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Neutering & Muscle Development

PLR
May 11th, 2006, 07:59 AM
I am a novice breeder of Labrador Retrievers, when I place a pup I have a contract signed that requires the pup be neutered or spayed by the time he/she is 6 months old. One customer has gotten back to me with the following, "The vet said that he could get neutered around 6 months old and it won’t be as painful and will be a quick one-day recovery. But he would grow looking more like a puppy with a smaller head and less well-defined muscles. Whereas, if he were to be neutered around a year, he would grow looking more masculine with a well-proportioned body and good muscles." When I called the vet, he told me that the dog would get 'thicker' if allowed to develop to sexual maturity. The vet failed to explain this to me and I can find nothing to support this theory. Is this true or false and why/how can it be so? Please help those of us who try to responsible breeders.:ca:

LM1313
May 11th, 2006, 09:04 AM
My lab mix was spayed at six months and she definitely didn't look like a puppy. If by "well-defined" you mean "highly visible", well, I'm not sure because she had a thick double coat like a border collie, not a smooth lab coat. But there was nothing wrong with her muscles as far as power went, believe me! ;)

The longest I've heard recommended for waiting is six months, not a year. Many people get it done sometime after eight weeks.

The vet said that he could get neutered around 6 months old and it won’t be as painful and will be a quick one-day recovery.

I'm a little confused . . . won't be as painful as what? As doing it at a year? Very young animals seem to recover the fastest. My kittens were done at eight weeks and the next day you would never have known they'd been to surgery. :)

OntarioGreys
May 11th, 2006, 09:26 AM
Read the first paragraph in this article

http://andersbouviers.tripod.com/neutering.htm

It is too bad you are so far away, otherwise I would take you over to a greyhound adoption kennel local to me, you could then get a first hand look at about 20 unneutered adult male greyhounds, and you would be able to see how much variation there is, genetics plays a big role in build and musculature

Here is 2 unneutered racing dogs pictures taken just after they arrived from the track, even though both are unneutered there is considerable difference in the way they look, just like humans some dogs will be skinny and wiry and others will be broad chested and heavily muscled, the same will hold true for those neutered at 6 months or younger.


I would have loved instead to have frontal views or several standing together, then you would be able to note the differences in chest widths

http://gracanada.com/Images/gra_apr30_06/abbey.jpg

http://gracanada.com/Images/gra_nov14/Bailey.jpg

Lucky Rescue
May 11th, 2006, 11:24 AM
when I place a pup I have a contract signed that requires the pup be neutered or spayed by the time he/she is 6 months old

Stick to your guns. Not much difference between neutering at 6 months or one year old.

The most important factor is that if you allow people to wait for one year, there is the chance that the dog could be bred, and with 13,000 homeless Labs and Lab mixes listed on Petfinder, I'm sure you don't want to be responsible for allowing any unethical breedings of your dogs.

kaytris
May 11th, 2006, 04:38 PM
Although there is certainly variation, generally speaking males neutered later are more 'masculine' in appearance than those neutered before maturity. The jury is still out on the health issues. Some claim that the incidence of certain types of cancer increases with neutering, some other types are decreased.

One view point: http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm

I don't think the issue is as cut and dry as we have all believed.

For comparison: these dogs are cousins. The one on the left was neutered at 5 months. The one on the right is an intact show dog. You can see the dog on the left is taller (early neutering often ends up with a taller, narrower adult) and his chest and head are not as broad.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/nmmccarthy/c39c4bfd.jpg

and again, two dogs from the same breeder - one intact, the other neutered at 6 months:
http://www.forestwoodlabs.com/images/lisa2ndboy.jpg
http://www.forestwoodlabs.com/images/bred_buck.jpg

Prin
May 11th, 2006, 05:37 PM
They say it's the opposite- the younger the neuter, the less sex hormones there will be to close the growth plates so the bigger the dog will get. Even then, it's a question of a pound or two, nothing too significant.

If the dog is left intact longer, there is more of a chance of marking and dominant behavior, and therefore more of a chance of the dog being returned to you with behavior issues.

To me 6 months is the best and if that's not an option, then I'd go younger, not older.

OntarioGreys
May 12th, 2006, 09:19 AM
For comparison: these dogs are cousins. The one on the left was neutered at 5 months. The one on the right is an intact show dog. You can see the dog on the left is taller (early neutering often ends up with a taller, narrower adult) and his chest and head are not as broad.


Like humans beings brother's can end up different sizes and builds

This is my greyhounds pedigree page, if you scroll down to her dam's offspring and look at the males in the litter born May 1999 the dogs all had the same racing owner and trainer, inorder to race the dogs must be left intact, they start racing at approx 1 1/2 years old , there are 4 males in this litter with 11 pounds weight range that means some are taller and heavier than others, BB Mailman is 75lb, Elio is 64lbs, I'm Javier is 68 lbs, Kid Ponce is 75lbs, anything under 70 lbs is a small male. So leaving them intact did not create a full large sized males http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=910012,



here is an example of a big male at 90 lbs racing weight http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=189947

his littermate brother is 77 lbs racing weight
http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=189948


Here is another big boy named Porterhouse who raced at 96lbs http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=315199 his littermate brothers prime Rib is 90lb the smallest is Top Sirloin who raced at 77lbs almost a whooping 20 lbs difference with intact males from the same litter

kaytris
May 12th, 2006, 09:33 AM
They say it's the opposite- the younger the neuter, the less sex hormones there will be to close the growth plates so the bigger the dog will get. Even then, it's a question of a pound or two, nothing too significant.


The early neuter dog will be taller and lankier. Think of egyptian eunuchs that were used as body guards.. they were huge, but had no secondary sex characteristics.

PLR
May 12th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Wow - What great responses. Thank you all so much. I will stick to my guns and enforce the contract of course. As I thought, there is no proof to support this 'thicker' thing. I have attached a picture of the pup in question (hope it attached), european standard. At 4 months old, I think his muscle definition is coming along nicley. :ca:

PLR
May 12th, 2006, 01:53 PM
The pic I tried to attach is too large, :sorry: thanks again.

doggy lover
May 12th, 2006, 02:04 PM
I have heard that early neuter can cause the dog to be larger in height, but wouldn't muscle development also depend on how much exercise the dog gets. Both of the male dogs I have owned were done at 6 months, and my vet always told me they have\had great muscle development. Why is this so important to someone that only wants the dog as a pet as once its fixed it can not be shown? It sounds kind of funny to me. I'd stick to your original contract.

meb999
May 12th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Stick to your guns. Not much difference between neutering at 6 months or one year old.

The most important factor is that if you allow people to wait for one year, there is the chance that the dog could be bred, and with 13,000 homeless Labs and Lab mixes listed on Petfinder, I'm sure you don't want to be responsible for allowing any unethical breedings of your dogs.

amen! I agree that you should stick to the 6 month rule.

kaytris
May 12th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Another vet's opinion: http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

glasslass
May 12th, 2006, 08:53 PM
Seems like I heard somewhere that neutered cats get a lot bigger. I don't know if that's true either. My vet wouldn't neuter Den-Den or Corky until 7 mos. My vet is also old enough to retire too. I think the newer attitude of younger vets is to neuter earlier. I hope he doesn't retire. I think he keeps working because he loves animals.

mafiaprincess
May 12th, 2006, 09:09 PM
I'm dying for a dane pup. And can't have one till I move out, so I've been reading a ton.. One of the big breed forums I'm on, most of them don't spueter till 1-2 years of age. Seen varying articles on the pros of not, but I've read all the arguments for the normal 6 month too. Cider was done at 6 no harm, but I have wondered after readign both sides literature, but with another small dog I wouldn't hesitate.

Prin
May 12th, 2006, 10:18 PM
This dane breeder says 8 months for girls and 10 months for boys... http://www.tavernier.ca/