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Wellness??

worrier79
August 1st, 2006, 11:34 PM
Any imput from people that have dogs currently on Wellness dry dog food would be great!

I just switched my guy over to this and was told this week that it has caused skin problems in some dogs lately. Is there any truth to this????? I am sure he does not want any skin problems.

Thank you!!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Prin
August 1st, 2006, 11:40 PM
No, wellness is good. Every dog is different and you just have to find the food that your dog does best on. If your dog happens to be allergic to it, it could cause itchiness, ear infections, itchy anal glands, etc but being that the wellness foods don't have corn or wheat or soy, it's not likely that your dog will be allergic unless you have a really sensitive dog.:)

Basically, Wellness is a good food, but you have to see how your dog likes it and how his body reacts to it. Just be sure to switch gradually and if you were feeding a lesser quality food before, you might have to reduce the amount you feed as well to get the stool to firm up properly.

Good luck.

worrier79
August 1st, 2006, 11:54 PM
No, wellness is good. Every dog is different and you just have to find the food that your dog does best on. If your dog happens to be allergic to it, it could cause itchiness, ear infections, itchy anal glands, etc but being that the wellness foods don't have corn or wheat or soy, it's not likely that your dog will be allergic unless you have a really sensitive dog.:)

Basically, Wellness is a good food, but you have to see how your dog likes it and how his body reacts to it. Just be sure to switch gradually and if you were feeding a lesser quality food before, you might have to reduce the amount you feed as well to get the stool to firm up properly.

Good luck.

Thanks!

Although, usually he just eats until he is full and has been doing well on that regiment. Something else to think about. I switched him very gradually and all seems fine so far.

Prin
August 1st, 2006, 11:57 PM
Sounds good. Some dogs did have a problem with it when Old Mother Hubbard changed some of the formulas without warning people beforehand. But again, there would only be a real problem in really sensitive doggies.

worrier79
August 2nd, 2006, 12:03 AM
Sounds good. Some dogs did have a problem with it when Old Mother Hubbard changed some of the formulas without warning people beforehand. But again, there would only be a real problem in really sensitive doggies.

My vet recommended this food because of allergies so I hope she's right.

worrier79
August 2nd, 2006, 12:04 AM
Do you know what has changed in the formula? I was not aware they had changed it recently. There had to of been a reason for the change, it would be nice to know what that was.

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 12:17 AM
They just "enhanced it". Probably more vitamins and more probiotics and things. You can always email them and ask...;)

worrier79
August 2nd, 2006, 12:21 AM
They just "enhanced it". Probably more vitamins and more probiotics and things. You can always email them and ask...;)

lol well of course they will tell me it was "enhanced."

I hope it was not a price cutting thing. Thanks again for the info.

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 12:23 AM
Probably not. They were among the first to remove the bad synthetic vitamin K from their foods, so we know they're at least trying to do things right.

If you email, just say What do you mean when you say the food has been "enhanced"?
lol

rainbow
August 2nd, 2006, 05:18 PM
They were among the first to remove the bad synthetic vitamin K from their foods, so we know they're at least trying to do things right.

Wellness was not one of the first to remove menadione from their food. They have only just recently removed it this year after much persuasion. :dog:

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 06:04 PM
Really? Considering there are more companies that still haven't removed it than that have, I figured they were pretty good.

Puppyluv
August 2nd, 2006, 06:09 PM
Wellness was not one of the first to remove menadione from their food. They have only just recently removed it this year after much persuasion. :dog:

I had layla on Wellness from 6 months, and when I started it (over a year ago) they didn't have menadione, so it's been a while longer than that Rainbow.

odindog
August 2nd, 2006, 06:40 PM
Wellness has changed the formula b/c they wree looing a marketing battle. Dogs love chick fat... big surprise.

Welness never used to spray their food with the fat, but dogs were takingt o foods like Old Roy, Iams, dog chow, nutro, sciene diet, pro plan, nutrience, and such. (pretty much all kibbles spray theire food after it has been extruded, it just depends on the brand, as to how many laygers they put on it. Foods like Old roy, that actulay have NO MEAT SORCED PROTIEN, it mainly comes from soy, have like 20 coats. But foods that up the scale a bit like dog chow, and Iams, will put about 10 coats on, and foods like Nutros and such will only put about 5 coats on.)
So Wellness has always been a baked food, not extruded and never used to spray with chicken fat. But in Jan of 2006 they changed allthat and they are now an extruded food, and spray a small amount of fat on the food so dogs will eat it. becasue if your dog wont eat it are you going to buy it?? Didnt think so.

Look for the older bags, smaller pet shops should have some in stock somewhere, unless their local rep came and replace them. the new bags say "food" after the dog, or puppy on the bottom of the bags. the older ones dont have the "Food" listed at the bottom.

Get in touch with the owner of the store, if they dont know which is which, i would think twice about buying there. Any one who cares to sell it should care to know what they are selling!

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 06:52 PM
Wellness has changed the formula b/c they wree looing a marketing battle. Dogs love chick fat... big surprise.Umm, where's the chicken fat?


Wellness Super5Mix Chicken Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Rice Bran (from brown rice), Rye Flour, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Whitefish, Tomatoes (natural source of lycopene), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flaxseed, Ground Millet, Carrots, Apples, Spinach, Blueberries, Sweet Potatoes, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride

Puppyluv
August 2nd, 2006, 06:57 PM
Umm, where's the chicken fat?



Prin, I was wondering that too. In their FAQ section, they say this:

Q: Is your new flavor in the dry dog formulas sprayed on?

A: Most of our flavor is achieved in the recipe/dough. We do add a little to the outside of the kibble to appeal to the dog's sense of smell.

I don't know what this "Flavour" is. Being curious, I sent off an email, and will let you know when I get a response.

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 06:59 PM
They say flavor is this in their ingredients breakdown:
natural flavor:
Natural flavor is a powder or liquid made by taking clean animal tissue (usually liver) and breaking it down using enzymes. Natural flavor is used for its ability to improve the taste of dry foods. It is sprayed on the exterior of dry food or dusted on after canola oil is sprayed on the dry food.
No fat there either- liver instead.

Puppyluv
August 2nd, 2006, 07:06 PM
well, canola oil is fat, but not really much of a concern compared to a nice dose of chicken fat sprayed on.:yuck:

odindog
August 2nd, 2006, 07:09 PM
powder or liquid made by taking clean animal tissue (usually liver) not always liver...marketing

Natural Chicken Flavor - thats where it would come in

Dont get me wron guys, I think wellness is a great food. They are the only one who uses actual human gratd chk. they debone, they have maintained their integrity through the whole marketing rig-a-ma-role.

but keep in mind Companies want your MONEY!!! no kidding they are not going to tell you taht they use disgusting fat rendered useless for consumprion. But what do you think your getting for two bucks a pound. I cant even buy fruit for that!!

Just dont be koy and fall prey to all the gimicks and *** covering that is going on in the corperate world today.

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 07:13 PM
but keep in mind Companies want your MONEY!!! no kidding they are not going to tell you taht they use disgusting fat rendered useless for consumprion. Including your company that is so much better than all the others? I see a pattern.

odindog
August 2nd, 2006, 07:19 PM
hey, im not sellin to you ar anyone here, i dont need your money Prin, dont you worry. I do this b/c my dog eats it. I want to give treats for training, so i make them. i had others aproch me and ask me to make it for them too.

so you can keep all your money and spend it on all the pet gimicks you want

I jsut want it to beknown that KIBBLE IS DISGUSTING> There are more than enough suggestions everywhere to support it.

I could never type enough words to express my disguset with what people put into thier dogs stomachs.

RESEARCH, if you found out dogs and cats were in your food, would you feed it...

just a thought.

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 07:33 PM
RESEARCH, if you found out dogs and cats were in your food, would you feed it...How do you know what you're feeding? Do you raise the cows, chickens and grow the veggies yourself? How do you know what sort of science (good or bad) is in the food you eat every day? In the world we live in, we don't really have control over what we eat, even if we think we're buying whole raw unprocessed ingredients.

After looking at all the options, I've settled on a food for my doggies. The result has been soft, shiny fur, higher energy, great teeth, and great overall health. :thumbs up:

worrier79
August 3rd, 2006, 12:25 AM
So does anyone know offhand what available food don't have the layers of fat? My dog will eat everything so I am not worried about that. I guess I will look around for no 'natural fats' but there are good fats too right? They should be more specific. So any 'natural flavors' ??? Because they all seem to have this.

Old bags; how long would they be good for?

jesse's mommy
August 3rd, 2006, 05:31 AM
worrier79, Wellness is just fine. It's a good high quality food for dogs. The post starting with the marketing battle was a threadjack and you really should pay no mind to it. You've brought the subject back to your original concerns. As for Wellness, I had Jesse on it for a while and she did wonderful with it. I switched because I was having problems with my supplier, not the food and now she is on Merrick.

mastifflover
August 3rd, 2006, 07:45 AM
Every bag will have an expiry date stamped on them. I always look for the newest stock but make sure you check because some stores stock sits on the shelves and some are lazy and do not check or rotate there stock. If you find expired food tell them and check the next time to see that it is gone if not email the manufacturer and they will send a rep and replace the stock in the store. I learned the hard way with a bag of Canidae it had bugs in it the store was not rotating the stock and the food was 3 months expired. I emailed Canidae and they had a rep out to the store delivered me 2 bags to my door with a buch of other goodies and an apology even though this was not there fault but the fault of the store. Most companies take it very seriously especially those that promote such healthy eating for our pets. There reputation depends on freshness and quality. Wellness is a good food and I believe you have to find what works best for your dog and sometimes it is a lot of trial and error but when you find a good one you will see it in your dog. Look at Prins dogs coats and eyes they are beautiful and that has a lot to do with food

OntarioGreys
August 3rd, 2006, 09:39 AM
So does anyone know offhand what available food don't have the layers of fat? My dog will eat everything so I am not worried about that. I guess I will look around for no 'natural fats' but there are good fats too right? They should be more specific. So any 'natural flavors' ??? Because they all seem to have this.

Old bags; how long would they be good for?


Where the problem comes in on dog food is if the fat source eg "Animal" if not specificied then it likely comes from a renedering plant. When I look at a label I want to see as specified meat source fat eg "Chicken" fat.

Dogs need higher amounts of fat than people do, dogs make better use of animal or fish based fats than plant based fats, it is necessary for good health, many people who have dogs that spend alot of time outdoors doing physical activitity in the winter months will increase their dogs fat consumption as it helps to increase their tolerance to the cold, I noticed this to be very true with my one greyhound when I had put him on a low fat/low protien diet because of weight gain he still gained weight and , I had to put a coat on him just to go potty in the yard as he was screaming from the cold. I has since put him on high protien/high fat diet and last winter he did not need a coat once just for going out to potty. And his weight decreased without the grains despite being on the high protein 42% high fat 22% diet. which is up 14% protein 6% fat most standard kibbles are 12% fat and most owners are still having to add oils because their dogs have dry flaky skin, which suggests they are not getting enough fats from the the kibble alone and that 12% is still too low

worrier79
August 3rd, 2006, 12:41 PM
Where the problem comes in on dog food is if the fat source eg "Animal" if not specificied then it likely comes from a renedering plant. When I look at a label I want to see as specified meat source fat eg "Chicken" fat.

Dogs need higher amounts of fat than people do, dogs make better use of animal or fish based fats than plant based fats, it is necessary for good health, many people who have dogs that spend alot of time outdoors doing physical activitity in the winter months will increase their dogs fat consumption as it helps to increase their tolerance to the cold, I noticed this to be very true with my one greyhound when I had put him on a low fat/low protien diet because of weight gain he still gained weight and , I had to put a coat on him just to go potty in the yard as he was screaming from the cold. I has since put him on high protien/high fat diet and last winter he did not need a coat once just for going out to potty. And his weight decreased without the grains despite being on the high protein 42% high fat 22% diet. which is up 14% protein 6% fat most standard kibbles are 12% fat and most owners are still having to add oils because their dogs have dry flaky skin, which suggests they are not getting enough fats from the the kibble alone and that 12% is still too low

I am not worried about giving him animal fat, it's just that I would like to know what type of fat they are putting in the food. I am sure they can be more specific with types and exact amounts if they wanted to or if they were obligated to by law (which should be the case). Just listing them in order isn't enough for me I guess.

Also, I think that when there is less protein and fat in the food, the dog eats less of it, correct? So even if there is 12-15% fat he would be eating more quantity than if he was eating a richer food. I hope this is the case, otherwise it would be nice to know exactly what protein/fat levels are appropriate for animal weight, season of year, activity level, etc. I am also very weary of feeding high protein food to adult dogs if they are not racing or working all the time. Even then 42% seems so high to me (I realize for greyhounds it may be different since they are so poorly protected from the elements here in Ontario).

Prin
August 3rd, 2006, 12:47 PM
Well, being that it's natural chicken flavor, if it isn't liver, it's chicken fat or other chicken tissues.

rainbow
August 3rd, 2006, 05:29 PM
I had layla on Wellness from 6 months, and when I started it (over a year ago) they didn't have menadione, so it's been a while longer than that Rainbow.

This is the information posted on the dog food project website:

This is from Oct. 10/05:

Formula Changes, New Products and Reorganization
#32003 - 10/10/05 02:24 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



In the past few days, I have made the following updates:

1. The entire Old Mother Hubbard's Wellness line of dog food (with exception of the "Simple Food Solutions" products) has undergone a makeover, changing the formulas considerably. Super5Mix Puppy, Super5Mix Chicken, Super5Mix Lamb, Fish & Sweet Potato, Senior SuperMix and Weight Management all have different ingredient lists now, with decreased amounts of omega fatty acids and downgraded ratios, smaller amounts of holistic ingredients like herbs and probiotics (some have even been removed completely) and all of them contain menadione now.


This is from May 19/06:


It's been a while!
Admin | May 19, 2006 12:14 pm
Dear DFP readers,

I know it's been a while since the last update, but I've been so busy recently that I've had little time to spare.

I'm still around and doing my research though, new foods are constantly hitting the market and old formulas change, so it's sometimes a little difficult keeping the database current. Many updates will be forthcoming soon!

For today I'd like to leave you with some more good news about the removal of Menadione from pet foods:

Petcurean

Thank-you for your enquiry. This ingredient has been removed from our food, and will take about 6 months for us to be through the bags we have in stock.

Wellness

Since launching our enhanced dry dog food this past fall, we have heard some feedback surrounding our use of Vitamin K (Menadione). Some of the feedback was from people who were simply curious, and some of it was negative, questioning our use of Vitamin k. We listened to all feedback, re-evaluated the ingredient, and have decided to remove Vitamin K from all dry dog diets.

[...]

We will remove Vitamin K from our nutritional premix sometime in the 4th quarter. Upon the next printing of bags, it will no longer appear on the ingredient panels.

And further:

We are working to make sure there will be no confusion regarding the menadione. When we remove it from the food the bags will reflect the change. Once you see the change on the bag, menadione WILL NOT be in the food.


I have sent an email to OMH asking for clarification and will post it here when I get an answer.

Puppyluv
August 3rd, 2006, 05:35 PM
Rainbow- now I'm truly confused, because your info sounds really reliable, but when I chose wellness, Vit K was one of the reasons, it wasn't listed as an ingredient, and the owners of the pet store said it wasn't used. Granted, the ingredient list I was reading wasn't printed directly on the bag, it was a sticker, due to language laws, and I suppose there IS the possibility that it was wrong, but still, that shouldn't have happened.

Prin
August 3rd, 2006, 05:40 PM
But the dog food project only contacts by email just like the rest of us. I don't think she goes in a back door. The reps don't know much about what is going on within the company. You have to email the same person a few times before they actually start asking around.

rainbow
August 3rd, 2006, 05:43 PM
Puppyluv, I'm just as confused as you are, that's why I emailed OMH. Here's hoping I get a reply. :fingerscr

OntarioGreys
August 3rd, 2006, 07:55 PM
Also, I think that when there is less protein and fat in the food, the dog eats less of it, correct? So even if there is 12-15% fat he would be eating more quantity than if he was eating a richer food. I hope this is the case, otherwise it would be nice to know exactly what protein/fat levels are appropriate for animal weight, season of year, activity level, etc. I am also very weary of feeding high protein food to adult dogs if they are not racing or working all the time. Even then 42% seems so high to me (I realize for greyhounds it may be different since they are so poorly protected from the elements here in Ontario).



Protien and fats studies have been done at higher levels than EVO with negative effects.


One thing to start with is protein is also found in grains and corn, but it is not as usuable by a dog, the more grains and corns that is in a food the more the average dog needs to eat. So if I was feeding a food like ol' roy to an average greyhound I would need to almost 8 cups a day since there is very little meat or usuable food in it compared to 1 1/2 cups I feed of EVO. I was feeding him nutro natural choice lite also 1 1/2 cups per(the recommended amount for a 10lb dog) over 6 month period he gained 6 lbs

Sunny is not a typical dog for whatever reason he is not metabolizing grains properly. His pet weight is about 80lbs He is not an active dog by any stretch of the imagination, he spends most of his day passed out on the floor sleeping, other than to get up to eat or to go potty if he sees a squirrel or a rabbit he will try to catch it and will bounce up and down barking at it for a minute once it is outiside his range, he takes his retirement extremely seriously, even at the dog park he may have a few second run, then go wander and visit and say hi to all the other dog owners and then about 20 minutes after then time we arrived will find a quiet spot and sleep till it is time to go home, he was been the same, behaviour wise for the past 4 years regardless of what diet he has been on

If I feed my other greyhound Wellness I would need to feed 1 cup to a 1 1/2 more than I am currently feeding on the EVO because grains are not as usuable as for dogs. My eskie is also on EVO she gets 2/3 cups a 27lbs . My dogs get yearly bloodwork, they have had 2 bloodtests done each since starting EVO , there has been no change in their creatinine, bun or alt levels which would show problems if kidney or liver function problems were occurring. Sunny and Nikki are both 8 years old and Maya the other grey is 4(average activity level for a greyhound with is much lazier than most large breeds).

The original protein studies that said high protein was bad and could harm kidneys was done on rats(who are not naturally meat eaters) not dogs, newer research has now been done on dogs and even on people and they now realize the big OOPS they made. http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html the pet food industries are not willing to pull their products off the market as their is big profit in the prescription kidney diets and senior diets as they are using less less meats and more grains, they package the food in smaller bags and charge more than the adult food as they classified as speciality food, to help push senior diets they added glucosamine, but the amount added is insufficient to be value, it is a sales gimmick to help generate sales.


Dr Kronfeld reports that older dogs and dogs with compromised kidneys can easily process high quality proteins. He states that high quality proteins in percentages as high as 54% can actually kill bacteria in the kidneys and create an acidic condition that is healthier for these organs. This would be helpful for urinary tract infections and other bacteria in the dogs system. (2)
Similarly, Dr Bovee’s research in the mid 1970’s concluded that high protein levels were more advantageous to dogs with deteriorating kidneys. He reported that the kidney function was much better in dogs fed a diet of 54% protein than 27% protein, for up to two years in his studies. (This study is in complete opposition to the recommendations of the NRC (National Research Council) for low protein for dogs with renal disease.) The same studies concluded that high percentages of protein in the dogs’ diet also help to kill bacteria in the urinary tract. (3)


Another part of Dr Bovee's research
A diet rich in protein is especially important for older dogs. Senior dogs appear less efficient at metabolizing protein, so they require additional protein in their diets to help compensate. In fact, research has shown that healthy older dogs may need as much as 50 percent more protein than normal young healthy adult dogs. (6).

http://b-naturals.com/Nov2005.php

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7802397&dopt=Abstract

http://www.purina.ca/dogs/puppies.asp?article=471

Here is an article talking about fat for working dogs, my 22% is low compare to what this article talks about http://b-naturals.com/May2003.php

Prin
August 3rd, 2006, 09:26 PM
Just making sure:
Protien and fats studies have been done at higher levels than EVO with negative effects.What do you mean by negative effects? Do you mean no effects (i.e. tests results negative), or bad effects?

meb999
August 4th, 2006, 07:33 AM
Very interesting post OG! :thumbs up

OntarioGreys
August 4th, 2006, 09:25 AM
Just making sure:
What do you mean by negative effects? Do you mean no effects (i.e. tests results negative), or bad effects?

Dr Kronfeld reports that older dogs and dogs with compromised kidneys can easily process high quality proteins. He states that high quality proteins in percentages as high as 54% can actually kill bacteria in the kidneys and create an acidic condition that is healthier for these organs. This would be helpful for urinary tract infections and other bacteria in the dogs system.


He reported that the kidney function was much better in dogs fed a diet of 54% protein than 27% protein, for up to two years in his studies

High-quality dietary fat helps to increase palatability, which is especially important in older dogs because they may have a diminished sense of smell or taste. Caloric intake also may be decreased because senior dogs may lack the desire to eat. In addition, intake may be normal, but the dog may be less efficient at digesting or absorbing nutrients.

Protein
A diet rich in protein is especially important for older dogs. Senior dogs appear less efficient at metabolizing protein, so they require additional protein in their diets to help compensate. In fact, research has shown that healthy older dogs may need as much as 50 percent more protein than normal young healthy adult dogs.

The additional protein is required to maintain a geriatric dog's protein reserves and support protein turnover, which are important in helping the dog's immune system function at full capacity, Laflamme says. "Dogs that do not receive adequate protein are more susceptible to stress," she says.

The specific amount of protein needed, as a percent of diet, depends on factors such as organ function, individual dietary needs and energy requirements. In otherwise healthy animals, even mild protein-calorie malnutrition can significantly impair immune function.8 Unless a dog has clinical evidence of kidney disease or other problems for which protein restriction is beneficial, there is no reason to recommend a change to a low-protein diet.

The importance of providing adequate dietary protein to senior dogs was brought out in research conducted at the Purina Pet Care Center. In this study, 26 English pointers, ranging from 7 to 9 years old, were fed diets that were either 15 percent or 45 percent protein over several years. Dogs fed the high-protein diet maintained a directionally higher percent of lean body mass and lower percent of body fat.



Similarly, preliminary findings from the Purina Pet Care Center indicate that healthy geriatric dogs fed 45 percent dietary protein have maintained health and body condition, with no evidence of increased kidney damage due to protein intake. The evidence supports other recent research that protein at any level consistent with complete and balanced nutrition has no adverse effect on the kidneys of normal, healthy dogs.

It is known that as dogs age they become less efficient in metabolizing protein than young dogs so that older dogs require more protein than young adult dogs to fully replenish their protein reserves and maintain protein turnover.

www.working-retriever.com/library/dietper.html
"One example is research on the value of protein2. Dogs in intense training were fed foods with protein levels varying from 16% to 40%. Dogs fed the lower-protein foods (16% and 24%) had injuries during training and all of the dogs on the 16% protein food were removed from training due to injuries. Dogs fed 32% and 40% protein had no injuries during the training process. An important goal of canine nutritionists is to provide the performance dog with a food that supplies sufficient calories from other sources to allow minimal protein usage for caloric needs. This spares the protein for tissue repair, hormone production, and the other crucial functions of protein."

www.purina.com/breeders/magazine.asp?article=430
"Dogs that perform endurance sports generally need a food in which fat makes up more than 50 percent of the energy in the diet to help increase stamina and maximize energy production," says Richard Hill, M.A., Vet. M.B., Ph.D., assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the University of Florida." "Optimal dietary energy nutrient distribution is different for hardworking dogs, Reynolds says. Endurance dogs benefit from high-fat diets - those containing from 50 to 70 percent fat - because fat increases energy intake due to its density and palatability. In addition, high-fat diets fed during training help to alter a dog's metabolism so that it is better able to utilize fat and spare limited carbohydrate sources."
www.acsma.org/csmtdbt5.htm
"Fat is used by the body for energy and can be used as a metabolic water source. Fats are highly digestible, very palatable, and are an energy dense nutritional ingredient. It has an energy yield of 8.5 kcal per gram. They are also essential for the absorption of the fat soluble vitamins, A, D, E, and K. Fat provides a source of metabolic water. Fat metabolism produces 107g of water for every 100g of fat. Protein produces 40g water/100g protein, and carbohydrate produces 55g water/100g carbohydrate. Fatty acid ratio can also help to reduce the production of inflammatory mediators in canine skin, plasma, and neutrophils. Dietary omega-6:omega-3 fatty acid ratios between 5:1 and 10:1 are optimum." Feeding a high fat diet will help with hydration of the working dogs.




Furthermore, a study was designed to test the hypothesis that restricting protein intake in older dogs may protect the kidneys and experimental dogs were divided into two groups. Dogs in both groups had a kidney removed to increase vulnerability of the remaining kidney to any protein effects. One group was fed a low protein diet (18%) and the other group received a higher protein diet (34%) for the subsequent four years. Results of this study indicated that there were no adverse effects from the higher protein diet, and mortality was actually higher in the lower protein group.

Higher fat not only helps to keep dogs warmer in winter but cooler in hot weather as it helps them stay more hydrated.

For dogs that gain weight easy for example labs you want to reduce their carb intake because that is what puts fat on a dog, wheres as meat protien and animal fat builds muscles so they remain fitter

Prove in in the pictures of dogs fed raw or high protein diets

Higher protiens diet dogs with little to no grain note the muscle tone in the shoulder chest and legs and abdomen

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/coachgrieber/SequoiaRunning/320Ripped.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/3042P4240007_2_.jpg
This picture is of Sunny, he actually had went soft and pudgy but a couple months on EVO his muscles started to really develop again escpecially in the hind quarters, Sunny is a lazy grey had been off the track 4 years in this picture and is 7 years old
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/13bd3b47dc8de62d2e6cafea619b5840.jpg


Now here are dogs on higher carbs kibbles note lack of shine in the coats and less muscle definition, these are young greys off the track less than 2 years.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/4031Web_Trio.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/Bo_pelican.jpg

My Callie was on Canidae, a decent quality food, but see how her muscle dropped as a senior in 13 months and yet she was more active than most 2 or 3 year old greyhounds, she was eating 4 cups of food plus I was giving a can of ensure trying to keep the weight on her at this point she had no cancer. Sunny is the same age now as she was in the last picture but his muscle mass is still great despite being lazy as sin
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/14ef67b9d9576b6f43c093611af6555a.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/fa15a731.jpg

Prin
August 4th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Thanks, OG. :) For dogs that gain weight easy for example labs you want to reduce their carb intake because that is what puts fat on a dog, wheres as meat protien and animal fat builds muscles so they remain fitterI totally agree with that. That's why I hate diet kibble. They lower the protein and up the grains and make the fat doggies even fatter.:frustrated:

worrier79
August 4th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Protien and fats studies have been done at higher levels than EVO with negative effects.


One thing to start with is protein is also found in grains and corn, but it is not as usuable by a dog, the more grains and corns that is in a food the more the average dog needs to eat. So if I was feeding a food like ol' roy to an average greyhound I would need to almost 8 cups a day since there is very little meat or usuable food in it compared to 1 1/2 cups I feed of EVO. I was feeding him nutro natural choice lite also 1 1/2 cups per(the recommended amount for a 10lb dog) over 6 month period he gained 6 lbs


So what is the lowest % of high quality (as in high quality kibble) protein you would feed your dog? If it was not a working/racing dog?

Puppyluv
August 9th, 2006, 08:23 AM
The response from OMH:
Thank you for taking the time to write Old Mother Hubbard and Wellness. We have taken the best qualities of baking and optimized the extrusion process. This is not a "cost effective" change; the extrusion technology has finally caught-up with the baking process and in some areas exceeds the baking process. The food is extruded, and then gets cooked to make sure there is enough moisture. Density is still the same. It was high in baked and is also high now, because there is no air in the food. LESS VOLUME=HIGHER DIGESTABILITY.

We use no rendered fats, or animal fats in our foods; we use all natural flavors to flavor our foods. Natural flavor is used for its ability to improve the taste of dry foods. It is sprayed on the exterior of dry food or dusted on after canola oil is sprayed on the dry food. Our enhanced formula is preferred 3 to 1 over the older kibble product we used to manufacture. We always closely monitored what goes into our products, and oversee the process closely. This has not changed and will continue to be the case. We will always apply a holistic approach to our foods and treats.

Sincerely,

Mike Shapiro
Specialist
Consumer Affairs

rainbow
August 9th, 2006, 03:54 PM
I'm still waiting for my reply from OMH. :frustrated:

Prin
August 9th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Puppyluv, can you email back the same person and ask them what "natural flavor" is? That email didn't answer that. It did say no rendered fats, which is pretty good, but still.

mafiaprincess
August 10th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Cider ate the whitefish and sweet potato wellness for months..

2 33 pound bags no issue. Formula changed, months of issues till the bag was gone and we went to solid gold.. I found OMH at woofstock and slobberfest, and I was told the formula got enhanced twice.. the original change they made added too much insoluble fiber and therefore was the cause of my poopy dog.. They tweaked it again after and it's apparently fine.. But that was part of the enhancements they made, not that it helps on the natural flavour debate..

I got a sample pack of the whitefish food, and Cider liked it more than she ever like the old bags of it. And it didn't cause a monumental case of the trots..

I was thinking about picking up a little bag when our pile of treats is gone to use as a training treat in future for agility she liked it so much.

Prin
August 16th, 2006, 11:26 PM
I realized I might not have posted this, but this is the answer I got about menadione from wellness:
The NRC (National Research Council) has suggested that it might recommend supplemental Vitamin K as part of a standard diet, and Wellness wants to be on the forefront of nutrition and stay current with research. Why did we decide to remove Vitamin K?

Before making any decisions, we first spoke to all nutritional experts at our disposal. As it turns out, all nutritionists unanimously agreed that, although a dog will have diminished capacity to produce adequate Vitamin K (especially when on antibiotics), a dog will produce enough on their own when healthy.

Wellness is a healthy diet, supporting overall wellbeing. A dog being fed our diets is less likely to need antibiotics.

Once the NRC publishes their research findings, we will better understand their suggestion; however, for now we are fully confident that the removal of Vitamin K for these diets is the right way to go.

When will Vitamin K be removed?

We will remove Vitamin K from our nutritional premix sometime in the 4th quarter. Upon the next printing of bags, it will no longer appear on the ingredient panels.
So the vitamin K supplement in the food is menadione.:( Guess we'll stop recommending it till the 4th quarter...

rainbow
August 16th, 2006, 11:38 PM
That's the same thing I posted here on August 3rd (Post #28). I sent OMH an email the same day asking for clarification but still haven't received an answer from them. :frustrated:

When did you email them and when did you receive an answer?

Prin
August 16th, 2006, 11:44 PM
lol sorry, I'm so spacey. It was actually about a month ago.:o I totally forgot about it because the original intention of the email was about the probiotics they put in the food. The vitamin K thing was just a side thing that he stuck in there.:o I feel like a twit for not saying anything before.:o
(oh, btw, it took 3 days to get a reply)