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high protein kibble : stupid question

meb999
July 21st, 2006, 10:29 AM
I was going to post this on the other high protein kibble thread....but I didn't want to threadjack!! :o

I was wondering, if high protein kibble has less fiber, does that mean that the poops are harder?
I'm asking because Buster is having a rough time ajusting to hollistic food. Although SG wolf King has been the best yet, I've been considering mixing in some Barking at the Moon to help harden his stools....of course, I would only do this in a couple of weeks, since he's only just started SG Wolf King.

ooooo, another stupid question : the dog-food sales guy told me to decrease the amount of food if Buster stools are still too soft (Prin told me that too), but Buster now cries for more food...I feel like a terrible mama!! Will he get used to less food?

phoenix
July 21st, 2006, 10:53 AM
Hey meb,
Don't really have an answer to your q's... but a little anecdote... took the pups to Ottawa last week and we stayed a couple of days longer than planned... ran out of food and had to buy the best we could find (we found SG hundnflocken)... so it was a sudden change for the dogs as we couldn't find any Canidae. They had the runs for days.The food seemed a lot grainier than Canidae... Anyway I'd give him 3 weeks or so to adjust before adding or changing anything if you're committed to the Wolfking.
I would judge amount of food based on Buster's condition. I know it doesn't take long for Maia (boxer) to look emaciated as she's trim normally...but if he does need to go on less food, green beans (canned or cooked) are a good lo-cal thing to add to the food.

technodoll
July 21st, 2006, 10:55 AM
in my personal experience (and from what a few friends have told me), EVO produces harder, smaller stools than other holistic foods with grains. maika's mother even got constipated on the food but with the addition of fruits & veggies and a bit of bread, it all evened out. :)

meb999
July 21st, 2006, 11:43 AM
Phoenix : Do you feed Canidae All life stages?

and another stupid question : what would make Buster's poos so yellow? They honestly look like corn-poos...but there's no corn in Wolf King....

Could it be the barley or the oatmeal?

Anyways, it's only been a week, so I'm sure his tummy will get used to hollistic. As I mentioned before, he seems to be digesting it alot better than Wellness or Eagle Pack...

technodoll
July 21st, 2006, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE]what would make Buster's poos so yellow[QUOTE]

yellow stools can be related to liver problems, pancreatic problems, IBD... and not necessarily linked to food ingredients. what does your vet say?

meb999
July 21st, 2006, 12:36 PM
what does your vet say?
She thinks it's the food, and wants me to switch to a science diet something or other...
The stools weren't yellow when he was on Wellness (I stopped feeding Wellness about 3 weeks ago -- they weren't yellow, but they were really runny...and gross!!), so I think it must be the food. I guess I should just give it a few weeks....

Prin
July 21st, 2006, 12:49 PM
Yellow means it's going through too fast.

The soft stools... How long was the longest you toughed out on a holistic food?
I can say that my doggies were on WK for nearly 4 months before their stools started to look normal again. Sucks, but it's true. It does take a while for some dogs. I wouldn't cut back too much yet though, because too much too fast and you get a doggy who cries... ;)

How much are you feeding right now?

Sometimes, I find what helps is giving a half meal one day and then seeing what happens (i.e. if it firms up) and then giving a 3/4 the next if the 1/2 did something and so on until you're back up.

I don't know if I'd add the high protein foods either- they're probably even more dense, so you'd have to feed even less...

meb999
July 21st, 2006, 12:59 PM
Yellow means it's going through too fast.

The soft stools... How long was the longest you toughed out on a holistic food?

About 2-3 months on Eagle Pack, and about 1 month on Wellness...


How much are you feeding right now?

Buster is about 60 pounds, and I'm feeding him 2 1/2 cups a day (1 in the AM, and one and 1/2 at night...and sometimes a few sprinkles of food during the afternoon because he's crying at the pantry door, and I hate to think that I'm starving him :o

Honestly though, this is the best hollistic I've tried yet. His poops are real soft, but at least they aren't cow patties like they were on Wellness or Eagle Pack...
I hope it doesn't take 4 months for Buster to get used to this food :fingerscr

Prin
July 21st, 2006, 01:33 PM
Well, Jemma's on about 2.5 cups overall a day too. 2 in the morning and a 1/4 or 1/2 at night. (She gets less in the winter though). You can't cave into the crying or you'll encourage it...:evil:

If they're just soft, I'd give it more time. Just watch out for any anal gland symptoms in the meantime.

phoenix
July 21st, 2006, 01:50 PM
Phoenix : Do you feed Canidae All life stages?

...

Yep! We are doing great on it. I did not feed Maia puppy food... she started out on this at 8 weeks.

meb999
July 21st, 2006, 03:46 PM
Just watch out for any anal gland symptoms in the meantime.

you mean like scooting on the floor? Or actually examining the glands for swelling?
You think the yellow poo may be due to glands?

Prin
July 21st, 2006, 03:48 PM
lol no, the soft stool doesn't empty the anal glands as well as the hard stool, so you might get build up. You'll see scooting or excessive licking.
The yellow is just bile, undigested and not reabsorbed (i.e. the food is passing through too quickly).

mafiaprincess
July 21st, 2006, 11:00 PM
Took us like a month and a half to get wolf king happy poop. Longer we are on it the better it gets.. Unless a family member goofs and feeds cider an entire cup of barking at the moon instead... Oi..

Cause that didn't just happen or anything..

But we waited out the poop and it did get way better, though it's only gone yellow and nasty a few times.. I think other people have fed her other things that have added to the weird poop..

meb999
August 4th, 2006, 07:40 AM
Took us like a month and a half to get wolf king happy poop. Longer we are on it the better it gets.. Unless a family member goofs and feeds cider an entire cup of barking at the moon instead... Oi..

Cause that didn't just happen or anything..

But we waited out the poop and it did get way better, though it's only gone yellow and nasty a few times.. I think other people have fed her other things that have added to the weird poop..

You feed Barking at the moon along with the Wolf King? I'd been thinking about doing that to increase his protein intake)....But I should wait until we get Happy poops before....

Prin
August 4th, 2006, 03:56 PM
Yeah, she does. :) Not sure but maybe the low fiber in the barking at the moon might help with the stools... :shrug: Maybe...:o

OntarioGreys
August 4th, 2006, 04:06 PM
to help wth hunger and aid in firming things up add in a half can of canned green beans or cooked green beans to the meal.

another option is to get a tub of plain yogurt and a can of plain pumpkin(not pie fill) , combine together in a bowl pour into ice cube trays and freeze and you can give a couple a day when he is hungry

meb999
August 4th, 2006, 10:34 PM
thanks....I'm looking forward to the day when we get happy poops again :o

technodoll
August 10th, 2006, 01:57 PM
any sign of happy poops yet? :fingerscr

mafiaprincess
August 10th, 2006, 03:31 PM
Sorry I went MIA again..

Yeah Cider gets mainly wolf king, and then I throw in a tiny amount like literraly 15ish kibbles a meal of barking at the moon.. She likes it better and seems more willing to eat it all when thrown in together..

She's shinier and better toned looking than ever, not that I figure eating a tiny amount of barking at the moon is doing anything..

But I got happy poop on the wolf king alone and then started added literally a taste of the barking in too..

meb999
August 12th, 2006, 09:57 PM
any sign of happy poops yet? :fingerscr

not yet...but they're getting happier.....
I think I'll add some Barkin at the Moon soon, not because of the poop, but I'd like a slightly higher % of protein in Buster's diet. He's a very muscly dog and needs a good amount of protein to keep his muscle mass.

Although we haven't gotten happy poops yet, I HAVE notice a difference in his coat. It's shinier (it was already really shiny), and I haven't even had the urge to wash him since we started the Wolf King. Before he'd get a doggy odor after a few weeks and I'd give him a bath to get rid of it. But now he smells awsome all the time.

meb999
August 12th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Does anyone have any info on if a high protein diet can damage your dogs liver and/or kidneys. I had read a study a long time ago that said that the high protein kibble can be dangerous, but I can't find it anymore....I'm just curious to see if they have any recent evidence of this...

rainbow
August 13th, 2006, 06:07 PM
I just seen this on another forum:



According to the K9KidneyDiet group, it's not the amount of protein that
matters, it's the quality of the protein. The protein in k/d is of low quality and generally not bioavailable to dogs.

There are vast differences in protein quality. It might be a good idea to
check with the experts on the K9KidneyDiet list before condemning an animal
to an inferior diet.

While a low-protein, low-phosphorus and low-sodium diet may be recommended, some studies suggest that feeding a diet low in phosphorus may help slow the progression of kidney failure by reducing mineral deposits in the kidneys.

Low-protein diets are actually a pretty controversial subject these days..
Low-protein diets generate fewer nitrogenous wastes - high levels of which
can cause nausea and vomiting. However, the diet for each dog with kidney
disease should be tailored to their own specific needs as indicated by the
stage of the disease and the blood and urinalysis test results.

For many animals, a diet with HIGH QUALITY protein will be better than a
low-protein diet. Dogs with kidney problems by Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.
states: "Because by-products of protein digestion are the main toxins that
need to be excreted by the kidneys, an obvious assumption might be that all
one needs to do is to cut out the protein and the kidneys wouldn't have any
more hard work to do. . . . There is significant evidence, however, that the
daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic
renal failure. Therefore, severely restricting the protein for such a dog is
likely to result in protein malnutrition, in spite of the fact that the levels of blood urea nitrogen, or BUN (the primary by-product of protein metabolism) would be correspondingly lower." This article contains a great deal more useful information in easy to read format:
www.speedyvet.com/speedyvet/library.asp?page=20

So, do protein diets causes renal failure? No. In dogs they have removed
7/8 of the renal mass and then placed them on diets of various protein level
and quality. Dietary protein had no effect on the development of renal
failure. In cats similar studies suggest that dietary protein level is not
associated with renal failure.

Dr.Hamilton's DVM states that... 'diets that are low in potassium can cause
renal failure.' In general Commercial diets are of poor quality protein and
poorly formulated and may have led to the development of renal disease.

During developing renal insufficiency the phosphate content of the diet may
be important. High phosphate levels may lead to worsening renal failure.
Many diets today are acidified to help reduce the risk of FUS (or FLUTD as
it is now known) this may cause increased loss of potassium in the urine and
promote potassium depletion. Currently these problems (high phosphate and
acidification) are being investigated in cats to see how important they are
to the development of renal failure. But we do suspect that this is the
major cause of early kidney disease in animals today.

Typically, holistic veterinarians will recommend a home-made diet for
patients with CRF/CIN that addresses their individual needs. Low-protein
diets, if not carefully managed, can actually lead to malnutrition. If a
low-protein diet is necessary in Koty's case, a canned natural/holistic
formula (Hills foods are not, contrary to some opinions healthy, Vets
recommend them as the only nutrition they have ever studied was put out by
Hills. They also get "kick backs" and incentives to sell this food) designed for senior animals may be an option. If you are not sure of what is best for Koty, a consultation with a holistically trained veterinarian would be advised.

Dry food is not a good option for animals with kidney problems. Hydration
is extremely important for animals with kidney disease. If Koty does not
drink plenty of water, he runs the risk of becoming chronically dehydrated
on a diet of dry kibble. Inappropriate diet is thought to be one of the
contributing factors to chronic renal failure.

"It is also good to provide a low sodium diet (most commercial dog foods
tend to have sodium in them) to decrease hypertension which may be damaging the kidneys and low phosphorous since it appears that phosphorous may actually be a major cause of damage in deteriorating kidneys." Dr. Mike's"
online question-and-answer page with a bunch of discussions on
kidney-related issues

Do you have Koty on any supplements? Omega 3 fatty acids from marine fish
oil have been shown to slow the progression of kidney disease in a clinical
trial with dogs. The anti-inflammatory action of the Omega 3's may reduce
kidney inflammation. Vitamin E is often recommended along with the Omega 3
oils as they act synergistically. The dosage for Omega 3 fatty acids can
generally be increased up to twice that recommended on the product label,
but reduce the dosage if loose stools result.

B-complex and vitamin C are also usually recommended to help replenish the
vitamins lost due to the inability of the kidneys to recycle and retain
these nutrients in the body properly. Some dogs appear to have a better
appetite and feel better when given B vitamins or an appropriate
vitamin-mineral complex:

COQ10 is also recommended. Give one milligram of COQ10 daily per pound of
body weight. There is good research behind this that shows it can help bring
down the creatinine levels:
www.illnessisoptional.com/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=32&z=14 .
www.annieappleseedproject.org/coqbenforenr.html

Conclusions: Treatment with coenzyme Q10 reduces serum creatinine and blood urea nitrogen and increases creatinine clearance and urine output in
patients with chronic renal failure.

Supplementing the diet with magnesium helps prevent things like -
depression, dizziness, muscle weakness, twitching, heart disease, and high
blood pressure, also aids in maintaining the proper pH balance - which can
be a common occurrence in kidney patience.

Both Chinese and Western herbs can be useful in the beginning stages of
kidney disease. As the disease progresses, consultation with a holistically
trained veterinarian is recommended for proper use of appropriate herbal
remedies.

Additional supplements, such digestive enzymes, probiotics and Renafood by
Standard Process, can be helpful for chronic renal failure, (Renafood
requires a consultation with a veterinarian for prescription). Again, a
consult with a holistic veterinarian would be beneficial when dealing with
kidney disease.

While you are ultimately the decision maker in the treatment of Koty, it is
important to utilize your veterinarian as a crucial part of the team,
ideally along with a holistic practitioner that can offer alternative
treatments to compliment any conventional medications or treatments.

Helpful Resources and Links:

http://www.jeanesholistics.com/artkidneyfailure.html

http://www.danemist.com/renaldisease.html

Recipes for home-prepared kidney diets:
Book by Dr. Donald R. Strombeck
http://store.blackwell-professional.com/0813821495.html

Prin
August 13th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Ontario Greys posted research somewhere where it said that higher protein diets didn't do any damage... I just know more dogs that have had trouble with Evo than dogs who haven't... (trouble as in organ failure) But who knows for sure, as long as when they actually test foods, they test with purina or Iams (i.e. where the money is).

I do know for sure that a protein level below 15% is really bad for normal dogs.

Either way, if you use it as a supplement to the regular food, it shouldn't be an issue.