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Raw food for pets - BARF diet

Copper'sMom
May 25th, 2006, 12:52 AM
Those of you who feed RAW, tell us everything you know about it, how to go about it, how to prepare, store and whatever else may need to be done to the food in order to serve it to our dogs!! Where to buy it, what to look for and whatever else you can think of we may need to know! I'm sure I'll have dumb questions even after all your info is here!

This is my new thread about RAW so my other thread about cheaper dog food(http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=26579) didn't get hijacked with all this new info!!

I, myself, don't like touching raw meat because it just grosses me out:yuck: , but if it's good for my babies, then I'll do it for them! I'm not a big meat eater either, so my knowledge of meat preparation and storage etc. is minimal - ok so are my overall cooking skills but hey, that's what take out is for!!!!! LOL:crazy:

Let the lesson begin!!!

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 08:37 AM
there is so much to tell, yet so little! :D All i can say is that, after doing it for over two years now and knowing plenty of other folks who do, too - man, is it ever eeeeaaaasyyyy. all that hoopla about bacteria and veggie mush and storage and mess? it's just that: hoopla!
i started out with the BARF model and not only was it time-consuming, it gave my boy the runs: it was too complicated. He unfortunately was one of the 5% or so of dogs who just does not like raw food, so he's been on kibble for 6 months now and you know what? his coat is crappy, his teeth are yellow, and when the summer rush is over he is going back on raw whether he likes it or not.
So, i have now adopted (loosely!) the prey-model diet, my 7-mth old girl loves it and in fact i cannot get her to eat a fruit or a veggie no matter what i do to it, LOL! she just looks at me like but moooom, i'm a carnivore! :p
Storage: a little chest-freezer, and a plastic bin in the fridge for the defrosted stuff. i clean it every couple od days when i think about it. no big deal, no human food touches it.
Buying meats: i found a couple of butchers who have good prices on staples like beef heart, organ meats, ground beef, & goat. Green tripe i buy from holistic petstore. I check the weekly sales flyers for good deals on turkey, chicken and pork. Eggs are always cheap and i stock up on canned fish at the dollar store. My dogs rarely like raw fish, so i've stopped buying it. I also add plain yogurt, cottage cheese, olive oil, canned dog food, etc to the diet. And because i believe variety is the key to a healthy diet, my girl often gets a frozen whole-wheat bagel or slice of bread to snack on, sometimes with peanut-butter or cream cheese. Both dogs looove this :) oh and a couple times per week they get plate leftovers like pasta, soup, meat bits, cheese etc mixed in their dinners.
some dogs like their meats lightly seared, or room temp, or semi-frozen, or completely frozen. The warmer the weather, the colder they like their food. really up to you to experiment in what your dog likes, it's really fun too.
And for those who think all this is time-consuming... Once per month, it takes me 30 mins for a round-trip to the butcher's, and another 2 minutes to dump everything in the freezer. About 4 times/ week, before going to bed, i pull out stuff and let defrost in a big bowl on the counter overnight. Breakfast = select a piece of meat/ meaty bone, drop in dog's bowl, put bowl down, store the rest in the plastic bin in the fridge, wash hands.
OK i'm sure you have questions, i don't have time right now to write a book, LOL - ask away! :highfive:

Puppyluv
May 25th, 2006, 08:58 AM
I just started raw a little while ago, so I'm still lerning. I've read about 8 books and 20 websites on it, but I stil have sooo much to learn. I'm pretty similar to technodoll, except that Layla adores fish, so I include raw fish in the diet, most of the time you can find this pretty cheap from a fish monger, but a month or so out of th year, prices do rise, so stock up when there are sales! (having a deep freeze is an asset!) I also give Layla veggies, but that is because she looooooovves them! zthey are by no means a major source of calories, more of somethig to chew on.
Layla doesn't do that well on chicken beef or pork (what is interesting, is that commercial dog fod with these meat in it gives her a HORRIBLE allergic reaction, where as these meats when served raw, only give her a minor reaction) So I stick to fish, lamb, duck, rabbit, venison and of course eggs. These are deffinately more expensive meats than chicken pork and beef, but it is still cheaper than kibble. (I get my food from a couple of butchers and mongers depending on the meat). I don't grind my bones, 99% of the time, bones don't need to be ground, only if your dog has certain medical conditions.
I keep a small rubbermaid container in my freezer with the portioned meat/fish in it. Then I have another one in my fridge, set up so that there are two of the same size stacked up (no lids). The inside container has small holes punched in it so that if the defrsoting meat leaks any liquids, they fall into the second container and the meat isn't sitting in a pile of liquid. This makes it a little easier to deal with.
I don't eat a lot of meat either, so I really only work with Layla's meat. So long as you keep your counters, fridge and freezer, dishes and hands clean, you shouldn't have to worry about pathogens.
While I was researching, I found this product http://www.bravorawdiet.com/ which is prepackaged raw. I see no need to use it because Raw is so easy. But if you're really squeamish about the meat, it might be an idea.

BoxerRescueMTL
May 25th, 2006, 10:00 AM
Everything they said! Oh and check out ethnic grocery stores and China town for variety and good prices. Variety is key, don't get stuck in a rut of feeding the same thing all the time. Green tripe is an excellent source of nutrition and it is cheap cheap cheap. I get my green tripe from http://www.poshnosh.ca as I do my harder to find meat/bones/carcasses like bison, venison, quail, pheasant etc. I like to use white vinegar in a psray bottle to clean, it is all natural, inexpensive and kills everything. I also feed more of a prey model style, in that I tend to feed carcasses w/meat and organs and not really many veggies etc. Although the dogs do get treats and food from the table all the time.

meb999
May 25th, 2006, 10:12 AM
very interesting thread!

How do you keep your dogs from dragging their food everywhere? The minute I give Buster a bone, he runs away with it...I can't imagine what he would if I gave him a whole carcass :eek:

Also, do you clean your dogs face after he eats, so he doesn't kiss you with his bacteria tongue? (sorry if these are stupid questions...)

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 10:16 AM
you can feed your dog in his crate, or designate a "feeding area" with a mat, for example, some feed outside and some feed in the kitchen, up to you to show your dog where he is allowed to eat :)

and no, i do not wash my dog,s face after she eats, her mouth takes care of any bacteria... she's free to kiss me anytime and nobody has ever gotten sick. (don't you know... dogs love to lick their privates, their dirty feet, the floor etc when you'Re not looking and then they come and kiss you? :yuck: THAT is worse, LOL)

BoxerRescueMTL
May 25th, 2006, 10:17 AM
I have a bunch of old towels that I throw down and the boys are used to having to stay on them now. Of course they still try to make a quick get away once in a while, but I catch them and put them back. They rarely try anymore. I don't wash their faces after, butI don't get too close after either - especially after tripe!!! heehee..I'm not worried about their bacteria kisses.

meb999
May 25th, 2006, 10:17 AM
(don't you know... dogs love to lick their privates, their dirty feet, the floor etc when you'Re not looking and then they come and kiss you? :yuck: THAT is worse, LOL)

LOL!!! :D :D :D

Puppyluv
May 25th, 2006, 10:20 AM
Not stupid at all Meb! Funny you should ask about the dragging the food around, as just a few days ago, I started a thread on that one. (Eating on my carpet). Layla would take mouthfulls of food over to my carpet and eat it there :yuck: Technodoll made a great suggestion that solved the prob entirely: go buy a couple of those carpeted door entrance mats (the big ones), put her bowl next to it, and it has become her area to eat the food. I have a couple so that I can rotate (one is in use, one is being washed/dried, one is clean).

I've only ever had to wash layla's face when she first started out, and she would get juice all over her. I usually give her paws a good wipe after, but we usually go for a walk shortly after, and she goes for a swim and cleans herself off.

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 10:24 AM
don't wash their faces after, butI don't get too close after either - especially after tripe!!! heehee..

oh my gosh!!! OK yes, that is the one exception!! after eating tripe: stay. away. from. me!!! why does it have to smell so bad, LOL! :eek:

Puppyluv
May 25th, 2006, 10:33 AM
http://www.greentripe.com/yvettegottripehappydogs.jpg

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 10:40 AM
ROTFLMAO!! oh my gosh where did you get that?
booooooaaaaaaaaaahahhahaha! :D :D :D

Copper'sMom
May 25th, 2006, 10:48 AM
ok, a few questions:
1)How do I know how much to feed each dog - so I know they are full, but not being over fed??
2)Do you think they will be happy being fed RAW once a day and then maybe having kibble down for later in the day?? Because of my work schedule, I can only feed RAW in the morning/early afternoon time(I can't count on anyone else to feed them RAW). I work afternoon shift and don't get home until midnight and they usually like to stay in bed or just cuddle when it's that late. They never eat that late!!
3)What about rice? Do you feed them rice?? What kind of rice??
4)You really don't cook the meat?? I don't think they will be to particular on their food temperatures IMO, but i won't know until i try it!
5)So I can go to the grocery store, buy a bag of chicken thighs or legs and they can eat them the way they are???? Except of course, I'd rinse them well first! Even the bones too right - as long as they are NOT cooked??
6)Can they eat RAW liver??? I thought I heard it had to be cooked, but i don't remember the reason why.
7)Do I have to worry about supplements for them??

Ok that's it for now!:eek:

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 10:59 AM
1)How do I know how much to feed each dog - so I know they are full, but not being over fed??
Dogs will eat about 1.5-2% of their body weight in raw food per day. some eat more, some eat less, depends on metabolism, age, activity level, etc. After a few weeks of raw feeding, if your dog looks thin: feed more, if he looks fat: feed less.

2)Do you think they will be happy being fed RAW once a day and then maybe having kibble down for later in the day?? Because of my work schedule, I can only feed RAW in the morning/early afternoon time(I can't count on anyone else to feed them RAW). I work afternoon shift and don't get home until midnight and they usually like to stay in bed or just cuddle when it's that late. They never eat that late!!
Any raw is better than no raw at all, so yes this would work. just don't feed both at the same time or you will have gaaaaas to deal with, LOL!

3)What about rice? Do you feed them rice?? What kind of rice??
sure, if you want. any kind of rice. some raw-feeders add grains, some don't... the beauty of this diet is it's all up to YOU what to feed your dog, and you know exactly the quality & quantity going down the hatch.

4)You really don't cook the meat?? I don't think they will be to particular on their food temperatures IMO, but i won't know until i try it!
a raw diet is just that... completely raw. some dogs don't know what a raw hunk of meat is, so you might have to LIGHTLY sear it to get the juices flowing, then wean off this practice when doggy knows what to do with that chicken leg or pork butt.

5)So I can go to the grocery store, buy a bag of chicken thighs or legs and they can eat them the way they are???? Except of course, I'd rinse them well first! Even the bones too right - as long as they are NOT cooked??
exactly, yes. JUST like that. perhaps at first trim off most of the fat (too much can cause loose stools), eventually when doggy has nice solid small odorless stools, you can increase the fatty parts. it all depends on the dog!

6)Can they eat RAW liver??? I thought I heard it had to be cooked, but i don't remember the reason why.
absolutely. that is the better way to feed organ meats. however mine haaaaaate raw liver & kidneys, so i have to bake them half-way, sigh. even frozen they hate the texture. but some dogs go crazy for it.

7)Do I have to worry about supplements for them??
not really. i add a daily Esther-C and Vit E as well as Fish Oil capsule, sometimes kelp & alfalfa, but many raw-feeder's don't add a thing.

meb999
May 25th, 2006, 12:05 PM
for everyone who switch to raw from kibble : How long was the 'detox' period? I've heard it can be up to like 8 months :eek: I don't know that I could deal with 8 months of diarhea?! :o

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 12:39 PM
with my boy (aka mister fragile-gut), he often had diarhhea and mucousy stools, NOW i know it was all MY fault for not feeding him correctly from the beginning (too much variety too soon, too many veggies, too many supplements, etc). with my girl, from day 1 we switched her cold-turkey from cheap kibble to prey-model raw and not ONE single soft poop. no gas. perfection all the way :crazy:
so know your dog's gut (iron stomach, fragile, or somewhere in between), forget BARF and go for prey-model raw, go slloooowwwwly and everything will be fine! :o

BoxerRescueMTL
May 25th, 2006, 01:00 PM
http://www.greentripe.com/yvettegottripehappydogs.jpg
HAHAHA!! That is soooo funny!
Marie Eve, When I switched Vegas around 2 1/2 yrs ago now he had a detox period because, like technodoll, I rushed into too much variety too fast. With all my other dogs (Monty, Olive, Dudley) they switched cold turkey with zero detox! No runny poop at all. They were pros from the start. Actually Uncle Monty started himself on raw, lol. I left him home alone one day with a bag of lamb bones thawing in the sink (I thought they were safe there...so naive!). I came home and he had eaten them all. Lol, he was still my foster dog at this point but I think that's when we decided he was staying with us.

SarahLynn123
May 25th, 2006, 01:29 PM
I have a few questions!

My GSD is 70lbs, so she would eat about 1.4lbs of food. Is this just raw meat, or does the 1.4lbs include veggies and whatever else we throw in there? Does it also include the bones that they wont beable to eat? (thigh bones etc)

When we go on vacation is it OK to feed kibble for that time? It would be very tough to feed a raw diet at someone elses house or in the car!!!

Im sure I will think up more question s shortly!!!

Thanks
Sarah

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 01:54 PM
My GSD is 70lbs, so she would eat about 1.4lbs of food. Is this just raw meat, or does the 1.4lbs include veggies and whatever else we throw in there? Does it also include the bones that they wont beable to eat? (thigh bones etc)


the 1.4 lbs you calculated (round it up to 1.5!) includes *everything*, as long as you remember that a proper prey model diet is:
-10 to 15% bones
-60% meat
-10% organs
-the rest is "other stuff" ie fish, eggs, grains & dairy if you choose to feed that, table scraps, etc

and a GSD is more than capable of eating all the bones in chicken, duck, rabbit, quail, cornish hen, etc - what you want to watch out for are the weight-bearing bones of large ungulates, as well as thick pork leg bones. too hard to break & they can actually chip teeth, so supervise if given to the dog as a chew-toy. Many dogs power through a whole turkey but my big boy has trouble with the wing & leg bones, he breaks them into chunks and swallows whole, they come out of his butt in a mess sooooo i don't offer those to him. he has no problems with the neck, back & ribcage bones though.

btw, bones that don't get broken down into paste in the strong digestive stomach juices (it happens sometimes) usually come up the next day, we call them the "urka gurkas", very efficient digestive system those dogs have! ;)

phoenix
May 25th, 2006, 02:18 PM
the 1.4 lbs you calculated (round it up to 1.5!) includes *everything*, as long as you remember that a proper prey model diet is:
-10 to 15% bones
-60% meat
-10% organs
-the rest is "other stuff" ie fish, eggs, grains & dairy if you choose to feed that, table scraps, etc

Just to add to that: To make it easier, from my understanding you don't have to feed that percentage at every meal, you just have to ensure that overall, that's what they are eating. You could even break those percentages over a week (for your dog, about 10 lbs a week, so 1 to 1.5 lbs of bone, 6 lbs of meat, 1 lb of organ, whatever...) it's not an exact science. Technodoll, am I right? (this is not my area of expertise...)
I probably should move in that direction. I have 130 lbs of dog to feed though, that's a lot of freezer space. Right now I do about 1 in every 3 meals is raw. I stock up on chicken backs and when legs go on for less than 69 cents! Once in a while our farmers market people have lamb rib cages which are big favorites around here. But my guys won't eat raw organ meat either. Weird!

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 02:34 PM
yes phoenix, you are right :) except that i would caution with special-case dogs (pregnant or lactating bitches, dogs with a medical condition, etc) one should seek professional advice from the raw-feeding forum or a holistic vet. also for growing puppies, i would feed a little bone every day for regular calcium intake, but for the rest, variety over time will make a complete diet. who ever invented this "every meal needs to be complete and balanced" crap? oh yeah... the petfood companies, LOL! :rolleyes:

SarahLynn123
May 25th, 2006, 02:59 PM
Thanks! I have always wanted to feed raw but I felt like I didn't know enough about it.

Couple more questions! Where is the best places to buy these meats and parts, and organs! and how much in general does it cost? I find grocery stores quite expensive. I have 3 dogs but the other 2 are really small so they wouldnt be a problem. ah yes, and I live in Calgary and do have an extra deep freezer that we dont use!

Last question for now, is there any good, easy to read and understand books on raw diets? I like to know everyting possible before I start something new. Im a research maniac!!!

BoxerRescueMTL
May 25th, 2006, 03:16 PM
http://lepusreg.tripod.com/NRS.html
There's a reading list at the top of this page. And if you scroll down you can find farmers that are "raw friendly" as well as some premade raw companies (but those can get pricey and I'm not a fan of premade. Although I love http://www.poshnosh.ca because they are not premixed, they sell big chunks of meat and carcasses, their prices are not too bad and their stuff is always super fresh) The "BARF" forum on http://www.boxerworld.com is very very helpful (even if you don't have a boxer!) and it's not strictly "BARF" method.

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 03:32 PM
everything you need, in one place....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

do join, it's 4000+ members with a wealth of experience!! :highfive:

SarahLynn123
May 25th, 2006, 03:56 PM
Thanks! Theres a place right down the road from where I live!!!!

I talked to my boyfriend and it looks like we may give the raw diet a try!

Im getting all excited! I heard that it is cheaper then feeding kibble to! If thats the case, that would be great as we are on a tight budget.

Thanks for the info!

Sarah

SarahLynn123
May 25th, 2006, 04:13 PM
everything you need, in one place....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

do join, it's 4000+ members with a wealth of experience!! :highfive:


I signed up, but how long does it take to get approval to join?

Thanks
Sarah

SunGurl372
May 25th, 2006, 06:57 PM
When we go on vacation is it OK to feed kibble for that time? It would be very tough to feed a raw diet at someone elses house or in the car!!!

Very good question that I'm interested in seeing someone answer. I can't feed RAW now, until I move into a house that has space for a decent size freezer.

If I decide to do it, I have to take into account that there are two weeks a year that without fail Harley has to be boarded at her vet's. If I fed raw all year round, what would happen for those two weeks? Will kennels feed RAW? Somehow I doubt it, where would they have the space? Do you have to basically detox your dog back on to kibble, leading to these boarding times?

Harley is super-sensitive to food changes, as my carpet can attest to (may it rest in peace!).

BoxerRescueMTL
May 25th, 2006, 07:18 PM
I signed up, but how long does it take to get approval to join?Thanks
Sarah
You should have approval within 24hrs, sometimes quicker.

technodoll
May 25th, 2006, 07:43 PM
ok so you feed raw, but you're going on vacation and doggy has to be boarded... a simple solution is to purchase a freeze-dried raw diet for these occasions (such as http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=1939553&page=1334&-session=naturesvariety:18CB073B0cd1a2F596Pvp149EA3 2) and voila, problem solved.

when we travel with the pooches, we fill a cooler with frozen meat chunks and pack with ice, and when we get to our destination it all goes in the fridge or freezer. takes a while to thaw, and we supplement with canned fish, pasta, we buy local meats... where there is a will, there is a way :)

meb999
May 25th, 2006, 09:44 PM
This is a GREAT thread....

mafiaprincess
May 25th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Bravo is currently stateside.. Looked easier to me than feeding 'acutal' raw.

Some kennels will feed bravo and suppliments without a problem though.

Copper'sMom
May 26th, 2006, 02:37 AM
Another question:
Can I just give the dogs their slab of meat without having to cut it up(except trimming excess fat) and let them chew, rip, and tear it up themselves as they would do in the wild?

When they eat RAW soup bones now, they get white, pasty looking poops that appear hard(I haven't actually touched it to see if it is hard!). Is this ok?? I often thought that Copper gets sort of constipated from eating the bones.:confused:

Raw eggs or cooked eggs? How many raw eggs - is there such a thing as too much?

What about things like cow tongue, feet of some sort, and other things I've seeen in the grocery store supposedly there for human consumption?? They are usually pretty cheap, and they are in the meat department - are they nutritional in any way??

And RAW hamburger is good for them too?

with my boy (aka mister fragile-gut), he often had diarhhea and mucousy stools, NOW i know it was all MY fault for not feeding him correctly from the beginning (too much variety too soon, too many veggies, too many supplements, etc). with my girl, from day 1 we switched her cold-turkey from cheap kibble to prey-model raw and not ONE single soft poop. no gas. perfection all the way
My boy is the same way but on kibble! Diarhhea happens 2-3 times a week but only once a day - looks just like a cow paddy. Some poops are fine, others are runny.:confused: His tummy has always been a little sensitive from time to time. Zoe too, has the occasional cow paddy. And they BOTH have GAS!!:yuck: Frequently - a daily basis, almost with every movement they make!! LOL

phoenix
May 26th, 2006, 08:23 AM
for the diarrhea, you can try a tbs of pumpkin... the canned kind, pure (not the pie filling). I freeze pumpkin by the tbs so when I need it, I have it. For the gas, I give yogurt every day... the kind with live bacterial cultures seems to work best... with a boxer, I have to, just to be able to cohabitate!

technodoll
May 26th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Copper's mom:

Can I just give the dogs their slab of meat without having to cut it up(except trimming excess fat) and let them chew, rip, and tear it up themselves as they would do in the wild?
...yes that is the best way to feed raw - cleans their teeth, massages their gums, works their jaw, neck & shoulder muscles, gives a good mental work-out... quite satisfying for your little carnivore!

When they eat RAW soup bones now, they get white, pasty looking poops that appear hard(I haven't actually touched it to see if it is hard!). Is this ok?? I often thought that Copper gets sort of constipated from eating the bones.
...too much bone will lead to white, chalkish poops. the prey-model diet recommends no more than 20% edible bone overall, the rest meat & other foods. If you see your dog straining to poop, he's eating too much bone.

Raw eggs or cooked eggs? How many raw eggs - is there such a thing as too much?
...raw is better, some feed frozen in the shell for a refreshing summer treat (peeled or not), some feed lightly scrambled or poached, it all depends on what your dog likes and how much you want to "cook" for him. same thing for quantity: some dogs can't eat more than one egg at a time or they get the runs, others can scarf down 4 or 5. it really is a trial-and-error kinda thing.

What about things like cow tongue, feet of some sort, and other things I've seeen in the grocery store supposedly there for human consumption?? They are usually pretty cheap, and they are in the meat department - are they nutritional in any way??
...absolutely! and the more variety you feed, the better. The "frankenprey" model diet reconstitutes an animal as it would appear in nature, and it's fun to try to recreate that with various animal parts: in a week, you might feed a couple pig's feet (more for recreational chewing than actual meat), a pork butt, some ground beef or whole brisket, some beef heart, a couple chicken legs, some liver, some tongue, some pork ribs, a turkey neck, perhaps some lungs, a few eggs... makes sense eh?

And RAW hamburger is good for them too?
...yes on occasion & make sure it is fresh. any ground meat spoils faster than whole chunks (more surface area for bacteria to play in). i like to mix it with ground green tripe, or some raw eggs, sometimes with yogurt or canned fish for variety & nutrition.

My boy is the same way but on kibble! Diarhhea happens 2-3 times a week but only once a day - looks just like a cow paddy. Some poops are fine, others are runny. His tummy has always been a little sensitive from time to time. Zoe too, has the occasional cow paddy. And they BOTH have GAS!! Frequently - a daily basis, almost with every movement they make!! LOL
...yep, grains give gas, lots of gas... eliminate those grains and almost guaranteed, you will eliminate the digestive problems. when my boy was younger, ANY kibbles gave him dinosaur-sized cow patties, it was frightening how much poop came out of that little body. so, even if he didn't like raw that much, that's what he got to control his tummy. I admit we screwed up often and he suffered for it, looking back at it ho boy, i would have done things very differently and i'm sure he would have had virtually no GI issues (bad mommy).

here are some really good sites to answer many questions you may have:

http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm (look at those skulls!)

Carrie's site, and Carissa's "myths" pages there. Definitely a MUST read site, this one:
http://rawfed.com

Kevin's site is wonderfully illustrative:
http://www.rawfeddogs.net

Sabrina's site:
http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feed.htm

Sylvie's site:
http://members.home.nl/zuhorn/feeding_raw.htm

Tammy's site:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/tamgarboxers/Rawfeeding_and_Related_Links.html

SarahLynn123
May 26th, 2006, 09:53 AM
[QUOTE=technodoll]ok so you feed raw, but you're going on vacation and doggy has to be boarded... a simple solution is to purchase a freeze-dried raw diet for these occasions (such as http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?r=1939553&page=1334&-session=naturesvariety:18CB073B0cd1a2F596Pvp149EA3 2) and voila, problem solved.
QUOTE]


Thats crazy! I didnt even know that existed!! I looked for the store locater and nothing in Canada. Do you have to order it in, or is there another brand available that I can find in Canada? Im in Calgary!

Thanks!
Sarah

technodoll
May 26th, 2006, 10:04 AM
sarahlynn, here are some options i found on the web, hope you can get your hands on some of this stuff, looks tasty (for the doggies of course, LOL):

www.thehonestkitchen.com

http://www.preciouspets.org/omas-pride-raw.htm

http://www.stevesrealfood.com/

http://www.animalfood.com/rttinfo.htm#ingredients

:crazy:

SarahLynn123
May 26th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Thanks Technodoll!

OK so I want to make sure Im on the right track here

Shadow weighs 70lbs so 1.5lbs of food a day
Belle weighs 20lbs so 0.5lbs of food a day
Wolf weighs 12lbs so 0.25lbs of food a da

I should start off with chicken for a couple weeks and slowly add variety. (Shadow is very sensitive) I can add some fruits and veggies if they like that, and cottage cheese and yogurt etc. for some variety along with the chicken. Am I doing good so far?

All my dogs eat 3 times a day but that seems to be a bit much if they are on raw, twice a day would be better for convenience and such. Id still like to give them a snack at lunch. What would be a good small snack that would tide them over? Wolf love veggies, Belle loves fruit but Shadow doesn't like either!

Thanks! This is a great thread!

Sarah

BoxerRescueMTL
May 26th, 2006, 11:56 AM
Yuppers, you can start of on chicken on bone for a couple weeks and go from there, adding one new protein at a time and then tiny bits of offal. Trim off extra fat to avoid the runs! A good lunchtime snack would be cottage cheese or yogurt with some canned fish, and/or fruits/veggies or eggs for the ones who like them.
Your amounts sound good. My 68 lbs boxer eats about 1.8 lbs a day but he is very active and not an "easy keeper". :)

SarahLynn123
May 26th, 2006, 12:35 PM
Thanks Boxer rescue! This does seem to be quite easy. I think the plan is to stock up, look around Calgary to find the best prices and start loading up our spare deep freeze.

I do however have yet another question! What do you give your dogs for treats in between meals? Wouldn't the dog treats from stores digest at a different rate and be not to good for them if they are on the raw diet? Is a couple every now and then OK?

Thanks again
Sarah

BoxerRescueMTL
May 26th, 2006, 01:00 PM
Hmmmm...to be honest I give them regular doggie treats. I don't think that a couple of treats would cause problems, especially if it is not close ot feeding times. I did just buy one of those giant Dick Van Patten's sausage role things, cut it up and zip locked it. I've been using those as treats (it says dog food on the package). I try not to give Dudley anything with carbs in it since he has mast cell cancer and cancer feeds on carbs.

technodoll
May 26th, 2006, 01:01 PM
What do you give your dogs for treats in between meals? Wouldn't the dog treats from stores digest at a different rate and be not to good for them if they are on the raw diet? Is a couple every now and then OK?


being the hippie mom that I am (:p ), treats consist of milk-bone cookies, dried apricots, dehydrated liver bits... they,re really not hungry in between meals and if they are, better to see them drool and jump for joy at the sight of dinner rather than a blasé look, LOL! anyways i have weird vampire dogs, they don't often eat breakfast (their choice) and dinner is ignored until 10pm, and even then half is left behind... yet it's 90% of the time mysteriously gone when we get up at 7am!

many people find that after switching their dogs from a kibble -inhaled-in-two-minutes-meal to raw food which offers luxurious long minutes, even hours, of satisfactory chewing, ripping, nibbling etc - they,re not interested in treats that much anymore. hmmm.

SarahLynn123
May 26th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Thanks for all the info! Im sure I will have questions when we start in about a month or so.

Sorry to hear about the cancer:sad: Thats always one of my biggest fears, but I had no idea about the carbs feeding it. Thanks for sharing the info.

Take care
Sarah

BoxerRescueMTL
May 26th, 2006, 02:28 PM
Thanks Sarah :) Dudley is feeling good and we have had his tumors removed successfully, however these things tend to come back - so we try to do what we can to help prevent this.

SarahLynn123
May 26th, 2006, 03:14 PM
So Im looking around and am wondering what is trim?
http://www.hovenfarms.com/Price%20List.pdf

Its on the bottom under food for pets, and are these decent prices?

Thanks
Sarah

technodoll
May 26th, 2006, 03:30 PM
i've never bought organic meats - too expensive! - so dunno if the pricing is ok... seems a bit high for me. "trim" is leftovers from the human cuts of meat and usually involve plenty of fat, gristle, and tougher parts of meat, although you can get good slabs of meat in there. should not include bone. doggy heaven, LOL! the pricing for mixed organ meats sounds good, specially for organic beef. I'd get that since you don't need very much in the overall diet.

most raw-feeders look for max $1 per pound of food, stock up on those chicken legs when they are on sale for .69/lbs, whole turkeys at $1/lbs is nice, so are bone-in pork roasts at that price... my dogs eat whatever is on sale, LOL!

SarahLynn123
May 28th, 2006, 11:41 AM
Just one last question! When I call up butchers what exactly am I asking for???

I lied, another question, how good are fish heads? I seen bags of them for cheap at the grocery store but not sure how much good stuff they contain.

Thanks again for eneryones help!

Sarah

technodoll
May 28th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Just one last question! When I call up butchers what exactly am I asking for???

I lied, another question, how good are fish heads? I seen bags of them for cheap at the grocery store but not sure how much good stuff they contain.


do not ever say you are shopping for your dog, the butchers will give you stripped bones which are only good for recreational chewing, not part of the diet itself. the key word is "roasts" :D ask for bone-in roasts of any kind... pork butts, brisket, stewing chunks, etc.

fish heads, if small enough to be consumed, are fine and very rich in all sorts of good nutrients, if they are really big, can be chewed on recreationally. however not all dogs like raw fish, doesn't hurt to try though :thumbs up

meb999
May 28th, 2006, 07:26 PM
you guys make it all seem so simple....if it's so simple, then why the heck am I so scraed to start this diet??
People look at me like I'm a freak when I tell them I'm thinking about switching Buster to raw. My dad says it's all propaganda and will not only make my dog sick, but will give us all salmonella poisoning! :rolleyes:
I'm a germ-a-phobe. Maybe I should wait until I can have a fridge just for Buster? And do you weigh all your dogs meals, or do you just eye-ball it?

technodoll
May 28th, 2006, 08:41 PM
And do you weigh all your dogs meals, or do you just eye-ball it?


in the beginning, it's a good idea to get one of those small cheap kitchen scales (mine was $5) to weigh what you feed, and after a bit you will get a feel of what things really weigh and then eye-balling it is the way to go :)

tell your dad the propaganda is from the petfood companies... dogs don't read nor watch tv, they only know what mother nature equipped them with (teeth, digestive systems and instincts), and what the heck does he think wolves, coyotes, foxes, pumas, any wild carnivore in north america feeds on, anyways? if THEY can do it... so can you! :pawprint:

Melei'sMom
May 29th, 2006, 01:20 AM
I let Melei eat her fill. sometimes she eats quite a bit and others she doesn't eat at all. her weight is great so I let her regulate her intake herself. She is the only dog here so she doesn't protect or hoard and has no problem walking away from the food if she feels full.


as a side note...she had trout today for the first time :) we went fishing this morning and took her with us. you should have seen her trying to figure out what that thingy was that Dad pulled outta the lake :D

and she still won't touch her chicken unless I take the skin off.

Lissa
May 29th, 2006, 04:05 PM
if it's so simple, then why the heck am I so scraed to start this diet??

I know how this feels too! Basically doing anything different, that goes against the grain of mainstream vets is seen as wrong (vaccines, good vs bad kibble, flea/worm preventatives)... I truly hope that it changes soon as more pet owners educate themselves!

Our last dog went RAW after we found out she had cancer. At that point we stopped all chemicals/pesticides from entering her body. The vet thought she would die in weeks. She lived healthily for over 2 years.

When Dodger was a puppy, he couldn't digest the bones (even when they were grinded) so BARF wasn't possibe. Thankfully, now that he's older, he is able to handle raw diet and is so much healthier for it (not that he was totally unhelathy before but he had yeasty ears, lots of tartar/plaque buildup, gas and would often vomit in the mornings - all of which has completely disappeared within days of being on BARF).

I follow the Volhard diet more than anything else - where there is a lot of add-ins to supplement the raw meat/bones. I don't just drop some meaty bones in his bowl - which is why there is more preparation involved for me...It doesn't take ages but depending on what he's getting, anywhere from 5-15minutes. You get really efficient at it when you are preparing it everyday though!

I refuse to feed supermarket meats - I go with the most natural meats as possible. On my last trip to the beef butcher, I got 10lbs of bones (the size of Dodger'd head:p ), 10lbs liver, 10lbs of heart and 10lbs of kidney for $19.37. My friend also brings me chicken necks/backs from her butcher which is 50lbs for $12. I bought some organic fish the other day, about $5 for 3lbs. My other friend has a small-family farm where I get organic eggs and turkey.

Aside from the meat/bones part, Dodger also gets kelp, oats, millet, buckwheat, fruits, veggies, wheat bran, wheat germ, eggs, garlic, parsley, Kefir, ester-C, cottage cheese, yogurt, apple cider vingar, cod liver oil and safflower oil, brewer's yeats (he doesn't get every single ingredient everyday, some of them depend on the season or how he's been digesting etc...)

meb999
May 31st, 2006, 07:42 AM
I think Buster may have had a bad reaction to a raw bone...
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=248708#post248708
I'm a little freaked out, I'm very worried. Anyone else ever have this problem?

technodoll
May 31st, 2006, 08:41 AM
i answered in your other thread... it could be a number of things. the large, naked, weight-bearing bone you gave him to chew on is not considered part of a raw diet (dogs cannot and should not eat those...)... let the vet check him out and let us know ok? good luck! :fingerscr

Melei'sMom
May 31st, 2006, 08:47 AM
We wetn fishing on Sunday and brought home 3 rainbows for Melei. now on wed morning...all 3 are gone! Melei loves trout! I have never seen her eat that much in 1 meal!!:eek:

technodoll
May 31st, 2006, 09:04 AM
he heh - melei has good taste :D
ps: on fish... never feed raw wild salmon unless it has been frozen for a few days first, to kill the salmon-specific parasites that can be bad for the dogs. but this is only for salmon :)

Melei'sMom
June 4th, 2006, 09:20 AM
he heh - melei has good taste :D
ps: on fish... never feed raw wild salmon unless it has been frozen for a few days first, to kill the salmon-specific parasites that can be bad for the dogs. but this is only for salmon :)


That was the only thing I was worried about. good to know that is salmon and not trout. I don't think I could even get fresh salmon here, central Alberta is pretty landlocked lol.

Only problem we have now is finding time to go fishing again! Starting a business doesn't leave much time for recreation.

Melei is adjusting well though. until recently I was a sahm and now I work fulltime plus, but as we own the business and no food is involved, she goes with me everyday.


oops, back on topic...dh is always worried that the fish we catch may have a hook or something in it's mouth or stomach so he still guts and beheads the fish before she gets it. She is defiantely a fish lover though. it is obvious that fish is her favorite meal, wether it is trout, sardines or canned salmon.

if she eats fish 4-5 days a week with chicken and organ offered the other couple days, is that properly balanced enough?

Copper'sMom
June 4th, 2006, 09:34 PM
you guys make it all seem so simple....if it's so simple, then why the heck am I so scraed to start this diet??

Me too! I've been reading and reading and I'm still so nervous! Although the dogs had their chiken gizzards and hearts today. I guess I'm more worried about them eating the bones -especially chicken bones. After all these years of being brainwashed not to feed chicken bones, it's kind of hard to get that out of my head!

Now I just have to figure out all the math and percentages!:yuck: Converting kgs into pounds! Ugh. I don't know why I'm so worried about it all! I just want to make sure they get enough of everything they need!

technodoll, I enjoyed the recipe section on this site! lol http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

One more question: they can eat a whole chicken?? I've seen you mention whole turkey but not chicken!:o I really don't know much about meat! I like all my food processed!:eek:

technodoll
June 4th, 2006, 09:46 PM
One more question: they can eat a whole chicken?? I've seen you mention whole turkey but not chicken

well... apparently if your dog is hungry enough, he can! LOL http://www.rawfeddogs.net/RecipeDetail.php?id=2 :D my boy did that once when he was about 5 months old, crunched through a whole chicken in one sitting (it as a smallish one). i was a proud mama, LOL!

oh and i don't give the whole turkey to the dog(s), i cut it up in manageable peices and debone the legs & wings first (bone too hard for them). but the necks & entire ribcage offer a good workout :crazy: funny thing, both my dogs don't like huge peices of RMB's, it's like they get discouraged or bored or something? LOL i have to cut into smaller peices and then it's dinnertime. yes i have whacko furkids!

ps: don't forget to trim off any big dangly peices of skin from said chicken or turkey, it's quite fatty and can give the runs to a tummy not used to eating raw yet. Adding digesive enzymes to the meal at first is always a good idea, too, if your dog has a sensitive tummy overall. mind you, some dogs when taken from kibble to raw see their tummy troubles cleared up, so you never know. it truly is trial-and-error to get to know thy dog! :p

Copper'sMom
June 5th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Is this true?
Raw and kibble shouldn't be fed in the same day? Because kibble takes longer to digest than raw so if raw is fed before the kibble, the kibble will block the raw from coming out??

Melei'sMom
June 5th, 2006, 09:17 AM
Is this true?
Raw and kibble shouldn't be fed in the same day? Because kibble takes longer to digest than raw so if raw is fed before the kibble, the kibble will block the raw from coming out??


True...kibble has the fillers that take longer to digest, and the dogs are built to move raw through at the proper rate for digestion. You don't want the raw getting blocked inthere behind a load of flour and such.

minipups
June 5th, 2006, 10:09 AM
I started several years ago giving my tiny chihuahua and my minpin/pom a chicken wing each in the morning. Just a raw chicken wing. they both devoured the whold thing bones and all. Then they had a good quality kibble in the evening. I fed them this for at least a year. My minpin/pom got really fat(she is a real food moocher) I thoght it could be the fat in the chicken skin so eventually after trying several products I settled on a bag of meat patties that I can conveniently cut into the right proportions for the size of dog. These pattis contain fruits, veggies and herbs also. It cost about twenty bucks for twelve patties. that would last for 24 days roughly. I have four dogs now and still feed the same way. My chihuahua is six and a half years old and he has a beautiful shiny coat and really nice teeth. He hasn't had his teeth cleaned yet. My min pin is really obese now and that is another problem. (my other dogs range from thin to normal.

Copper'sMom
June 5th, 2006, 10:51 AM
When I leave for work, Zoe gets a kong ball and a kong filled with treats. I'm a little worried about not giving them to her when I leave as it is her routine that is associated with when I leave. She looks forward to me leaving!
So, can I still put the same treats in or should I put meat etc in them?? The treats she gets are store bought, supposedly natural - OMH biscuits, wellness bars, northern biscuits, and 2 small milkbones(for kong ball - to hold treats inside). I don't see any preservatives and additives and such on the packages either so I'm assuming they are still good for them!
And if I did put organs or meat in a kong and she doesn't eat it - will it have to be thrown out? I leave at 2pm for work and my b/f is home from work by 6 or 7pm. Sometimes she won't eat certain things unless we are here, so when he gets home, she would then want to eat it.
OR What if I put them in frozen??

Copper'sMom
June 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM
HOLY CRAP!! I just gave Copper and Zoe a Chicken Leg Quarter, and Copper is CRAZY for it!!! He ate the first one, so I gave him a 2nd and it was devoured in 2 minutes!! The first one he was eating some pretty big chunks, but so far so good. He's whining right now as Zoe is working on hers still! Copper was soooo excited when I gave him the 2nd one! I think he's gonna love this diet - I just hope his tummy does too!

Oh and he ate raw LIVER!!! Zoe wouldn't, so I just gave him a small piece and baked the rest! Thanks phoenix for the recipies! I used the second one!:thumbs up

Here's what I bought today. Please tell me how I am doing as I never buy this stuff!
Top row is beef brisket(boneless) and beef liver,second row is beef tripe and 2 really small mature chickens(label says good for stewing??)
2nd picture is 2 cans of sardines and 6 bags of Chicken Leg Quarters(2-3 legs per bag)! All of this was $31.00 tax included!:thumbs up The brisket alone was $6.00 after 2.50 coupons were used.

SarahLynn123
June 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM
How often is it OK for them to have canned tuna?

We dont have alot of time in the morning to let them take their time crunching thrugh bones and such, so, is canned tuna OK for breakfast everyday?

Thanks
Sarah

phoenix
June 5th, 2006, 02:28 PM
check this out, a good site IMO

http://avalongreatdanes0.tripod.com/id2.html

nice groceries, glad the liver worked out!!

the tripe in grocery stores isn't the kind that is good for dogs, that is green tripe, I don't know where you buy it except online...

technodoll
June 5th, 2006, 10:02 PM
copper's mom, nice loot :D the only thing i would change is the bleached tripe, no nutrition in there for the doggies... if you need help finding it online or locally, just let me know and i hope to be able to help you. but beware that stuff stinks, LOL! also for the first couple of weeks i would limit the intake to one protein source only - in your case, chicken - and go easy on the liver, it can cause loose stools in large amounts or if given too soon into a raw diet (it's very rich). once your dogs have those small, hard, beautiful poops (LOL yes there is such a thing :D ) then you can add another protein source of your choice, say turkey as you can feed bone-in peices, then eventually richer meats like beef, pork, lamb, etc.
also i think paying more than $1 per pound of food is not really a good deal... have you checked out any food sources other than the grocery store? if you need pointers in that direction i would be glad to help on that too, unless you don't mind paying more for the meats, LOL!
sooo glad your doggies are enjoying it, please keep us posted! :thumbs up

dtbmnec
June 5th, 2006, 10:34 PM
can cats eat raw too?

Silly question since they only eat in the wild and all....:s

but erm yeah....how much would it cost (roughly) to switch two little boys onto raw food? (like on a month to month basis)

Right now they're getting the little Friskies cans that say its good for two meals (provided of course Leo doesn't eat Pawz's portion)

Megan

Copper'sMom
June 6th, 2006, 12:06 AM
Better prices huh? I thought I did good on the chicken leg quarters didn't I? 0.938kgs converted into pounds is 2lbs, right? I paid $2.01 I know the beef brisket was pricey, but I figured the dogs would love it! I gave them a little - it helped Zoe move onto the chicken as she's not too sure about this stuff!

A few more questions!:o
1)It is ok to give them the chicken leg quarters WITH the bones, right?? As long as they aren't cooked? Just want to be sure!! They did have them Monday, and all seemed well. I'm just waiting for their yard deposits to inspect!!

2)Do I give them other things with their chicken right now? Like organs, fish, eggs, cottage cheese etc?? Or do they justget chicken(with bone?)?

3)Is it too early to feed the whole chicken carcass?

4)Should I be worried that Copper is swallowing large chunks? He's not chewing the food to his full potential. He normally chews his food really good, but yesterday he was inhaling the chicken!

5)One meal a day or twice a day?

6)Copper weighs 80lbs - he needs to lose a few though. 1.5 lbs of food a day is good for him? He's not very active.
Zoe weighs 52lbs. 1 - 1.5lbs for her? She is very active most days!
Thanks for the info on that tripe!! I'll just throw it in the garbage - it was only $3.00 but if it's not nutritional, they aren't eating it!
Thanks again phoenix for the new link! It will help me out alot! My memory is poor, so those guidelines will help me out alot!

And just a BIG THANK YOU to technodoll, phoenix and others who have been so helpful in providing all this info and answering our gazillion questions!!! Thank you sooooo much!:grouphug:

meb999
June 6th, 2006, 09:02 AM
Here's an excerp from the link that Phoenix posted :

THESE ARE THE SUPPLEMENTS WE USE IN OUR PROGRAM

1. Fastrack probiotic ( high count multiple good bacteria and enzymes ) Necessary to keep good bacteria levels and ensure enzyme activity. This also is Natures "way" of protecting the GI tract from bad bacteria growth.

2. Organic bone meal as follows: 3 TBSP per 4 cups food mix, 2 TBSP per 2 cups of food mix, 1/2 TBSP per 1 cup of food mix, 1 TSP per 1/2 cup of food mix.

3. Ester-C (non acidic) vitamin C: We give 1500 mg to our adult danes and 500 to 1000mg to our pups.

4. Kelp: 1 TSP per 25# weight, up to 3 TSP maxumum daily

5. Cod Liver Oil: 2 to 3 capsules per day

6: Vitamin E 400 I.U. 2 per day

7. Brewers Yeast: 4 per day

8. Flax Seed oil and Ground Flax Seed: 1000 mg and 2 TBSP per day

9. Juice Plus: For the dogs that won't eat their veggies and fruits or your time is limited, or you are traveling with your dog. I just bring the capsules and add to the meat and the Fastrack. This provides my Great Danes with the nutrition of the raw veggies and fruits in a great easy form to carry.

ok, I get the probiotics. When they talk about bone meal, do they mean like real bone meal, the stuff you put in your flower beds?
Why Brewers yeast?
Why vitamin C ?
Thanx, and sorry if they're stupid questions :o

phoenix
June 6th, 2006, 09:26 AM
hey marie eve,

when we weren't sure why Maia was coughing, it was recommended to give Sam vitamin C to boost his immune system so that he didn't catch what she had... he didn't catch it... so I guess it's for the same reasons that we take vitC in cold season.

Don't know about the yeast.

meb999
June 6th, 2006, 06:00 PM
another stupid question. If raw is a dog's natural diet, then why do we have to add probiotics to help them digest it? Is it just in the begining that you add these? I've read alot Raw feeders don't add any supplements to their diet... So are these supplements mandatory, or just recomended ??

MAkes sense about the vitamin C....

I imagine that the Cod liver oil and vitamin E are for the dog's coat, right? These wouldn't be necessary if you feed a rich (or a little fatty) meat, would they?

What's the flaxseed for? I always put ground flaxseed on my salads...but that's to boost my metabolism! I doubt that's why they recomend it for dogs!!

ok...I know I'm getting annoying with all my questions. It's just that the sites I've been on that recomend these suplements don't say what they're for!! :o

phoenix
June 6th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Hi marie eve, I'll answer what i know or what i think i know ;)

If raw is a dog's natural diet, then why do we have to add probiotics to help them digest it? Is it just in the begining that you add these? I've read alot Raw feeders don't add any supplements to their diet... So are these supplements mandatory, or just recomended ??

the site i posted was just a recommended list that they follow. some don't add things, some add some of these (i remember technodoll posting somewhere, maybe this thread, the things she adds). I think the biggest issue is that you may not hit all of the recommended vits/mins etc in one week, so this ensures they're all there... Oh, and the reason for probiotics I think is that we kill off a lot of our intestinal flora (the little guests inside our guts) when we ingest anything with antibiotic in it... so sometimes dogs get antibiotics for illnesses but also this may be in the food, right (chickens are routinely fed antibiotics, all the time...)-

I imagine that the Cod liver oil and vitamin E are for the dog's coat, right? These wouldn't be necessary if you feed a rich (or a little fatty) meat, would they?
What's the flaxseed for? I always put ground flaxseed on my salads...but that's to boost my metabolism! I doubt that's why they recomend it for dogs!!

Ok, fish oils and flaxseed oils both have omega 3 fatty acids. these do help the coat and skin. if you fed cold water fish then i guess you wouldn't need this... fatty meat is a different type of fat than this... one you don't want (think of the saturated vs unsaturated that you see on tv in margarine commercials)...

does anyone know of a site with supplements and what they're for that's an easy resource?? I can't remember what vit e is for, people put it topically on their skin... but inside us i can't remember.

phoenix
June 6th, 2006, 07:00 PM
Here's the vitamin list, from http://www.drweil.com/u/Article/P176/


Vitamin A: For healthy tissues, inside and out. The best form is from fish oils, like cod-liver, and is beneficial to dogs and cats.

B Vitamins: Promote growth and aid in healing. B Vitamins are also necessary for fat and protein assimilation, as well as metabolic processes. They are found naturally in eggs, yogurt and kefir (an enzyme-rich yogurt-like product that stimulates digestion and peristalsis).

Vitamin C: An essential antioxidant that helps eliminate free radicals. Carnivores can produce their own vitamin C, but their need for it increases in stressful situations. The best form for dogs is calcium ascorbate, which is water-soluble and causes the fewest side effects (such as nausea or diarrhea).

Vitamin E: An essential antioxidant. Promotes healthy circulation in the heart and arteries. It also helps protect the lungs from the effects of pollution. Senior cats especially can benefit from increased vitamin E intake to maintain their immune system responses.

Probiotics: Just as we need active, “friendly” intestinal flora to help us digest our food, so do dogs. Enhance your pet’s diet with active cultures, and treat them to kefir or plain yogurt on occasion. You can give them to your pet 4-7 times a week, to help restore and maintain a healthy digestive tract.

meb999
June 6th, 2006, 08:02 PM
thanx Phoenix! Very informative!

technodoll
June 6th, 2006, 09:17 PM
sorry for being MIA, just now catching up on all the posts (you guys have been busy, LOL). Looks like the questions have been answered, or did i miss anything?...

cats can absolutely be put on a raw diet, in fact they thrive on the stuff... cats are obligate carnivores (if they don't eat meat, they will die, unlike dogs who can adapt to a meatless diet). the only thing is the fussiness of cats... some take to the raw diet immediately, others need a little to a lot of coaxing. the ratio is still the same than for dogs (about 15% edible bone more or less, 10% organs, and the rest meats).

Copper'sMom
June 6th, 2006, 11:31 PM
sorry for being MIA, just now catching up on all the posts (you guys have been busy, LOL). Looks like the questions have been answered, or did i miss anything?...

Ummmm, can you answer these for me please?:o

A few more questions!:o
1)It is ok to give them the chicken leg quarters WITH the bones, right?? As long as they aren't cooked? Just want to be sure!! They did have them Monday, and all seemed well. I'm just waiting for their yard deposits to inspect!!

2)Do I give them other things with their chicken right now? Like organs, fish, eggs, cottage cheese etc?? Or do they justget chicken(with bone?)?

3)Is it too early to feed the whole chicken carcass?

4)Should I be worried that Copper is swallowing large chunks? He's not chewing the food to his full potential. He normally chews his food really good, but yesterday and today he was inhaling the chicken!

5)One meal a day or twice a day?

6)Copper weighs 80lbs - he needs to lose a few though. 1.5 lbs of food a day is good for him? He's not very active.
Zoe weighs 52lbs. 1 - 1.5lbs for her? She is very active most days!


Meb999, I read on the yahoo raw feeding group about the fish oils. They say not to give the cod liver oil, but instead look on the label for fish oil or omega 3 fatty acids. I just can't remember why they said no cod liver oil:o . But then again, everywhere you read some say do this and others say don't do this! Some of it is confusing!:confused:

BTW: How's Buster doing??????

technodoll
June 7th, 2006, 09:51 AM
)It is ok to give them the chicken leg quarters WITH the bones, right?? As long as they aren't cooked? Just want to be sure!!
Yes, absolutely. Farmed chickens are slaughtered very young and have thin, soft (well for the dog's teeth & jaws) and very digestible bones, from head to foot.

2)Do I give them other things with their chicken right now? Like organs, fish, eggs, cottage cheese etc?? Or do they justget chicken(with bone?)?
It really depends on how your dogs are doing on the first few items you offered them. Some dogs have strong systems that never skip a beat when being transitioned to raw, their poops are beautiful from day 1. for others, it takes a bit of time to adjust, hence the precaution to initially limiting the variety of fresh foods given to minimize tummy upset. I'd go easy on the dairy, it can often cause gas and runny poops, fish is great and organs, go slowly here... your best bet is to monitor your dog's general reaction to raw, and go from there.

3)Is it too early to feed the whole chicken carcass?
nope, just make sure they don't gorge because overfeeding can cause runny stools (body ingests too much food and tries to get rid of the excess before all the water has been filtered out).

4)Should I be worried that Copper is swallowing large chunks? He's not chewing the food to his full potential. He normally chews his food really good, but yesterday and today he was inhaling the chicken!
Not a very good idea to gulp food, larger peices of bone are harder to digest than crunched-up bits. Many raw-feeders give frozen or half-frozen RMBs to their gulpers, to slow them down... you may want to try that. Plus the jaw, head & shoulder workout is much better!

5)One meal a day or twice a day?
entirely up to you and what your dogs prefer! easier on the tummy to feed twice per day but if your dogs are OK on eating once per day, go for it!

6)Copper weighs 80lbs - he needs to lose a few though. 1.5 lbs of food a day is good for him? He's not very active. Zoe weighs 52lbs. 1 - 1.5lbs for her? She is very active most days!
Again, feed about 2% of body weight in food per day (weigh stuff at first), and after a couple of weeks you will see where you need adjustment. You can feed leaner meats to Copper, for example, and fattier meats to Zoe, so they get plenty of food but still maintain proper weights. Cutting out carbs in their diet is a great way to turn that fat into solid muscle... give it a couple of months, you will be amazed!
:thumbs up

meb999
June 7th, 2006, 01:29 PM
BTW: How's Buster doing??????

Much better now. The vet said it was a mix of food poisoning and heat exhaustion. He had pretty severe diarhea for almost a week (but he was drinking lots of water, so I wasn't too worried). After one dose of Pepto-bysmol (recomended by the vet, of course), everything cleared up! Thanks for asking! He's back to his old active self! The episode has made me even more weary to change his diet though....so I keep researching it for the time being....

Copper'sMom
June 7th, 2006, 01:30 PM
Anyone else considering switching? I found this website and I think it's pretty good!:thumbs up http://www.rawdogranch.com/index.html

And wow, I can't believe the difference in their poop!:thumbs up They're so small now! My mom can't tell the difference between Copper's poo and her American Eskimo's poo! It's so much harder to find it in the yard now!
Both dogs are doing really well so far! I thought Copper's tummy would be sensitive(it usually is), but he proved me wrong! And Zoe's getting the hang of eating raw food too! We are on our 3rd day and things look great!!!!!:thumbs up

technodoll
June 7th, 2006, 01:40 PM
i am so thrilled for you :highfive: As i said, if you do it right, from the beginning, there should be minimal tummy upset... slow and simple and easy does it... too many people rush into it and then freak out when there is diarhhea to deal with. looks like you got the hang of it already, aren't those mini-poops (compared to kibble-poop) a sight for sore eyes? :D yep... lots goes in, lots gets digested, little is wasted. now just you wait for the shiny, supersoft and odorless fur to grow in... less shedding... for those ears to stop smelling... etc. you'll never want to go back :)

starsen
June 7th, 2006, 11:18 PM
How I feed raw:
http://members.cox.net/starsen/feeding%20guidelinespart3rawfoods.html

mafiaprincess
June 8th, 2006, 01:26 AM
Potentialy stupid Q..
How many of you raw feeders have to prepare things like organs for your crew, like cooking them some, or fully to get them to eat them?How much do you do before they like them?

technodoll
June 8th, 2006, 08:29 AM
How many of you raw feeders have to prepare things like organs for your crew, like cooking them some, or fully to get them to eat them?How much do you do before they like them?

there is NO stupid question, ever! ;)

for the organs, i gave up after about a month trying to get them to eat them in raw form. and i can't blame them, it's a texture that some dogs just don't want to get used to (bet that if they were in the wild though, and had not much else to eat... they'd get used to it!). so about once every 10 days, i drop a couple packages of liver (i rotate the animal source) or kidneys on a foil-lined cookie sheet and bake for about 20 mins, that's it. After everything has cooled down, i drizzle the liquid on soft stuff (ground meat, fish, eggs, etc) and it gets inhaled... the rest goes in a baggie & in the fridged, doled out in small portions every other day for about a week. the dogs think it's the best treat ever, they have no idea it's really nutritious, LOL!
:crazy:

meb999
June 9th, 2006, 09:36 AM
two more questions :

- can I add a raw egg to Buster's kibble, or is that like feeding raw meat at the same as kibble ?

- One of the things that worries me the most, is that I may have time to feed raw now, but in a couple of years, once we start having kids and stuff, I may not have time. Can you feed raw for awhile then go back to kibble, then back to raw...?
Maybe I could feed raw on weekends, and kibble during the week? :o

technodoll
June 9th, 2006, 09:45 AM
- can I add a raw egg to Buster's kibble, or is that like feeding raw meat at the same as kibble ?

- One of the things that worries me the most, is that I may have time to feed raw now, but in a couple of years, once we start having kids and stuff, I may not have time. Can you feed raw for awhile then go back to kibble, then back to raw...?
Maybe I could feed raw on weekends, and kibble during the week?

about the raw egg in the kibble, i do that with my boy,s meal once in a while and have seen no problems (scramble raw Omega-3 egg with some yogurt... he loves that). but some dogs don't tolerate raw + kibble mixed, so i would suggest you try it out during the weekend when you are there to monitor his tummy. chances are he'll be fine, but you never know. :)

and some raw is better than none at all, as long as buster tolerates the weekly switch from kibble to raw, if that is what suits your lifestyle then go for it. some raw feeders leave grain-free kibble out for their dogs to snack on, or use it when they are travelling or board their dogs, etc... life doesn't have to be so black and white. :angel:

BoxerRescueMTL
June 9th, 2006, 09:53 AM
can I add a raw egg to Buster's kibble, or is that like feeding raw meat at the same as kibble ?
All our fosters are on kibble and they always get raw eggs. Helps the skinny ones put on weight and get their coats nice and shiny.

Esaunders
June 11th, 2006, 09:00 PM
After listening to all the raw talk I have my pup on a 50/50 plan now. Solid Gold puppy kibble in the morning and a raw meal in the evening. He seems to be best on pork right now. He got a pork hock and some meaty backbones this evening and polished them off in no time.

You're right about the smaller poops with raw too. He only goes about twice per day now and occasionally snubs his kibble. (waits it out for the raw in the evening)

Not so fond of raw liver though, that one had to be baked.

He seems pretty happy with the development, now I just need to find a cheaper source than Dominion/Whole Foods Market

Any good recommendations near the southern Mississauga Oakville border?

Copper'sMom
June 11th, 2006, 09:16 PM
Any good recommendations near the southern Mississauga Oakville border?

Check prices at the butcher shops! They should all be around the same price, or at least they are in my area(1.5 hrs east of you). Their prices change weekly - if you buy in bulk. It's probably much cheaper to buy in bulk - this is my next step - price shopping. I have all my requirements written down on how much I need per week and per month so now I can check with the butchers on deals!

OH always check your A&P flyers - they occasionally have meat on buy one, get one free!!! Ususally chicken, roast beef THIS WEEK it is Rib steak! Although i'm not sure what that is exactly!:o

I bought 10lbs of frozen pork butt chops for $14.00 at the butcher the other day - not a bad deal.

Denwishy
June 23rd, 2006, 12:44 AM
This threadis really informative!!! I have a 5lbs chihuahua, Gizmo. He is
almost 4 years old. He has always had dry skin, and recently he has been having allegies (which i still cannot figure out what he is allegic to:( ) Is feeding raw really that much better than a kibble? He is on wellness fish and potato right now. He seems to be ok but not great. He was on Eukanuba before and when he started getting allegies, i changed to Wellness.

I always thought that you are not supposed to feed then bones, especially chicken/ turkey bones which when broken, are very sharp and can tear their their intestines and tummies? It is safe? Is there a difference between raw and cooked bones?

Wendy :party:

phoenix
June 23rd, 2006, 07:03 AM
Is feeding raw really that much better than a kibble? He is on wellness fish and potato right now. He seems to be ok but not great. He was on Eukanuba before and when he started getting allegies, i changed to Wellness.

I always thought that you are not supposed to feed then bones, especially chicken/ turkey bones which when broken, are very sharp and can tear their their intestines and tummies? It is safe? Is there a difference between raw and cooked bones?

Wendy :party:

hi Wendy,
Feeding raw vs. feeding kibble is a contentious issue- some feel one is better than the other but the only proof is in the pudding. You have to try it and see if it is better for your dog. I know that many allergic dogs do much better on high end kibble, and even better sometimes when switched to raw.

You can feed soft uncooked bones to dogs but weight bearing bones (leg bones of beef, bison for example) can be more dangerous. For larger dogs, they have no problems eating a chicken leg. For a chi, I'd be looking at starting smaller (backbone maybe?) You should never feed cooked bones as they are drier and can splinter.

Denwishy
June 23rd, 2006, 10:22 AM
So will he actually be eating the bone? Or just the meat part? And they can digest that?

the backbone is not sharp? Then howcome for as long as i can remember, people always say chicken bones are very dangerous for dogs........:confused: :eek:

What about chicken wings? can i feed him that?

wendy:party:

Nevada77
September 10th, 2006, 12:55 PM
Okay so I have read many of the posts and they all seem positive and great sellers for the raw meat diet. I have a few questions though.

1. Is this diet really that much cheaper than dry kibble?

2. What are the significant benefits of this diet compared to feeding kibble and table scrapes?

3. For those who own dogs that are pack dogs or have aggressive tendancies ie. Malamutes, Akitas, Huskies do you believe that this could increase the WILDNESS of your dog?

I hope that none of these questions have been asked and I missed them, if so just lead me to the thread.

Nevada

meb999
September 11th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Nevada : technodoll is the expert when it comes to raw. Bonus : she owns 2 akitas...

Then howcome for as long as i can remember, people always say chicken bones are very dangerous for dogs
COOKED bones (especially chicken bones becasue they're small) are very brittle and break into sharp little pieces that can rip your dog's stomach lining or intestines or block the passage. Raw bones aren't brittle.

technodoll
September 11th, 2006, 09:12 PM
1. Is this diet really that much cheaper than dry kibble?

2. What are the significant benefits of this diet compared to feeding kibble and table scrapes?

3. For those who own dogs that are pack dogs or have aggressive tendancies ie. Malamutes, Akitas, Huskies do you believe that this could increase the WILDNESS of your dog?

1 - it is as cheap as you want to make it... vs price of holistic kibble of course. if you do your homework to find good sources of cheap meats, bones, organs, etc and buy in bulk to save money, participate in your local coop, etc, the answer is yes. if you just walk into the grocery store every few days and grab whatever is in the counter and don't watch for sales, it will be very expensive, LOL!

2 - a list significant benefits can be read here: http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

3 - no, no and NO! LOL if your dog views his dinner as a "high value item" that needs to be guarded from other dogs, then feed the dogs in their crates, or in different rooms, etc. other than that, food is food and should be treated as such by any dog, up to the alpha to make the rules :)

feel free to PM me if you have specific questions! and good luck! :thumbs up

Pubbie
October 27th, 2006, 02:01 AM
Hi All
I have a puppy of 2 months, a Pug mix ShihTzu. I was wondering if raw food is suitable for him? What about bones? His vet seems to say bones are dangerous to him. Currently he is own kibbie diet.
We stay in an apartment. Have anyone who stayed in apartments tried raw diet for their puppies before? I would really love to learn some experiences from other members who own toy dog breeds and have switch to raw feed successfully for their pups or doggies!

Thanks a lot

Regards
Vivian
Proud owner of Pubbie!

Scott_B
October 27th, 2006, 04:58 AM
Raw is suitable for any breed of dog! Especially small dogs who can have problems with their teeth from lack of chewing.

I suggest you find the book, Work Wonders. Its an excellent book.

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DN230

meb999
October 27th, 2006, 10:51 AM
Hi All
His vet seems to say bones are dangerous to him. Currently he is own kibbie diet.

Cooked bones are VERY harmfull for a dog and should never be fed. They are brittle and break into sharp little pieces that can get lodged in your dogs stomach lining, or intestines. They can also cut-up your pooches insides. Never a good idea, this is probably what your vet is warning you about.

Raw bones, on the other hand, aren't brittled at all. They are safe and healthy, whether as an occasional treat or as part of a RAW diet.

technodoll
October 27th, 2006, 11:38 AM
yep! all true :highfive:

i see many raw-food gurus on board now, LOL! :thumbs up

Pubbie
October 31st, 2006, 04:38 AM
Dear All
Thanks for all the replies.
We gave our puppy of carrot cut into small cubes (about 2mmx2mm) which he eagerly munched up and half a leaf of salad leave also cut into small bits, but he threw up the next day! :sick:
Should I continue with meat?
Thanks in advance

Regards
Vivian
Proud owner of Pubbie!

mafiaprincess
October 31st, 2006, 09:46 AM
Dogs are carnivores.. Were you giving your dog any meat, or just the veggies?

technodoll
October 31st, 2006, 11:53 AM
dogs cannot break down the cellulose walls of vegetables, so they exit the body in the same way they came in (intact, undigested pieces). vomited pieces of veggies just show how hard it was for the stomach to digest and the irritating substance got rejected. if you want to feed raw veggies to your dog in a digestible form, they have to be pulped/ juiced and blended with raw meat.

dogs are designed by nature to eat and digest meat, not vegetables, so if you do want to feed veggies, you should limit that to a very small portion of the overall diet. the bulk should be raw meat, raw bones, and some raw organ meats. if you have specific questions you'd like to ask (how? why? when? how much? etc) we are here to help you! :)

LynLyn
November 26th, 2006, 02:21 PM
before i read this thread, i was cutting up all of bowser's meat cause i thought it might be better for him, hehe now i know to just give him a full piece of steak (even if it makes daddy jealous)

one thing though, he wont eat raw chicken *sigh* and it was soo cheap, he just takes it from me and hides it in his crate.

I have some concerns though...

can i give my dog potatoe? some threads say yes it's fine and i was but then a friend of mine says that potatoe is terrible for dogs cause it's a complex carb, and i'm only blocking up his system by giving it to him.

garlic, lots of conflicting info here, I've been giving it to bowser for over a year for flea prevention, but now i'm finding info everywhere that it's poisonous for dogs and that I might as well be giving him chocolate if I'm gonna give him garlic, he loves it and he seems fine....do i continue giving it to him?

gas bombs....bowser is one of those dogs going through detox, his stinkbombs are BAAAADDD!!! they are silent but deadly (of course), and they can clear a room. (and to top things off his favorite place to let loose is on my lap so i can get blamed) how long is this going to last?

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 03:40 PM
one thing though, he wont eat raw chicken *sigh* and it was soo cheap, he just takes it from me and hides it in his crate.

can i give my dog potatoe? some threads say yes it's fine and i was but then a friend of mine says that potatoe is terrible for dogs cause it's a complex carb, and i'm only blocking up his system by giving it to him.


maybe bowser just likes his chicken "ripe"... mafiaprincess's dog cider won't eat any riblets unless they have been sitting in the fridge for a few days :p and yes a little bit of potato here and there is perfectly fine (lots of dog food on the market is fish and potato, for example). sweet potatoes contain more vitamins, try baking some and freezing with some sodium-free broth in ice-cube trays, when you want to offer some just pop out a cube, thaw, and there you go :)

garlic, lots of conflicting info here, I've been giving it to bowser for over a year for flea prevention, but now i'm finding info everywhere that it's poisonous for dogs and that I might as well be giving him chocolate if I'm gonna give him garlic, he loves it and he seems fine....do i continue giving it to him?


fresh garlic is also fine, in small doses (think flavoring agent rather than a supplement).

gas bombs....bowser is one of those dogs going through detox, his stinkbombs are BAAAADDD!!! they are silent but deadly (of course), and they can clear a room. (and to top things off his favorite place to let loose is on my lap so i can get blamed) how long is this going to last?


i think bowser might need some broad-spectrum digestive enzymes and probiotics to help him with the transition. also, giving too much variety too soon is often a cause of "detox", stick to ONE protein source for a few days (with edible bone) and when you see hard stools and good digestion, then you can slowly start to add organ meats and other protein sources. Too much fat (as in chicken skin, for ex) can also cause gas, so do veggies and grains.

how many days has he been on raw, and what have you given him to date? maybe we can help you "fix" the transition :highfive:

LynLyn
November 26th, 2006, 04:46 PM
he has only been on raw for 4 days so he's super new to all of this.

First day: That was the day of chicken (from reading on forum) I gave him a chicken thigh with the back on it and he carried it to his crate like he was going to eat it, and while i was supervising, he shoved the piece of chicken under his blankey and went off to play, after ten minutes of play he pushed his food bowl towards me and ignored the chicken thigh, so first day of raw diet he actually ended up eating kibble

Second day: He got pork, this is the one where i was mistakenly cutting it up into small pieces. Regardless he loved loved loved it and couldn't scarf it down fast enough.

Third day: This is where I got excited cause he took so well to the pork and decided to add variety. I bought chicken hearts and livers. I fed him 3 chicken hearts and one chicken liver with some lettuce (the lettuce cause he LOVES eating my salads). again he inhaled it (which is weird cause it was chicken) and even came back begging for more

Fourth day: which is today. I have some beef (ribs but the small ones like used in Korean cooking) defrosting in the fridge right now, he'll likely get it in an hour or two from now, he's already shown BIG interest in it (i let him sniff it earlier) so I don't think he'll have any problems eating it.

So......hehe i spent the whole day today reading the BARF forum and i think yes there is definitely too much variety to start (I was a bit too gung ho about this huh?) so...should i try the chicken again (but a bit riper?) or should i just do the pork for a week or so seeing how he likes it sooo much already? and i want to get probiotics too (maybe in a yogurt? he loves yogurt), but as for variety goes is it too early to add to his diet? or should i just get the capsules and start now? Bowser is about 10lbs so how much should he get?

Whew! that's alot of questions, sowwie for bombing you guys with them, I appreciate the help that I'm getting sooooo much! I love how much information is out there, and am so pleased to have people break it down to my specific issues for me. A huge thank you in advance!

LynLyn
November 26th, 2006, 05:20 PM
well the beef was a definite no go at all. :sad: he would only sniff and lick it, finally ate one little piece that i ripped up for him. I cut it up into tiny little pieces cause i figured maybe he doesn't know how to rip it apart yet, but again he only ate one piece(handfed) and ignored the rest.

I'll either have to give him kibble tonight or fast him and go buy some pork tomorrow, seeing that i already know he loves that. *sigh*

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 05:22 PM
so...should i try the chicken again (but a bit riper?) or should i just do the pork for a week or so seeing how he likes it sooo much already? and i want to get probiotics too (maybe in a yogurt? he loves yogurt), but as for variety goes is it too early to add to his diet? or should i just get the capsules and start now? Bowser is about 10lbs so how much should he get?


i suggest keeping bowser on the pork for a week, since he likes it so much! vary the parts of pork (butt, riblet, flank, some pork organs, etc) and make sure he's crunching through some bone, too (if not, you can give him some wet food mixed with some crushed eggshells for the calcium). i think he might like other red meats very much too! at this point, digestive enzymes and probiotics are always a good idea if the stools are loose or if there are gassy farts ;)

when it's time to make him eat chicken, a few tips:

-get rid of all kibble you have in the house. he knows its there and he knows he will get a meal if he snubs what he doesn't want.
-try other parts of the chicken (neck, wing, breast, tail, etc) - he just might not like drumsticks for some reason :cool:
-try scoring the meat (slicing into the meat to make it less smooth) or lightly searing it to bring out the juices - this does not cook the bones - , smearing it with wet food or light-sodium soy sauce or other things he likes. this sometimes gets them going
-try "ripening" the meat a little, maybe he likes stinky chicken :dog:

also try turkey, goat, lamb, any wild game you can, any fish you can, eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, etc... and i suggest you let him eat as much as he wants and only cut back if you see he's gaining too much weight. you'll see muscles soon though :thumbs up

LynLyn
November 26th, 2006, 05:33 PM
technodoll thank you so much for giving advice!!
I am going back to the supermarket tomorrow for some more pork.

as for the beef, i seared it lightly and it seems to be working, he's eating as I type, and the beef is still 85% raw. I hope he finishes everything:fingerscr

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 05:37 PM
as for the beef, i seared it lightly and it seems to be working, he's eating as I type,

:highfive: woohoo! :highfive: sometimes they just need a little encouragement!

LynLyn
November 26th, 2006, 05:40 PM
:highfive: woohoo! :highfive: sometimes they just need a little encouragement!

dang!! he only ate like 8 pieces (and they're really small cause i cut them up)

argh! i wish i had some pork....now he has to be hungry until tomorrow.

technodoll
November 26th, 2006, 06:10 PM
lynlyn, try offering him a hard-boiled egg (cooled and in the shell, just chip off a bit to show him it's food inside) :D or a can of fish, if you have any? (no more kibble... go hide it in the garage, LOL)

next time when searing meat, you can sprinkle some garlic powder to make it tasty or parmesan cheese, many dogs can't resist that! :thumbs up

Scott_B
November 27th, 2006, 04:58 AM
One thing I though should be pointed out. If he doesnt want to eat somthing at one meal, dont right away offer somthing else that you know he will eat. Thats how you get picky dogs.

Do the 10min rule. If they dont eat it after 10min, take it up and toss it in the fridge. Offer it again at the next meal. You can do this a few times, as it wont hurt them to miss a meal or two. Some dogs will hold out if they know that doing so will result in you giving them somthing yummy instead! :thumbs up

technodoll
November 27th, 2006, 09:41 AM
Scott that is excellent advice. sometimes it's ALL it takes (that, and remove all kibble from the house). however small (toy) dogs should not be fasted for more than a day... they burn calories faster than big dogs and need a more steady supply of energy (unless the dog is fat, of course). :dog:

LynLyn
November 27th, 2006, 10:12 AM
on my way out the door, to go to the supermarket to pick up some pork, i offered it to him again this morning but he wouldn't eat it, I'm not sure if it's because he didn't want it or because he got in trouble for peeing on the drapes this morning.

I will offer it one more time at dinner time, if not then it's on to the pork and for a week.

I appreciate the advice so much everyone, this is harder than I thought, who would've thought, a dog that doesn't want raw meat.:shrug:

technodoll
November 27th, 2006, 10:17 AM
who would've thought, a dog that doesn't want raw meat

oh they exist all right... i have two of them! while they do enjoy some kinds of raw meaty bones, they have gotten progressively pickier over time :frustrated: both looove pork though, it's their favorite. and seared beef heart chunks almost always get an A+ too! oh and my friend's dog only likes certain cuts of steak... all from the same cow but apparently different textures and tastes, how ridiculous is that? :dog:

LynLyn
November 27th, 2006, 02:39 PM
ok i went and bought pork necks, now this post is mostly for encouragement.

i went to the asian market to pick up the pork necks and the guys decided to ask me what it was for, and i told them it was for my dog.

The butcher and everyone else at the store proceeded to tell me what an idiot I am, and that some humans can't afford meat and here I am buying it for my dog. He said that he used to give his dog leftover scraps from his job and his dog got sick from it and now has to go to the vet every 3 months, which scares the living crap out of me.

especially now that bowser has not eaten for 2 days and i'm too scared to give him the pork necks, yet at the same time not willing to give him kibble.

Please please please tell me that I'm doing the right thing here.

I never thought there would be so much opposition from everyone (mom, dad friends, strange butchers, people on the street admiring my dog)

argh! I'm totally freaking out.

are pork necks ok?

Scott_B
November 27th, 2006, 02:51 PM
Please please please tell me that I'm doing the right thing here.


You are totally doing the right thing!

Would it make you feel better to know that dogs have died because they've choked on kibble? Yup thats right.

Don't worry what others say. There are sooooo many people out there feeding this diet. People are afraid because they fear the unknown.

your doing things right :thumbs up

technodoll
November 27th, 2006, 02:57 PM
sigh. don't listen to the ignorant people, lynlyn :) yes pork necks are fine to feed but they are very boney so you will need to add pork meat of some kind to balance the day's food intake.

if you cannot find a friendly butcher who understands, just don't mention anything as it's none of their business HOW you raise you boy. there will ALWAYS be folks who will have a "horror story" to discourage you (sure, a dog eating week-old scraps off a dirty floor might get sick - but you're not feeding that way, are you?) LOL besides how many dogs get sick on kibble every day. meh, just shrug it off and trust your own intelligence to make the right decisions. a bunch of us here did that and our furkids are doing superbly :thumbs up

i mostly shop at 4 grocery stores (Intermarché, Metro, IGA and Maxi) to stock up on meat sales as I don't have to speak to anyone, i just buy the stuff and go on my merry way. I did find a very friendly butcher who, after hearing about WHY i buy cases of beef heart and organ meats on a regular basis, is now working with a local vet to develop raw meat mixes for sale to the public! so the demand is there, it's growing, and many vets are getting on board too.

stay focused, stay calm, and give that boy his dinner with confidence. find him some nice lean pork butt to supplement the necks, try giving him some fish, some eggs, if you can find a PA Supermarché in your area, lamb is on sale at $1.49/lbs this week so maybe you could try a bit. if you want to try Green Tripe I can point you to some sources (stinks like cow poop but the dogs love it). :highfive:

LynLyn
November 27th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Update

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: I've fallen off the wagon....(yes you can berate me I deserve it)

I feel like such a failure :sad:

Bowser did not want anything to do with the pork necks, I know that I shouldn't offer him something else cause it'll make for a picky dog, but he's small and he hasn't eaten in over 52 hours

So he has refused....

egg (raw, poached, hardboiled with a little shell taken off, hardboiled with full shell taken off, hardboiled smushed into pieces)

He has refused the "ripe" chicken

No to canned Salmon, frozen fish, and fresh fish (also picked up at supermarket today)

a definite no go again to the beef (it's now considered "ripe" right?)

a no to the same cut of pork that he loved last time

no to chicken hearts, livers, and some other unrecognizable organ that I only know the name of in vietnamese

I even considered giving him some of the crab I picked up for myself :eek: (didn't)

No technodoll I DID NOT give him kibble (I'd have to go rooting through my garbage can to do so), but I DID give him what gave him happy butt wiggles before I discovered BARF/RAW

he got pork cooked with rice, with chopped up lettuce and and egg cooked into it.

Yup...he ate it :frustrated:


P.S. I appreciate the advice and encouragement so much that you guys (especially technodoll) has given me. Unfortunately I think I'll have to start this all over again....tomorrow maybe? or the day after? Why Bowser Why?!?!?!

barkley21
November 27th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Hi LynLyn :)
Please don't feel like a failure...you're not! You are succeeding because you're trying and don't worry, you'll get there. Look at Technodoll...her dogs are very fussy but she persevered! You will too :thumbs up
Have you tried drizzling some salmon oil on the meat? I hear that some dogs take to it that way.
Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up. Don't forget, you're not the only one who's new to raw....Bowser is too and he may just need a little more time to get used to it. Now hold that head up high and try, try, try again :D

technodoll
November 27th, 2006, 06:13 PM
LOL stop beating yourself up :D believe it or not... some dogs just don't take to raw and as much of a shame as it is, what can you do? :shrug: since your boy is only 10 lbs, you did the right thing by giving him cooked food. now if after a few more tries (even searing and "flavoring" the meat) he still won't eat raw, i'd consider home-cooking for him, it's not as good as raw but much, much better than any kibble you could find :)

if you cook, make up a big soup-pot full and freeze in small portions so it's not too much work. boil some ground, boneless meats (chicken, pork, beef, turkey, etc) with a LITTLE brown rice, or pasta, or other whole grains like barley, quinoa, millet, or sweet potatoes, and also some assorted veggies cut into very small pieces - you can buy a bag of frozen mixed veggies for example, as long as there are no onions (at least 3/4 meat and the rest grains & veggies) and add some garlic to flavor the broth, maybe a bit of low-sodium chicken or beef broth. for every pound of raw meat you will need to add 1 tsp of finely ground eggshells (collect your shells, dry them well and pulverize in a coffee grinder). you'll end up with a thick mush, which will do nothing to cleanse his teeth, so be sure to give bowser plenty of raw recreational bones for him to gnaw on. You'll also need to give him some Fish Oil capsules, ester-c and vitamin e, and if you want to add powdered alfalfa, kelp, rosemary, etc it's not a bad idea. You can mix the mush with yogurt, drizzle on olive oil, mix with canned fish, etc - just vary the meals, the meats, the supplements, etc and you should be fine! :thumbs up

MyBirdIsEvil
November 27th, 2006, 10:15 PM
He said that he used to give his dog leftover scraps from his job and his dog got sick from it and now has to go to the vet every 3 months, which scares the living crap out of me.

How old were the scraps he gave his dog? What kind of meat were they? What kind of symptoms did his dog have and were they PROVEN to have made his dog sick? Was it a case of him taking his dog to his vet and the vet just decided without any tests that it was the meat?
Why is he taking his dog to the vet every 3 months, what symptoms does his dog still have that require vet visits, does the dog still require treatment or is it just a check up?

These are the types of questions you need to ask people when they say that (or just ignore them, people tend to be asses sometimes). If the person can't answer the questions or just says something like "Well, the vet said to stop giving raw meat! I can't remember why, but that's what the vet said"
Someone who can't give you an educated answer is just relaying hearsay or not giving you the whole story, those type of people aren't worth listening to.

I just started feeding one of my dogs raw, and he's fine. There are plenty of people online (this message board and others) that feed raw without any ill effects. There are some dogs that just can't handle raw, but there are PLENTY of dogs that do fine on it.

Personally I haven't encountered any dogs that have required a vet visit from eating raw meat (though I've seen a couple online that have). I just gave Walnut some the other day and she threw up so I stopped giving it to her, but now she's fine, no vet visit required. She's also gotten sick from certain storebought treats, some dogs are sensitive to certain things. My other dog however has been eating raw for 5 or 6 days now and he's doing GREAT, much better than on kibble.
Just about everyone around here who hunts gives their dogs raw meat and bones as a treat with no ill effect.

I've seen dogs get sick from eating RANCID meat and that's a whole different story. Most likely the man you talked to gave his dog rotten or contaminated meat, and that's the problem. Any meat that's been frozen for human consumption or scraps that the butcher just cut off THAT day should be fine for dogs.
---
Believe it or not there are also MANY people who will say you're crazy for giving high end holistic food ("they're dogs, cheap food is fine!"), or that Science Diet or some such is better ("My vet says hollistic foods aren't complete or proven."), which is total BS.
Most people get their opinions of food either from the vet or the pet food companies, so you kind of have to sift through those kind of views to find unbias or educated opinions.
I've gotten tons of flack from people for not giving cheap food and buying Timberwolf Organics at $50/bag. Whatever, they're my dogs and I want the best for them. I've done the research and I'm not picking my food based on price, a TV commercial or what the vet is peddling, so they can say what they want as long as my dogs are healthy.

technodoll
November 27th, 2006, 10:23 PM
wow MBIE!!

http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/24805BP~The-Simpsons-Mr-Burns-Excellent.jpg

LynLyn
November 28th, 2006, 11:13 PM
"Well, the vet said to stop giving raw meat! I can't remember why, but that's what the vet said"

That about sums it up, after the bitchfest from the butcher and surrounding patrons I just wanted to pay for my meat and leave. I'm the type of person that would normally hang around and stand up for myself, except that the conversation was in vietnamese, and unfortunately vietnamese is not my strongpoint.

barkley21
November 29th, 2006, 07:58 AM
You could try saying:

"Your vet - bad"
"Raw meat - good" :D :p

schoolmommy3
December 11th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Shilo was started on a raw diet 4 days ago. This morning he has a bloody poo. It is bloody as he is pushing I think. Any thoughts?

Blessings,
Tracey

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 01:13 PM
ok, a bit of history. What have you been feeding for the last 4 days? What kinda pup are we talking about here?

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 01:21 PM
yes... how old is your dog, and what exactly has he eaten the past few days? anything besides raw (treats, sticks, cooked bones, etc)? how is his health otherwise? how is his poop? the more info you can give, the more we can help :) these things can and do happen, bright red blood is a sign of colon irritation of some sort and would require a day's fasting (if your dog is old enough) to give it a break and some time to recuperate. this also happens with kibble or eating all kinds of things, so don't panic :grouphug:

Scott_B
December 11th, 2006, 01:57 PM
Have you fed any liver? Feeding too much liver too soon can create dark redish stool that may apear to be bloody.

schoolmommy3
December 11th, 2006, 09:00 PM
Shilo is a 16 week old miniature daschund cross. He has been VERY healthy so far. The poo is bright red, and is drops after some diarreah. It is mixed with mucous, and some runny stool.

He did have some liver last night, but this is blood. He has been eating chicken with crushed bone. Interestingly, he did pass a piece of plastic with
sharp edges, about the size of 1cm square. He has still had some bloody mucous since passing this. Otherwise he is happy, playing and being the adorable little brat that he is.

I hope this helps!

Blessings,
Tracey

technodoll
December 11th, 2006, 09:32 PM
The poo is bright red, and is drops after some diarreah. It is mixed with mucous, and some runny stool. Interestingly, he did pass a piece of plastic with sharp edges, about the size of 1cm square. He has still had some bloody mucous since passing this. Otherwise he is happy, playing and being the adorable little brat that he is.

ah! there you go! the plastic no doubt scratched his colon and that is where the blood comes from. Mucous is produced in an attempt to sooth the colon and allow the body to repair itself. since it's not a good idea to fast a puppy, i would feed only soft meat meals for a day and make sure there is no chewing on objects which he could ingest to aggravate the scratches. :o

what else is on the menu, are you using any supplements? :dog:

schoolmommy3
December 12th, 2006, 08:49 AM
I think this did it too. This morning he had a couple of drops of blood to start off, then a nicely formed stool. He is still active and playful. I hope it is over soon.

Blessings,
Tracey

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 08:58 AM
it will clear up! and if it doesn't, you will need to bring him to the vet just to be safe. good luck! :)

schoolmommy3
December 12th, 2006, 02:45 PM
He is still mucousy with a couple of drops of blood. The vet here HATES raw feeding, and treats you like a child if you do feed it. How do you deal with this?

Blessings,
Tracey

technodoll
December 12th, 2006, 02:49 PM
Tracey, you just tell him what happened (piece of plastic scratched the colon) and don't mention raw feeding :shrug: You could always just call and ask for advice, if you should bring your dog in at all, how long you should wait, etc.

have you tried giving probiotics to replenish the good bacteria in the GI tract? mucous can unbalance things... also have you been feeding meat-only meals to give his body a break? (no bone means softer stools). poor puppy! they do get into things! :sick:

Scott_B
December 12th, 2006, 02:50 PM
Id give it a few days.

As for the vet, if you really dont care for them, switch. Its simple. If you cant switch for whatever reason, then just tell them that you'll agree to disagree. Maybe print off some raw material or books and give it to them. Every time i go to the vets i get a lecture when not seeing my reg vet. My reg vet doesnt feed raw, but has friends that do, and she says she doesnt know enough about it to be for or agaisnt it.

schoolmommy3
December 12th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Thanks! I will do that. I have some probiotic capsules, so I will sprinkle a little on his food tonight. I am just waiting for another stool, and will decide if he needs to be seen then. I will not mention the raw!!:angel:

I live in northern alberta and would have to travel almost 4 hours toget to a holistic vet I know of that recommends raw, so I am stuck with a stinker!

Blessings,
Tracey

LynLyn
December 25th, 2006, 02:57 AM
Helloooo, I'm back!!

quick question....

so since Bowser has boycotted RAW, I've been cooking for him, as this works for both of us. He likes mommy cooked food, and I don't have to feed him kibble.

question: is it alright to feed him raw some of the time? I know that feeding RAW after kibble is no good because they get digested differently.

Bowser is still not gung ho about RAW but there are particular things that he'll eat some of the times but not every time.

So basically before I cook him his dinner, I offer any of the meat to him raw and hope he eats it, some of the times he does, and other's he'll only eat it cooked

Ie: Today while i was making the Christmas Turkey, i offered him the liver (no go) and the neck (gung ho). He ate the whole neck and then at dinner time he got some cooked turkey.

Is this hurting him in any way shape of form? I can't completely feed him RAW but feel that some is better than none. BUT if some is hurting him I will have to feed none.

plz and thank you in advance!!:thumbs up

Scott_B
December 25th, 2006, 04:43 AM
He should be fine. If you've been doing this for a while with no issues, I wouldn't worry. Smal tip, try searing the liver for a few seconds on each side. Sometimes thats all it takes.

LynLyn
December 25th, 2006, 01:12 PM
He should be fine. If you've been doing this for a while with no issues, I wouldn't worry. Smal tip, try searing the liver for a few seconds on each side. Sometimes thats all it takes.

Thanks Scott B, I'm glad i'm not damaging him in any way. :thumbs up

technodoll
December 25th, 2006, 10:31 PM
you're doing good, LynLyn! :thumbs up

x.l.r.8
January 16th, 2007, 02:39 PM
This thread answered all the questions I had but today I chickened out. Were on week 3 and week 1 consisted of chicken, backs, wings, thigh's, through to half a chicken. Week 2 saw some pork riblets added along with some pork hearts, week 3 saw more pork added to the chicken along with beef hearts. Now last week IGA was selling pork shoulders for 99c/lb so grabbed a few, seems one of these and some organ meat and a few chicken backs will last a week, so now we have the last section of meat from the pork shoulder and it contains the bone, i know so far he has eaten most bones but is the shoulder cosideded one of the weight bearing bones to avoid? i decided I wasn't sure so i cut it out and made up the meal with a huge turkey leg. Riley didn't seem to botherd but I would rather have not cut the bone out, a butcher I am not, so it was a messy 20 minute operation and I ruined a good knife :shrug: This is the first problem I have come up against so would like to resolve it before I forget for another week. i am also having to look for another freezer as we had a friend who donated 4 chickens to the cause and a duck. Were working towards the reds meats more and more, I have a few hearts, livers and tounge's to work through and I'm waiting for another neighbour to put his 6 calfs in. I think Lamb was the cause of Rileys itching, but it was minor and he did so very badly on the wellness lamb i'm going to avoid that if nothing else effects him. SO back to the shoulder, give the big bone or not. By the way Riley is only 70lbs (although looks much bigger) and is probably something like a wolfhound/shepherd mix.
And to asnwer a question on cost. hmm! about the same all in. We were going through about a 40lb bag of canadie a month, so $55. meat at 99c lb (1.4 lb day required) 1.4 X 30 = $42, dilute that down with chicken necks and backs (40lb for $15) and organ mix from local meat packers (40lbs for $20) and you can do it easy for $40 month, seems cheaper, but you need to run a extra freezer and I put daily portions into ziplock bags, I had to buy containers to store it in the fridge. I decient knife set for cutting large portions of meat (or a hacksaw to deal with the frozen stuff). All adds up, but you may be feeling lavish and splash out on an oxtail, I'm adding omega 3 (granted it's only $15 for 150 but you have to count it) untill I find a cheap place for fish/heads. We have a fishing lake 5 minutes up the road so I may put a 'wanted' poster up there for heads left over. The rest is left over treats (cooked bits of meat for training) left over veg, pasta blended down and thrown into a bowl (blened because of the veg) and that is not added to his diet requirement, just as a way to dispose of the left overs AND make Riley a happy boy. We also brought 2 mats from wally-mart for $2.50 to eat off and a big hallway mat (on special for $9.99 at somewhere like zellers or Canadian tire) for him to lie on while eating (our kitchen is tile), so we have broken even. Oh add a few extra dollar store spray bottles, some white vinegar and a bit of bleach (dollar stores get my buck on these items) and you have clean up sorted. Like all things you are about to change, read, read and read some more, don't believe it jsut because it's on hte internet, use your judgement and make the choice that works for you, this works for us but I'm still learning as fast as I can. :dog:

technodoll
January 16th, 2007, 03:06 PM
very interesting xlr8 :)

i too buy those same bone-in pork roasts at IGA and i leave the bones IN. my little girl (well she's 83 lbs now but even as a puppy..) will munch and nibble and crunch through it, not all in one setting, might take a few meals but she looooves it! never any tummy problems either, she's a slow and thorough chewer. same with my big boy, it's a meal AND a workout & tooth cleaning :dog: trick: you can carve the big meaty bit out, takes 30 seconds, and serve that with a turkey neck or something. next meal, serve the meaty bone and voila!

I buy all my plastic freezer bags at dollorama and reuse them (rinse in hot water and some dish soap, hang to dry), i bought one amazing meat cleaver in chinatown for $15, which i sharpen before cutting any meat with bones, it's tough as nails! :thumbs up YES there will be some initial set-up costs but look at what you are saving over the life of your dog... no vet teeth cleaning, no expensive chew-toys, no antibiotics and meds for this and that ailment or allergies or vomiting yadi yadi, no endless bags for the poop patrol, less shedding = less cleanup for your vaccuum, etc etc ;)

i too "recycle" meal leftovers, all softer veggies get boiled with some rice and pureed, the dogs love the occasional white pasta, i freeze all the whole-grain bread just before it goes stale and that is one of their favorite treats (frozen bread slice), etc. nothing goes to waste here :highfive:

x.l.r.8
January 16th, 2007, 06:52 PM
carve the big meaty bit out :laughing: took me 20 minutes :sad: had I known I would have jsut let him pick it clean, I just wasn't sure if it was classed as one of the weight bearing bones and be way to tough. I tried cutting through it (hence hte broken knife) but a cleaver would be the way to go.
And life is to short to wash up those bags, if it dosen't go in the dishwasher, it gets used once :D

Scott_B
January 16th, 2007, 06:57 PM
If you watch them, you can beed those bones if they're meaty, then just remove the bone when they the meat off and you see them start to knaw on it. Thats what i do when i feed deer legs.

technodoll
January 16th, 2007, 06:57 PM
nah, weight-bearing bones: think big thick bull legs :D and what can i say... i hate seeing perfectly good plastic bags go to waste :o

babyrocky1
January 19th, 2007, 08:02 PM
Hi guys, I have been posting for a while on another thread about Rocky, my "pit bull" who is having alot of trouble with Gas! He is almost eight and Technodoll had recommended that I try raw, I have been reading over this whole thread and honestly I know its not going to happen, I am much too unorganized and very often dont have groceries in the apt for myself so dog food is just a better choice for us... Im also extremely squeemish about meat.
Anyhow, Rocky has been on wellness for a bit, I was switching him from Wysong cause his poo was very runny and he was gassy, then for weeks he was up all night with gas, no diariah but LOTS if gas! I now have the problem somewhat under control as I am feeding him his kibble (the mixture of both brands) in the am and late at night (i get home arounbd midnight) I have boiled chicken and brown rice for him. He is doing much better but I am wondering if I could continue to do something similar but switch his last meal to a raw meat and I also need to find a kibble that is better for him. I have also been wondering about eggs, I will try a bit of raw egg to his kibble in the am.... Im aware that what Ive done here with his diet cannot be permanent as Im sure hes getting to much chicken and rice but this is what has been helping with his tummy and our sleep! ( I guess what I am asking here is what a good meal at night might be with some raw ingrediants and if you guys thing this would help) I know that its said that some raw is better than none but I also get caught up in worrieng about how close or far apart I can feed the raw once hes eaten the cooked or the kibble. Right now he eats his kibble about noon and his late night around midnight but if Im home with him all day he will work on me for treats and snacks.

technodoll
January 19th, 2007, 10:37 PM
babyrocky, your plan sounds really great :thumbs up kibble early in the day (rather mix in some plain yogurt or cooked meats... AND some digestive enzymes, get a broad-spectrum type at your local drugstore, they really work!) and a raw meal before bedtime, i would suggest some easy-to-digest ground meats with a raw egg mixed in, if he can tolerate it (crush the eggshell in there too, for the calcium). No need to cook anything, heck even I'M not that organized LOL! also, even in raw form, some types of meat can cause gas for certain dogs so it is a question of finding out what works best for your sweetie by trying things out ;)

babyrocky1
January 24th, 2007, 12:17 PM
Thanks Technodoll, I actually got him the enzymes but they didnt help so I have temporarily cut them out. This week I have stuck to the boiled chicken and rice at night, and sometimes even earlier in the day and his two kibles mixed together, the wysong and the Wellness, and this has been working. Much less gas but I would also say he is pooping alot, although not diariah... so maybe he is getting just too much food...
Anyhow, I was reluctant to try the raw til I could see for sure what was going on. I now feel that if he can digest his chicken and brown rice with no problem, its obviously something in the kibble, but he seems okay as long as he d oesnt eat the kibble at night. I am now looking for an easily digested "high end" kibble for him with as few ingrediants as possible in order to "keep it simple" and once I switch again I will reintroduce the enzymes if needed. I want to now try the raw and eventually do the kibble in the am and the raw at night, but I would like to try the raw first during the day, (just in case of diariah) so how long after must I wait after hes eaten kibble to give him raw? Or visa versa? (oh I tried to give him a small raw egg and he would have nothing to do with it!)

technodoll
January 24th, 2007, 12:58 PM
try a frozen raw egg... peeled... most dogs love it as a treat! but served all slimy, uughh, most dogs prefer it mixed into other goodies... :p

just know that raw digests about 3 times faster than kibble, if that can help you plan your meals?... so if you feed at 9am and 6pm (for example) then i would do raw in the morning and kibble at night. but if you feed at 6am and 9pm, i would do the opposite... make sense? :o

Myka
January 28th, 2008, 11:31 PM
I gotta resurrect this thread! It is awesome!!! I just read through the entire thread, and learned more than any book has ever offered me. :lightbulb:

A few questions about probiotics: I'm picturing probiotics in a capsule...is that what you guys use? Where are you guys getting probiotics or do you use yogurt? Health food store? Drug store? How much for a 75lb dog? I want to use it in the beginning to help prevent diarrhea, how long should I have her on it?

Cheers! :thumbs up

pitgrrl
January 29th, 2008, 08:08 AM
Some people use yogurt, others kefir, I've even known of a couple of people giving Bio-K (sort of a super yogurt in regards to bacteria). Probiotics in supplement form are also certainly used (starting with a small amount and working up) as they often have multiple types of bacteria rather than just acidophollis (clearly I butchered that word :laughing:).

All that said though, you may very well not need them.

Myka
January 29th, 2008, 09:03 AM
You can buy capsules of just acidophilus...is that what I want then? I was going to start her on it a week before changing her to raw, then change her morning meal (7 am) to raw chicken, then if that's all good after a week I'll change her evening meal (6 pm) to raw as well. Would a month of acidophilus be sufficient to get her gut flora going?

Please keep in mind that my dog has been eating kibble (Nutro) for 9 years. Her tummy is good on kibble, but if she ever gets into something that is not her kibble then she has baaaaaaaaaaaaad diarrhea. :yuck:

babyrocky1
January 29th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Yay, I was just about to search for his thread! Well a year later! rocky is on raw now and he loves it... I am concerned about the balance though, he is refusing his veggies etc... he is hardly eating anything but meat and bone...
I have been shredding raw veggies and putting them in with ground raw meat but I don't know if he is getting enough.

Ive asked my vet but he just told me to buy stuff from the pet store which is hugely expensive and had rice in it, which is what I have finally found out, he doesn't do well digestive wise with... in short, raw meat and bones ... going really well, but I'm not sure about the proportion of veggies and grain....

pitgrrl
January 29th, 2008, 02:29 PM
You can buy capsules of just acidophilus...is that what I want then? I was going to start her on it a week before changing her to raw, then change her morning meal (7 am) to raw chicken, then if that's all good after a week I'll change her evening meal (6 pm) to raw as well. Would a month of acidophilus be sufficient to get her gut flora going?

Please keep in mind that my dog has been eating kibble (Nutro) for 9 years. Her tummy is good on kibble, but if she ever gets into something that is not her kibble then she has baaaaaaaaaaaaad diarrhea. :yuck:

No, I think the advantage of getting a supplement, rather than yogurt, is that there are many available with 8 or 12 strains of bacteria. I don't have first hand expereince with this, but I do know a few people who have had much better luck with digestive enzymes, rather than probiotics, for the type of thing you're describing.

Again though, I have a dog with a really sketchy digestive system and he switched fine without any supplementation.

luckypenny
January 29th, 2008, 02:59 PM
... going really well, but I'm not sure about the proportion of veggies and grain....

Great news that it's been going well for you! It's my understanding that grains and veggies are not necessary. One of our dogs gets no grain whatsoever. The other two maybe a couple of tablespoons per week. They all get a variety of veggies, again, just a few tablespoons per week. I've read good things about offering veggies, and not so good things. We just choose to feed a small quantity. I've learned that in order for a dog to properly digest veggies, and properly assimilate any nutrients they have to offer, they have to be put through a juicer.

If Rocky gets a wide variety of meat (including a small amount of bone) and organs, including green tripe, I wouldn't be too worried about him not getting any vegetable matter in his diet.

Myka
January 29th, 2008, 08:52 PM
No, I think the advantage of getting a supplement, rather than yogurt, is that there are many available with 8 or 12 strains of bacteria. I don't have first hand expereince with this, but I do know a few people who have had much better luck with digestive enzymes, rather than probiotics, for the type of thing you're describing.

Again though, I have a dog with a really sketchy digestive system and he switched fine without any supplementation.

Ok, so I'm looking for "digestive enzymes", not "probiotics"...? And how much?????? LOL...that's it, I'm going to make a thread dedicated to how much, cuz no one seems to be able to answer me! :laughing:

pitgrrl
January 29th, 2008, 09:48 PM
For the digestive enzyme I was told, from someone I trust who uses them, that for my dog, who's around 60lbs (and boxer/pit bull cross too :D ) that 1/2 to 3/4 of the recommended adult dose.

There are also dog versions from Solid Gold, B NAturals I think, Nzyme or something close to that, so they would have the correct dog dose listed.

Myka
January 29th, 2008, 11:12 PM
Ok thanks! At least that's something to go on! :D

It seems like there are quite a few people on these forums that have Pit/Boxer crosses. Every time I tell people what breeds Myka is they always say, "That's a different mix." I guess not on here eh? :laughing: We should dedicate a picture thread for all the Pit/Boxer crosses!! :D

babyrocky1
February 5th, 2008, 05:44 PM
Great news that it's been going well for you! It's my understanding that grains and veggies are not necessary. One of our dogs gets no grain whatsoever. The other two maybe a couple of tablespoons per week. They all get a variety of veggies, again, just a few tablespoons per week. I've read good things about offering veggies, and not so good things. We just choose to feed a small quantity. I've learned that in order for a dog to properly digest veggies, and properly assimilate any nutrients they have to offer, they have to be put through a juicer.

If Rocky gets a wide variety of meat (including a small amount of bone) and organs, including green tripe, I wouldn't be too worried about him not getting any vegetable matter in his diet.Hmmm, I have been shredding him stuff, or more accurately grating it, as in with a cheese grater and then putting it in ground beef or chicken... I haven't been giving him much variety in his meat, mostly just chicken and sometimes beef... this week Ive been putting a bit of whole wheat bread in the mix, he is doing fine with it but I don't know if its adding much. He gets a lot of bone, Geen tripe??/ that gawd awful stuff in a can???? he loves that stuff but ewwwww LOL!
How often should he have that?

hiphopboston
April 12th, 2008, 11:37 AM
Hi,
I rescued my Boston Terrier from a pet store...the reason I call it a rescue is that the poor little guy was not so well when we brought him home. He had giadaria while at the pet store which they apprently gave him meds for. Then a kennel cough vacitnations...maybe for his runny nose, lol. Anyway, he was on a high quality kibble but still had dierria (no I can't spell, lol) then blood in his stools, we rush to the vet they say he has coccidia! put him on a bland diet, boiled chicken or beef and white rice and on antibiotics, his face swelled up! back to the vet, they gave him prendozone shot and kept him the day, swelling went down gave him pendazone for home his face swelled up, off to emegency...we the parents have figured out it is the fillers in his meds...still had diarrea and noticed he was losing weight. Researched and researched everything. Finally went to store called Tail Blazers,and talked to them and the patrons for quite a while, and decided on a raw diet, but I am lazy so now what??? well Iput him on a food called Urban Carnivour and WOW so easy, he is doing so well within 4 days we took a stool sample to the vet, no coccida! Stools are normal now! and he is so damn happy and energetic! My vet does not support the idea but did ask for stool and a check up in 2 weeks to see if its really working. Now I am blending the diet for our older dog too. BARF does not need to be diffcult, there is the already prepared foods too, that come balanced and are so easy to serve. We also mix in organic pumpkin for extra fibre! I willnevr go back. Helped our sick puppy get better!

hiphopboston
April 12th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Hi,
I rescued my Boston Terrier from a pet store...the reason I call it a rescue is that the poor little guy was not so well when we brought him home. He had giadaria while at the pet store which they apprently gave him meds for. Then a kennel cough vacitnations...maybe for his runny nose, lol. Anyway, he was on a high quality kibble but still had dierria (no I can't spell, lol) then blood in his stools, we rush to the vet they say he has coccidia! put him on a bland diet, boiled chicken or beef and white rice and on antibiotics, his face swelled up! back to the vet, they gave him prendozone shot and kept him the day, swelling went down gave him pendazone for home his face swelled up, off to emegency...we the parents have figured out it is the fillers in his meds...still had diarrea and noticed he was losing weight. Researched and researched everything. Finally went to store called Tail Blazers,and talked to them and the patrons for quite a while, and decided on a raw diet, but I am lazy so now what??? well Iput him on a food called Urban Carnivour and WOW so easy, he is doing so well within 4 days we took a stool sample to the vet, no coccida! Stools are normal now! and he is so damn happy and energetic! My vet does not support the idea but did ask for stool and a check up in 2 weeks to see if its really working. Now I am blending the diet for our older dog too. BARF does not need to be diffcult, there is the already prepared foods too, that come balanced and are so easy to serve. We also mix in organic pumpkin for extra fibre! I willnevr go back. Helped our sick puppy get better!

Lolabee
July 21st, 2008, 04:02 PM
WOW what an amazing thread!! Ive read up a lot about this subject but I've never found anything as complete and detailed as this!!!
My question is, what kind of supplements should I be giving my puppy. She is 5 months old and already bigger and taller than the average full-sized bulldog!(eeps!)

dewey1680
October 13th, 2008, 11:02 AM
I know this thread hasn't had a reply in a couple months, but hopefully someone will answer my question. Its a great read also. I am getting my puppy in 2 days, a 9 week old BC. Is it ok to start him on raw food right away, or should i give him a few weeks to get comfortable at his new home before i do that? Thanks to anyone who has an opinion.

TulipRoxy
October 13th, 2008, 12:53 PM
I know this thread hasn't had a reply in a couple months, but hopefully someone will answer my question. Its a great read also. I am getting my puppy in 2 days, a 9 week old BC. Is it ok to start him on raw food right away, or should i give him a few weeks to get comfortable at his new home before i do that? Thanks to anyone who has an opinion.

Others may have different opinions and experiences, but I know for us it worked great to start Roxy on raw from day one. She was on cheap kibble, and wasnt very healthy looking, so I wanted to get her on good nutrition right away. She didnt have diahrrea, or detox symtoms and seemed to adjest right away. Its a good idea to start with just one protein source for a few days, let them get used to it, and then start other types of raw meaty bones, veges, eggs, organ meat, and supplements if you chose to use them.

Kinguni
October 13th, 2008, 01:32 PM
I'd start him on raw right away too. Here's a good article on raw feeding for a puppy: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/puppy-raw-diet/

dewey1680
October 13th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Thanks for the replies. I guess chicken necks and backs would be good for him to start with? Not sure if i will use supplements to start with, but maybe this green tripe if i can find any around here. I guess supplements are not this most important thing to use? Thanks again in advance of any replies.

TulipRoxy
October 13th, 2008, 10:25 PM
The main purpose of suppliments is to fill in any holes in the diet. If you are supplying a varied diet, with lots of different nutrients from different sources then you don't need to supplement. However some want to go the extra mile to make sure they're covering all the bases. Most supplements, except the fat soluable vitamins, won't do any harm and they provide some peace of mind.

mrbreeeeze
February 4th, 2009, 03:45 PM
I would like to take the opportunity to thank everyone, especially technodoll, for thier input and expertise in this thread. I am new to the forum and just registered today. I found it because I have a very sick Mastiff and I'm looking for some help but thats another story and I will leave that to another thread. I did stumble across this one though and I've read about half of it now which seems to have started quite some time ago, and I will catch up on the rest later but for now I'd like to contribute this.

I used to haul grain around Alberta and one of the loads I carried alot of was corn destined for the Purina plant in Innisfail. Here I would pull in and they would take a sample from my load that needed to be tested before I could dump it. This test would take anywhere from 1 to 2 hrs. What puzzled me is that another truck would pull in next to me with a load of ground pork or chicken meal. This meal was a very fine and moist grind of all the left over parts of the animal from the processing plants that they came from. This load would also be tested but, this test usually only took 15 mins or so and the driver was given the go ahead to dump. I would think that the testing on the meal would be more vigorous than that of the corn but it seems not.

Anyway, I saw first hand the major ingredients that go into kibble and have wondered how a dog, or any pet, could live off this. After all, man cannot live on bread alone, why should dog? The problem is, I have two Mastiffs and I would never think that I could afford to feed them raw meat. I have a Mastiff book that states that in old times the only other person who could afford a dog like this, other than those of wealth and nobility, were the butcher, LOL. But after reading this forum, I now think that it is possible to switch over for around the same amount that I spend now. Right now my 2 dogs eat an 18kg bag of Pedigree per week at $30/bag. If this was a more premium food we'd be looking at $45/bag. So that $120 to 180/mos. Willy who is the sick one and is very underwieght right now, sits at around 140lbs. Mister, who is a healthy and solid powerhouse is at around 175. So, best case scenario is 350lbs combined. Based on the 1.5% figure that works out to about 160lbs of meat per month. I know I can get this meat for a maximum of $1/lb so that puts me a little above the mainstream brand and below the premium so I'm definitely right there and I'd know I'd be giving my boys something that is way better than even any premium food on the market can give them and add variety to thier lives. Am I willing to do the extra work? You bet! I already do that kind of thing with my family meals. I always buy bigger and cheaper and prepare and freeze meals so I know I can do this. I am now very excited about making the switch and I know my boys will love it and be happier and healthier because of it. Thanks again to everyone.

Mike:thumbs up

MerlinsHope
February 26th, 2009, 01:43 PM
another stupid question. If raw is a dog's natural diet, then why do we have to add probiotics to help them digest it? Is it just in the begining that you add these? I've read alot Raw feeders don't add any supplements to their diet... So are these supplements mandatory, or just recomended ??

Not stupid at all and very valuable!!!

Please be careful with additives. I know a lot of people have a tendancy to supplement, but if your dog is eating quality food there is no real reason to ever supplement, and if your dog is on a quality commercial food, it is balanced to offer their required amounts of minerals and vitamins and you'd again be 'over supplementing".

Cod liver oil should not be considered for dogs, it is too high in vitamin A and dogs do overdose on high levels of vitamin A and does not offer any viable source of Omega 3+6, which is why we feed fish pills in the first place.

Fish oils or fatty fish are good because they contain badly needed Essential Fatty Acids - this generally comes in the form of 3-fish oil, salmon oil, krill oils, and do be careful because you get what you pay for. There are a great many differences in the quality of these types of supplements and the poor quality ones should be avoided at all costs.

Dogs should never have brewers yeast. It's yeast. It causes candidae albicans in dogs.

Vitamin C. Healthy dogs produce their own vitamin C and don't require it the same way humans do. Unless your dog is sick and has osteo issues, and requires copious amounts of Ester C, it should be avoided because vitamin C is also an inhibitor and inhibits the digestion of other badly needed vitamins and minerals.

Probiotics, a canine's probiotic is green tripe. Not white tripe, but active, live green tripe, which is available in better pets stores in cans or frozen. If all else fails, natural, un flavoured, un-sweetened yogurt.

Flaxseed, again, this is great for people, but is poor source of omegas for dogs and contributes to hotspots and hepatic issues in many dogs. A better source for dogs is foods with EFA's (Omegas), the fish oils or fatty fish.

Interesting Read Source:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/12/2641S

It's been my own experience that as much as we can, if we offer species specific foods like Mother Nature does, we rarely make mistakes with our dogs and with ourselves of course. If your dog is eating a quality diet there is little or no need for supplements.

One of the prime reasons raw feeders used to think that way was because they limited their diet to lesser quality meats, had all kinds of vegetable slurries going and didn't really try to emulate a complete diet through prey model feeding, so the addition of all these supplements was an attempt to try to ensure a safe level of vitamin content in the raw diet.

Times have changed and so has our knowledge of raw.

Best of luck
CHeers
MM

Chantal.
March 31st, 2009, 07:18 AM
I'm getting my border collie tomorrow AM and want to start him raw right away. I'm petrified though...Really scared that I'm going to mess him up since he's so little and that maybe I should just chance dog food...

He;ll be almost 8 weeks old when I get him and after much research (still scared) this is the meal plan I have come up with using mostly a guideline I saw and a few changes.(stick to it for a few weeks while he is adjusted and until i see that he's ready for more variety and then phasing out the milk meals one by one at 3/4 months and 5/6 months. ).


Meal One
• Goat’s milk
• One whole egg (yolk and white, no shell)
• Whole milk yogurt

Meal Two
• Hamburger (to be changed with organ meat when ready)
• Whole milk yogurt
• Veggy Pulp (to be added when he's ready)

Meal Three
• Goat’s milk
• One whole egg (yolk and white, no shell)
• Whole milk yogurt

Meal Four
• Chicken wings or Chicken necks (to you think this is a good RMB to start with? and which one neck or wings or backs, or wholes.... i dunooo)\

And adding in a recreational bones too.

what do you guys think?

MerlinsHope
April 1st, 2009, 06:49 AM
Chantal
Congratulations on your new puppy and on wanting to feed raw.

If your puppy was fed by his mom tomorrow at 8 weeks old, he'd still have loads of meat and some organ so there is no need to with hold organ meat ( till he's ready). His insides were born ready to consume meat, organs and blood and he's already got the appropriate teeth to pull and tear at carcass. Essentially it's still the 80% meat/ 10% offal / 10% bone theory. A chicken wing is 50% meat/ 50% bone ( no good). Chicken necks are 85% bone, and 15% meat ( very no good) . A chicken thigh is 80% meat, 10% bone ( excellent ) .

I would say by 10 days after this puppy is in your home, it no longer needs any goat's milk, it will never need the veggie pulp and there is nothing wrong with serving organs right away ( please realize that a heart is considered muscle meat, not offal), . Yogurt is readily and easily replaced by green tripe, and is far more nutritious for a dog, however, if you can't get your h ands on green tripe, please make sure the yogurt is unsweetened, unflavoured, active yogurt.

Why are you removing the egg shell?
It is imperative that your new puppy have calcium. Imperative, so take a moment to crush the shell and add it to the egg. Let the puppy play with egg shells if you can, chew on them, everything to encourage him to get to understand that it is a food source.


Your diet is missing the all encompassing Omega 3 + 6
You have not listed any source in your plan, so please include fatty fish. This is probably the one most single important source of food for your dog: Essential Fatty Acids. ( at least 3-4 times a week).

( anchovies, mackerel, salmon, sardines, smelts, char, trout) You absolutely need this in your dog's diet.

You need to ensure the regular addition of this in your puppy's diet throughout his life.

If you really want to start your puppy off right, please don't only rely too heavily on chicken wings because they are too boney. Please try to incorporate meaty thighs, meaty breasts with the wing, while hamburger is good as ad addivite to some meaty bone, your puppy has to masticate gristle and bone in order to achieve healthy teeth and gums, so large pieces of meat with some large bone on is great to encourage them to do this. ( pork chops, short ribs, blade roasts, etc), so add some real meat with that chicken wing ok?.

Here's an example of an appropriately sized piece of meat / bone for a young, inexperienced puppy. Before I cook it for the family, I cut off the bone, leaving enough meat on it for puppy. This puppy is 2 1/2 months old, well, "was" at the time.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3460/3212220447_eefd8b2262_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3307/3213065618_c82be22c59_m.jpg

PS: Personally I shun people giving their dogs chicken necks. Firstly there is not enough meat on it to consider it an appropriate food source, and your puppy can and will choke on it. If you want to feed a chicken neck, please make sure it's still attached to the chicken. It is at any day of the week a poor, poor food source for people attempting to feed raw.

Many people gravitate towards chicken necks simply because they are cheap. They make up all kinds of excuses for feeding them, but to me, the fact is, it's because of the price period. That's the same attitude and mentality that compels people to purchase cheap dog food as well. Positive nutrition, especially an appropriate raw regime is not about doing things on the 'cheap', it's about supplying your dog with quality nutrition, which doesn't have to cost a fortune either.

Best of luck.

RaceRngr
September 20th, 2009, 07:17 PM
Ok, so I switched my dog to leg quarters for a whole week and he loves them, I think he likes the bones more then anything. My concern is that he isn't getting all of the nutrition he needs, I feel like I should be giving him potatoes or vegetables or something else to complete his meal. We haven't tried organs yet, but as of right now that is my big concern, making sure the meal is complete and developing a "routine."

MerlinsHope
September 22nd, 2009, 12:13 PM
Potatoes and vegetables

Your dog is not a human. if he was out there in the wild running with his brothers, they would not be hunting down potatoes and vegetables.

You MUST ensure that your dog has appropriate EFA's ( Essential Fatty Acids). Do NOT overlook this step

It means you must feed your dog fatty fish like smelt, sardines, mackerel or salmon and if you cannot, you need to supplement with the actual oil, which you can find in pill form at the health food store. It's normally guised as wild salmon oil, or 3-fish oil or krill oil. Do not buy Cod liver oil, that is not the same thing.

Again, you can't just feed meats. Your dog needs organs and a variety of meat. If your dog caught a chicken, he'd have meat, at least two kidneys, one heart and one liver.
So please remember to serve up some organs to balance out the meal.

If you're hell bent on feed vegetables gravitate over to GREEN tripe. This is also an essential ingredient in any raw diet. You can buy this fresh ( frozen) or in cans at the pet store.

MM
:)

RaceRngr
September 22nd, 2009, 08:56 PM
I'm not hellbent on anything except doing the best that I can for my dog. I am just a little confused by everything I've read on here and other places. So if I just feed a variety of meat (mainly chicken, but beef and fish as well), bones, and organs, my dog will be ok and be getting everything he should be getting.

MerlinsHope
September 23rd, 2009, 04:59 AM
I am just a little confused by everything I've read on here and other places.

Don't feel bad about that. It happens. We are so conditioned to apply our human values onto our dogs that we have to teach ourselves to start thinking differently and to look at our dog as what they are... dogs... not humans. Always look towards Mother Nature, if you do, rarely will you make any mistakes.

Check your stools. They should not be white or yellow ( an indicator of too much bone in the diet).
Other than that, keep on truckin with the meats.
You can read more at rawpets.ca

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Cheers

ankromjw
September 16th, 2010, 10:49 AM
there is so much to tell, yet so little! :D All i can say is that, after doing it for over two years now and knowing plenty of other folks who do, too - man, is it ever eeeeaaaasyyyy. all that hoopla about bacteria and veggie mush and storage and mess? it's just that: hoopla!
i started out with the BARF model and not only was it time-consuming, it gave my boy the runs: it was too complicated. He unfortunately was one of the 5% or so of dogs who just does not like raw food, so he's been on kibble for 6 months now and you know what? his coat is crappy, his teeth are yellow, and when the summer rush is over he is going back on raw whether he likes it or not.
So, i have now adopted (loosely!) the prey-model diet, my 7-mth old girl loves it and in fact i cannot get her to eat a fruit or a veggie no matter what i do to it, LOL! she just looks at me like but moooom, i'm a carnivore! :p
Storage: a little chest-freezer, and a plastic bin in the fridge for the defrosted stuff. i clean it every couple od days when i think about it. no big deal, no human food touches it.
Buying meats: i found a couple of butchers who have good prices on staples like beef heart, organ meats, ground beef, & goat. Green tripe i buy from holistic petstore. I check the weekly sales flyers for good deals on turkey, chicken and pork. Eggs are always cheap and i stock up on canned fish at the dollar store. My dogs rarely like raw fish, so i've stopped buying it. I also add plain yogurt, cottage cheese, olive oil, canned dog food, etc to the diet. And because i believe variety is the key to a healthy diet, my girl often gets a frozen whole-wheat bagel or slice of bread to snack on, sometimes with peanut-butter or cream cheese. Both dogs looove this :) oh and a couple times per week they get plate leftovers like pasta, soup, meat bits, cheese etc mixed in their dinners.
some dogs like their meats lightly seared, or room temp, or semi-frozen, or completely frozen. The warmer the weather, the colder they like their food. really up to you to experiment in what your dog likes, it's really fun too.
And for those who think all this is time-consuming... Once per month, it takes me 30 mins for a round-trip to the butcher's, and another 2 minutes to dump everything in the freezer. About 4 times/ week, before going to bed, i pull out stuff and let defrost in a big bowl on the counter overnight. Breakfast = select a piece of meat/ meaty bone, drop in dog's bowl, put bowl down, store the rest in the plastic bin in the fridge, wash hands.
OK i'm sure you have questions, i don't have time right now to write a book, LOL - ask away! :highfive:

Hey I see you are an akita lady. Me too. This is my second one and nothing like my first one. Just like people, different huh.

pick
March 18th, 2011, 07:19 PM
Sow let me see if I get the point: clean well the raw, select the kind and amount of bones and let them accustom to eat slowly raw food and all everything will going to be just fine is that all for begining?

Is there any age to start or can I started to feed in any time?

SamIam
March 18th, 2011, 07:42 PM
Some puppies are fed raw right from weaning at the breeder's. As long as the diet is carefully balanced to support health and growth you can start a puppy with no problems.

Masha
March 18th, 2011, 10:10 PM
Check out: www.rawmeatybones.com it has a lot of info on raw feeding which I used when i switched my guy to raw. A puppy can eat raw meat too, so can kittens. My sister's kittens have been raw fed since 4 months old.