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How do you tell a reputable breeder from a puppy mill?

MorahMommy
July 8th, 2006, 12:12 PM
We are thinking of getting a puppy. There are so many ads in the paper and on-line. How do you tell if it's a reputable breeder or a puppy mill? What are the signs to look for?

Puppyluv
July 8th, 2006, 12:33 PM
chances are, if its in an ad, its a byb or a puppy mill
i'll go look for the link for tell tale signs

RVT092481
July 8th, 2006, 12:49 PM
As Puppyluv said, a lot of reputable breeders won't advertise in the paper. If your looking for a purebred dog, your best resource is the CKC (or AKC if in USA). The Dogs In Canada website/books list all the CKC registered breeders by breed. Both parents should be viewable in person or pictures (if sperm from stud dog) and up to date on vaccines, depending on breed they should have hips/elbows/eyes certified and papers should be given to you as well. You can start there and word of mouth is best as well.
Do you know what breed you're looking for? I'm sure that lots of people can recommend good breeders.

White Wolf
July 8th, 2006, 01:24 PM
Here is a sticky from the breed discussion forum that might be helpful.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=18613

Puppyluv
July 8th, 2006, 02:13 PM
Here is a sticky from the breed discussion forum that might be helpful.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=18613

thats the one i was looking for! Thanks WW!

lezzpezz
July 8th, 2006, 02:55 PM
Classified ad in today's paper under "pets":

Pet Zone (Sarnia) Snoodles, ShiPoos, Bichons, Cockapoos, Puggles, Beagle-Bull dogs, Shih Tzus, Golden Doodle, Wheatie-poos and Cairn terriers coming soon. (Phone #)

I couldn't help but notice that these are mostly what one may consider "mutts", all mishmashed cutsie designer "breeds". And where do we suppose they come from?? You got it....puppymill, BYB, and they are plentiful and mass produced. Just look at the sheer volume of available dogs at this one store! Always in stock, with more to follow....

Does this make you think??:confused:

lezzpezz
July 8th, 2006, 03:17 PM
Anyone on this forum ever check out this Sarnia pet store, *******?? Does anyone know where the dogs in question come from and/or have you seen the kennel that they originated from? Has it ever been investigated or reported?

I'd be interested to see what they would say when asked:

1) where do your dogs/cats come from?
2) Is the 'breeder' a responsible person? Of course, they'll say "Oh yes!"
3) are the animals vet checked prior to sale? Vaccinated? Dewormed? Clean bill of health with proof??

That kind of thing.

lotus
June 26th, 2008, 09:17 AM
Let me start by saying I know this thread is old.
I have been in this store and it is disgusting the smell will knock you out.
I also feel that these puppies no doubt come from a mill.
My friend went in and asked those questions and was told info on the pups was confidential when the person insisted to know, they were asked to leave the store.
A family member bought one of their pups cost them $1000 in vet bills 24 hours after they got it. The heath guarantee is just a line they feed you as family member got no help with their vet bill just an offer of free dog food.(1 bag)
When it comes to buying a puppy from here buyer beware.:evil:

Sabine
June 26th, 2008, 09:21 AM
Best way to go about buying a pup from a breeder: Word of mouth. ;)
Attend a couple of dog-shows and talk to breeders and have handlers recommend breeders to you.
The alternative: There are a lot of breed rescues out there who would be more than happy to adopt a puppy out to you. :)

lawgrl77
July 7th, 2008, 04:28 PM
One of the best ways is to ask for pictures. Pictures of the puppies, the mom and dad, the place...a reputable breeder will be happy to send you pictures and if you see clean, happy, healthy looking animals you'll know it's the right place.

I've gotten several animals from breeders (and adpoted several too) and the best breeders are the ones who breed out of their own home and raise the animals as part of their families (and don't treat them like a cash cow...so to speak). These breeders are always (in my experience) happy to have you visit and happy to send pictures.

So ask for pictures and by all means do not hesitate to visit the breeder...you'll know a puppy mill when you see it.

allfurlove
July 7th, 2008, 05:01 PM
Here is a pretty good explanation of BYB vs Reputable breeder

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb_vs_rp.pdf

If they are breeding more than one breed of dog, or have multiple litters at once, they are probably a puppy mill.

mona_b
July 7th, 2008, 11:35 PM
If they are breeding more than one breed of dog at once, they are probably a puppy mill.

Ummm not really.I know many "ethical" breeders who will have 2 different breeds,even three.But these dogs are health/genetic tested and titled to Ch and other titles.My sisters Sibe breeder also showed and titled Boxers.I know that for a facked cause I was the one who was dealling with this breeder and did the checks of the kennel and got in touch with other breeders about this breeder.

Also,ethical breeders will ask you a ton of question.Actually it's almost like your adopting a child.

they should never ever be bought from a pet store.:evil:

goldengal
July 8th, 2008, 02:44 PM
I seldom post, but did feel I had to speak up on this one. Our first Golden Retriever back in 1984 came from what I now know was a BYB. Duke lived to be 13 with very little health issues other than 2 sebacious cysts which we had removed. He was the joy of the neighbourhood.

Our second Golden who was rehomed to us at almost age 3 came from a reputable breeder. He had hypothyroidism and hip dysplasia. He died suddenly just short of 10 years.

My present Golden comes from a reputable, although small breeder. Her sire is from a large reputable, and long living Golden line. In her first two years I spent $4000 on vet bills - all unrelated. One incident was due to an accident in the yard next door when she was only 8 months old so definitely nothing genetic. She has a pink nose year round and jowls that drool like a Saints, but she is gorgeous.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is, unless we are heading for the show ring, no matter how good the genetics are s--- happens.

LavenderRott
July 8th, 2008, 03:39 PM
I seldom post, but did feel I had to speak up on this one. Our first Golden Retriever back in 1984 came from what I now know was a BYB. Duke lived to be 13 with very little health issues other than 2 sebacious cysts which we had removed. He was the joy of the neighbourhood.

Our second Golden who was rehomed to us at almost age 3 came from a reputable breeder. He had hypothyroidism and hip dysplasia. He died suddenly just short of 10 years.

My present Golden comes from a reputable, although small breeder. Her sire is from a large reputable, and long living Golden line. In her first two years I spent $4000 on vet bills - all unrelated. One incident was due to an accident in the yard next door when she was only 8 months old so definitely nothing genetic. She has a pink nose year round and jowls that drool like a Saints, but she is gorgeous.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is, unless we are heading for the show ring, no matter how good the genetics are s--- happens.

You are right - no matter how good the genetics are, stuff happens. Just out of curiosity - how much of that $4,000 in vet bills was spent on issues that are genetic or hereditary?

However, if you make sure that you only buy from an ETHICAL breeder - who tests and certifies things like hips, elbows, thyroid, etc. then the chances of crippling or fatal stuff happening is greatly decreased.

IMHO - there is a HUGE difference between REPUTABLE and ETHICAL. I have met several breeders of many different breeds who have great reputations for pumping out lovely pups that do well in the show ring. But they do not do any genetic testing and are, shall we say, less then careful when screening homes for pups. An ethical breeder will do everything humanly possible to make sure that any puppies they sell not only meet the breed standard but are as healthy as possible and will live long, happy lives in wonderful families.

goldengal
July 8th, 2008, 05:35 PM
Hi LavenderRott .... No, really none of Momtana's problems were genetic, but I suppose I was trying to say the pink nose (not snow nose) and loose jowls do not comform to the breed standard, but I just carry a face cloth to wipe her off when we are on walks. Just today she was groomed, and we went next door to our vet's to get weighed, and Montana knows she gets the good Rollover treats. They know enough that they have to wash their hands right after giving her treats. Did I expect this from a golden with it being my third?No. I don't love her any less, but I am still saying she came from good breeding, but does not fit into the standard (unfortunately, I explain her short comings at the vet's much the same as I did with my girls in school). I wouldn't trade her for anythng though.

Pat

LavenderRott
July 8th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Even the most careful breeder can have a puppy that has faults - such as your Montana's pink nose. And if it is only the occasional puppy - that is exceptable, IMHO. Now, if the breeder was breeding litter after litter of pups with the same disqualifying fault, I would find a new breeder. But. Better a pink nose then hips that are so bad the dog is incapable of walking by the age of 1.

goldengal
July 8th, 2008, 06:41 PM
Hi Sandi .... And that is why I say I love her so much, but lots would not be so accepting perhaps if they were looking for perfection. Now the drooling I could do without. lol

katherine93
July 10th, 2008, 09:33 PM
If they are breeding more than one breed of dog, or have multiple litters at once, they are probably a puppy mill.

My nany breeds samoyeds, siberians, and malamutes, she isnt a byb nor does she runa a puppy mill, she is passoinate about all three breeds .

LavenderRott
July 11th, 2008, 07:50 PM
My nany breeds samoyeds, siberians, and malamutes, she isnt a byb nor does she runa a puppy mill, she is passoinate about all three breeds .

So. We can assume by this statement that your Grandmother shows her dogs to championships, participates in activities with the dogs that are appropriate for what they were bred for and makes sure to breed dogs that have had all the appropriate health tests and certifications needed to prevent the passing on of crippling or fatal genetic health issues.

katherine93
July 14th, 2008, 03:49 PM
So. We can assume by this statement that your Grandmother shows her dogs to championships, participates in activities with the dogs that are appropriate for what they were bred for and makes sure to breed dogs that have had all the appropriate health tests and certifications needed to prevent the passing on of crippling or fatal genetic health issues.

Yes, Why would she breed them if she werent trying to better the breeds?

Dingo
July 14th, 2008, 06:29 PM
She must be incredibly busy. And/or very rich.

katherine93
July 14th, 2008, 08:43 PM
Both accually dingo, But she is the type not to flaunt money, My Grandpa was a big excectutive of a big company in Alberta, i didnt see him alot as a kid, then he died so, i didnt really get to know him :( Man, i wish i could remember the name of the company:wall:. :offtopic: Anyway, When he died she retired and is spending the rest of her life completely devoted to the animals! ...lol I mean, she was breeding them for years before my grandpa passed away, but she was only breedind sibes at the time, she has been breeding them for years and years and years now..lol

Dingo
July 16th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Personally, I really don't see how anyone could find enough time and resources to devote herself fully to three different breeds. The breeders I know

* are constantly doing research to keep up with news and developments in their breed
* are frequently in contact with other breeders
* participate in breed- or type-specific activities (such as earthdog, or lure coursing, or hunting or whatever), and participate in and attend breed- and type-specific shows and trials. These can happen every weekend, and often require travel
* spend hours every day grooming, exercising, and training their own dogs, of which they typically have several
* spend hours planning matings and litters, caring for pregnant dogs and puppies, and dealing with potential buyers
* sometimes even devote time to non-dog activities (like eating, cleaning, spending time with their families, maybe even watching a little tv...) as well

Multiply that by three breeds, and it seems like something has to be sacrificed somewhere.

mona_b
July 20th, 2008, 02:53 PM
My grandma has 9 samoyeds, 8 Siberians, And 5 malamutes! She breeds them! Thats who i got jesse from!

22 dogs in total.. Plus she has litter of samoyeds up there now that are almost ready to go.. She has a liter of siberians and a litter of malamutes on the way , than shes done breding and retiring the girls.. And spaying them all.. BUt she might not neuter all the boys and 'pimp' em out as studs.. To Responsible breeders of course!

That is way to many even for a breeder.

Even breeders I know with 3 breeds don't have THAT many.

My sisters Sibe breeder only had 3,and 2 boxers.And that was a chore for her with all the showing she did with them..How the heck do you show/title 22 dogs?

katherine93
July 20th, 2008, 02:56 PM
She doesn't breed/show/title ALL of them . Only a few of them. She kept alot of puppies from litters she has had for just "Family pets" . Id rather not go into detail at the moment, because i no what its going to cause:rolleyes: .

Dingo
July 21st, 2008, 01:22 PM
22 dogs PLUS another 12-20 on the way? Good grief.

Gail P
August 12th, 2008, 01:06 AM
While I'm absolutely against puppy mills and byb's, and do believe that good, ethical, reputable breeders should be getting all necessary health tests done {and putting championships on their dogs is most cases}, I do believe that there are exceptions.

Some breeds should not be put in the show ring and titled with show championships, period. To do so destroys the breed because it encourages breeding to conform to a conformation standard, rather than for the breed's original purpose. Case in point, border collies. Though they are now able to be registered and shown with the CKC, the CBCA (Canadian Border Collie Association), feels so strongly that this is a detriment to the breed and will ultimately destroy the working ability of the border collie that CBCA memberships will be revoked if a breeder chooses to go the CKC route (I believe, though the exact wording may be different, but it is on the CBCA website for anyone who wants to take a look). Border collies come in a wide variety of sizes, colours, coat types, ear stances etc., however, the ones bred for the show ring are all remarkably the same: fluffy black and white dogs with perfect markings - "Barbie collies" to those who prefer a working bred dog. That's not to say that border collies shouldn't still be registered, however their registries would be the CBCA, ABCA (American), or ISDS (International Stock Dog Association I believe). And before being bred they should be proven working dogs, either working to a high level on the farm or competing and placing well at herding trials - i.e. earning working titles, not show titles.

As for numbers of dogs a "good" breeder has, it is true that usually the good breeders will have only one breed, or maybe two and not huge numbers. But again, there are exceptions, and again my example goes back to working dogs. Take a look at mushers. Their kennels can range to upwards of 100 dogs depending on how many strings they're running, the size of their strings and if they're offering tours. Yes they do breed, their proven working dogs, to ensure they have up and coming youngsters. A serious musher needs to have many dogs. In the long distance races they run big strings (16 dogs start the Iditarod, but they have to bring 24 I think that all must pass a vet check and then they choose their 16 starters). In sprint races they may run 4 dogs, 6 dogs or 8 dogs, but often if they've traveled long distances and are spending the weekend at the race they will enter 2 or more classes with different teams, which could require up to 18 race ready dogs. Plus more at home; spares in case of injury or illness, plus youngsters in training. You get the picture, the numbers begin to add up. Often more than one family member is involved and that requires more teams. Or, the big kennels may have an "A" team and a younger "B" team and hire help to run "B" team in some races to give them race experience. One other thing about many sled dogs - most of the best, fastest dogs do not have papers and are not found in any registry. The Alaskan Huskies, the Scandanavian Hounds, the Eurohounds - all mixbreeds bred for the sole purpose of pulling that sled as fast as they can go. Of course there are other breeds that can and do sled, and classes are offered for purebred northern breeds but by and large it's the open class dogs, the mixed-breeds that are seen in larger numbers. I believe that the breeding of these type of mixed breed dogs, bred with a specific purpose in mind (improving their working ability), is vastly different than puppy mills and backyard breeders producing mutts they market as "designer dogs" with huge price tags.

I think that anyone thinking about getting a puppy or dog needs to do their research first of all about what kind of dog will suit them best; energy level, temperament, coat type, size, habits and eccentricities (barkers, diggers, chewers, good off leash or around other animals) etc. and then research more about the breed they choose. What was the breed originally bred for? Are you prepared to fill that breed's inherent needs (i.e. border collies need to work or be otherwise stimulated) What health problems are inherent to the breed? Does the breeder you're interested in test for these potential risks? Can both parents be seen? Are they registered? If so with what registry - not all registries are created equal, some are basically not much more than a way for puppy mills to put papers on their dogs to better market them. Are the parents titled? Should they be titled or should they be proven in some other way? i.e. working ability vs. show championships. Do all the dogs on the premises (not just the puppies and their parents) appear to be healthy? What health guarantees are offered? How often are their females bred? Does the breeder have a contract to sign? Do they insist that any dog they sell be returned to them in the event that the buyer can't keep it sometime in the future? Does the breeder want to know everything about you (family members, children, other pets, type of residence, rent/own, fenced yard, etc.), or do you just hand over your money and be on your way with your new puppy? Will the breeder be willing/available to answer questions, offer tips etc. if you experience any difficulties raising your pup? Sometimes it seems like a lot to go through to get a dog/puppy but the good breeders really care about who they place their puppies with and the kind of life they'll have. Rescues are very similar, most will make you jump through hoops to prove that you're good enough to adopt one of their pets but it's because they care so much about making sure that the animal will have a forever home. These are all things to consider that will help to differentiate between the truly good, ethical breeders and the rest. And if you've done your research about the breed you're interested in, you'll know what to be looking for in a breeder, what questions to ask, and what things are red flags to watch out for.

BenMax
September 19th, 2008, 07:14 AM
Best way to go about buying a pup from a breeder: Word of mouth. ;)
Attend a couple of dog-shows and talk to breeders and have handlers recommend breeders to you.
The alternative: There are a lot of breed rescues out there who would be more than happy to adopt a puppy out to you. :)

Thanks for saying this. So true. You would not believe how many purebreds are in rescue and shelters. My sister just got a 9 week old black pug from the SPCA. I am certain that the little fellow is not from a renouned breeder...but he is absolutely gorgeous and in good health. The best time of year to get a purebred puppy from a rescue or shelter is after X-Mas, after Valentines day and just after moving season (September/October/November). Pathetic isn't it.

You can always make an application out with a rescue and once you are approved they will advise you when a pup comes in. You will be saving alot of $$ and you will also save a life.

LavenderRott
September 19th, 2008, 09:13 AM
While I'm absolutely against puppy mills and byb's, and do believe that good, ethical, reputable breeders should be getting all necessary health tests done {and putting championships on their dogs is most cases}, I do believe that there are exceptions.

Some breeds should not be put in the show ring and titled with show championships, period. To do so destroys the breed because it encourages breeding to conform to a conformation standard, rather than for the breed's original purpose. Case in point, border collies. Though they are now able to be registered and shown with the CKC, the CBCA (Canadian Border Collie Association), feels so strongly that this is a detriment to the breed and will ultimately destroy the working ability of the border collie that CBCA memberships will be revoked if a breeder chooses to go the CKC route (I believe, though the exact wording may be different, but it is on the CBCA website for anyone who wants to take a look). Border collies come in a wide variety of sizes, colours, coat types, ear stances etc., however, the ones bred for the show ring are all remarkably the same: fluffy black and white dogs with perfect markings - "Barbie collies" to those who prefer a working bred dog. That's not to say that border collies shouldn't still be registered, however their registries would be the CBCA, ABCA (American), or ISDS (International Stock Dog Association I believe). And before being bred they should be proven working dogs, either working to a high level on the farm or competing and placing well at herding trials - i.e. earning working titles, not show titles.


I think that anyone thinking about getting a puppy or dog needs to do their research first of all about what kind of dog will suit them best; energy level, temperament, coat type, size, habits and eccentricities (barkers, diggers, chewers, good off leash or around other animals) etc. and then research more about the breed they choose. What was the breed originally bred for? Are you prepared to fill that breed's inherent needs (i.e. border collies need to work or be otherwise stimulated) What health problems are inherent to the breed? Does the breeder you're interested in test for these potential risks? Can both parents be seen? Are they registered? If so with what registry - not all registries are created equal, some are basically not much more than a way for puppy mills to put papers on their dogs to better market them. Are the parents titled? Should they be titled or should they be proven in some other way? i.e. working ability vs. show championships. Do all the dogs on the premises (not just the puppies and their parents) appear to be healthy? What health guarantees are offered? How often are their females bred? Does the breeder have a contract to sign? Do they insist that any dog they sell be returned to them in the event that the buyer can't keep it sometime in the future? Does the breeder want to know everything about you (family members, children, other pets, type of residence, rent/own, fenced yard, etc.), or do you just hand over your money and be on your way with your new puppy? Will the breeder be willing/available to answer questions, offer tips etc. if you experience any difficulties raising your pup? Sometimes it seems like a lot to go through to get a dog/puppy but the good breeders really care about who they place their puppies with and the kind of life they'll have. Rescues are very similar, most will make you jump through hoops to prove that you're good enough to adopt one of their pets but it's because they care so much about making sure that the animal will have a forever home. These are all things to consider that will help to differentiate between the truly good, ethical breeders and the rest. And if you've done your research about the breed you're interested in, you'll know what to be looking for in a breeder, what questions to ask, and what things are red flags to watch out for.

I have to wonder why you think it is not possible for a working dog to get both conformation (show) titles and working titles? I know several breeders who not only put championships on ALL of their dogs but also but working titles on their dogs. The puppies that they sell go on to have not only wonderful show careers but excel in working venues such as herding, tracking, schutzhund, obedience, agility, and as Search and Rescue dogs.

Honestly - I think there is a huge difference between a "reputable" breeder and an "ethical" breeder. A reputable breeder breeds and sells puppies that will excel in a venue - be it working or conformation. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are concerned about any other aspect of their dogs besides what they are bred to do - be it looking good or working well. They may (or may not) be very concerned about where their puppies go and are willing to go the extra mile for puppy buyers.

An ethical breeder is not only concerned about breeding dogs that will do well in the venue that they enjoy - but they are truly concerned about the health and temperment of their dogs and the breed. They want to improve on the lines they have and breed dogs that meet the standard (in looks) and are capable of doing the job that they were meant to do. This most certainly is possible.

If the "working" border collie people in Canada are upset about their breed being excepted by the Canadian Kennel Club and concerned that bloodlines will become all about looks and not working ability - maybe they should take the time to become members of the National breed club. It is my understanding that the National breed clubs set the standard for the breed and the National registries use that standard when it comes to judging and such.

babymomma
September 19th, 2008, 09:52 AM
Say you had a very good breeder, That bought ckc registered dogs, very good health records, vet checked for hips, elbows, temperment etc. And they bred them for people that didnt want them for showing , and wanted them simply for pet purposes..when the dogs had puppies he or she had them vet checked, dewormed and had there first set of needles and sold them simply as pets without being CKC or AKC(etc) registered. Sells them for say, $500 to very good homes that have been screened. Maybe they are doing it for a hobby and obviously doesnt care about the money and sells them for the price of just vet bills and food. Would that make these people BYBs.. Just because the dogs arent shown or registered.. I just dont understand what falls under the category of byb, I mean i know a breeder that does the above, and he started this because alot of people cannot afford a $1300 dog just because it has a registered name or its parents are show champions and really want a certain breed of dog and people obviously want healthy dog.. Oh and this guy im talking about, takes the dogs back that he rohomes for any reason at all so they dont ebd up in a bad home or shelter..

mona_b
September 19th, 2008, 10:20 AM
I have to agree with you Sandi.

My sisters BC (RIP Abbey 05.29.08) came from both Conformation and Working title lines.You CAN have the best of both worlds.And it doesn't ruin the breed at all.Being on a farm with cattle,my sister was looking for a working dog to help.Abbey was amazing and she was a hard worker..Even to the end she wanted to work.She was 12 when she passed on.But when the work was done,she enjoyed the time playing with her sibblings.3 Sibes,and being with the family.



Now I have raised GSD's.All 3 have came from the same breeder.My breeder not only did confomation,but also SchH.They were titled in both.Only one of my three were working dogs.With my other two I didn't have to give them a job,I didn't have to keep them "busy".My current is a retired Police Dog.This breed wasn't bred for the force,they were trained for it.Tron knew when it was time to work,but he also knew that when he was home,it was play time.

Like you Sandi,I know many breeders who do both with their breeds.

eccentricities (barkers, diggers, chewers, good off leash or around other animals)

See to me this comes from the training.You don't correct this when it starts,it will not end.I hear so many times about Sibes digging,and can't be off leash.Yet my sister has 3,they are on a farm,not tied up when outside,never dug.2 are 11 and one is 12.She had them as pups.It took constent training.

Look at these dog actors.The Sibes on Snow Dog and Due South(canadian)I know Paul from the show.I have seen and been around the dogs used on Due South.The same breeder of these dogs also had one of her dogs on Snow Dogs.They can be trained off leash.The proof is in the Movies and shows.

LavenderRott
September 19th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Say you had a very good breeder, That bought ckc registered dogs, very good health records, vet checked for hips, elbows, temperment etc. And they bred them for people that didnt want them for showing , and wanted them simply for pet purposes..when the dogs had puppies he or she had them vet checked, dewormed and had there first set of needles and sold them simply as pets without being CKC or AKC(etc) registered. Sells them for say, $500 to very good homes that have been screened. Maybe they are doing it for a hobby and obviously doesnt care about the money and sells them for the price of just vet bills and food. Would that make these people BYBs.. Just because the dogs arent shown or registered.. I just dont understand what falls under the category of byb, I mean i know a breeder that does the above, and he started this because alot of people cannot afford a $1300 dog just because it has a registered name or its parents are show champions and really want a certain breed of dog and people obviously want healthy dog.. Oh and this guy im talking about, takes the dogs back that he rohomes for any reason at all so they dont ebd up in a bad home or shelter..

He most certainly is a BYBer!

The purpose of breeding should be to improve the breed. Period.

The testing you speak of (hips and elbows) is just a beginning and not something done by your vet. They are done by specialists in their field and need to be certified by either OFA or PENN. The reason for registering isn't so that you can charge more money - it is so that you can trace the heritage of the dog. Tracing that heritage is genetically important. By looking at the dogs pedigree you can see which dogs meet the standard and which dogs have been certified and cleared of crippling or fatal genetic diseases.

The whole reason for showing to be assure that the dog meets the standard as closely as possible. Read the standard for any breed. It talks about how every aspect of the dog should be "put together" so that it is best able to do it's job.

If you really do your homework - find a truly ethical breeder - and develope a relationship with said breeder, then $1300 is a small price to pay for a companion that you will have for 10 to 20 years with minimal health issues.

If you just want a dog, then going to a shelter or rescue group will provide you with a purebred dog of your choice that fits the description of what your friend is selling for $500.

BTW - I am betting money that your friend pays about $500 for the vetting of that litter of puppies he is selling for $500 a piece. So he most certainly IS making money. And considerably more then an ethical breeder as he certainly isn't spending near as much on the parents as an ethical breeder does.

mona_b
September 20th, 2008, 08:29 AM
Say you had a very good breeder, That bought ckc registered dogs, very good health records, vet checked for hips, elbows, temperment etc. And they bred them for people that didnt want them for showing , and wanted them simply for pet purposes..when the dogs had puppies he or she had them vet checked, dewormed and had there first set of needles and sold them simply as pets without being CKC or AKC registered

Ethical breeders have a contract.This means either a s/n or a non-breeding one.The non breeding one will only be taken off from the breeder ONLY when the dog has been shown and titled.So I can't really say that this person did purchase these dogs from one.Contracts are very important.I was on a neuter contract.I HAD to get my guys done.If not,I could have been sued.Some breeders do this.And they can.

Also babymomma,under the CKC pedigree act,it is ILLEGAL to sell unregistered pups if the parents ARE registered.This breeder shouldn't be doing this.And if someone by chance wants the papers and he doesn't provide them,they can get in contact with the CKC.

And once again,I agree with Sandi.:)

Gail P
September 20th, 2008, 11:53 PM
I have to wonder why you think it is not possible for a working dog to get both conformation (show) titles and working titles?

I think that border collies are quite versatile enough to be able to do anything you want with them, but that breeding them for conformation will affect the breed, maybe not immediately but down the road. Do you put a herding title on them first and then enter the showring, and do no breeding until your dog has been proven in both areas? Or do you put their show championship on them first and then attempt herding, possibly to find out that maybe this particular dog doesn't quite have what it takes to excel at herding. By then, have you perhaps already bred your show champion? If so, you are producing pups that look great but do not have as strong a desire to work stock. A few generations of this and the breed has been diminished to pretty dogs that have lost their original purpose, or the breed becomes divided into show dogs and working dogs. I'm sure that there would be some people who would indeed prove their dogs both ways before breeding, but not all would, in fact I'd go so far as to say that probably many wouldn't, if they're not first and foremost stockdog people.

Honestly - I think there is a huge difference between a "reputable" breeder and an "ethical" breeder.

Agreed.

They want to improve on the lines they have and breed dogs that meet the standard (in looks) and are capable of doing the job that they were meant to do. This most certainly is possible.

How can a breed be standardized when the individuals differ so greatly? Little dogs (sub-30 pounds) big dogs (50-60 pounds), smooth coat, rough coat, a multitude of colours - yet why does everyone who thinks of a border collie think of a fluffy black and white dog with perfect white markings? If dogs with a certain look are placing better than others in the showring, what kind of puppies are the breeders of show dogs going to be producing? If you selectively breed for a certain look, you may be passing over wonderfully strong herding ability, which is what this particular breed is all about. What does the farmer/rancher really care most about, if his dog can get the job done efficiently or if it looks good? Wonderful if you happen to have it all rolled into one pretty package, but the border collie is first and foremost a stockdog and that is what you want to be breeding into them, working ability. My own three purebred BC's all vary greatly in looks, one is a 45 pound smooth-coat black and white female with nice markings except for only having a bit of white on the back of her neck, one is a 55 pound black and white rough-coated male with nice white on his body but only minimal white on his face, and the youngest is a 58 pound giant of a puppy at only 10 months old. He's a long, lean coarser looking smooth-coated red & white puppy with uneven markings (face is nicely marked, but only one white leg and half his neck). He doesn't even look like a border collie to many people, they think he's some kind of mix-breed. He's been taken to sheep and has shown interest in working, which is something that we will be doing more of with him as he matures. Will he excel at herding? Too early to say. Would he do well in the show ring? Never. But he is every bit as much a full-blooded border collie as his fluffy black and white half-brother.

If the "working" border collie people in Canada are upset about their breed being excepted by the Canadian Kennel Club and concerned that bloodlines will become all about looks and not working ability - maybe they should take the time to become members of the National breed club. It is my understanding that the National breed clubs set the standard for the breed and the National registries use that standard when it comes to judging and such.

It's not just a Canadian point of view. Most of the members on the BC boards http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php are from the US and share a similar viewpoint. I believe that in every forum on that board there is a message titled something like "welcome to the BC Boards - Read this First" that explains the board views of preserving the border collie as a working breed.

Gail P
September 21st, 2008, 12:19 AM
See to me this comes from the training.You don't correct this when it starts,it will not end.I hear so many times about Sibes digging,and can't be off leash.Yet my sister has 3,they are on a farm,not tied up when outside,never dug.2 are 11 and one is 12.She had them as pups.It took constent training.


Absolutely the best thing anyone can do for their pup is start them out on the right foot by being consistent in their training. But, not everybody has the same level of expertise to train a dog and some breeds undeniably have certain tendencies over others that would make them harder to train, need more careful managing or are less suitable for certain living situations. Not every breed suits every person and some dogs are easier for a novice dog owner than others. I firmly stand by what I said that a person interested in getting a pup needs to know as much as possible about the breed they're interested in, and yes do the training so that their pup doesn't end up dumped in a shelter a few months down the road because they got in over their head.

The proof is in the Movies and shows.
Have you ever heard the saying "don't believe everything you see on TV?" :laughing: I'm just kidding, I'm sure that they are smart and wonderful dogs and I have nothing against Sibes whatsoever. I just got a chuckle over that particular saying. Please don't take offence, I just couldn't resist :o

LavenderRott
September 21st, 2008, 07:05 AM
How can a breed be standardized when the individuals differ so greatly? Little dogs (sub-30 pounds) big dogs (50-60 pounds), smooth coat, rough coat, a multitude of colours - yet why does everyone who thinks of a border collie think of a fluffy black and white dog with perfect white markings?

Breed standards differ from breed to breed and are set by the National breed club. You certainly wouldn't judge a border collie by the rottweiler standard! The breed standard for the rottweiler is the same in virtually every country they are registered in with the exception of the tail. European bred and whelped dogs have tails and most bred and whelped in the U.S and Canada do not.

The reason that most people think that border collies are black and white fluffy dogs with perfect white markings is because that is the prevelant picture most people see. It clearly states in the AKC breed standard that all colors are allowed and the only fault in white markings are that they shouldn't be predominant. You can read the standard for yourself here: http://www.akc.org/breeds/border_collie/index.cfm

Now, I don't hang out with border collie people but I do hang out with rottweiler people and many of them are not only very active in showing in conformation, but they also herd, track and do schutzhund. While most but conformation titles on their dogs first (a dog who works is often leaner and more muscular then most AKC judges like to see) this does not mean that a dog doesn't see sheep or ducks until it gets a championship. Most are exposed and have started training long before they trial.

I think that border collies are quite versatile enough to be able to do anything you want with them, but that breeding them for conformation will affect the breed, maybe not immediately but down the road. Do you put a herding title on them first and then enter the showring, and do no breeding until your dog has been proven in both areas? Or do you put their show championship on them first and then attempt herding, possibly to find out that maybe this particular dog doesn't quite have what it takes to excel at herding. By then, have you perhaps already bred your show champion? If so, you are producing pups that look great but do not have as strong a desire to work stock. A few generations of this and the breed has been diminished to pretty dogs that have lost their original purpose, or the breed becomes divided into show dogs and working dogs. I'm sure that there would be some people who would indeed prove their dogs both ways before breeding, but not all would, in fact I'd go so far as to say that probably many wouldn't, if they're not first and foremost stockdog people.


No - honestly if I was looking for a border collie puppy I would expect to see not only titles on both ends of the name of both sire and dam - but I would expect to see OFA or PENN numbers for both certifying hips, elbows and hearts and I would expect CERFs certifying eyes. Certifications can't be done before a dog's 2nd birthday anyway - so you have plenty of time for showing before you even consider breeding. The point of breeding is to preserve the breed - so you breed the best to the best. If your show dog doesn't show a lot of working drive - then you breed to a dog that does. Provided, of course, that your working dog also meets the standard and has been shown to PROVE that it meets the standard.

You may well be right that the borders' work ethic will decline due to recognition by the CKC. To be honest - the sight of a show German Shepherd makes me cry. I honestly can't see how those poor dogs can NOT have hip and elbow issues as the breed them for the look they are now. Used to be, they were stacked in the ring to get that long, low look.

The trick is to EDUCATE. If everyone that wanted a dog would simply do their homework - know about the breed they are interested in, from coat to temperment to health issues. Know what to look for in a REAL breeder.

Gail P
September 21st, 2008, 12:48 PM
You certainly wouldn't judge a border collie by the rottweiler standard!

Of course not, and that's not what I meant. I meant that within the border collie breed there can be tiny dogs, big dogs, different coat types, different ear sets etc. since they were originally bred for their abilities and not their looks.

The point of breeding is to preserve the breed - so you breed the best to the best.

Agreed

If your show dog doesn't show a lot of working drive - then you breed to a dog that does.

This is where I strongly disagree. When we're talking about border collies, a dog without working drive and proven herding ability should never be bred, regardless of how well it did in the show ring. Both parents should be proven working dogs to maintain the integrity of the breed.

You may well be right that the borders' work ethic will decline due to recognition by the CKC. To be honest - the sight of a show German Shepherd makes me cry. I honestly can't see how those poor dogs can NOT have hip and elbow issues as the breed them for the look they are now. Used to be, they were stacked in the ring to get that long, low look.

It is sad to see that happen to a breed. It happens with horses too. Quarter horses for example. There are the performance horses and then there are the halter horses with huge muscled bodies and tiny feet. Could those halter horses ever do what they were bred for, race a 1/4 mile without breaking down? Not likely.

The trick is to EDUCATE. If everyone that wanted a dog would simply do their homework - know about the breed they are interested in, from coat to temperment to health issues. Know what to look for in a REAL breeder.

Yes, yes, yes, I couldn't agree more.

LavenderRott
September 21st, 2008, 01:54 PM
I meant that within the border collie breed there can be tiny dogs, big dogs, different coat types, different ear sets etc. since they were originally bred for their abilities and not their looks.


LOL!

The standard gives a size range, different coat types and different colors.

Every breed that is registerable with the "reputable" registries (AKC, Canadian KC, UKC) has a well developed history and original breeders bred not only for ability but also for a look. If the look wasn't, to some extent, important then every dog with excellent herding ability would be a border collie no matter what the size or look. Or if the dog was great at schutzhund it would be called a Malinios. It is the standard which tells everyone what the breed should be - according to history.

If your best BC, working wise, was a tiny 25 pound bitch - would you really want to breed her? No matter what the work ethic - the breed is most certainly meant to be larger then that and one would hope that a breeder who truly loves the breed wouldn't.

Gail P
September 21st, 2008, 10:19 PM
The standard gives a size range, different coat types and different colors.

Just because the standard may accept many different looks, doesn't mean that all will place equally as well in the show ring. If a certain "type" becomes the judges preference that is what people will be breeding to attain, regardless of how many other looks are acceptable, and if breeding for a specific look takes precedence over breeding for working ability it is to the detriment of the breed. I recall when we had great danes and were talking with one breeder who retired from showing her dogs just because of such a thing. Her dogs were of heavier European lines but the leaner American lines had become more favourable in the ring. Her particular "type" of dane was out of favour in the show ring so rather than begin breeding to fit into the ring she retired from showing and stayed true to the lines which had produced her many champions in the past.

If your best BC, working wise, was a tiny 25 pound bitch - would you really want to breed her? No matter what the work ethic - the breed is most certainly meant to be larger then that and one would hope that a breeder who truly loves the breed wouldn't.

Is that statement not a contradiction of sorts to what you said earlier? You suggested breeding a show champion with less than stellar working ability to a dog with strong drive as a form of compensation, (trying to breed back in the drive/instincts that should inherently already be there). Why could you not breed that 25 pound high drive bitch to a larger high drive dog and produce pups that will grow to be average sized adults, well within the breed "standard" and will do the job they'e meant to do? I'm just curious why you think it's okay to compensate in one area but not the other? :shrug:

Here is something you may find interesting, it is an excerpt from http://www.bordercollie.org/bcchar.html if you wish to read the whole page.

"Appearance
While a group of one hundred Border Collies will probably look as if they belong to the same breed, they will not have a uniform appearance. Since a "good" dog can be judged only by its herding performance, there is no "breed standard" of appearance to which Border Collies should conform. In general, they are of medium size (25-55 pounds), with coats that may be smooth, medium, or rough. Colors are black, black with tan, and, less common, reddish-brown, all usually with white markings. Predominantly white Border Collies and merles, though unusual, also occasionally appear.

Border Collie Registries
The original registry for working sheepdogs is the International Sheep Dog Society in Great Britain. In 1946 two words, "Border Collie," were added to the pedigree to ensure that the dogs were not confused with the British Kennel Club's Collie. In North America, the principal registry for working dogs is the American Border Collie Association, Inc. (www.americanbordercollie.org), 82 Rogers Road, Perkinston, MS 39573. The only registry of Canadian Border Collies is the Canadian Border Collie Association (www.canadianbordercollies.org), Werner Reitbock, Secretary, Box 424, Winchester, ON, K0C 2K0, Canada. The United States Border Collie Club, Inc., supports these registries for their efforts to preserve and promote the working Border Collie.

Despite strong opposition from all people who value the genetic heritage of the breed, both the Kennel Club in Great Britain and the American Kennel Club have taken up the registration of Border Collies. They have imposed written physical standards as breeding guidelines and award titles for conformation in dog shows. In Australia, New Zealand, and Britain, where a strain of Border Collies has been bred for dog shows for twenty years or more, those dogs have a predictable physical type, but their ability to herd livestock has been severely compromised.

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc., opposes registering Border Collies with organizations, such as the American Kennel Club, which offer conformation classes for Border Collies. Since its formation in 1975, a primary purpose of the USBCC has been to protect working Border Collies from misguided efforts to create a breed based on physical characteristics instead of on skill in herding livestock.

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc.
The USBCC is the oldest Border Collie breed club in North America. Founded to protect the Border Collie's unique genetic heritage, protecting the Border Collie remains the club's task today. It took five hundred years of single-minded breeding to produce the Border Collie. In the latter part of the twentieth century it took only a couple of decades for dog-show fanciers in several sheep-raising countries to reduce their selected strain to just another pretty pet."

catlover2
September 22nd, 2008, 05:05 PM
We are thinking of getting a puppy. There are so many ads in the paper and on-line. How do you tell if it's a reputable breeder or a puppy mill? What are the signs to look for?

I'm new to this forum, but I would like to make a comment about Puppy Mills. They don't always sell through pet stores. What I've noticed is that people who run these ads in papers are "agents" for puppy mills....they have frequent ads, often with different pups--usually they are the little "designer" breeds, such as cockapoos, yorkiepoos, another week or so schnauzers, maltese, peekapoos etc. Sometimes, these sellers claim to have a "health guarantee", and they are never sold already neutered or spayed. If you ask about the parentage of the pups, you'll probably get a story like I did, that they don't know but it's a favour "for a friend who lives up north, and Toronto people won't drive that far to see the pups".

If you buy a "designer" pup from a newspaper ad, you are supporting puppy mills or backyard breeders.

Kitty1963
July 29th, 2014, 12:46 AM
I've seen reputable breeders that have way too many dogs as breeding stock. Do these dogs really have a good quality of life? Are they part of a family? Are they pets or just an experiment for someone with an ego to "improve the breed?" How is that any different then someone crossing 2 different breeds to make a "designer" dog. I prefer larger breed dogs but have to wear a uniform to work so I wanted a low shedding dog. My options were limited.
Not all back yard breeders are criminals just in it for the money.
I have a Golden/Poodle crossbreed and a Lab/Poodle crossbreed. They were purchased from a farm that had a purebred pedigreed Lab and Golden as well as a pedigreed poodle. The dogs were the owner's pets. They were well trained and were obviously loved.
My dogs are 9 years old and in perfect health and are both very smart and well trained.

Longblades
July 29th, 2014, 09:24 AM
I've seen reputable breeders that have way too many dogs as breeding stock. Do these dogs really have a good quality of life? Are they part of a family? Are they pets or just an experiment for someone with an ego to "improve the breed?" How is that any different then someone crossing 2 different breeds to make a "designer" dog. I prefer larger breed dogs but have to wear a uniform to work so I wanted a low shedding dog. My options were limited.
Not all back yard breeders are criminals just in it for the money.
I have a Golden/Poodle crossbreed and a Lab/Poodle crossbreed. They were purchased from a farm that had a purebred pedigreed Lab and Golden as well as a pedigreed poodle. The dogs were the owner's pets. They were well trained and were obviously loved.
My dogs are 9 years old and in perfect health and are both very smart and well trained.

Seems to me the obvious answer to the scenarios you question is no, those would not be considered reputable breeders. And I agree that not all BYB are criminals. I would consider most to be ignorant but not malicious. Ignorant of the fact they can help ensure a new puppy has the best life possible by making sure the parents are health tested. Some tests are a gene test, for CNM or EIC in Labs for instance, where the puppy can be sure to never get those diseases. Also by providing conformationally sound parents to ensure a puppy from them has the best chance to be active in it's new family with less chance of developing lameness or injury that would limit it.

Don't confuse purebred with well bred. Simply being purebred and registered with the Canadian KC or the AKC is not in and of itself an indication of good breeding.

Are your dogs non shedding? Crossing a Poodle does not guarantee the result will be non shedding. You were lucky if they don't shed. Yours could have ended with the Lab or Golden gene for coat and been shedders. Like the expensive designer goldendoodle dog my friends got as a pup being assured the thing wouldn't shed. They have a very ill, immune compromised son. It shed. It shed tons of hair. Luckily their son was ok but he was devastated when the dog did develop severe illness itself and lived to only not much past one year old.

ETA: On re-read perhaps it's not clear I mean purebred and registered is a first step towards well bred. And, it is possible that crosses of purebreds from reputable breeders are health tested for the conditions prevalent in their breed. Don't happen to know of any, but it's possible.

Barkingdog
July 29th, 2014, 10:26 AM
My dad got a female German Shepherd puppy that was about 4 months old from a 'pure bred' breeder . As soon I saw the poor puppy I knew she was very sick , my dad was an old man and did not know he was sold a sick dog.
It was very heartbreaking b/c she was really sweet dog and dad got the dog more for me. The puppy die a few days after dad brought her , I am pretty sure she had distemper and was at her end when dad brought her home.
Being a pure bred breeder means nothing if the person breeding the dogs is dishonest.