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For everyone wanting a puppy..

Lucky Rescue
December 26th, 2003, 07:40 PM
Please do NOT get puppies from backyard breeders - unethical people who put any two dogs together with no titling or health testing - ONLY to make money from the sale of puppies. Please do not get them from pet stores either, as these puppies come from puppy mills where the most horrendous abuse takes place.

By buying puppies from either of these places, you are condoning and financially supporting these abuses.

Here is an article that will help you tell the difference between a backyard breeder and a reputable and responsible breeder.

Responsible breeder? (http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html)

Carina
December 26th, 2003, 07:59 PM
Here's another excellent link:
http://www.nopuppymills.com/

It easy for unethical "breeders" to fake registration papers making people think they're getting something special by buying a registered dog (even legitimately registered dogs are nothing special, they're just...registered. Like a car. That's it.)

Not only that, but puppies bought from BYB's and pet stores are WAY more liable to be fraught with illness, serious congenital health problems and temperament issues.

AND!! Puppies bought from pet stores tend to have an extremely high selling price; I honestly have no clue why so many people do absolutely no research before buying a pet store puppy. Most people do some research before buying a refrigerator or television, yet so many don't even think to do so before buying a living, feeling animal. :confused:

And in the long run, it's the animals that pay with their lives. :(

Lucky Rescue
December 26th, 2003, 08:42 PM
Right, Carina. The outrageous prices charged in pet stores for sub-standard and sickly puppies is because the owners are counting on the "Awwwww!" factor. People see adorable puppies in front of them, and logic flies out the window.

$800 for a badly bred BC, when you can get one from champion lines AND from a reputable breeder for a fraction of that - who cares when that wiggly bundle is put in your arms?

I make sure I never patronize any stores that sell kittens and puppies. If everyone would do that, we could put the mills and BYBers out of business!

Carina
December 26th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by LuckyRescue

I make sure I never patronize any stores that sell kittens and puppies. If everyone would do that, we could put the mills and BYBers out of business!

Ditto. If I were Queen....!

Cooper comes from excellent lines and a very caring, careful breeder. Both parents titled in conformation and working titles. Very good breeders don't make any money on puppies; once they've done all the health certifying and titling (all will breed only proven, titled dogs) and all, they lose money. The money isn't the point, actually. A good breeder is going to be awfully picky about who takes her puppies because so much work and love have gone into producing the litter!

I paid $500.00 US for Cooper, he's not showable/breedable because of his long coat. Just once though I wanted a Rottie from very good lines. From day one he was handled, exposed to different situations, evaluated and played with. The litter and dam had excellent care. The show prospect puppies from his litter - each pup was thoroughly evaluated by an independent person - went for $1500. And I have seen sickly, scraggly looking pet store/BYB puppies going for $1200-1500. No joke.

mona_b
December 27th, 2003, 11:12 AM
Soooooooo very true LR.I try to stress that with people all the time.Alot of times people are buying on impulse.And that is so very wrong.You need to do alot of research on breeders.And have a knowledge on the good ones and the bad ones.I have done alot of research before buying my guys.I have always had GSD's...I've went to the dog shows and talked to alot of breeders there.That's what I did with MY first GSD.And I became a member of the Canadian Kennel Club.Have been for 20 years.And my dogs have come from the same breeder.I wasn't looking for show quality.I wanted pet quality.I knew I didn't have the time to show.Or the money it takes to do the showing.It is very expensive.My guys came from very good bloodlines also.Their grandfather is grand champion.And quite a few of them are on the canine force.One being the one I have.Tron.And I am very vocal when I go to pet stores.I tell them where they come from.The people who want to buy that is.And like I have mentioned before,it is illegal to sell pure breds without papers.And that's what pet stores do.Papers are froof od their identity.Not only does it tell you they are pure,it also has the sire and dam on it.And it is registered with the Kennel Club.And Corina,I have seen pups like that here in Ontario.It is so sad.So people,take the time when buying your puppie.And NOT get one from the pet store.You are only adding to the problem.

carey
December 27th, 2003, 10:27 PM
I have just joined this board and agree wholeheartedly. The puppy mill situation is horrific (with backyard breeders not far behind). There are way too many animals already to be breeding indiscriminately for money. The laws need to change to ban the selling of animals in pet stores. The unsuspecting public need to be made aware.
If you check www.animalawareness.org (an American site) you will find posters on puppy mills, spay/neuter, etc. that you can print and post in various locations. These posters are also in French. The situation in Quebec is worse, with no laws being enforced. I am keeping my eye on AnimaQuebec, the new organization set up by the Quebec government, to provide inspectors to try to route out unreputable breeders. Their website, which has nothing on it yet, is AnimaQuebec.com.

Lucky Rescue
December 28th, 2003, 12:21 AM
The situation in Quebec is worse, with no laws being enforced

Are you in Quebec too? There are no laws TO enforce. Also, since new laws were passed against puppymills in Ontario, many of the millers are flocking here, where they know they can carry on their disgusting trade with impunity.:(

I was hoping the new ON laws might shame the government here into taking action, but the situation concerning anti-cruelty laws in Quebec continues to be a disgrace and I see no change in sight.

Luba
December 28th, 2003, 12:24 AM
What an endless topic. One that we can go on about til the cows come home so to speak ( I always have reference to an animal )

More individuals need to write their local congress/MPP to complain about the 'lack' of attention animal laws have.

SMH

Carina
December 28th, 2003, 07:13 AM
The laws here vary from state to state. Pennsylvania is particularly bad, I understand - many of the Amish run large puppymills (I no longer buy Amish chicken or any other Amish products!) Their culture is that all animals are livestock and a dog is no different to a chicken or cow.

I can't recall all the details, but a couple in PA applied for a permit to house about 200 Rottweilers for breeding purposes. That amounts to a staggering number of poorly bred puppies flooding the market. Considering hundreds of perfectly good Rottweiler (quite possible thousands daily given the popularity of the breed and the idiocy of many owners) being killed every day at taxpayers expense, it says a lot about the sheer greed of anyone even considering this. They did not get the permit but they are fighting it. Ugh.

carey
December 28th, 2003, 03:27 PM
Yes, I am in Quebec (near Ottawa). I have a copy (in English and French) of the Animal Health Protection Act of Quebec. Division IV.1.1. is on the Safety and Welfare of Animals and all 16 points - from the definition of safety and welfare to conviction are "not in force". So it appears the Act is in writing, but not being enforced. Because AnimaQuebec must raise its own funds to provide inspectors, etc. it may take a long time for anything to change. In the meantime I am working with a group of people to raise awareness in our area about pet shops and puppy mills.

Lucky Rescue
December 28th, 2003, 03:46 PM
You must be near me - I'm about 1 1/2 hrs from Ottawa, near the Quebec border.

Don't know if you are familar with Rosie Animal Adoption, but they featured a petition to try and make pet stores stop selling puppies and kittens.

If you wish to see and sign it, here it is:

Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/AdoptOut/)

wAggie
December 28th, 2003, 09:55 PM
grrr...

I signed the petition.

carey
December 28th, 2003, 10:36 PM
I am aware of Rosie Animal Adoption (through another rescue person) and signed and forwarded the petition on to others a few weeks ago. I am in Gatineau, just across the river from Ottawa.

daisy18216
December 29th, 2003, 06:10 PM
LR, I just signed your petition.

RuffNTumble
December 31st, 2003, 09:29 AM
I'm not going to mention the name of the store, but the most horrific thing EVER happened a few days ago. I was scouring the area, looking for pet stores to see which ones offer the best deals on food, toys, etc, and I went to this store near my work. He sells dogs there, they all looked purebred (no schnoodle in sight) and he had a few Burmese Mountain Dogs (is that what they're called in English? I only know the name is French "Bouvier Bernois")
Anyway, this woman was there, contemplating the puppies (they did NOT look healthy at all, but were still, you know, $2500) The owner comes over, starts telling the lady that he got them from a puppy mill, that he rescued them and that if she was a good person, she would buy one to save its life!!

CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT??????? He makes himself out to be a HERO when he is a CRIMINAL as far as I am concerned!!! And I am in Ontario, so puppy mills are ILLEGAL. ARRRRRRRRRRGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHH. Sad thing is, I spoke to a friend of mine who worked at a Pet Valu (sell only food and supplies, NO pets) and she told me that she knew people who got pets there who died the next day, and he blamed them for it. I hate people like that. Makes me INSANE with rage.

I am so grateful for the care and attention my dog was shown at her foster home and in the rescue organization. And to think, they're non-profit, doing it out of the goodness of their heart and for the love of animals, and they treat the animals better than petstores looking to make money.

Anyway, we could talk about this forever, and maybe we should, might makes some changes in my home province!

Catt31
December 31st, 2003, 12:16 PM
I hope the woman didn't buy the puppy!!! My God thats insane!! Maybe you SHOULD tell us the name of the store..then we can pass it on so people won't go in there...and put the AHOLE out of business!!!!

I signed the petition too Lucky...after I had a good cry!! That is one powerful video lady!! Gives me new meaning to that Avril Lavigne song too!! Wow!!! THAT should be a commercial!!! Send it in to local tv stations (can we do that?????) LOL

Luba
December 31st, 2003, 12:20 PM
Not to promote anything illegal

BUT the pet stores that get from P M's ought to be put out of business from that trade.

Too bad more b n e's didn't occur.

Sad RuffnT :(

Catt31
December 31st, 2003, 12:24 PM
Wish I lived in Ontario!!! We could all band together and make some group.. The Puppy Mill Marauders.....and do some damage!! Hhhehehhehe!! I do know there are some here in Alberta, just not too much is being done about them...not even sure if they are illegal here!! Does anyone know???

RuffNTumble
December 31st, 2003, 12:43 PM
Catt31: Thankfully, no, she didn't. I desperately wanted to interfere, but I didn't think it was my place (plus the owner is SCARY). I'm the kind of person who will go into a pet store, and when people are all "oh look at the pretty puppy" and they're pointing to a neo mastiff, I will just mention to my husband/friend or whomever "wow, can you believe that dog might weigh 200 lb in a year?" that usually gets the "impulse" buyers away. I feel bad about it, but you can't buy a dog because it's a pretty puppy. Mastiffs, Danes and Rotties are REALLY cute puppies, but they're HUGE when they're grown. People need to be aware of what they're buying. The lady in the store knew how big the dog would get, and decided not to buy it. The sad thing is, those puppies were probably bought, and then died behind a couch or in a kid's arms, and when they came back to the store, he probably accused them of negligence. Maybe I need hidden cameras and some documentation to catch this guy...

Although, pet stores that have untrained staff is bad too. We had a bad experience with a "backyard breeder" of siamese cats, and she had so many defects that we had to put her down when she was three years old. I later found out that she was an extreme siamese (versus traditional or classic, like our other one is, who ironically was bought in a pet store, and will be 8 this year and is the picture of health) and they are often inbred and altered genetically. Anyway, I went to pet store, after talking to a breeder on the phone for about 3 hours, and asked what type of siamese the store was selling (hard to tell as kittens) and she just snorted "they're lilac, can't you tell?" to which I bit my tongue and said "that's their colour, what type are they?" and she looked at me blankly. These people need to TRAIN their staff to answer simple questions. GRRRRR

WHO'S WITH ME?!?!?!?!?!
Sorry to be so "venty" today. I just can't help it. I've always been taught and raised thinking that pets are members of the family, not subsidiaries to it. My parent's cat is refered to as my sister, and my dog is now her niece!!! Slightly odd, yes, but we're French!!!:p

Catt31
December 31st, 2003, 01:05 PM
Our 2 cats are our "kids", they get presents at Christmas and they give presents...they are sooo thoughtful!!! hehehhe They are "brother & sister" although 2 VERY different cats, and not related by blood at all!! My parents are their "gramma & grampa" and their dog is their "uncle" --- odd yes, and we aren't French!!! LOL
Our reptilian kids get special presents too!! I can't imagine them NOT being part of my family... Some people just have no sense of family value!!

Good for you for saying stuff at the pet store!! We do that too!! However when we ask to see the puppies, they take us directly to the expensive ones...and we say, NO, we want to see the rescue dogs! They sort of look at us like we are crazy, and start telling us, well, this dog is shy, a bit skittish, etc. and we're like "so what!!" Some day people will get it!!

cmt489
December 31st, 2003, 01:31 PM
I just want to start this post by making it clear that I DO NOT support pet stores that sell animals in any way. In fact, I will only buy my supplies at stores that do not sell any live animals (we are fortunate enough to have that option here). I also do not support people buying these animals at these stores. On the other hand, if we can make the selling of these animals less profitable to these people, we may be further ahead.

Oh yeah, and by the way, just to protect my butt, I have to put in that: "I AM NOT PURPORTING TO GIVE LEGAL ADVICE IN THIS POST..."

In any event, while I abhore the fact that animals are generally considered to be "merchandise" and "goods", one way to get back at some of these stores selling sickly animals is to consider looking to consumer legislation in your province. In most if not all provinces (I am not sure about Quebec since it is subject to the civil code) there are various statues that afford consumers protection when they purchase goods.

There is the good old Sale of Goods Act which states that goods are to be fit for their purpose. This may not be very helpful since what are the "legal" requirements of a pet so long as it survives?

On the other hand, there is stronger consumer legislation in these provinces. In most provinces this is the Consumer Protection Act (in BC it is the Trade Practices Act). These Acts prohibit retailers from making false representations or misleading consumers when they are purchasing goods. If a puppy or kitten is represented to be healthy, have certain traits, etc. and is shown not to be or have these traits, there may a remedy for these purchasers under this legislation. Not having researched this matter, I'm not saying it will definitely work but it is worth a shot. While $2500.00 for a sickly puppy is still within the jurisdiction of Small Claims Court, it is enough money that the owners of these stores will take a hit (plus the legal expenses associated).

Luba
December 31st, 2003, 02:50 PM
Puppy Mill Marauders

I LOVE IT!!!
lmfho

mona_b
December 31st, 2003, 02:59 PM
There are far to many of these puppy mills.I'm a poop disturber when I go to the pet stores that sell these puppies.I see the people looking at them.I ask them if they know where these puppies come from.Then I tell them.I also tell them to do a search on the net of puppy mills. before they decide to buy one.Yes I have been asked to leave.I tell them I am here to educate these people and tell them the truth.There is also a sigh that tells the difference from purebred and hybred(which they call these pups).It says that hybreds are bred by 2 purebred dogs.HELLO,that's puppy pill meterial.My daughter hates coming in there with me.As we walk out I make the comment of,I would never buy a puppy here,they come from puppy mills.I do this as we pass people.I do it in every pet store.My bad.Oh well....LOL.:D

Carina
December 31st, 2003, 03:47 PM
I think the idea of taking legal action is the best way....this is how many organised crime figures bit the dust here in the US. And several white supremacist groups have been financially crippled here, thanks to the efforts of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Ruff&Tumble, that doesn't surprise me at all! Just horrible; and to this day I don't understand why people apparently willing to pay quite a bit of money for a puppy don't do the same research they would if it were an appliance or a car... :confused:

I will not even enter a store that sells cats or dogs, and I'm not shy about telling people why, either!

Do you have PetsMart in Canada? Every store here has a number of cats & dogs avsailable from local shelters. They host rescue groups and do make an effort to encourage people to adopt.

Catt31
January 1st, 2004, 11:31 AM
Yes we do have PetsMart, they are popping up all over the place now! I have noticed the very large area they have devoted to rescue animals, which is a good sign! Maybe now their supplies will come down in price!! :)

Lucky Rescue
January 1st, 2004, 11:46 AM
We do not have Petsmart in Quebec. We do have a large chain that is identical, except that they DO NOT have an adoption centre, and the only animals available are high priced mill puppies and kittens.

Having animals for adoption would cut into their profits, after all!

I have written them concerning this and informing them that neither I, nor anyone I know, will shop there as long as this continues.

No reply.:mad:

mona_b
January 1st, 2004, 05:15 PM
We have a Petsmart here.They work together with our SPCA in adopting.The animals they have in there are from the SPCA.They don't have alot.Just a few cats and maybe one dog.I think this is a great idea.I hate seeing puppies/kittens in a pet store.

Luba
January 1st, 2004, 07:11 PM
If they help the SPCA thats great stuff

but looks like not all of them do that?

mona_b
January 1st, 2004, 09:48 PM
By the sounds of it your right.:(

wAggie
January 4th, 2004, 12:07 AM
RuffNTumble & Catt31, I'm not french either and my none-blood related dogs are brother & sister as well!!


LOL, & yes, my parents are their grandparents. :D



Mona, YOU GO, GIRL!!! I like what you do in pet stores!!


PetSmart IS a fabulous pet store!! there's a huge one in Scarborough @ Kennedy/401 (for all you southern Ontarians, lol) and a smaller one on Youge/Lawrence.

they have TOOOOOONS of items.

mona_b
January 4th, 2004, 01:07 AM
Me gots to do what me gots to do:D :p

Luba
January 4th, 2004, 01:16 AM
U'se the boss applesauce

mona_b
January 6th, 2004, 09:28 AM
Heheheheheh:p

I found this site that I wanted to share with you guys.






http://www.canismajor.com/dog/stopmill.html

wAggie
January 6th, 2004, 04:22 PM
OMG, omg... I LOVE IT!!!

I'm up for a challenge!!


let's stop those a$$holes! :mad:

carey
January 6th, 2004, 11:10 PM
The two PetSmarts in Ottawa each have agreements to take cats from the Humane Society in Ottawa and the SPCA across the river in Quebec. They also welcome other rescue groups to participate in pet adoption days, and provide food and other goodies on a rotation basis. I refuse to support petshops that sell animals, even though it is heartbreaking to see these poor creatures in the window. I always have a quiet word with people who appear interested in them, telling them that they might want to reconsider. Most are quite surprised but thankful to know the real story. Many folk (including myself a few years ago) are totally unaware of the pet shop/puppy mill connection.
Many backyard breeders advertise their animals in the pet section of local papers. Perhaps an ad advising against buying from unknown breeders would be another way to enlighten the unsuspecting public.

mona_b
January 6th, 2004, 11:32 PM
carey.I tried that and it didn't work.They would not let me put an ad like that in the paper.This was roughly about 3 years ago.:(

RuffNTumble
January 7th, 2004, 12:16 PM
This is just a thought, but maybe if you rallied stores that share these concerns together, and printed a little leaflet or poster showing the dangers of puppymills, and post it in the stores? If they don't sell animals, just supplies, or if they do their best to avoid selling puppymill dogs, perhaps they would agree to a bit of awareness to their clients? It would not endanger their clientele, wouldn't point fingers at anyone specifically, (although the guidelines on how to stop a puppymill would be very helpful) and it might give some people insight on puppymills?
Who knows, maybe clients would be thankful for such awareness. How many posts do we see on here about "Seeking a certain breed" and once we reply, they respond they had no idea what a puppymill even was! We need to make people more aware!

Ruffy

mona_b
January 8th, 2004, 04:45 PM
That does sound like a good idea.:D