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Find him a new home or not?

Ryanh
August 22nd, 2006, 07:23 PM
I don't know what to do with my 9month lab/pit mix. I feel very guilty even thinking about giving him up to a new home since I feel like I am giving up especially since I have grown up with dogs.

We got Maddox on Aug 8 and have been through many frustrating days. We have made some progress with him, he is now crateable so accidents in the house rare, he does listen more, sits on command and does other stuff, but thats it. He is in obedience training now, today is the 3rd session of 8, he is great at the training sessions, but when he is home he is crazy. It seems my fiancee and I cannot give him the attention and patience that he needs and both of us have lost our patience with him. I for one am a patient, laid back induvidual, I can tolerate a lot before I get upset, but having maddox for 6weeks has caused me to be constantly stressed out, short tempered and always at the brink of snapping, my fiancee has told me that i am getting short with her. Well today I finally blew my lid, came home to see him in his crate after being there for maybe 4hrs since lunch time to see him lying in his pee...i know not his fault, i let him out and he goes nuts around the house dripping pee all over the house, again i know its not his fault, but that was the last thing i wanted to see when i got home from work. Here i am in the bath bathing him for 3rd time in 4days, then he gets out and all hells breaks loose, mad dog maddox going berzerk running around chasing the cats, barking at me, just anarchy with 4legs. This is an average day with him, we constantly have to keep him in control, our afterwork lives are now devoted to keeping him under control and occupied which recently has not being working well, he wants to play with the cats all the time, i mean he is harmless with them, but its constant hissing, swatting, chasing, and barking at them. And then there is the bitting, nipping which is starting to hurt, pulling on the leash some days, chewing and eating everything in site, barking at one of us when he wants attention which can be all the time...give him attention and he bites you. Don't get me wrong, he is a dog that has the potential to be a great, obedient and loyal dog, but we do not have anymore energy or patience for him, my fiancee is starting to worry about my mental state since I cannot handle this....I feel stupid to say this, but this evening before she took him to obedience class I was at the brink of tears from all this stress. Its starting to effect my work, today I got a little irrate with someone on the phone...i must say they were being difficult, but that is unlike me to do that. Just yesterday I was ok with him, in fact my fiancee was sounding like I am sounding today, but i told her its ok, we can handle it, we've gone too far to give him up, but I think today all that pressure blew up in me. I can say by tomorrow I might be ok with him again, but just one little thing and I will blow my top again.
I love dogs, my families dog of 13yrs who we had since a puppy had to get put down last week due to cancer...surgery had failed to work etc and it was very hard for me to handle..had to take a half day of work off since i could not deal with it, so please don't think of me as an irresponsible dog owner who can't handle an energetic dog, I just can't take it anymore....I worry that it will put a lot of stress on our relationship, in fact I would say it is.

I really cannot see any way for this to work, Maddox needs an owner that can spend more time with him, has more property for him to run around and someone who can devote the time to teach him, but I worry someone will get him and not take care of him and he will get abandoned or put down...As much as I can't stand the dog I care for him, but I don't think I can handle him anymore.



I don't know what to do!does this sound silly or is this normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!help!

jessi76
August 22nd, 2006, 07:39 PM
my trainer used to say, if you can make it through the idiot phase (8-10mths) then you will have a long happy life together. Most people give up on their dogs at this age because it's difficult. They seem to forget training, they seem to flat out ignore you, they test you, challenge your rank, and drive you insane. it's just a phase, it DOES PASS. but you have to maintain control, consistancy and most importantly....a sense of humor! don't let it get to you so much, take a deep breath, and realize it could be ALOT worse.

you are not the first person to live with a furry freakshow. Take steps to remedy the problems as they come... an off the wall dog needs less time in the crate and more time burning energy OUTSIDE. a dog who won't listen to you may need to be kept on leash so you can enforce some house rules. a dog who soils his crate needs to go out more often. etc...

if you can't take care of his exercise needs yourself because you work, then pay someone to do it for you. I sent my dog to daycare at that age, and although it cost alot ($25/day) it was money WELL spent. I had a DEAD tired dog by 5pm. a dog who was happy to lay at my feet until bedtime. all the while continuing with obedience classes 1 night a week. constant exercise and training is what got us through it.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
August 22nd, 2006, 07:41 PM
I am not a really a dog expert - but it does sound like typical puppy behavior to me.

Maybe he needs more to tire him out, also obedience training will help too with some of his behaviors and teach him basic doggie manners. Could someone come take him for a walk during the day when you are both at work.

Last I would reccomend reading Marley and Me by John Grogan - I definately think you could relate to this book. :D

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 07:43 PM
This doesn't sound silly at all. This sounds like puppy stuff. Not the fun cute puppy stuff, but the pain in the @$$ puppy stuff that you struggle through, cursing the entire time.
How much exercise is Maddox getting? From what you describe, it doesn't sound like enough, and it should be upped. I'm guessing he isn't ready to be offleash yet, unless in a smaller fenced area, so if possible, find such a spot and let him go wild. A tired dog is a well behaved dog. It won't prevent peeing in his crate, but it will calm him down some. Don't give up, you're almost through the toughest bit!

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 07:45 PM
Last I would reccomend reading Marley and Me by John Grogan - I definately think you could relate to this book. :D

LOL, I don't think that book should be read until AFTER he either calms down, or they accept that he won't ever calm down.. it may be a bit discouraging and scary at this point in the game:D

Ryanh
August 22nd, 2006, 08:19 PM
He gets enough exercise according to our trainer, I take him for a 1 mile run at 7am, then a quick walk before I leave for work at 8ish, my fiancee comes home at lunch for 1hr, takes him for a walk, maybe 10mins since thats all the time she had, then my 5-5:30 one us us are home and he will get another 10-15min walk and usually 2-3 more walks that evening. I try to play with him off lease with a ball, but if someone else is walking their dog nearby I can't since he goes after them wanting to play.
If I could run more in the morning I would, but I can't do that much just yet.

I think part of this is due to us not having the time for him, we do know we are in that 8-10mth stage of madness, but we think we are not able to give him what he needs and the idea of giving up our life for him is hard to swallow, we made the mistake of ignoring that aspect when we got him since at the time he was calm and cool, temperment test showed just want we wanted the the humane society said he was a good calm dog, thats what we were expecting.

At this point since I have calmed down I feel OK, but I worry about me losing my temper and doing something.

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 08:23 PM
I think he needs more play time. Jemma jogged with her old owner 45 minutes a day and it didn't wear her out. She needed to play. Running is pretty dull and unchallenging to a doggy.

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 08:33 PM
I think he needs more play time. Jemma jogged with her old owner 45 minutes a day and it didn't wear her out. She needed to play. Running is pretty dull and unchallenging to a doggy.
I dunno, I run Lay each morning for 12 km and it knocks her out cold for at least 5 hours. She still wants to play when I take her out again, but in the house she just sleeps and sleeps.

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 08:35 PM
How long does 12k take you?

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 08:38 PM
we go pretty slow, and stop for a swim after 6 km, so 60 min running time, 70 min total. Half of it is offleash

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 08:41 PM
Yeah, the offleash part and the swimming part makes it more interesting, I think...

Angies Man
August 22nd, 2006, 08:42 PM
Some questions:

How long does he have to stay in his crate during the day? He may be able to get through the night without peeing, but it's tougher for a young dog to go all day without going out. They have a drink first thing in the morning and then no chance for a second pee. And, nothing is completely developed in young dogs, you know.

Where do you park his crate during the day? Park it close to the door where he's going out. First thing for Maddox when you get up or get home is that he goes out. As in IMMEDIATELY! Let him do his excited, happy dog routine outside and not tear around the house. And have a lawn chair out there. Let him run around, pee, poop, sniff, etc. When he starts to wind down a bit, YOU sit down and make him sit to be calmed, petted, and told good boy--I think it kinda sounds like you and he are suffering from a "failure to communicate." One of the basic tennets of behaviorism is that as much as possible you reward the behavior you want and as much as possible ignore/discard the behavior you don't. So if he's wild and crazy, don't reward him by yelling at him, but do praise him when he comes over, sits, and submits for some affection. Praise in a calming voice, too. A couple of treats in the pocket can speed things up. It takes self control and patience but it DOES work.

Get your obedience trainer to help you and he learn the "WAIT!" or "STAY!" commands. And make him wait in his crate until you can get a lead on him.

Do you have a fenced yard? He's got a lot of energy--that needs to be worked off. Get him a frisbee (get a dog style frisbee they last longer) or a tennis ball and throw it for him--he's got retriever, he'll get the idea and make a pest of himself with putting the toy in your lap, but you need to channel his boundless enthusiasm in productive directions.

I'm sorry, it sounds like he'll need a lot of socialization. NO! is a great place to start--especially if he's terrorizing the cat. That isn't acceptable, and can lead to accidental injury or death of cats. YOU and your GF need to take him to the obedience classes and learn to handle him. Obedience training is as much the training of the human as it is the canine. You need to learn to use the lead and training collar (it isn't automatic!) And you need to learn to work him firmly with patience. No jerking the lead and losing your temper!!! He's gonna take time and effort, if you can't do it, I'd suggest you find him a home before you make his problems much worse and permanent.

Obedience training, btw, works best with a lot of repitition. Everyday. You got this puppy, it's up to you to make him into a nice dog.

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 08:44 PM
Yeah, the offleash part and the swimming part makes it more interesting, I think...
Probably, but in the winter she doesn't get the swim, but back on topic... I still think, despite what the trainer says, that he needs more exercise and mental stimulation.

Rottielover
August 22nd, 2006, 08:53 PM
adolecence....with constaint leadership, and positive ways to dicipline, play time mixed with training it can be done. Listen, I had a puppy when my daughter was a baby. I am a single mom. If I could do it, anyone could. Sit down with your fiance, and figure out how BOTH of you are going to handle it. If both of you are on the same page with training and dicipline, it can be done.

Ryanh
August 22nd, 2006, 08:56 PM
ok, kayla got home from obedience class since I was told to stay home:D and she spent 1hr after class talking with the trainer who also did the temperment test on Maddox so she knows the dog. Her recommendation which happens to be the 2nd time she has ever recommended it is doggy bootcamp, she says it will be hard, but the last person she recommended it to has excellent results after 1 week and her dog who she said was worse that our Maddox responded very well to this.

So he is to stay in his crate all the time except to go outside, when he is outside we go to one place and thats its, no walk. We are also to get a pinch collar and we let him out of the crate, if he goes nuts or goes after the cats we use the collar and put him back in the crate and keep doing this until he learns that he must behave if he wants out. Sounds extreme, but its suppose to teach him to behave when in our house and to teach him who is boss. Its going to be hard, but if this works say after 2weeks I will be VERY happy.

As for the comments on more exercise, it makes sense, but at the same time that will just turn him into an athlete that will never tire and that he will keep needing more and more, at least thats what the trainer mentioned....although not the first time I heard that.

I think i just needed to vent and this place is great for that, I always feel better after seeing the advice you people give. thanks!

pitgrrl
August 22nd, 2006, 09:02 PM
Ryanh, I totally feel for you. I got my two pit mixes when they were around the same age as your dog and I had many crying my eyes out what have I done moments in the first few months with them.
As others have posted, one of the things that helped the most was stepping up the excersise.
It's great that he gets a run in the morning, and a visit at lunch, but 10-15 minutes walks aren't going to do it, as you probably can tell. Maybe another long walk or run in the evening would get out some of his energy. Could you maybe take an hour after dinner and walk with your fiancee and Maddox? Or you could make a flirt pole for him to play with, jumping also tend to tire them out pretty quick.

As for the madness in the house, what really worked with my two was to give them something to do, rather than constantly correct them for running around and jumping on everything. For example, I taught them to go get specific toys, so that when I get home and they're all excited, I immediately tell them to go get X toy, which re-directs their excitement and gives them something to do other than running around aimlessly.

I really hope you can dig deep and find that extra bit of patience to get through the idiot adolesant stage, it really will be rewarding when you've both made it through all the insanity and come out the otherside. Your relationship with your dog will be so much stronger for it.

LavenderRott
August 22nd, 2006, 09:13 PM
Your trainer is an idiot!

Your dog is "hyper" so to train the dog, you are to limit his activities as if he has had major surgery and then correct him with a prong collar if he doesn't behave like a fully trained adult dog!?! My God, he can't even go for a walk! Sorry, but to me, that is borderline abuse and I believe in crating!

He needs guidance and exercise. Not being couped up and abused.

Prong collars are great TOOLS. They ARE NOT a quick fix to replace patience and consistancy.

pitgrrl
August 22nd, 2006, 09:14 PM
So he is to stay in his crate all the time except to go outside, when he is outside we go to one place and thats its, no walk. We are also to get a pinch collar and we let him out of the crate, if he goes nuts or goes after the cats we use the collar and put him back in the crate and keep doing this until he learns that he must behave if he wants out. Sounds extreme, but its suppose to teach him to behave when in our house and to teach him who is boss. Its going to be hard, but if this works say after 2weeks I will be VERY happy.

Keeping him on a leash at all times, so that you have better control and are able to correct his behavior makes sense, but I have to be honest, that amount of crate time seems like a recipe for an incrediably frustrated dog who isn't going to be able to learn much.
I'm actually a bit amazed that a trainer would suggest this, as the only comparable thing I've ever heard was specifically in training of working dogs in which that level of frustration was channelled into training and work, work which burned alot of steam.



As for the comments on more exercise, it makes sense, but at the same time that will just turn him into an athlete that will never tire and that he will keep needing more and more, at least thats what the trainer mentioned....although not the first time I heard that.

The thing is, you have a pretty athletic mix on your hands. Pitulls are athletes, it isn't fair, IMO, to deny them that in hopes of making them into a lazy dog. He is also at an age where he has a whole lot of energy to burn, in my experience it's a lot harder to try and teach a wound up, frustrated dog anything than a well excersised one.

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 09:15 PM
omg I thought Lavender was being harsh, but she's right! Exercising dogs doesn't make them more hyper. No way! Keeping them in a cage all day does that. Wow, your trainer is really backwards.:eek:

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 09:18 PM
Is the trainer part of a company? or is she private? Because if she's the former, I would complain for the ****ty advice you've been given.

technodoll
August 22nd, 2006, 09:24 PM
to quote cesar millan:

Exercise
Discipline
Affection

...in that order. his training methods may not be liked by everyone but this piece of advice is rock-solid!

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 09:28 PM
I hate cesar milan, but what he says is usually true (it's just what he does that is horrible).

Ryanh
August 22nd, 2006, 09:42 PM
I don't think you people are reading my posts, he gets 20mins walk before 7am, 10min run between 7-7:30, 12-1 my gf is home, takes him out for a 20min walk, back home by 5, gets a 20-30min walk, then i get home take him out for a 10min walk, he then gets 3 more walks from 7-10:30 about 10-15mins each. When we can we let him off leash and play with a ball or fresbie, let him in the backyard which is small and let him run around. He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough. I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.
We have been disciplining him, good firm NO, or OFF if he is getting on the sofa or jumping up, giving LOTS of praise when he is good, he is not a hyper dog he is just CRAZY, he serious bounces off the wall, there are bents in my wall, he runs straight into furniture, jumps down the stairs from top to bottom. I try to play with him, but that just amounts to him grabing my hands, arms, feet and hurting me, if I sit on the floor even to stretch before I go joggin with him he bites my head,shoulder, legs, even walking away saying NO does nothing until his attention is diverted to something else...cat.

Our trainer does not promote this method of extreme training, like I said she uses it as a last resort option, she used it on her dog and it worked, she is no mean trainer, she is one of the nicest people I have met. She is the trainer/temperment tester at the humane society that did maddox's test and said he was an extreme case that needed lots of attention, something we were not made aware of.
I have talked with other trainers about him and all were surprised of his behaviour, they all consider him outside the norm.

*and he doesn't stay in the crate all day, if he behaves well outside the crate then he gets to stay out, but as soon as he misbehaves we correct him with the collar and put him in the crate. If he is good we take him out, this is only a temporary 1-2 week bootcamp, at this point I have no other option, we have done everything that we have been told to do, it hasn't been working.

..perhaps this was a bad idea posting

technodoll
August 22nd, 2006, 09:46 PM
sounds like your dog is bored and needs a job... a place to funnel all his excessive energy. perhaps it would not be a bad idea to think about another home for him where he could run all day, perhaps herding sheep? living out on a farm where he feels useful? i dunno... just throwing ideas out here. some dogs are just not meant for "city life" :shrug:

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 09:48 PM
sounds like your dog is bored and needs a job... Exactly.

I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.
That right there is why I will never get a puppy. Even the best dog takes about 3 years to really calm down. If you don't have the patience for that, then you really need to rethink your situation.

Your dog is a puppy. Damage is what puppies do. Super damage is what bored puppies do.:shrug:

MyBirdIsEvil
August 22nd, 2006, 09:58 PM
He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough. I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.

I always feel sad when I see things like this, because SO many people don't understand just how much exercise and stimulation a high-drive dog needs to be calm and happy.

Working dogs aren't bred to be taken out and walked and played with and that's it, they're bred to WORK. Working means that they can run and have energy ALL day. A normal working day for someone is 8 hours, a working dog can do 8 hours of constant work if needed, which means they are high energy dogs.

I have an aussi/german shep/chow mix, and aussi and german shepherds are dogs that are bred to be able to do 4-6 hours of heavy activity. Heavy activity for these dogs would be herding several sheep, pulling things, etc., activities that they need to put a lot of thought and energy into.
If my dog doesn't get at least 3 hours of heavy activity a day she will zoom around the house and bounce of the walls (literally), chasing cats and doing all kinds of other stuff. This is all stuff that you have to be very hands on with your dog about to teach that it's not ok. If you just stand there and scream "no!" the dog knows you can't keep up with it.

Keeping your dog in a crate for a longer time is NOT going to make it better, especially since your dog is a puppy. It's going to make your dog even more hyperactive because it won't have enough mental and physical stimulation.

You mentioned that your dog is good with obedience training. Try doing more training at home. Teach your dog to turn off lights, find stuff, bring you things, get your dog involved in your daily life. Don't just get home and take your dog out to run around, it needs mental stimulation AT HOME. It needs to learn more things in order to understand your world, or else it will just be confused. Try teaching your dogs several names of objects and then teaching him to pick each object out by name.

If you don't do these things you will either just have to deal with the bad behavior until your dog is older and calmer (which may be never), or it may be a good idea to find a home that the dog will be better suited for. I know this is a last resort, but sometimes there's just no way to change your life around enough to suit a high energy high drive dog.

LavenderRott
August 22nd, 2006, 09:59 PM
I don't think you people are reading my posts, he gets 20mins walk before 7am, 10min run between 7-7:30, 12-1 my gf is home, takes him out for a 20min walk, back home by 5, gets a 20-30min walk, then i get home take him out for a 10min walk, he then gets 3 more walks from 7-10:30 about 10-15mins each. When we can we let him off leash and play with a ball or fresbie, let him in the backyard which is small and let him run around. He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough. I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.
We have been disciplining him, good firm NO, or OFF if he is getting on the sofa or jumping up, giving LOTS of praise when he is good, he is not a hyper dog he is just CRAZY, he serious bounces off the wall, there are bents in my wall, he runs straight into furniture, jumps down the stairs from top to bottom. I try to play with him, but that just amounts to him grabing my hands, arms, feet and hurting me, if I sit on the floor even to stretch before I go joggin with him he bites my head,shoulder, legs, even walking away saying NO does nothing until his attention is diverted to something else...cat.

Our trainer does not promote this method of extreme training, like I said she uses it as a last resort option, she used it on her dog and it worked, she is no mean trainer, she is one of the nicest people I have met. She is the trainer/temperment tester at the humane society that did maddox's test and said he was an extreme case that needed lots of attention, something we were not made aware of.
I have talked with other trainers about him and all were surprised of his behaviour, they all consider him outside the norm.

*and he doesn't stay in the crate all day, if he behaves well outside the crate then he gets to stay out, but as soon as he misbehaves we correct him with the collar and put him in the crate. If he is good we take him out, this is only a temporary 1-2 week bootcamp, at this point I have no other option, we have done everything that we have been told to do, it hasn't been working.

..perhaps this was a bad idea posting

No. It wasn't a bad idea to post. Now that I have gotten over what your trainer told you, let's try to talk this through. LOL!!

Crating the dog more is going to make the problem worse, not better. Dogs don't think like people do and crates should never, ever be used as punishment.

Yes, it sounds like this dog has more energy then you do. Yes, I think that you might try to contact a local rescue and see if they can help you find a new home for this dog - maybe with someone who does some long distance running. :D

MyBirdIsEvil
August 22nd, 2006, 10:03 PM
The only time a crate can be used for obedience is for actual working dogs like attack dogs, racing dogs, etc.. The crate is used as part of a very regimented and structured enviroment.

The dogs are crated most of the time (until they're older), and only taken out to work.

This does the OPPOSITE of what you want out of your dog.

The working dogs are left in crates and then taken out to work because once they're taken out they'll have tons of energy and that energy can be concentrated on doing their work. They learn that once they're uncrated it's time to go to work.
Even though these dogs are crated when not working they are exercised and taught their job 4-6 hours a day and also given several walks and time with their trainers. Your dog is not a working dog, so crating it constantly will NOT have a desired effect and it will NOT get enough exercise and mental stimulation.

Puppyluv
August 22nd, 2006, 10:06 PM
Yes, it sounds like this dog has more energy then you do. Yes, I think that you might try to contact a local rescue and see if they can help you find a new home for this dog - maybe with someone who does some long distance running. :D
God, if only I wasn't going back to school next week.... I would love a second running partner.

Prin
August 22nd, 2006, 10:06 PM
That's the thing, puppies are such a serious committment.:shrug:

pitgrrl
August 22nd, 2006, 10:17 PM
I don't think you people are reading my posts, he gets 20mins walk before 7am, 10min run between 7-7:30, 12-1 my gf is home, takes him out for a 20min walk, back home by 5, gets a 20-30min walk, then i get home take him out for a 10min walk, he then gets 3 more walks from 7-10:30 about 10-15mins each.

Here is an example of my dog's schedual. My dogs are pit mixes (boxer maybe?), so the type of dog is comparable, but keep in mind that they're almost 5 now, so they've slowed down a wee bit. I also don't have a yard, so the short walks would probably be done away with if I did.
7am-20-30min walk
8:30am-1 hour walk
1pm-20-30min. walk or pee break and playing/training in the house
5pm-1-2 hour walk + playing when we get home
11pm-20-30 min walk

This keeps them sane, so it's the minimum and we try and go on hikes when I have days off. Having been in what sounds like exactly your position, times 2, I really think the best thing to do is to make tiring your dog out your goal for the day. Once you've done that, do short, fun training times to teach your dog commands that you can practice/use through out the day.
Is Maddox food driven? Try using his dinner as training treats, make him work for handfuls of kibble, but make sure you're teaching him what you want before you start correcting him.

Maybe if you were specific about what he's doing people could offer suggestions. I know you mentionned he's crazy and leaves dents in your wall (just be happy he doesn't have a taste for drywall), so do you not want him running around the house? Jumping? Mouthing?
All these are things you can work on, but they take time. Again, re-directing his energy and focus is really helpful, because you're not going to get a docile, lazy dog, so let him use his energy to do something good instead of things that annoy you.

Ryanh
August 23rd, 2006, 08:23 AM
I can see all you people are devoted to your dogs which is fine, you spend 70% of your free time playing/walking/training your dog(s), the problem is for me I cannot do that, now your probably saying well you shouldn't have gotten the dog then...I agree. We had been looking for a dog for a long time, we knew it would take time out of our lives, but not so much that we have no life thats why we had been looking for a low-medium energy dog that can play when you want it to, but could be content lying around the house all day. Thats why we had initially being looking for a dog such as a bull mastiff, since they were hard to find we kept looking at the local humane society, we had walked dogs on the occasion, but every dog we walked was nuts, but then there was Maddox, he walked like a gentleman, didn't jump up or bite, and generally was calm...his temperment test was A's across the board, and the people there all said he was a great dog etc etc. I know find out they said whatever they had to say in order for someone, us, to adopt him being that his is a pitmix they just wanted to get him out the door.
So a week after getting him all hell breaks loose so when I say I don't have the patience nor the time to walk him more we do now you have to understand where I am coming from, we wanted the complete opposite kind of dog, now we have what we did not want from the beginning. Now rather than be a coward and throw in the towel as soon as he misbehaves we have done training etc generally everything people have suggested here, we have bought a second car so that its easier to get home for lunch to take him out, that there was not an expense we could afford, but we did it regardless. We have had our brand new leather sofa chewed up as well as my old TV sofa, I realize this is typical behahavior for his age and breed, but in my opinion this is outside the normal behavior. We have been open minded throughout the past 6 weeks, we have tried our best to make this work, but we have to draw the line somewhere, we already spend nearly all of our free time with him, yet you all tell me its not enough, I'm sorry, but I want to enjoy my life and not let it be passed by catering to my dog's every need. If we had a lower energy breed like a mastiff I would likely not be posting all these rants, I would be much happier.

So with that said we are going to try this training our trainer suggested which is not punishment, but it is to teach him that we our boss and not him, I know you people don't agree with it, i don't really either, but it has worked before so its worth a try, at this point its worth a try, if there is progress by next monday then great, if not then we will probably be looking for someone to adopt him, someone who can fullfill his needs. So if anyone knows of someone or they themselves are interested in adopting him please let me know, he has all his shots, microchiped, crate, toys, etc. If we can find him a better home I am all ears, but the last thing I want is for him to go to someone who will abuse him, I care about the dog enough to not let that happen.


here is a pic of him when we got him http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d116/Rhutchins/Misc/113_1388.jpg

jawert1
August 23rd, 2006, 08:41 AM
No offense, but any young dog, regardless of breed (bull mastiffs included) will come with a standard set of peccadillos, expecting that it will work around your time frame/energy limitations/financial situation is not reasonable. I applaud that you've done a good deal to work around some of these issues, but dogs don't just get trained one week and remain solid the rest of their lives. It's a huge committment that needs to span many many months until they're out of puppy hood and then the terrible teens. Please don't give up on him yet, it would be a travesty to see you rehome a dog that clearly has potential and likely a death sentence for him.

BTW, I have not one, but 2 dogs at home, and I do not spend 70% of my waking time working with them. We've gone through some relatively insane moments, such as my English Pointer destroying an entire room of carpeting in 30 minutes, my Shepherd/Chow mix eating a curtain tie that required surgery 7 months later. Not to mention the even now constant training I do with them. It's work, assuming you can just adopt any animal or even a "low energy breed" (sorry that's a fallacy) that will do what you want it to on your time frame isn't a good idea. Good luck, I hope it works out and you all get through this without giving him up.

phoenix
August 23rd, 2006, 08:45 AM
Ah, memories of matty...

You say they aren't reading your posts... Here's what you wrote at first:

I take him for a 1 mile run at 7am, then a quick walk before I leave for work at 8ish, my fiancee comes home at lunch for 1hr, takes him for a walk, maybe 10mins since thats all the time she had, then my 5-5:30 one us us are home and he will get another 10-15min walk and usually 2-3 more walks that evening. I try to play with him off lease with a ball, but if someone else is walking their dog nearby I can't since he goes after them wanting to play.

Then you wrote this:

I don't think you people are reading my posts, he gets 20mins walk before 7am, 10min run between 7-7:30, 12-1 my gf is home, takes him out for a 20min walk, back home by 5, gets a 20-30min walk, then i get home take him out for a 10min walk, he then gets 3 more walks from 7-10:30 about 10-15mins each. When we can we let him off leash and play with a ball or fresbie, let him in the backyard which is small and let him run around. He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough

So what's the truth? Somewhere in the middle?

Prin said that exercising a dog doesn't make him more hyper. That's true, to some degree. Exercising a dog for 10 minutes DOES make him more hyper. Imagine, "why are we stopping now? I was just getting going! Well, what else can I do now with all of this energy?"... 10 minutes is just a warm up.

I can't tire out my dogs by myself. I could walk all day with them and nothing. So, for my lab/boxer mix, we taught him/encouraged him to play fetch. He runs HARD for at least 1/2 h a day. We also got him a playmate (new puppy) and they entertain each other and tire each other out. I take him swimming often. And, we meet up with a doggie playgroup when I'm free at 6:30 to go (that's when they meet). They go to my parents' farm every couple of days.

They need OFFLEASH exercise in a safe place at this age. Do you have a dog park nearby? Anyone you know have a dog that can play with yours (is yours socialized to play with other dogs?) Teach him a game that involves HIM running around (not you!). Also, training, obedience etc can be tiring for dogs- mental stimulation.

I became an expert on tiring dogs out when I got Sam, who can outrun and outswim any dog we've ever met. When other dogs are lying in the dust with their tongues on the ground, Sam is still bounding around. He's 21 months old. You have a long time to go until your little guy grows up and calms down.

If you can't change your lifestyle or your thinking for this dog, I'd suggest looking for a home (outside Ontario?) with more running room with a person who keeps their dogs with them more. I'd also say, don't get another puppy. Maybe look into an older, senior dog who does a lot of lying around and could use a home in their later years. But even then, it's not all roses. Where you don't have to deal with energy, you're dealing with the issues around age. If you don't have the patience or time to deal with all of those things, don't get a pet.

technodoll
August 23rd, 2006, 08:51 AM
ryanh, i feel your pain. our dogsitter (who is also a very good friend of mine) has a high-energy pit and as much as i love that dog, he drives me crazy and i cannot imagine living with such a demanding dog. he can run for hours chasing the ball, running, playing, jumping, etc and then come home and bounce off the walls, "talking" and barking and ripping all his toys apart - i find it totally exhausting. His dog will be 2 years old this November and he's had him since he was a puppy, no signs of any "calming down".

i chose my dogs (akitas) because they are VERY quiet in the house but high-energy when i want them to be, ie outside on walks, hikes, at the park, etc. the perfect match for our lifestyle.

no-one else is in your shoes except *yourself*, so please do what you have to do, if it means rehoming your beautiful boy so both he and you can finally have the life you want, then so be it. sometimes it's just not "meant to be". I know you love him and have done your very best, so don't feel guilty. Personally I would find this boy a good, loving working home (perhaps a farm that needs a dog to herd something?) and then go adopt another dog of a different breed, PLEASE research your breed next time - don't get a "working dog" if you can't deal with all the high-energy - there are so many out there looking for the perfect home, i'm sure you will find your True Love out there.

anyways... hope you make the right decision for YOU, and keep us posted ok? the very best of luck to you :dog:

~michelle~
August 23rd, 2006, 09:12 AM
hey i know you're feeling like your getting alot of slack right now, and i do feel for you. You are not alone Im sure many people have felt frustrated and at the end of your rope and wondering if they made the right decision with their dog (I know there may be people who said they didnt, but you do eventually forget all those feelings and move on) However you do need to do whats best for you and the dog. now i dont agree with the "bootcamp idea" but i can understand that you are looking to your trainer for guidence so i can see why you are considering it, the only thing i can say about excessive crating is that your dog is in his teenage years this is very important to bone development (they may not grow in height alot but the bones thicken up and get stronger) excersize is VITAL TO BONE DEVELOPMENT but i do understand where you are coming from trying what ever you can just might need to try other avenues. The only advice i can really offer is find out what you and your gf are willing to do to keep this dog. How much longer are you wiliing to try? how much more training? what methods do you want to look in to? Find out what you are willing to do and do it. I hope it starts to work for you, if you and your dog can get through this you will have such a strong bond. However if you try everything you are willing to do and it still isnt working and your not willing to try any more, you should find the dog a place where it can have everything it needs. I know you're afraid of what you might do if you cant get your dog under control and thats not good. I know you like your trainer but if her methods have not worked for you, you may need to try others. I wish you the best of luck. and my heart really goes out to you I know how tough the situation you're in can be Ive seen people in it before and when they got through it they then couldnt imagine their life without their dogs now, and Ive seen other people get so frustated they just throw their dog in a run in the backyard with no interaction, which is not the life for a dog. Best of luck to you and your girlfriend.

vfrohloff
August 23rd, 2006, 09:21 AM
We had been looking for a dog for a long time, we knew it would take time out of our lives, but not so much that we have no life thats why we had been looking for a low-medium energy dog that can play when you want it to, but could be content lying around the house all day.

If you wanted a low-medium energy dog that could be content lying around the house all day then why on earth did you get a puppy? I'm not trying to be mean here, but c'mon. You should have gotten a Greyhound, they are one of the few breeds that actually are content to lie around the house all day.

LavenderRott
August 23rd, 2006, 09:36 AM
WOW.

I think that you have a bit of an incorrect picture of the people that are here. While we are very aware of the needs of our dogs, we certainly do not live exclusively for them!

I am a mother of 3 and up until recently worked in Retail Management. I rarely worked a 50 hour week - most often it was closer to 70 - and I still managed to raise two lovely daughters, give birth to and nurture a son AND include a very well behaved rottweiler in our lives. And I can promise you, I found time for myself.

If you are dividing your time between work, your fiance and "the dog" then you are going about this all wrong. The dog should be included in things that you do on a daily basis.

Honestly, I think that rehoming this dog may well be best for both you and the dog. It really sounds like you "settled" for this dog when what you really wanted was a mastiff and you resent this dog for a number of things including not being the dog that you thought you were adopting. Anyone in rescue will tell you that you can not get a true reading of a dog's temperment while that dog is in a shelter. The constant crating, other dogs and people coming and going without offering any affection is VERY stressful. You can, usually, do a temperment test and find out if a dog is aggressive though.

If you are interested, I do know a couple of people that do pit bull rescue in Canada. I am sure that can help you find a screened home for your boy if that is the route that you want to take.

BTW - bull mastiffs are working dogs. While they may not be as fast moving as your current dog, they are a lot of work or they get bored. A bored mastiff can destroy a house and become aggressive. If you want a dog that fits into your schedule, I would suggest a rescue greyhound. They will be perfectly happy to walk with you and will sleep plenty.

OntarioGreys
August 23rd, 2006, 09:44 AM
There are different ways to exercise a dog and give them a good work out with you having to be a superstar athlete

for example a lurepole

http://users.planetc.com/garrett/lurepole.htm


fetching in water

Tie a rope to an old tire and let encourage him to play tug of war with it

A well rinsed out large vinegar bottle half filled with water and you can do some lawn curling and let him pick it up and run around with or retrieve it for you

Agility classes for physical and mental stimulation

winter he can pull a sled/tobogan by then he should be strong enough to pull and child possibly even your wife, or even a couple of concrete blocks

my lab used to be able to pull me 145 lbs around at 1 year old and he was crazy like yours maybe even more so, walks were no where near enough to wear him out at that age and I am definitely not a runner, he needed heavier physical exercise to help wear him down enough to be easier to live with, actually he became a joy to live with once I figured out to type and amount of exercise he needed and his destructiveness ended, One of the problems I have with the trainer advice of no walks and leaving him crated, I that it would have resulted in a very bored Jazz and with no outlet to release his pent up energy he would have been even more destructive

technodoll
August 23rd, 2006, 09:49 AM
some people use treadmills to wear out and "build up" their hyper-dogs! :thumbs up

http://www.jogadog.com/

Key Benefits

End unruly behavior
Reduce risk of serious injury
Provide versatility in exercise
Develop muscle strength & stamina
Control your dog's exercise regimen
Provide exercise in adverse weather
Prevent obesity & associated problems
Improve health, well-being & longevity
Correct faults in movement on-the-fly
Exercise many dogs quickly & effortlessly
Condition muscles to show ring speed
Maintain a vibrant coat year-round

SarahLynn123
August 23rd, 2006, 10:07 AM
You said people were not reading your posts about exercising your dog. They were not refering to the exercise you give him now, its the plan you are going to implement (bootcamp). NO walks, In the crate all the time unless he is good. (He will not be good though, because he will be hyper so....back in the crate.)


So he is to stay in his crate all the time except to go outside, when he is outside we go to one place and thats its, no walk. We are also to get a pinch collar and we let him out of the crate, if he goes nuts or goes after the cats we use the collar and put him back in the crate and keep doing this until he learns that he must behave if he wants out.

technodoll
August 23rd, 2006, 10:12 AM
yeah... confining a hyper puppy to a crate all day long and only letting him out for pee breaks with a pinch collar for corrections, then back in the crate when he misbehaves (because he will) is not only cruel, it will drive your dog crazy and make him 10 times worse. it is IMO abuse. :( please... either find ways to exercise him the way he needs or rehome him. for BOTH your sakes.

Puppyluv
August 23rd, 2006, 10:37 AM
You said people were not reading your posts about exercising your dog. They were not refering to the exercise you give him now, its the plan you are going to implement (bootcamp). NO walks, In the crate all the time unless he is good. (He will not be good though, because he will be hyper so....back in the crate.)

I was referring to the current exercise, and I did read everything you said. My girl is 26 months now, and she still has crazy energy. I have yet to meet a dog that runs as fast as her for as long as she does. Any puppy will be energetic, and they need long periods of exercise. You don't have to do everything he does. Some great suggestions have been made: offleash is great, swimming is a great way to tire them out, fetch, games, mental stimulation, it's all key to calming him down.

jessi76
August 23rd, 2006, 10:38 AM
So he is to stay in his crate all the time except to go outside, when he is outside we go to one place and thats its, no walk. We are also to get a pinch collar and we let him out of the crate, if he goes nuts or goes after the cats we use the collar and put him back in the crate and keep doing this until he learns that he must behave if he wants out. Sounds extreme, but its suppose to teach him to behave when in our house and to teach him who is boss.

I would RUN, not walk, away from this "trainer". It doesn't matter that she's only recommended this method a couple of times, the fact that she recommends this AT ALL is infuriating. This is no way for a 9mth old pup to be treated. and if you crate trained your dog, you should be prepared for your hard work to come undone. Once you teach your dog his crate (his safe spot, his den, his room) is for punishment, there is no going back.

this extreme "bootcamp" is not going to teach your dog who is boss. I feel very sorry for your dog if you go through with this, and I feel even worse about the type of relationship you will create.

There are ways to limit your dog's freedom without resorting to this extreme crating. I really hope you don't make this dog worse, and THEN send him to a new home. he'd be better off going to a new home without experiencing this type of "training", because it will be hard for a new owner/home to undo.

surveychick
August 23rd, 2006, 10:39 AM
after the walks & playtime..keep the dog on a leash attached to you. This has been suggested to me and i'll be trying it myself starting today! So i'm not preaching that method---just passing info along.

As for the cats---I also have 2 and what works best for me is having a baby gate up in two places to contain the dog AND allow the cats their own "safe" space. The cats can go wherever they like so if they get chased they can scoot over and be safe..or if they are feeling sassy they can come in and interact with the dog---which they are doing more and more.

Anothing thing--we recently acquired a BOUY--yes a bouy after a walk on the beach. We brought it back home and Barrett (golden retriever) plays with it endlessly! Great find! He burns off loads of energy on it.

Best of luck.

Prin
August 23rd, 2006, 10:50 AM
While I can't say my day completely revolves around my doggies, I can say that I do my best to meet their needs. If Jemma needed 3 hours of exercise a day, I'd give it to her. And I wouldn't consider it a pain to do so, I would consider it having fun with my goofy dog. And if my man feels neglected because I spend so much time with the dog? I bring him too. And then when everybody is tired and worn out, we can watch a movie while the sleeping doggy gives us peace.:shrug:

So then you'll rehome this one and get a mastiff. What then? You want a mastiff because of the energy, but what happens when he's too strong for you to train? What happens when the food bills sky rocket along with the vet bills? What happens when he doesn't fit in your car anymore? Would you get another puppy? What happens if the puppy turns out exactly like this dog?

If you really want a dog that lazes around, really, really consider getting an older (i.e. past age 5) dog. Even then, hopefully you'll have the patience to let him adjust to his surroundings before you give up.

Ryanh
August 23rd, 2006, 11:12 AM
I can understand everyones anger towards this training, my trainer warned me that this will SEEM very mean and cruel and that the trainer who designed this training method has many people against it and many for it, but in fact it is not, but she does say the dog will not like it, but what it teaches the dog is that he must look to ME if he wants to get something. I know there are other methods to teach a dog that I am the boss and not him, but we have tried, he is extremely stubborn and just will not respond to that training so this is why we and our trainer have had to resort to this. Its either this or we rehome him and perhaps make him worse than he is now. It seems all you people can suggest is more exercise, that will not stop him from terrorizing my cats or running wrecklessly through the house, it might make him sleep a bit, but nothing stops him, he needs to understand that WE are the leaders and he is the follower and that we control his actions, if this crate training is what it will take then so be it, he's not going to get abused while in his crate, he certainly won't like it but its certainly better than giving him up, at this point nothing else has worked so please keep your nasty 'me and my trainer are evil people remarks' to yourselves, that is just negative flack and I don't need that.

I should have never posted here, big mistake...it seems that nothing I say is right, I'm done here.

Prin
August 23rd, 2006, 11:14 AM
he certainly won't like it but its certainly better than giving him upBetter for whom?

LavenderRott
August 23rd, 2006, 11:18 AM
I'm really sorry that you feel that posting here was a mistake.

I am saddened by the fact that you are perfectly willing to listen to ONE person tell you that crating your dog for long periods of time will solve your problem but you are unwilling to listen to SEVERAL people tell you that it will make your problem worse.

I think that you need to mentally stimulate the dog more. I think that you need to put a leash on this dog and put the other end of this leash to your belt-loop. THAT gives you more control over what this dog does then that crate will.

Well, let me know when you want to rehome. I am certain that I can put you in contact with someone who can help you find the PERFECT home for this dog.

Puppyluv
August 23rd, 2006, 11:34 AM
When Maddox was at the SPCA, he was in a cage all day except to go out to pee/poop. Now he's in a home and you want to treat him as if he's still there. Even if this some how calms him down, you will have mentally scarred him. PLEASE don't follow through with this shoddy training advice.
Ohhhh I hope Tenderfoot sees this soon:fingerscr

mafiaprincess
August 23rd, 2006, 12:13 PM
I have a high energy hunting dog. I didn't chose her, I rescued her from my roomie who was goign to put her in a pound with a 7 day no kill policy.

I knew nothing about dogs, and the first puppy year sucked. I didn't know that short walks daily weren't enough. It's all I'd seen people do.. I worked all winter 40 hours a week skiing, and I was too tired to do much with my hyper dog. The more crate time she got the less manageable she was when she was out.

This is why your trainer's advice sucks. Your dog will learn to hate the crate and potentially start resist going into it because it's no longer safe, it's just bad.

We rollerblade at top speed together, jog some I don't do well jogging.. Train for agility, and do OB

Only now do I have a fairly sane dog, but I needed to wade through the earliest puppy year (she's only 2 now though) and do a good hour or two of something hard a day.

But your revamp of how much exercise you do seems a recipe for extra hyperness along with a trainer who sounds mighty toolish.

HunterXHunter
August 23rd, 2006, 12:26 PM
Hi,

Have you tried playing tug and keep-away with him? It's VERY good exercise and tires dogs quickly (well, for Hunter at least). My almost 1-year old golden Hunter loves to play tug and keep-away and usually a 15min session will tire him (and myself) out as much as a 45 min. run. Also, how's Maddox off-leash in parks? If he's relatively good, and you've met other dog owners in your area that are ok with, why don't you let them play off-leash in the park or on the field. It's more tiring when they're chasing each other because they have to run at full speed as we, the two-legged bipedal types are too slow :p

EDIT: a bunch of short 10-20 min walks or jogs isn't nearly as tiring as you may think. Imagine doing 3 sets 15-rep bench presses per day: once in the morning, once at lunch, and once at night...not as tough as doing each set 1-min apart huh? For me, I take Hunter on a 45min jog in the morning, 45 min job when i get home from work, 15 min tug (sometimes) or a "play-date" with other dogs in my neighborhood after dinner, and a quick 5 min walk before he sleeps just so he can relieve himself again.

Hunter was a handful before as well, and I have lost it once or twice with him, but as he grows up he's gotten much much better, and he's not even 1 yet! And reading "Marley and Me" by John Grogan helped me view things humorously. Look, I know it's :frustrated: at the moment, but even you said he's making progress right!? So that show's you're at least doing something right. Hang in there for a little longer -- you may have a bad boy now, but get through this and you'll have a loyal friend for the next 15 years.

Oh, and btw, people HAVE recommended the pinch collar to me and they all said it works well, but for me, I guess I rather Hunter listen because he respects me and treats me as a friend rather than because he fears me. Just my $0.02. But whatever you decide on, I hope it works out for you.

technodoll
August 23rd, 2006, 12:54 PM
ryanh you are looking for a "quick fix" and have been suckered in to this "trainer's" advice because that's exactly what she's selling. but "quick fixes" rarely work and if they (temporarily) do, it's for the wrong reasons. do you really want to beat this dog's spirit out of him with such a cruel 24/7 crating method? and it doesn't just SEEM cruel: IT IS. might as well bring him back to the spca where he will have more freedom :(

you want your dog to respect you as Pack Leader. ok what have you done to earn his respect? have you followed the Nothing In Life Is Free method consistently? faithfully? you seem brainwashed into following this wacky woman's advice to get your dog to submit, but you won't listen to the collective YEARS of training HUNDREDS of dogs from the members here, methods that are tried and true.

yet... we'll still be here willing to help you when you come back with a dog that is worse off than before, in a few weeks :shrug:

pitgrrl
August 23rd, 2006, 01:06 PM
I know there are other methods to teach a dog that I am the boss and not him, but we have tried, he is extremely stubborn and just will not respond to that training so this is why we and our trainer have had to resort to this. Its either this or we rehome him and perhaps make him worse than he is now. It seems all you people can suggest is more exercise, that will not stop him from terrorizing my cats or running wrecklessly through the house, it might make him sleep a bit, but nothing stops him, he needs to understand that WE are the leaders and he is the follower and that we control his actions, if this crate training is what it will take then so be it, he's not going to get abused while in his crate, he certainly won't like it but its certainly better than giving him up, at this point nothing else has worked so please keep your nasty 'me and my trainer are evil people remarks' to yourselves, that is just negative flack and I don't need that.


Maybe if you shared with everyone what other methodes specifically you've tried it would be helpful. People might have suggestions for you to deal with specific problems.
If you are really worried that Maddox is not seeing you as leader, rather than just having lots of energy and litlle training, you might want to look into something like Nothing In LIfe Is Free, basically a way to re-enforce your place in the "pack" with no confrontation or forceful practices.

http://www.pbrc.net/training_nfl.html

The impression I've gotten from people's posts, and certainly what I have been trying to communicate, is not that excersise is the miracle solution. Excersise alone is not going to train your dog for you, but I think stepping up the activity level will allow your dog to be in a better state of mind to focus on learning what you want from him.

Because you said he is stubborn and doesn't respond to training, I'd be curious to know what type of training you're doing. My two really didn't pick up on alot of stuff for a long time, and I was rather prone to believing that they were stubborn or not so bright. Once I figured out that maybe the problem was me, and switch to different ways of teaching them things, it was amazing how quickly and enthusiastically they started to learn. Perhaps you could look trainers in your area that use different methodes than your current one.

One last note on re-homing Maddox, please realize that you have a pit mix in a province with a ban. This doesn't make for a great environment in which to be finding homes for dogs effected by the ban. I hope that if you do end up giving Maddox up, you will do so with an awarness of what responsibilities his next owner will have to live up to, not only in dealing with Maddox himself, but also because of the implications of the breed ban.

jiorji
August 23rd, 2006, 01:07 PM
i don't think he\s reading this anymore and I don't think he cares for your suggestions. WHen someone isn't willing to admit they're doing something wrong there's no progress :( I think a post saying "it's best you take your dog the the local SPCA" would've gotten a better response:rolleyes:

LM1313
August 23rd, 2006, 02:05 PM
Ryan . . . if you're still reading this . . .

The trouble with keeping the dog crated all the time is that your dog's energy level is not going to drop . . . He's going to be even more hyper when he comes out. Believe me . . . with my dog you could TELL if she'd been inside all day. And that wasn't even shut in a crate, that was with the run of the entire house. And, wow, if no one got a chance to play with her for a few hours? Then she was a real handful inside the house. She would be bouncing off the walls.

I know it's hard when you're dealing with puppy puddles and a bouncing adolescent ball of energy, but believe me it will all be worth it in the end. My dog started hyper and ended up being a perfect lady with training and maturity. Consistency, communication, and patience are the key. :)

More obedience training for your dog would also be a good idea . . . It will keep you established as "pack leader" and is also just good training and mental exercise. It doesn't have to be "serious" stuff, after you teach the basics you can move on to "shake hands" or "roll over." My grandma had a dog that was trained to say hamburger. ("Hmm-brrr-grrrrr!") ;)

Ryanh
August 23rd, 2006, 02:54 PM
You people should read what your saying, then maybe you will understand why I am getting upset, calling me brainwashed or a sucker sure isn't going to make me asking for more.

I read that link that pitgrrl posted and yes, we have been following that way of training, the problem is that dog owners/trainers are so firm on their own ways that I keep getting different advice, 'oh that person is wrong, my way is right" who am I suppose to beleive when I keep getting advice from all sides, that there is frustrating because I am doing my best, but for some its all wrong and for others is all right....see where I am coming from. This is why I am sticking with my current trainer so no sense in trying to convince me otherwise.

Going back to that link I read, yes we are following that idea of training, we have been doing this consistantly for maybe 4 weeks. When I take him for a walk I say "outside" he now knows that mean outside time, but in order to go outside he must sit. I will hold the lease by the front door, I tell him to sit, if he sits he gets the lease on and some praise. Once outside if he pulls he goes nowhere, I just stand there like a tree, no pulling back at him, once there is slack in the lease or he sits I start to walk, he pulls again, I stop and keep doing this. Some days he walks the perfect lead, but most he just pulls and as soon as there is slack and i start walking he lunges forward. If he keeps doing this he loses his chance and we go back inside, but so far that has made no progress, tried the Gentle Leader and it works only when he walks, most of the time is spent rolling around getting tangled in the leash.
For feeding time he gets it at the same times each day, but in order to get food he must sit, once he sits I will motion to put the food bowl down, if he gets up to grab the bowl which he generally doesn;t do then we start over, once he sits and I can lower the bowl down half way without him moving he gets his food.
For play time he gets to play when I want to play, if he wants me to throw his ball, frisbee, etc he must sit and he does that every time, no sit, no ball, that there is fine except coming back we need to work on.
Inside the house if he jumps up on me when I'm on the sofa I will say OFF and get up and walk away, same thing if he jumps up. This has not worked, he will just follow me bitting at my arms, legs, bum (ouch!). I have also tried making him sit when he does this, he will sit, but as soon as I sit back down he goes nuts again.
When he chases the cats I say NO or AH! something to get his attention, but that never works, he is just hell bent on playing with the cats. When I try to remove him from the situation he snaps back as if its play time and runs away from me. The only way to stop it is to remove him from the room, I put him in a different room and close the door.
When he runs around the house I say NO and attempt to stop him, but that turns into a catch me if you can game, I say Maddox, downstairs and he listens, he does to the top of the stairs then runs the other direction, usually upstairs to where the cats are hiding under the bed and proceeds to bark at them. I end up having to grab him by the collar and move him to another room, if I don't do that he just keeps misbehaving, no command has worked. This is where he shows clear signs to me of not respecting us and showing that he is the Alpha.
When he chews something bad or is just being bad i also get his kong or other toys and put in his mouth, I either get him to play with that toy for 10mins or he just ignores it and continues to misbehave.

So that is what training he is getting, I can't see how this is wrong.

I admit he needs more mental stimulation and we will give him that along with more exercise, but the problem is he is the leader and that we need to change. Everything that I have posted above shows that I am following the no free lunch method or something very close to it and still we have made little progress. So you have to understand why I am going to try this other method, please keep in mind this is not going to be a long 2-4 week training regiment, we are going to try it for a couple days, if there is no progress or I see that he is getting worse then I will look for an alternative, 3-4 days of this will not hurt him, to me its the equilalent of sending a bad child to their room, once the kid is good he can come out, if he is bad they go to their room.

Prin
August 23rd, 2006, 02:59 PM
I think what you are doing is ok. The only thing I would change is the sit. Some dogs (especially the stubborn ones) will do the bare minimum just to get their way. So he'll sit because it's not that challenging, but it doesn't mean all that much to him.

My Boo is like that. So I get him to do a shopping list before he gets what he wants. I do a sit, lie down, head down, 'dead', stand up, whisper, wave before he gets his treat. Might sound absolutely crazy, but that is what Boo needs to fully understand that I'm deciding what he is doing and when has done enough to get that cookie. :shrug:

HunterXHunter
August 23rd, 2006, 03:17 PM
My Boo is like that. So I get him to do a shopping list before he gets what he wants. I do a sit, lie down, head down, 'dead', stand up, whisper, wave before he gets his treat. Might sound absolutely crazy, but that is what Boo needs to fully understand that I'm deciding what he is doing and when has done enough to get that cookie. :shrug:

Hehe, yeah I agree with that too. I make Hunter do doggie push-ups (sit, down, sit, down, sit, down) before he gets dinner :evil:

MyBirdIsEvil
August 23rd, 2006, 03:25 PM
I can understand everyones anger towards this training, my trainer warned me that this will SEEM very mean and cruel and that the trainer who designed this training method has many people against it and many for it

As I said, that training method is perfectly well and good for a WORKING dog.
The method your trainer wants to use (at least from what you typed), is normally for dogs that are taken out for walks/socialization etc., at certain times during the day, and then they do heavy work for 4-6 hrs a day or however long the breed is normally meant to work.

YOUR DOG IS NOT A WORKING DOG.

Leaving your dog in the crate more than it is now will only make your problems worse.

Your trainer either does not understand your situation, your dog, doesn't know what he's doing, or all 3, I don't know, but what he's suggested is a bad idea. There are all kinds of bad trainers out there and just because one says "this is my method do this" does NOT mean it will work.

Does it not tell you something that NOT ONE person on here has agreed with this training method? People on this board use all kinds of training and often we disagree with each other, but no one in their right mind would agree that crating a young hyper puppy for more time than is needed is a good idea.
He's already crated too much as it is.

I am NOT attacking you for wanting to rehome your dog.
Some dogs just don't fit peoples situations, and yes it was a bad idea to get ANY puppy when you don't have the time for it.
If you do ever get a dog again maybe try to find an adult dog who needs a home and is being fostered by someone. That way you know for sure whether the dog is calm or not and fits your lifestyle.

BTW, nothing in your last post is abnormal for a puppy. People expect too much from their puppies too young. Why is he so hyper I walk him for this long? Why won't he obey my commands every time? I mean, he knows the commands. Why does he pull on his leash, it's taking sooo long to teach him not to pull!!! and all kinds of other stuff. It's the owner who is impatient.
What if you had a 3 year old child and all you did was tell them to sit in their room all day, but you would take them out to walk around some and play with their toys for a few minutes? Would this be much of a life for a child? That's how it is for a puppy. Puppies are hyper and need LOTS of attention and exercise to stay mentally stimulated and healthy.
Would you expect a small child who's been locked up all day with not enough to do would come out of their room calm and interested in you? Heck no! Neither will a puppy! That's why many people adopt ADULT dogs, because people that know about puppies realize they're a HUGE commitment.

Keep this in mind, service dogs usually aren't even chosen until they're 12-14 months old. You can't tell much of a dogs personality and you can't tell really how they'll be as an adult until they're over a year old and sometimes even 2 or 3 years old. Dogs under this age also have an extremely short attention span, so training is often frustrating and not worth it because a slightly older dog will learn things faster. Yes, a puppy will pick things up fast, but an older dog will actually remember these things and utilize them better.
That's why you got a seemingly calm puppy and were disappointed when it was hyper after you brought it home. Puppies personalities and activity levels change from day to day. You can't tell what a puppies temperment is going to be from day to day.

I hope this puts things in perspective.

LavenderRott
August 23rd, 2006, 03:34 PM
The training he is getting sounds excellent! Time, consistancy and patience is the key. This is a puppy afterall.

While I understand that you feel that crating the dog as discussed earlier in this thread is much like putting a child in time-out, your pup is not a child and doesn't think like a child.

If your trainer thinks that this will work, well, try it for a couple of days. But remember, this may well backfire on you.

MyBirdIsEvil
August 23rd, 2006, 03:39 PM
LOL, putting very young children in time out doesn't work either.
But that's another subject ;) .

Ryanh
August 23rd, 2006, 03:54 PM
The training he is getting sounds excellent! Time, consistancy and patience is the key. This is a puppy afterall.

While I understand that you feel that crating the dog as discussed earlier in this thread is much like putting a child in time-out, your pup is not a child and doesn't think like a child.

If your trainer thinks that this will work, well, try it for a couple of days. But remember, this may well backfire on you.


thank you! so you can see I am doing things right, but not everything is working. My trainer was the one who suggested much of what you all say i should be doing so she is not crazy. I know this new method might very well backfire so I am doing it cautiously, if there is no progress we will stop it.

If anyone has any advice on teaching him that I am the alpha, something that I have not tried I am all ears.

Golden Girls
August 23rd, 2006, 03:59 PM
Ryan. I will not post all that I think but I do want to point out that you have adopted this dog from the SPCA only 14 days ago, that's not giving him enough time for anything. He's already 9 mths, gawwd knows what life he had before. I think your expecting wayyy too much of him and there is too much punishing going on and not enough loving IMO

Please re-consider the boot-camp thing :fingerscr

Dog Dancer
August 23rd, 2006, 04:05 PM
Ryanh, please don't feel like people are picking on you. I know it's hard to read some of this stuff, but I'm glad that you're sticking it out and reading on still. I have to admit, and I'll keep it short, I think crating all the time is the wrong way to go. Period. So to help enforce your alpha status, someone else also suggested leashing your dog to you. Get a long leash that can go around your waist, or clip onto your pants (make sure you have a good belt on in case he pulls;) ). Keep him attached to you at all times. Make him lie down beside you when you're watching tv, eating, etc. If he tries to go and chase a cat you can stop him and correct him. You control everything he does and he can't run away from you. You still control his every move, but he's not locked in a box. Much nicer for both of you. You'll both learn more respect and trust that way. Maddox will learn to trust your judgement and that you are both alpha and good. You want him downstairs, tell him downstairs and then take him down. Then you can unhook him and gate him downstairs if that's the case. But you control him all the way, don't give him the choice to run back upstairs away from you. I know you can do this Ryanh, we are smarter than our dogs. You can make Maddox respect you. He should always be on a leash around the cats so you can stop his bad behavior. Use a long leash if you want then you can play with him a bit too, but when he's too rambunctious, haul him in for a down stay. Keep your foot on the leash right up by the collar to keep him in a down until you release him. It's all a matter of patience and as everyone else has said - consistancy. Please consider some of these ideas as they are much less drastic than the alternative and much more likely to work. Plus you will still be able to crate Maddox when you really need to and he won't hate it. Good luck to you all. Stay with us please the people here really do only want to help you and Maddox.

MyBirdIsEvil
August 23rd, 2006, 04:15 PM
thank you! so you can see I am doing things right, but not everything is working.

What do you mean working? A puppy isn't a machine, you don't just turn a key or something and it starts.
It can take MONTHS to get a puppy to understand the rules of the house and for him to catch on to what you teach him.

Don't think I'm attacking you, but it seems like you're expecting too much out of your dog too soon. No one expects children to learn things right away, but for some reason everyone expects a puppy to do this.

If you got him from the SPCA:
1. He was probably taken away from his mother too soon, so he wasn't taught very good manners.
2. He hasn't had much structure or exercise and is unsure of himself.
3. He just moved into a new home, he's confused and everything is new to him.

Training a dog has more to do with reinforcing the rules than expecting the dog to just do what you want when you want.

It sounds like you're doing everything right as far as training, feeding, etc. at the moment, but you're expecting him to just suddenly start doing what you say. It takes months of structure, training, stability and frustration to actually get a dog trained. As far as your dogs hyperactivity, if he doesn't get more exercise, he will always be a bit hyper. It also takes many dogs until they're 2-3 years old before they ever calm down and become and actual adult.

LavenderRott
August 23rd, 2006, 04:16 PM
Honestly, YOU should be taking him to his classes. And YOU need to work on his obedience for 15 or 20 minutes at a time a couple of times a day. EVERY day. This structured time together will teach you how to read his body language and will teach HIM to listen to you. While a bit more time consuming then some methods, the results will be stronger.

This dog needs to trust you. By treating him fairly and consistantly, you will earn a very loyal friend. But remember, sometimes you take two steps forward and one step back.

Prin
August 23rd, 2006, 04:18 PM
Or sometimes its 2 steps forward and 3 steps back for a little while and then you hit a point where you're just leaping forward.:cloud9:

MyBirdIsEvil
August 23rd, 2006, 04:33 PM
If anyone has any advice on teaching him that I am the alpha, something that I have not tried I am all ears.

I wanted to mention, you don't teach a dog that you're alpha, he just knows. Every interaction with him is supposed to show him that you're alpha.

Don't "watch" him constantly. Don't watch him running around and playing and smile at him 'cause it's cute, this reinforces his behavior.

Don't come down to his level, don't squat down or kneel or sit down with him.

Don't hang your head, this is a HUGE mistake that a lot of people make. You should have your head pointed foward, and if you need to look down do it with your eyes not your head. This looks and feels funny at first, but if you're tilting your head down to look at the dog andto give it commands that's a submissive stance.

The dog should always be on lead if he doesn't have a good recall. Every time you call him and he doesn't come it's reinforcing that he's in control.

Never chase your dog. Pack leaders are followed not the other way around. By chasing you'r following your dog. Try turning around the other way and walking the opposite direction, while clicking at him, but don't use any words. If he comes, pet him and pay attention to him. Every time he runs away to do something bad IGNORE it, he should not be off leash anyway if he's running away from you.

Always feed him AFTER you eat. Do what you've been doing and wait until he's calm to let him have his food. Personally I would feed him in his crate if you don't already.

These are just a few things you should be doing.

Most importantly DON'T give commands you can't enforce. Don't say "NO!" unless you can actually stop him. Don't say "come" unless you can actually make him do it. That's why he should always be on leash, having free roam of your house NEVER teaches a puppy that you're pack leader, not to mention they can break things, get into stuff, etc..

[edit] I wanted to add a few more things.

Don't let the dog walk in front of you on leash. I saw that you're trying to teach him not to pull by doing the "stand still" thing, but he shouldn't be ahead of you if his pulling is that bad. Every time he tries to get ahead of you stop and make him move behind you again.

Don't let him go through doors before you, ANY doors. You always go out first. This is another reason that your dog should always be on leash right now. Letting him run through the house he's going from room to room at his own leisure. He should be waiting for you to enter each room and go through any door before him.

Putting your dog in his crate for time out does not reinforce pack leadership. The more time in his crate the more unstructured non-learning time he's having. He's sitting in his crate with no mental stimulation and being taught nothing. He's not being shown who's pack leader and he's not learning anything.

LM1313
August 23rd, 2006, 04:39 PM
If you only got him two weeks ago, he is probably still "settling in". :) Do you happen to know how long he was at the SPCA? If it was for a long time, he's probably confused with his newfound freedom, being used to sitting in a cage all day. Did he come to you already knowing some obedience commands or is it all new to him? (Sorry if you answered some of these questions before, the thread is just so long! ;) ) Good for you for adopting an older puppy, by the way!

About establishing yourself as an alpha . . . Obedience training is a great way to promote your alphaness. So is having him do a command like sit before he goes out or before he gets dinner. :)

Also, your tone of voice conveys a lot. Don't shout at your dog when he starts doing something naughty, that will sound like hysterical barking. Instead, say "NO", very deep, self-assured, and no nonsense. Think Darth Vader, or maybe your mother when you got in trouble as a kid. Yeah, think of a mom who has put up with the kid enough for one day and has resorted to using his full name. (Michael John Jones, you are in SERIOUS trouble, young man!"

When you give obedience commands, use a confident voice. You aren't begging your dog to sit. You aren't asking him to sit. You aren't threatening him "sit or else." You are TELLING him to sit with the confidence that he will obey, justify your faith in him, and make you proud. Once you get the dog to do the command, even if it took five tries, tell him, "Good DOG!" in a I'm-so-proud-of-you voice. Did you ever have a parent, sibling, or relative who you just thought the world of? One you always admired, who you would listen to even when you were being a sulky teenager with everyone else? That's the way you want your dog to view you. It won't happen overnight, but it's so worth it once you get there! :D

Mental stimulation . . . My dog loved to play "find the biscuit." I would have her sit then go into another room, out of her sight, and hide two doggy biscuits. For example, one might be tucked by her doggy bed and another might be sitting upright by the leg of the coffee table. Then I'd call her in and say, "Find the biscuit!" She would sniff and snuffle all around looking for the biscuit. She loved it and it's easy for the owner because you just hide the biscuits and stand back and watch and encourage. You might want to try it outside at first, because he needs to have good enough "house manners" that he knows not to rip apart the sofa looking for the biscuit.

Some people teach their dogs the names of their toys, which I never did, but sounds like fun. I know someone who trained their dog to bring them various household items and it saved her life! She was feeling faint so sat down on the couch and then was too weak to stand up again, so she told her dog to bring over the cell phone. Only she hadn't taught him what the cell phone was yet, so he tried various objects . . . First a sock, then the TV remote. He finally did get the cell phone and she called 911. :) (I wouldn't try anything electronic until you're sure he knows it's not a chew toy, though. ;) )

Ryanh
August 23rd, 2006, 08:31 PM
14day??? ummm, i think i posted the wrong date, we got him July 8th, so 6weeks.

And we are taking him to training, have been for 3weeks so far and he is doing great, we have been spending time practicing the sit, down, stand, etc at home, and generally everything that has been mentioned here.

Our big problem is getting him to stop when he runs around the house or goes after the cats, its easy to say don't run after him, but how do you stop him??

As for the leashing in the house, we are now doing that all the time, when he's out of the crate he is on an 8ft leash, he goes where i go, he eats when I let him eat and goes out when I say he can go out, he goes towards the cats and he gets corrected. So far he is doing good.

Perhaps I have expected more too soon, a mistake on my part, perhaps yes, but given the fact that he has pushed me beyond my limits kills any patience i have of course causing me to post up this rant of a thread.
What i find the hardest posting here is that its very hard to explain stuff on the internet, it may seen from what i am saying that he is just the average active puppy, but on my end of things reading your posts I can see that he is worse than the average puppy. I'm not going to explain since like I said its too hard so just take my word on it.

From now on the both of us will dig deep for more patience to make this work, the idea of rehoming him is not going to happen from what I can see, as long we take more steps forward that backwards he will be ok.

Prin
August 23rd, 2006, 08:42 PM
Our big problem is getting him to stop when he runs around the house or goes after the cats, its easy to say don't run after him, but how do you stop him??The only way IMO would be to leash him in the house.:shrug: You could maybe get a baby gate to block off a room so when the kitties run, they have a safe place that the doggy can't get into...

H.P.
August 23rd, 2006, 08:53 PM
Hi! You might want to do a search for posts by "sprayeddog". While it gets a little heated at times, and sadly he did decide to re-home his dog, it has TONS of great advise on training for a lot of problems. I have used several ideas that I learned there.:)

OntarioGreys
August 23rd, 2006, 09:26 PM
If anyone has any advice on teaching him that I am the alpha, something that I have not tried I am all ears.


Ryan, the way you are training is okay.
As for your boy trying to be be alpha you are wrong he is not going around thinking he is the boss, he is like the little toddler in the grocery store would starts screaming and "I want the candy" while in the check out line and mom says no dogs like kids go thru learning phases and challenging phases

Think of the rebellious teenager they go thru about 5 years of constantly testing and pushing their limits, it does not make them the boss, but they will push to see what they can get away with, and if they are bored and not kept busy especially during the summer months when they have no school routine and many of their friends go away. they tend to be total pains and can get into major trouble, the same goes with the 1 to 3 year old toddler they may learn they are not supposed to touch some ornament, lets say they are getting bored because mom is busy with something else, they start realizing they can get attention by getting into mischief so they go run over and touch or knock the ornament to the the floor. This is where getting sufficient mental and physical stimulation comes into effect, if he is getting sufficient then he is going to be resting and more relaxed and is not going to bored and trying to get negative attention.

I do know someone that did the type of training that was recommended , the dog kept having to go back into the crate because he was so full of pentup energy he could not help acting like a wild man, he was spending almost 24/7 in the crate, his frustration ended up leading to aggressive behaviour the owner refused to listen to the advice of other saying that he need out and more exercise, eventually the dog became so frustrated he ended up attacking her and was put down, Your dog is at a critical stage in his life now 6 months to 9 months now he is a juvenile turning adult and this is the time when some of his personality starts to form some dogs will become unsually shy or start showing aggression, you do not want to make him overly frustrated at this stage of his development.


MyBirdIsEvil mentioned training for working dogs, if you look at racing dogs they do not recieved any formal training till after they are a year old, they are allowed to be puppies with their littermates just carefree and playing, this is true with with many so called working dogs they often do not get any training or correction until they are nearing the age of working ability before that point they are allowed to just be pups, the crate training for greyhounds starts around 14 months old when much of the puppy energy is worn off, the racing greyhound get no formal discipline or correction the worse correction they know is if they get into a fight the trainer will holler at them and smack a riding crop on the fence to make a loud cracking noise, without correction or behaviour training they are some of the nicest calmest, well mannered pets upon retirement, structured routine from 14 months on to retirement (usually at 3 to 5 years old) creates these calm and well mannered dogs and they adapt very easily to a pet life is structured routine is given to them when they arrive in the home, my youngest was 18 months old when I got her she only had one month of crating because she was held back from racing, she was a flop on the track because of her shyness/fearfulnes, I have had her for 2 1/2 years not once have I raised my voice to correct her, the correction I have done is with eye contact and a quiet voice not above normal talking voice and even that is rarely down when she chewed on the furniture I did not do any correction because I knew she was chewing out of anxiety to calm herself, I simply just sprayed it with bitter apple and gave her something appropriate to chew on, when she chewed on the appropriate item a quiet calm praise was given as she became more comfortable with me and going outside I started playing with her out in the yard with the increase exercise she had an outlet for her anxiety and the chewing stopped, when she started nipping in play, I would make a yelping sound I stopped play immediately and stood with my arms crossed in front of me with my back to her and refused to pay any attention to her for a couple of minutes.

do you know of a supervisor who is heavy handed with the rules and not always fair with the employees under him? Do the employees respect him and are fully cooperative with him or are the challenging him and ready to make his life as miserable as he is making theirs. Dogs are much the same way they are willing to cooperate, listen and behave when they feel their leader is fair, but act up and cause trouble if too harsh and overbearing or weak or wishy washy with the rules whether it is an alpha dog or human. Dog training/ obedience classes is not so much about training the dog but about training the owner to be an effective leader that your dog will respect and want to please

Prin
August 23rd, 2006, 09:39 PM
Hi! You might want to do a search for posts by "sprayeddog". While it gets a little heated at times, and sadly he did decide to re-home his dog, it has TONS of great advise on training for a lot of problems. I have used several ideas that I learned there.:)
Yeah, that's why everybody was skeptical of this thread at first, but Ryanh, you're so much more reasonable, it's amazing. :grouphug: And you're actually trying so hard. It's great.:highfive:

MyBirdIsEvil
August 24th, 2006, 04:55 AM
Great post, OntarioGreys.
You explained the thing about working dogs much better than me. :D

Ryanh, after reading further posts, it seems like you're doing great, just stick with it and don't get too aggravated, it WILL pass if you're fair and persistant. Your puppy is going through his teenager stage which, as ontariogreys mentioned, makes him want to rebel and test you. When puppies go through this stage it seems like they've just suddenly forgot all their training or they don't want to listen to you. Don't worry you're not alone, one of my puppies is 10 months old and still in this stage (she's also dominant which doesn't sound like your dog so be glad!), and my collie puppy is just entering this stage now at 8 months, so imagine trying to handle TWO adolescent puppies, I feel your pain!

Our big problem is getting him to stop when he runs around the house or goes after the cats, its easy to say don't run after him, but how do you stop him??

Put him on a long line. You can get 20-50 ft lines for horses to attach to his collar, or go to the pet store and get a 15-20 ft training lead. I would suggest the ones for horses because they're usually smoother material and will slide right through your hands without giving rope burn. If you don't attach him to anything there's really no way to enforce the command unless you're as fast as him, which I doubt, lol.

I would teach him the stop command (actually you can use any word you choose). Let the rope slide through your hands until he's almost to where you want him to stop then say "stop" or whatever word you pick, and have someone else distract him with something (say a can of pennies or anything loud that will get his attention). When he stops, praise him and throw him a treat.
He should stop when you distract him, but if he doesn't you have the long line to stop him with so he won't just go do what he wants.
I'm sure there's other ways to teach this, but this is the easiest to me.

Make sure you find something that will definately distract him. If whatever you try first doesn't get his attention try something else until you do. You can teach the stop command by just stopping him with the leash, but this doesn't teach him to stop when you say stop, it just teaches him that when you say it while he's on leash he should do it. The thing is to teach him to stop whether he's on leash or not.

Dog Dancer
August 24th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Ryan, so glad it sounds like you're on the right track. Take your time and dig deep for patience. You will make it with your boy. He's still adjusting and so are you. Big changes for everyone! Reading your last post actually brought tears to my eyes. We really do care for all of you and only want the best. I'm sooo glad you have stuck through our tough love posts and gotten to the good stuff. Excellent stuff. You're going to find the leash in the house will help alot. All the best to you guys, keep us posted - and post some more pics please.

Esaunders
August 24th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Here's a few tricks that work with my high-energy pup, he's currently 9 1/2 months so similar age and stage.

1) The leashing in the house works. My trick is sticking the loop of a 6' leash over my foot, around my ankle, plopping on the sofa and watching tv. (ie ignore the dog) Do this for the next few months. You are an anchor, ignore any fussing/pulling/whining. Praise quietly when settled and go back to the television. You get to chill out and train simultaneously. :thumbs up

2) Fewer exercise sessions but longer. Take him out half as many times for twice as long and make them all broken up training sessions. Don't expect immediate obedience, look for improvement over the session as the 'edge' comes off. Dog gets same exercise and you donít feel like its ALL about the dog. :frustrated:

3) If you can get to a leash free, go. They keep me, my bf and the pup sane. If there aren't any around, look into getting a Springer bike attachment. It'll let you bike safely. Bike the dog instead of walk/running.

4) Deep breath, have a beer/glass o' wine/martini (with leash around your ankle) and repeat "Its normal, it'll pass and someday it'll be funny" (I had to do this a couple days ago when my pup ate my gearshift knob :eek: :yell: )
Repeat several times (the mantra, not the martini ;) )

5) Find a dog dag-care you can use occasionally. When you really need a break from the energy, make a dog day-care appt. If they aren't used to it every day, one day-care day can tire them out for about 1 1/2 days. :highfive:

dogmelissa
August 24th, 2006, 03:04 PM
Ryanh, please check your Private Messages; what I have to say doesn't need to be posted here.

Melissa

Ryanh
August 25th, 2006, 09:36 AM
Just an update, Maddox is doing much better. We have been using this extreme crating as a guide, but honestly we have not had to crate him that much. He has been well behaved enough that we leash him in the house all the time and only have to correct him on the occasion if he goes towards the cats. The only time we crate him while we are home is when we are eating dinner, cooking dinner (sometimes) and showering, basically anytime we are not able to hold his leash. And to my surprise he actually goes to his crate voluntarily, the first day he put up a huge fuss with the crate, wanted nothing to do with it, but now he loves it. Walking him around the house with the leash is much better too, we now lead rather than him yanking us around the house, i do my best now to make sure I am always ahead of him.
he still does get fussy when he is in the crate and we are home, so dinner time can be filled with lots of whining, but it only lasts a few minutes.

And also when we take him out of the crate he will for the most part sit there until I get his collar and leash on and again for the most part wait until I say "let's go". If he pushes out he gets the door shut on him and we wait and try it again.

So far we are making some big steps forward, hopefully there won't be many steps back, but I'm sure there will be.

chico2
August 25th, 2006, 09:50 AM
Ryanh,that's great news:thumbs up
Hopefully once again,a tragic rehoming has been avoided,much due to the very knowledgable dog-owners on this Forum(I not being one of them:D ):dog:

Dog Dancer
August 25th, 2006, 10:42 AM
:highfive: That's such great news Ryanh for both you and Maddox. I'm glad to hear you aren't going to the extreme with the crate. Do you feed him in his crate so he doesn't see it as being a bad place. You can feed him with the door open so he's not locked in, just getting good stuff there. Glad the leash thing is working too, it really is a good tool. Maddox will settle (in a couple years:eek: ) into a wonderful dog who will reward you ten fold or more. Stick with him Ryanh. Way to go. And you're right, there will be backwards steps, just try not to be too harsh on Maddox and remember, he's a :dog: :thumbs up

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 12:25 PM
Yey! That's good news. I'm glad things are getting better.:grouphug:

dogmelissa
August 25th, 2006, 03:28 PM
And also when we take him out of the crate he will for the most part sit there until I get his collar and leash on and again for the most part wait until I say "let's go". If he pushes out he gets the door shut on him and we wait and try it again.


Just wanted to respond to this part: is there a reason you take *off* his collar in the kennel? What kind of collar is it? It certainly would be a lot easier (and faster) if you have a flat (or rolled, anything that's not a training collar) on him at all times (with his ID tags), and then you can just clip the leash to it when you take him out. Unless you're referring to the prong collar and you use this in the house as well, in which case, yes, please take it off him when he's in the crate (or at any time when he's not "in training").

Don't forget to introduce the word "wait" when you're letting him out of the kennel, going through doorways, putting his food down, etc. It's equivalent to "stay" but meant to be a short-term command, sort of like "leave it". It's a command to remain calm and in whatever position he's in (sit, stand, down) until he's told to release (Ok! or Let's go). You posted earlier that you would lift his food back up if he got out of a sit, keep doing it, but give him the command "wait" until he's allowed to have it (eventually this will mean that you will have him in a sit, be able to put the food down and even walk away before he's given permission to eat it). Vary the amount of time that he has to wait for things, and obviously start out with the tiniest amount of time possible and work your way up. This is good in the kennel, too... as you tell him wait, you can open the door, put his collar on, clip the leash to it, stand up, clip the leash to your belt, rearrange your treat bag, and *then* tell him "let's go" and out he comes (hopefully calmly). Or at the door before walks, you can put him in a down wait, put your shoes on, your coat, get your umbrella, realize you've forgotten your keys in the other room, go get them, open the door, and then go. Make sense? A dog who learns this command understands that he's not going to be abandoned or that you're forgetting about him, and he will get to do something fun or have a meal, but he just needs to be patient and wait until you're ready to do it. I use this command a *lot* with my dog. .

Melissa

phoenix
August 25th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Just wanted to respond to this part: is there a reason you take *off* his collar in the kennel?

It doesn't matter what kind of collar. Dogs can hang themselves in crates. Ryanh is right to take it off.

Prin
August 25th, 2006, 03:47 PM
I agree. Collars and crates are dangerous, whatever the collar.

dogmelissa
August 25th, 2006, 04:05 PM
I agree. Collars and crates are dangerous, whatever the collar.

To each his own; my dog is more likely to break his leg sticking it through the bars of his kennel than to do any damage to himself with his collar somehow getting tangled on it. Depending on the collar, the crate/kennel and the dog, it could be dangerous, but I highly doubt that most people here take off their dogs regular collar when they put them in their kennel (for any reason).

Training collars, though, should be removed any time that the dog isn't actively being trained. I can't tell you the number of dogs I've seen who had a choke chain as their *only* collar, complete with rabies and ID tags hanging off them. However part of that goes back to training collars not being used correctly.

Ryanh
September 3rd, 2006, 09:20 PM
Just thought I would update on Maddox's progress.

This crate training and limited outside time that everyone was against seemed to work wonders. We crated him about 70% of the time and the rest of the time he was on a leash in the house, outside time was limited to just bathroom time, thats all. Well after about almost 2 weeks of it he finally respects us and listens, something that was not the case before. We weined him off this training and now he rarely runs the house or chases the cats, a simple and abrupt AH!AH! stops him in his tracks, he comes when he is told to come, he goes upstairs or downstairs when he is told to do so, when he gets a little nuts we say BEDTIME and right into the crate he goes, no need to even shut the crate door much anymore, we're just so amazed with his response to bedtime, its such a big step forward. He has just turned into a big suck, and is so cute now....well most of the time now. He still whines or barks when he leave the house, but that is getting better, i think and he has been waking us up at night to go out, in fact last week neither one of us slept a full night, but that seems to be getting better.
If I look at the big picture he is still a puppy and does annoying puppy stuff, but overall he is way more under control that he ever has been.

LM1313
September 3rd, 2006, 10:20 PM
I'm glad things are working out for you and Maddox. :) Be sure to post lots of pictures!

chico2
September 4th, 2006, 03:47 PM
RyanH,thank's for the update,I am sure everyone is pleased you did not just give up on Maddox:thumbs up
I am also sure he'll reward you tenfolds in the future,by being a welltrained loving companion.
Pups are pups and will behave like pups,but it sounds like you have most things under control:dog:

mummummum
September 4th, 2006, 08:38 PM
Good for you and your partner for sticking it out through this tough time Ryanh. Anyone who has raised their dawgs from puppyhood knows what a seemingly out-of-control-rollercoaster-ride it can be some days (weeks...months:D ). I'm sure if you continue with obedience classes - heck maybe even something like agility to really exercise his ya-yas - Maddox will grow emotionally and mature into a wonderful dawgy!:fingerscr

jawert1
September 4th, 2006, 08:50 PM
Thanks for the update Ryanh, it's great news to read that Maddox is doing so well, and your sanity is somewhat returned. Often times, dogs respond differently to different training, I'm glad you've found one that works for all of you. Keep up the great work, and we'd LOVE to see some pictures of your pup :D