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Siamese Persian

CoolBrinkman
August 1st, 2006, 11:44 PM
Hello everyone. I've got a 10 year old Siamese Persian mix, and I have searched everywhere on the internet but have yet to find someone who has even heard of this breed. I have searched this forum, Google, and other search engines...and still no luck. The pet store that my parents got it from said that the Siamese Persian breed was rare, but now I realize how rare it must be. Have any of you heard of this breed?

jawert1
August 1st, 2006, 11:57 PM
I think what you have there isn't a rare breed at all, but what in the dog world is known as a mutt (i.e. mixed breed, not papered or purebred). Cute cat though, looks really snuggly and I bet he's just a purr factory :)

Prin
August 1st, 2006, 11:59 PM
lol mutt indeed. Pet stores will say anything to get you to fork out some dough... Looks like a DSH to me (domestic short haired).:thumbs up

(btw, I don't see either of the breeds you were told were in there...)

CoolBrinkman
August 2nd, 2006, 12:51 AM
Ahh thats cool. From what I've observed, the Long hair = Persian, Color = Siamese... maybe. :p

LavenderRott
August 2nd, 2006, 01:05 AM
Beautiful cat, but I am seeing a lot of Tabby in there. At least from that picture.

MyBirdIsEvil
August 2nd, 2006, 01:34 AM
I hate to tell you but, that kitty doesn't appear to have much if any persian or siamese in it (definately not half and half). I think the pet store probably just picked up a stray kitten or someone brought a cat in, and they decided to pick a couple of breeds so they could sell it for more money.
Most cats who have siamese as one of their parents come out looking VERY siamese, and if not at least appear to have some in them, so I'm guessing this is just a normal tabby cat.
Either way a persian/siamese is not considered a breed any more than mixing any other set of cats together is.

LM1313
August 2nd, 2006, 01:51 AM
Your kitty looks like a sweetie, but I don't see any Persian or Siamese in him. I think he's a lovable domestic shorthair. :)

This is what my Siamese / DSH mix looks like. He's got orange points and a bit of the Siamese face, but not as much as a real Siamese would.

http://www.superpony.com/Images/Kitties/04_30_06/Walkies3.jpg

OntarioGreys
August 2nd, 2006, 05:42 AM
I agree , nothing about it looks siamese/persian to me either, and the colouring is definitely not siamese



Persians can some in tabby stripes like my Umbra

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/fcf4c6d1.jpg


Himalayans were developed by breeding Persians to Siamese inorder to get the saimese colourpoints and this is the himalayan
http://www.cfa.org/breeds/profiles/jpgs-bob/him3.gif

LavenderRott
August 2nd, 2006, 09:29 AM
OG - Isn't Umbra a tortie?

chico2
August 2nd, 2006, 11:40 AM
35yrs ago,we had a Siamese Blue-point/and probably Himalayan cross,whom we STOLE from an abusive owner when we moved:eek:
I have a pic somewhere,but he had everything from a BP Siamese,except he had a really bushy tail,blue-eyed and beautiful:love:

Prin
August 2nd, 2006, 11:43 AM
Ok, wasn't there a thread somewhere recently that said Himis and Persians were the same?:confused:

OntarioGreys
August 2nd, 2006, 02:45 PM
Ok, wasn't there a thread somewhere recently that said Himis and Persians were the same?:confused:

The Persian is a widely recognized and popular breed and formed the basis of the early hybridizations that resulted in the development of the Himalayan cat. The early evolution of the Persian most likely occurred on the high, cold plateaus of Persia (now Iran and Iraq). When these cats with a longer, silky coat were brought to Europe by the Phoenicians and the Romans, the Europeans were impressed. Over the years the Persian cat has been purposely bred to perpetuate and accentuate the longhair trait. The first step in working toward a colorpoint Persian was to cross the Siamese and the Persian. from the cat fanciers assoc.
http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/articles/persian-himalayan.html

OG - Isn't Umbra a tortie?

I think she is the classic brown tabby
, like the one shown on this site
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/4114/chipmunk.html

MyBirdIsEvil
August 2nd, 2006, 04:44 PM
This is what my Siamese / DSH mix looks like. He's got orange points and a bit of the Siamese face, but not as much as a real Siamese would.


Holy crap, your cat looks almost exactly like one of my cats.

chico2
August 2nd, 2006, 04:51 PM
I just love those orange-point kitties,they are soo beautiful!
Maybe the OP,does not know much about cats,but hers look like a very sweet contended tabby,cannot see any Siamese or Persian in him.
But who really cares,as long as they are our love-bugs:cat:

Stacer
August 2nd, 2006, 05:01 PM
coolbrinkman, your cat looks an awful lot like mine, she's just your regular run of the mill white/tabby DSH. She's the one on the left.

CyberKitten
August 2nd, 2006, 10:15 PM
What an adorablwe kitty tho I do not see much Siamese or Persian for that matter in him. There is no such breed, never was!! I suspect your parents were sold a story from that pet store. Rare indeed!! Most Siamese are sold by reputable breeders and not in pet stores. I've yet to see a pet store advertising any and if I do, I will be there demanding answers - as in what kind of breeder would sell their meezer in a pet store??

Here is a description of the Siamese breed. Siamese have colour points- and Seal is the most common and best known but there are also flame pt, blue pt, lilac pt, lynx pt. I know no one involved with the Siamese "world" - which I am involved with - who has ever heard of a "Persian Siamese".

http://www.catchannel.com/cat/breeds/profiles/details/siamese.aspx

In the Cat Fanciersí Association, breeders can register their Persians in seven divisions: solid color, silver and golden, shaded and smoke, tabby, particolor, bicolor and Himalayan.

So while you have a lovely cat, there seems to be not much Siamese in her. Persians and meezers are quite different actually - sort of like Mars and Venus. I hope your folks don't still buy from a pet store - there are mamy meezers who need adoption at Siamese Rescue and many other rescues on Petfinder - and Persians as well, if you like long haired cats. (Meezers are noteworthy for their short hair)

MyBirdIsEvil
August 3rd, 2006, 12:25 AM
Cyberkitten, I've seen supposed siamese in pet stores. One of the pet stores here in town has a siamese kitten for sale right now. The kitten doesn't really look full blooded siamese to me (not what I'd think of as a siamese), but after looking online maybe it could be a "pet quality" siamese, as oposed to a show quality (pet quality just sounds poorly bred to me, but I dunno much about breeding cats).
My aunt bred show quality siamese cats at one time and I never heard of "pet quality" cats looking drastically different than the show quality. To me they all just look like normal siamese, and the one she had for a pet at one time, the only difference between it and show quality cats was the points (they weren't perfect, his paws had a bit of pink though he was a bluepoint).
The "pet quality" siameses I saw online for sale didn't even look any different than just a siamese mix, so I don't think I'd trust a pet store selling these, since they could get a mix that looks fairly siamese and call it purebred.
I've also seen definate purebred siameses at pet stores a couple times, but they never looked extremely healthy.

CyberKitten
August 3rd, 2006, 03:51 AM
Perhaps I did not explain it well - I know some pet stores, alas, sell meezers but of course you are getting a cat from a back yard breeder no matter what the store manager might say. I do not see that many in this region tho - thankfully tho I do see ads in the newspaper by byb's, sighhhhh!! (who I guess want to eliminate the costs of the middle agent).

I have a show quality Siamese - not by choice. She was the one I fell in love with when I finally found a breeder I trusted and liked - call me extra picky, lol (Tho I would also have adopted from a Rescue if possible.) Show quality Siamese meet the standard much more than their pet quality counterparts though those of us ot looking for those intricate details might not notice. There are usually "minor flaws" in pet quality meezers or any other breed of cat. These are not flaws those of us who want a pet to share our lives with would ever notice or care about. (One eye may be protruding 1/10 cm too much. a paw might be 1/100 cm off in proportion to a foot or God forbid, a meezer might not have the long sleek, svelte body required - Applehead Siamese that were very popular in the 50's have gievn way to the preferred (by Judges) of Wedge meezers - I have a wedgie girl (I often sing to her the air to that annoying song "Barbie Doll" remining her she's "a Wedgie girl in a meezer world"). Anyway - I digress, :) ) My girl is perfect in every way and so she was much more expensive than her sister and brother - who were also very cute and came from the same genetic pool, two parents with more championships than Canada has hockey players. Unlike some breeds, when you show Siamese, no outbreeds are allowed so it is a given that there is no such recognized "breed" as a Persian Siamese. The accapted colour points in North America are Chocolate Point,Seal Point,Lilac Point,Blue Point Some chapters allow "AOV" or "any other variety" and the most common example of that is lynx point or flame point.

I agree with you re the stores - you can assume if you purchase a Siamese from a pet store, you will have difficulty showing the cat. (Obtaining a healthy one whose genetic and other background you know is another and to me, more important issue). And for all that, you may well pay more in a store than you would for a pet quality or retired cat from a reputale breeder. Credible breeders always want to know where "their" cats are, how they are doing and help you in mentoring if you opt to show cats.

CoolBrinkman
August 4th, 2006, 12:21 AM
Alright everyone, thanks for the replies. We were curious about what Symon was and wondered if the worker there was mistaken, so we called and they gave some uneducated answer like "Yep the record says Siamese Persian mix, can't ya tell by the extremely blue eye color...". I'm not much of an expert, but does that answer even make logical sense?

MyBirdIsEvil
August 4th, 2006, 03:06 AM
:confused: Does your cat even have blue eyes? They look greenish in the pic.
Either way blue eyes does not = siamese or persian decent.
Blue eyes are a recessive gene, but they can come out in almost any mixed-breed cat because these cats have randomly mated and you don't know the genetic make up of each cat.
Normally blue eyes are common in cats that have lots of white, are completely white, or are pointed, such as siamese (this is caused by the blue eyed gene related coat to color), but it can happen in other colors, as I've seen blue eyes on grey and brown tabbies before (this is a seperate blue eyed gene unrelated to color).
A lot of people (either out of ignorance or incomplete research) assume that only white cats and pointed cats can have blue eyes, but as stated earlier, that is NOT true, because there is a seperate gene for blue eyes that is unrelated to coat color.
Gene mutations can also cause uncommon eye colors.

This is the only website I could find that goes into detail about the genetics of blue eyes in cats (rather than just saying white cats have blue eyes blah blah blah).

http://messybeast.com/whitecat.htm

I hope I'm not boring you, lol, but this explains why the pet store would try to pawn some story about blue eyes equaling siamese off on you.
They either think no one will question them, or they honestly believe that cats with blue eyes = siamese, which is sad.

MyBirdIsEvil
August 4th, 2006, 03:10 AM
From the website above, just in case you don't feel like reading all the way through it:

There is also a gene for blue eyes which is inherited separately from coat color. This is the gene responsible for the Ojos Azules breed. If the cat is white colored, there is no easy way of telling whether it has the blue-eyed-deaf-ear type gene or the Ojos-Azules-blue-eyes type gene. It's only possible to tell that a cat has this particular gene if the cat is non-white and has blue eyes. Genes for blue eyes independent of coat color may be more common than previously realised. I have encountered three blue-eyed random-bred cats (one ginger, one silver tabby, one brown tabby) in one UK town between 1989 and 1995. This may be the same gene as Ojos Azules, or it may be due to different gene mutations. Other types of blue eye are being discovered in all-white cats in Asia, the blue is different than Siamese Blue Eyes, but does not seem to cause deafness.

chico2
August 4th, 2006, 07:50 AM
You cannot really see his eyes in the picture...my baby-boy Vinnie,is just a cat-cat:cat: but certainly unusual.
What breed is he??To us just a wonderful cat,probably a mish-mash of breeds:D

CoolBrinkman
August 4th, 2006, 03:29 PM
Ok I had a feeling that what they told us was of little value. Wow nice cat Chico2. My cats natural eye color is below (Actually blue). :D

LM1313
August 4th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Same eye color as my cat! :D

MyBirdIsEvil
August 4th, 2006, 04:27 PM
LM1313
I still can't get over how much your cat looks like mine.
I'll have to take another pic of him with my camera phone, he's laying in the tangle of wires behind my computer (that's always where he is, lol).

Here we go, he looks as if I'm imposing on him 'cause he was cleaning himself, lol.

He looks like he has more orange than your cat though, but he's gotten darker even since we've had him (we adopted him about 1 1/2 years ago), and he's 6 years old.

CyberKitten
August 4th, 2006, 04:46 PM
My cats' eyes usually come out as red, lol (But yes, Siamese typically have blue eyes but there is so much more to being a Siamese - of you read the info in Cat Fancy). Your kitty is cute and you love her and that is the important thing - and Vinnie is so spcial Chico!! What a cutie pie he is.

Here is my spayed (and thus ineligible to be shown) meezer. <g>

LM1313
August 5th, 2006, 10:38 AM
LM1313
I still can't get over how much your cat looks like mine.
I'll have to take another pic of him with my camera phone, he's laying in the tangle of wires behind my computer (that's always where he is, lol).

Here we go, he looks as if I'm imposing on him 'cause he was cleaning himself, lol.

He looks like he has more orange than your cat though, but he's gotten darker even since we've had him (we adopted him about 1 1/2 years ago), and he's 6 years old.

Clones!!! :D My guy likes to lie on computer stuff too. And he's gotten much darker since I got him . . . here he is as a kitten. He's about a year old now. :) (He's half-grown in the scarf picture, he's actually got a lot more orange on his face now.)

http://www.superpony.com/Images/Kitties/10_11_05/Footlove2.jpg

CyberKitten
August 5th, 2006, 05:42 PM
LM, meezers always darken as they age. As kits, when they are born and are all white and you have to look at the tips of the tails to determine what colour pts they will be. (and that is not always so wasy as that age.) Yours is a very cute flame point (sometimes known as Red Point in some geograhic areas). I notice my YY as she ages growing darker.

Chico, I don't know what breed Vinnie is other than he is adorable! He could have some meezer in his bloodline - does he vocalize alot? <g> (If for some Godforsaken reason, YY gets left out of a room by mistake (the wind blows the door closed for ex), I am sure her Siamese yowls can be heard in the next community.

MyBirdIsEvil
August 5th, 2006, 06:08 PM
I wish I had baby pictures of my kitty, now he just looks and acts like a grumpy old man, lol.
I really have no idea where he came from, he's one of the oddest shelter cats I've ever seen.
When we adopted him he was 5 yrs old, declawed, microchipped (for some reason the shelter had it erased without remembering his name :frustrated: , it just said "0" on his tag), and he has the most perfect litterbox manners of any cat I've had. He also would never get on counters or furniture when we first got him (we broke him of that :evil: ), all I can figure is he belonged to some old person who died or something and maybe their family didn't want him.
Then again some of the excuses for getting rid of a cat astound me.
Our big black kitty, Jack, the reason on his tag for being taken to the shelter was "House too small". :rolleyes: How can your house be too small for a cat? They run around, sleep, eat, and want petting, that's about it, lol.

chico2
August 5th, 2006, 06:41 PM
C-K,oh no,I don't think Vinnie is anything other than a cat,just a cat,no prettier than all other cats(well maybe a bit more!):cat:
He is a very quiet cat,you can hardly hear the odd time he meows.
I know very well what Siamese cats sound like,a friend of mine has 3,the symphony at meal-time is deafening:D
I absolutely adore the orange-point cats,just stunning!!

Jim Hall
August 16th, 2008, 01:43 AM
ohh i am so sorry to hear that ive had pets go quick to and it is very upsetting .

growler~GateKeeper
August 17th, 2008, 04:25 AM
CoolBrinkman I'm sorry you lost Symon :grouphug:

:rip: sweet :angel2: Symon run free at The Rainbow Bridge (http://www.indigo.org/rainbowbridge_ver2.html) :candle:

catlover2
September 22nd, 2008, 06:40 PM
Chico2, very sweet and adorable cat. To me she looks like an White Odd-eye DSH. White cats of all breeds can have orange/yellow eyes, blue eyes (often deaf) or like yours Odd-eye (one blue, one yellow). I had an Odd-eye cat once that was deaf on the same side as his blue eye.

catlover2
September 22nd, 2008, 06:45 PM
coolbrinkman. I'm so sorry to hear you lost your lovely pet. It's always so sad and we miss them so much. My heart goes out to you.