July 10th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Any feedback on Barking at the moon for high metabolism dogs? I'm considering switching to this to get more fat calories into skinny pup. Its 465 cal/cup instead of 410 cal/cup in the Solid gold Lamb puppy food.
How are they liking the flavor etc.
July 10th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Cider gets like an 1/8th of a cup tossed in with her wolf king daily. She prefers it. No grain makes it 'meatier'
I fed a few sample packs of it as complete meals.. but until some serious research is done on the effects of high protein diets, I won't be comfortable feeding it alone for any long periods. So I add in in to spice up her food since she likes it more.
July 10th, 2006, 08:39 PM
if you're looking for a really meaty, high-quality & high-calorie food, try Go! Natural... 42% meat inclusion, 617 calories per cup. For all life stages. OR add some real meat to the kibble you are currently feeding. Fatty canned fish, full-fat cottage cheese & yogurt, eggs, cooked meats, etc: it's all excellent. good luck!
July 10th, 2006, 10:12 PM
I would wait on giving any new Go! Natural products. They just started taking out the menadione sodium bisulfate and it could take a while for the old stock to run out.
Also, the 42% meat inclusion is a bit of a scam- they include the wet meat in there:
Chicken Meal, Chicken Meat, Whole Brown Rice, Whole White Rice, Hulless Barley, Sunflower Oil, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols (vit E), citric acid (vit C) and Rosemary extract), Salmon Meal, Dried Whole Potatoes, Rice Bran, Natural Chicken Flavour, Dried Whole Apples, Dried Whole Carrots, Ground Flax, Bee Pollen, Dried Whole Garlic, Ginger, Dried Alfalfa, Dried Whole Egg, Beta Carotene, Dried Whole Cranberries, Kelp, Yucca Shidegera, Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulphate, Potassium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin A acetate, Cholecalciferol (vit D), dl alphatocopherol acetate (vit E), ferrous sulphate, **zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, niacin, calcium pantothenate, copper sulphate, **copper proteinate, manganous oxide, riboflavin,
calcium iodate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vit B6), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, menadione sodium bisulphate complex (vit K), Vitamin B12.There's a lot of rice in there... Not a bad food still, but still grainy for a "meaty" food and still 24% protein.... Looks like most of the calories are coming from carbs...
With the citric acid in there, I wouldn't advise giving this one to active large breed doggies (citric acid in the food, especially if the food is wet before serving, can cause bloat).
Barking at the moon is another one like Evo and I'm not convinced they're great as a main food, but as a supplement to a regular food, they'd probably be great. Here is my breakdown of both (I never compared them side by side, so I thought it would be fun...).
Turkey | Salmon | Turkey Meal | Potatoes | Salmon Meal | Eggs | Olive Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Blueberries | Tomato Pumice | Broccoli | Carrots | L-Lysine | L-Carnitine | Dried Chicory Root | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Marigold Extract | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Sodium Selenite | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Egg, Garlic, Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms
Comparing the two, I like the fats much better in the Barking at the moon- olive and flax, rather than just chicken fat. The solid gold fats promote a healthy heart and circulatory system among many other things, but the Evo's is a saturated fat...
For allergy dogs, the contents of the "natural flavors" in the Evo would be a small concern, being that it's pretty high up on the list- if there are proteins from plants/foods the dog is allergic to, they might make their way into the food via unspecified "flavors".
The solid gold also has more fiber, which is a must for these super high protein foods (4% vs 2.5%).
I also wouldn't really pay extra for mystery probiotics. I'd rather buy my own live ones that are guaranteed to be there in certain numbers...
Short answer: Go get some samples and if your doggy likes the Barking at the moon, go ahead! :)
July 10th, 2006, 10:34 PM
well... solid gold is also a very grainy food... more so than the Go Natural (SG wolf king has one wet protein so put that down at the bottom of the list, then one dry protein, then 5 grains). 42% meat inclusion is 42%, no matter how you break down the ingredients, the meat is still there. it's a good food IMO (for an artificial canine diet, that is). i would like to know the % of meat in SG, is that information available anywhere? just out of curiosity :)
SG wolf king ingredients:
Bison (wet ingredient, take out the 70% water and you end up with very little bison)
Salmon Meal - good stuff
Brown Rice -grain
Cracked Pearled Barley -grain
Rice Bran -grain
Canola Oil - not an animal oil so not super
Flaxseed Oil - not an animal oil so not super
dogs do NOT process "fats" and proteins like humans do. the olive & flax are not as good oil sources for dogs as are good-quality animal fats. in nature, dogs do not chew on flax seeds nor pick olives from trees. :)
more info: http://b-naturals.com/Jan2006.php
For dogs, “fat is where it’s at.” Fat offers energy, warmth and calories for dogs. Fat is essential for dogs. It is important to offer fat sources from animal based foods. In a normal, healthy dog, fat is easier to digest than proteins or carbohydrates. Studies have shown that animal based fats digest at rates of about 95%. Fat is the main source of energy for dogs, and are found to provide the best source of endurance and stamina for working dogs undergoing stress, such as sled dogs.
The best sources for omega 3 fatty acids are found in fish body oils, such as fish oil or salmon oil. Cod liver oil is quite different, as it is lower in omega 3 and very high in vitamins A and D. Fish oil has a readily available form of omega 3, called EPA and DHA. Plant based oils such as Flax Seed Oil contains ALA, which needs to be converted in the body to be of use. Most dogs are unable to do this conversion which results in high amounts of omega 6 from this source, but not much omega 3. A high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio promotes inflammation, poor coat, allergies and skin conditions.
“While flaxseeds or flaxseed oil is not harmful to pets and does supply some essential omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids, flaxseed oil is a source of alphalinoleic acid (ALA), an omega-3 fatty acid that is ultimately converted to EPA and DHA. Many animals (probably including dogs) and some people cannot convert ALA to these other more active non-inflammatory omega-3 fatty acids, due to a deficiency of desaturase enzymes needed for the conversion. In one human study, flaxseed oil was ineffective in reducing symptoms or raising levels of EPA and DHA. Therefore, I do not recommend flaxseed oil as a fatty acid supplement for pets with atopic dermatitis (skin problems caused by environmental allergies). Instead, look for fish oil, which provides EPA and DHA.”(
July 10th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Ok, I'm not comparing the Wolf King to anything here. I was comparing "Solid Gold Barking at the Moon" food with Evo and your Go! Natural suggestion. Yes, wolf king is grainier but it's also not claiming to be 42% protein nor 42% meat by weight. The Go! Natural food phrases things funny with the magic "42" in reference to meat, but it's a sneaky 42. It's not 42% protein, it's 42% meat by weight. Totally different. 42% before cooking obviously doesn't mean 42% after cooking or the protein would be much higher. It doesn't compare to Evo and Barking at the moon. It's just not in that category. It might have more meat than a regular food, maybe more than Wolf King, but definitely not more than the high protein/low carb ones. And that was my point.
Everything I've read says the opposite about fats. Animal fats are saturated. Saturated fats are saturated fats regardless of the animal they go into. They clog arteries and offer no health benefits compared to other fats. Yes, fish oil is a more absorbable form of fat than flax or olive oil, and there is some good fish too in the barking at the moon, but flax and olive oil, IMO are still much better than saturated animal fats.
Here, read up on some non-animal fats in dogs (you can read the abstracts free):
This one tested the effect of flax oil on dermatitis in dogs:
This one I especially like:
Here's the study the site from your link should have looked at, funded by Waltham:
It basically says:
The results clearly show rapid accumulation of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and certain other (n-3) fatty acids in plasma lipids in the canine model when a diet containing a modest increase of ALA is fed. Similar results have been observed in human studies with a 4-wk feeding period. [...] The observed changes appeared to achieve a steady state after ~28 d, although EPA continued to increase modestly throughout the 84-d feeding period.
And for DHA,
It is especially noteworthy in the FLX group that PL-DHA [22:6(n-3)] was unchanged during the entire period. This finding indicates some resistance for plasma DHA levels to accumulate in dogs fed ALA at the diet level employed in this study
Interesting, no? How people pick and choose what they want to include from research to back themselves up?
They might have left out the bit about how it was the same in humans and how the EPA continued to increase over time...;) (I thought you said they couldn't convert ALA to EPA..
While flaxseeds or flaxseed oil is not harmful to pets and does supply some essential omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids, flaxseed oil is a source of alphalinoleic acid (ALA), an omega-3 fatty acid that is ultimately converted to EPA and DHA. Many animals (probably including dogs) and some people cannot convert ALA to these other more active non-inflammatory omega-3 fatty acids, due to a deficiency of desaturase enzymes needed for the conversion But then they used a human study to prove their point about how dogs can't absorb flaxseed oil properly, right?
July 10th, 2006, 11:28 PM
ah well... the OP wanted a calorie-rich food, and i suggested one that wasn't artificially high in protein:) i also suggested the addition of other stuff to the original food to boost the calories. as for fats, i believe Mother Nature has it all under control, no matter what Study A or Study B says. we all know that all studies end up with data proving what the sponsor wanted to see, eh? :rolleyes:
our dogs, carnivores (but adapted omnivores) are built to eat, digest and metabolise animal fats and not fats from plant matter. the addition of plant oils to a dog's diet is a man-made instance and cannot replicate the perfection of nature. Animals are at their best, at their prime, when eating a diet that is biologically suited to them (cows eat grass and become plump and glossy, tigers eat gazelles and become plump and glossy, etc...), no human intervention needed. and they don't suffer from all the problems our domesticated animals do (food allergies in the wild? hmmm don't think it's a rampant problem...).
soooo.... it's logical that our dogs are best suited to thrive on animal fats rather than those from plant material. of course we're not talking of beef tallow or mystery restaurant grease here :yuck: (again, all man-made).
July 10th, 2006, 11:37 PM
You believe that, and I'll believe that we're not far enough apart in evolution to not be able to absorb similar things, especially basic fat molecules.;)
July 11th, 2006, 12:53 AM
So how is the OP asking about Barking turn into another thread bashing wolf king? I don't see why WK was even brought up.. We are all aware it has grains.....
If saturated animal fats are so amazing for dogs.. why is it that all the wild animals that are toted for being so healthy often aren't in studies? All the info that gets toted time and again in from biased sources. It's like using all PETA material to prove why all circuses are bad. Doesn't make much of a ripple..
It's like you are so pro raw that every time kibble is ever mentioned it turns into a fiery debate over how all of it is so evil.....
July 11th, 2006, 06:53 AM
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
I appreciate all the perspectives everyone ... good information and good points but play nice will ya?
Technodoll, what did you mean by "artificially high in protein"?t
July 11th, 2006, 11:09 AM
Technodoll, what did you mean by "artificially high in protein"?
the average protein % of meat is around 16 to 18%. and except for the few grainless kibbles on the market, most formulas revolve around 20-26% protein. not sure what a kibble toting 44% protein does to a dog's body... but i feed it anyways, mixed in with a grainy kibble, to my boy a few meals per week. so far i don't see any problems... i guess feeding such a high-protein diet, exclusively, over a long period of time would give a better indication of whether it's good or bad. ;)
July 11th, 2006, 10:03 PM
I agree that 42% is very high, but as I said before, if it's just a supplement to add calories, there shouldn't be a problem. Fed alone, I'm wary.
July 12th, 2006, 08:28 AM
Well I as a doggie novice appreciate the fiery debate .. until I found you guys I would have never spent so much time picking a dog food ... knew not to get cheap kibble for the dog but I would have never read labels and researched on the 'net like I do now .... so thanks !! (and my Coco thanks you too) :pawprint:
July 14th, 2006, 12:10 AM
Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but Technodoll, did you notice that the 25% meat inclusion Go! Natural foods have 22% protein? I find it interesting that 20% less meat results only in a 2% drop in protein content... Go figure.:rolleyes: Sneakiness, I tell you. Sneaaaaky.
July 14th, 2006, 08:39 AM
i don't know how the heck any manufacturer calculates % of anything, and forget about bioavailibility, that data simply does not exist (i wonder why...) :( in any case, almost done with the big bag of Go! Natural (been only feeding a few meals here and there the past couple of months) and I won't be buying it anymore, dakotah's coat went to crap on it.
The past 3 weeks, i've been mixing his Evo with some Nutro Natural Choice Lamb & Rice (that is what most akita breeders are feeding their kennels, with great results, go figure...) and i KNOW it's junk food, but i wanted to test for myself. well his coat is much softer now, he loves it, i wonder what that is all about! he still gets his Fish Oil Supplement a few times per week, as well as garlic tablets - mosquitoes hate that! - and if we're lucky he'll accept two or three raw meals... we'll see what happends down the road.
Oh and definitely, brushing his teeth with the enzymatic toothpaste mixed with baking soda, and hubby helping to keep the boy's mouth open so i can get ALL those teeth, has made a difference, his teeth are whiter now and his gums bleed less. OH what a big RELIEF! :p