally and physically. Eye contact is essential. When you grasp the dog under its chin, make sure that you have one or both thumbs looped under the training collar, to stop the dog from breaking away. With your fingers, grab hold of quite a bit of neck scruff, and hold it firmly.

For young puppies amend this method somewhat. First, cut down on the intensity and duration of your correction. A young pup should be disciplined by simply grabbing with one hand the scruff of the neck and giving it a good shake. This method approximates the technique a mother of a litter uses to keep order in the litter, to stop fighting between litter members, or to help wean her pups away from her to solid food. Discipline methods that reflect instinctual canine behavior will communicate displeasure in ways a dog can understand. Other corrections like throwing or hitting the dog with objects, spanking with newspapers, or simple pleading only serve human, not canine, ends, and do not communicate displeasure clearly to the dog.


WHAT?????????????

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 02:21 AM
That's just sick and twisted. Nobody EVER try that please! There are just too many things wrong with that to even start outlining them. :eek:

mafiaprincess
August 25th, 2006, 02:28 AM
Where did it come from?

Skryker
August 25th, 2006, 02:29 AM
WTF?!?

I think I see what they are suggesting, but I had to reread that a few times. Not only bad advice, but poorly written and confusing bad advice. :frustrated:

Shaykeija
August 25th, 2006, 02:46 AM
this is where it came from

http://www.shihtzusecrets.com/Shihtzu-Dog-Discipline.htm

we3beagles
August 25th, 2006, 10:12 AM
I have seen it before in training books. It is supposed to simulate a momma dog grabbing its pup by the scruff and giving it a shake when it refuses to listen to her. I kind of always equated it to shaken baby syndrome though and it never really seemed like a great idea.

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 12:32 PM
I've never heard of a dog grabbing another from under the chin though. That's not natural at all. I mean when they roll around and dominate, then dogs can hold a dog down by the throat, but never as a disciplinary thing.:confused: More natural is grabbing by the neck fur on the top, IMO. I just never thought any action that involves submission to dominate was natural. Like you have to kneel down face to face with the dog before you go and attack it? That's just not going to work at all, unless you don't like how your face looks.

dogmelissa
August 25th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Doggie Discipline Shakedown!
An alternative means of discipline for your dog is known as the "shakedown." This method is suggested for shy dogs and for dogs who have large jowls (St. Bernards, Newfoundlands, some boxers), for whom chin discipline would not be as effective. This is also suggested as an alternative method for puppies, until they are at least six months old.

Question #1, wtf is "chin discipline"?

Question #2, how is shaking a scared/shy dog going to make it anything but more scared/shy?? When a child runs to her room because she's afraid of the stranger at the door, do you bring the stranger to her room?????? OMG, NO!

I can understand the grabbing by the scruff and firmly (but not roughly) shaking a dog as a means of discipline, and yes it would work most effectively on puppies, because this is what momma would do, but how this is supposed to work on an adult dog or supposedly better on big-jowled dogs, you've got me. Of course, a shih-tzu owner can speak volumes about big dogs, too?? Not to mention that there's pretty much no way that this is an instant correction, as by the description, you gotta get the dog in a sit, basically go around to the front of it and *then* start shaking it. And if this was a dog who was being aggressive at something (for whatever reason), there's no damn way I'm putting my hands and face anywhere near their mouth!! I value my fingers!

For any newbies who are reading this post and thinking this is a good idea, please please please please please don't try this. If you *must* find a physical way of disciplining your dog, don't do it in a way that could put you in danger (especially if you have a big dog!), and getting in a dog's face is a sure-fire way to get bitten, especially if you end up pinching it or pulling fur when you grab it around the neck!

And everyone else... we should email the author of this article (especially since it's posted on a shih-tzu site and how you could do this to a small dog without hurting it is past my understanding) and rage at her!

Melissa

Edited to add: here is a quote from the front page for this "book"
If you are interested in having a happy, healthy, and well-behaved Shih Tzu and would rather not spend an arm and a leg on dog training, you really do owe it to yourself to get the book.

Much of the information I've compiled is word of mouth information, and has never been written down in book format.

Both things in bold are bolded for a reason: 1. You get what you pay for, usually (though a $1000 dog is not necessarily better than the $100 one!), and with training, spending money on a good trainer is absolutely necessary. & 2. "Word of mouth", IMO = myth or bad advice from people who aren't qualified to being saying it. Every good training method has been published, or written down in some form, usually in many places by many different people. They are tried-and-true methods, not something that "my neighbour tried once and it worked for him" things. She owns one dog, and "tested" her methods on him. Would anyone else presume to say that they are en experienced dog-trainer after teaching their own (admittedly small) dog to sit, down, stay, etc??
Gawd.. run screaming from this lady and her "book". Seems that anyone can "publish" an e-book these days and make money on it. How sad. Though I have to admit, it is tempting to "buy" the book and then tell her I hated it and have her refund my money, just so I could see exactly what she's suggesting.

Schwinn
August 26th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Actually it sounds like a *******ization of a technique used on severely dominant dogs. There's a few old threads about it that I couldn't find, but I believe it was called "flipping" (I definitely may be way off on what it is called). It's only to be used as last case or emergency scenario, and definitely doesn't involve shaking the dog.

rainbow
August 26th, 2006, 07:56 PM
I haven't heard of that but I've heard of pinching your dog by the corner of his mouth when he's unruly. They said it was supposed to get the dog's attention again so you can resume what you were training. :shrug: :confused:

mastifflover
August 26th, 2006, 08:12 PM
That is barbaric. If I did that to Buddy he would be beyond terrified. Let alone lifting a dog 165 pound dog off the ground by the scruff of his neck would more likely harm the dog and I certainly could not lift Bud off the ground. I reiterate what Prin said do not ever do this unless you are a total fool

Prin
August 26th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Actually it sounds like a *******ization of a technique used on severely dominant dogs. .Hmmm what are the ****'s?? My imagination is going wild! :D

There's a few old threads about it that I couldn't find, but I believe it was called "flipping" (I definitely may be way off on what it is called). It's only to be used as last case or emergency scenario, and definitely doesn't involve shaking the dogAlpha rolling? That doesn't involve crouching and lifting the dog up from under his chin...

joeysmama
August 26th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Hmmm what are the ****'s?? My imagination is going wild!


LOL! Mine too! I thought I knew all the dirty words.

I'm still lurking and learning around here but reading that even though I'm new to doggie discipline, I was shocked.

THAT'S NOT DISCIPLINE. THAT'S CRUELTY

My kids are in their 20's and treat the dog like a baby but I still admonish them not to be rough with him. They tease me about the shaken baby syndrome but if it happens to babies I don't see why it couldn't hurt a puppy as well.

And what mama dog is able to pick their puppy up AND maintain eye contact ???

This is seriously nutty !!!

technodoll
August 26th, 2006, 09:49 PM
man. that advice is a serious invitation to an @sskicking - by the dog! :mad: kneeling down in front of a big (jowly) dog to then scold it? shaking it around for at least 30 seconds? keeping the aggressive eye-contact while doing this? man... i hope the author has good liability insurance :eek:

i've been know to grab my dog's loose neck skin once in a while for a shake while scolding with a loud voice, but after once or twice of doing that, no physical touch is needed cuz the dog knows it's done something rreeeeaaal bad and the BIG VOICE is enough cause for embarassement (the initial shake is just to get the message through that the LOUD VOICE is NOT happy - smart dogs make the association very fast). but i would never "lift my dogs up in the air while shaking them by the jowls for 30 seconds", are they nuts? that's enough to send all respect my dogs have for me as alpha running out the door!!

rainbow
August 26th, 2006, 10:56 PM
Hey, I agree with all of you guys, I was just adding another stupid thing that I heard. ;)

technodoll
August 27th, 2006, 12:20 AM
no no rainbow, that was GOOD! i'm always amazed at all the "strange advice" that's out there :eek:

rainbow
August 27th, 2006, 12:48 AM
Have you actually done the pinching thing? I did it once but felt so bad I never tried it again.

technodoll
August 27th, 2006, 12:52 AM
nope... can't see the point :confused:

i'd rather stick with my "tried and true" methods :thumbs up

rainbow
August 27th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Yeah, I couldn't see the point either but thought I'd try it as I heard it during the teenage years. The look I got from my boy was enough to make me realize the method was stupid so I just went back to what worked for me. ;)

phoenix
August 27th, 2006, 08:33 AM
Hmmm what are the ****'s?? My imagination is going wild! :D

...
starts with a "b" and means the child of uncertain or unauthorized ancestry...

tenderfoot
August 28th, 2006, 11:10 AM
NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!!!! What a horrible scenario they have created. G-d forbid someone tries it. Doesn't it just blow your mind what people advise others to do?

I just tried to go to the site inorder to contact Shiela Garcia and question her further- but there was no contact page or email address.

dogmelissa
August 28th, 2006, 03:48 PM
I just tried to go to the site inorder to contact Shiela Garcia and question her further- but there was no contact page or email address.

There is contact info for her webhosting (I think) at the bottom of the main page:

Does anyone live in California or would be willing to make a long-distance call to see if there is any further contact information? Or perhaps I should try buying the "book" and see if it has contact info in it? It must, how else could you return it-unless that's also a load of ****.

Melissa