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My dog is "leaking"

kobirot
April 7th, 2006, 10:32 PM
Hi there. Okay, my husband and I have recently (within past two weeks) noticed that our 2 year-old female Rotti has been licking herself more than usual. Once it became really bad (she would lick her genitals almost constantly and in a seemingly urgent fashion). Then, we noticed that there was drops of clear liquid on the kitchen floor where she had been. When we attempted to ascertain whether it was urine, it wasn't (or, at least it didn't smell or look like urine). But, it was obviously distressing to her, although she was giving no indications of pain, no accidents in the house, no blood in her urine, drinking/eating same amounts as always. So, we took her to the vet the next day; he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) - a ten-day cycle. For the first couple of days, she was fine - no licking/"leaking"; but later into the cycle she had another couple of occasions of the incessant licking. Now, she just finished her last day of the pills, and has been licking like crazy again, leaking clear fluid on the floor again, too. Other than this, she is her usual self - no changes to anything that I can think of. She did have a bladder infection when she was 4 months old, and had to be put on anti-biotics at that time, but never since (other than presently). If this was a bladder or urinary tract infection or kidney stones, I would have thought that we would have seen blood in her urine, accidents in the house, evidence of pain upon urination, etc. But, nothing. Does anyone have any thoughts? Have other people experienced this? Or, maybe my dog (who is neurotic in a lot of other ways) just has episodes where she likes to lick herself? Any information would be helpful.

Lucky Rescue
April 7th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Is she spayed? Is her bed wet in the morning?

She could have spay incontinence - very common and very easy to fix with inexpensive hormones.

Luba
April 7th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Why did the vet put her on antibiotics? Was there any lab test from a swab that showed infection?

If not, stupid vet..this can cause rebounding problems with growth of unhealthy bacteria in the gi tract and reproductive areas.

After any course of antibiotics you need to replenish the healthy bacteria, and easiest way to do that is by feeding plain yogurt each day.

Prin
April 8th, 2006, 02:35 AM
Is she spayed? Is her bed wet in the morning?

She could have spay incontinence - very common and very easy to fix with inexpensive hormones.
I agree. You have to find a vet who is familiar with this so you can treat it as soon as possible. It's frustrating for you and humiliating for her and it's fairly easy and cheap to treat. The vet can either give you hot pink estrogen pills or a liquid called Propalin. Either one will help the doggy's bladder muscles get stronger.

Good luck!

Copper'sMom
June 2nd, 2006, 01:01 AM
:( So this thread is a few months old.......................

My Zoe has started the same thing! On Sunday she was leaking, clear fluid. At first she wasn't aware of it, but then she was. Clear fluid and alot of it. It happened a few times within 5 hours and there was no more until Thursday. Thursday it was very little. I talked to the vet on Sunday already, and she said if it keeps happening thru Monday night bring her in. There has been nothing until Thursday. So we are off to the vet Friday morning 9:00am!

She is only 1.5 years old and was spayed at 6 months. Spay incontinence can happen at any age and a year after she was spayed???? Would she need hormone therapy forever?? I've never experienced something like this before! I just want one dog who's totally healthy!!:( All this worrying is gonna kill me! I just want my babies to be happy and healthy!! AAAGGHHHH!

Prin
June 2nd, 2006, 01:09 AM
Yeah, Jemma was spayed at 6 months too and got it at around 1.5 years. We got her at 1.5 yrs and I think she might have even had it before we got her, but her previous owner didn't realize.

If it is spay incontinence, it's usually fairly easy to treat. Jemma's on the estrogen pills (hot pink pills) and I give her about one a week. You can tell when she needs one because her confidence starts to slip.

The side effect is possible bone loss but my vet said it's rare and not dose dependent (it just happens when it happens). Propalin is "safer" (i.e. newer, so not as tested, IMO), but I'm not sure it will do the same thing for the dog's confidence. I mean Jemma gets sort of PMSed when she needs a pill and it makes sense that estrogen helps that, but a treatment without estrogen might stop the leaking but I don't know if it helps the mood. I haven't spoken to anybody who has switched from one to the other... Supposedly now, vets recommend propalin first (again according to my vet).

If it is spay incontinence, you'll get it managed pretty quickly and you won't even worry about it anymore.:)

Copper'sMom
June 2nd, 2006, 01:23 AM
Thank you so much Prin! I love you insomniacs!!!!:grouphug:

Zoe has been quite calm this week, but I think it's from the heat. She's normally bouncing off the walls (literally at times!) and this week, she just wants to sleep. She's better today as she had a long lasting zoomie this afternoon.:D That's my girl!! LOL

And of course, we were just at the vet last week for vaccines and heartworm etc - their annual exam. This couldn't have come up before??:rolleyes: But, might as well nip it in the bud before it gets worse!

Thanks Prin!:)

Prin
June 2nd, 2006, 01:47 PM
Let's just hope it is that and only that.:fingerscr :fingerscr

Copper'sMom
June 3rd, 2006, 12:52 AM
Ok, so we went to see the vet this morning (yesterday, whatever!) amd we are treating it as spay incontinence. Her bladder feels fine, temp is good, no irritation - everything seems normal. The evt thought it could be one of two things: spay incontinence or a "rolling" bladder stone. Rolling stone is a stone that moves around the bladder and when it moves, leakage occurs. I got a urine sample and it was fine.
So Zoe is on the pink pills for now, and if she leaks while on them OR if her urinary habits change, then we will do an xray to be sure there are no stones. Sooooooo that's that! This is a definite first as far as my experience with pets! I never really knew this existed until I read about it here!

Prin
June 3rd, 2006, 02:25 AM
I hope all goes well. Are you giving them every day? We started on one a day for 7 days, then one every 2 days for a week, and then one every 3 days and so on.. Some dogs can do well on one every two weeks, but Jemma needs it every week.

You'll see- if it is spay incontinence, she'll come running when you shake the bottle of pills and her confidence will go way up.:thumbs up :fingerscr

OntarioGreys
June 3rd, 2006, 09:42 AM
The term "spay" incontinence is really overused.....

I would rather just see the word incontinence used, spay related is only one form of incontinence, but it can be caused as Copper'sMom said by bladder stones, nerve damage(eg pinched nerve in the spine) muscle weakness often age related , drugs (eg prednisone), it could be a sign of kidney failure, it could be structual(bladder is not sitting correctly not allowing it to empty fully,or another organ is pressing on to it), stress and behavioural(eg excitement) and infection. It can occur in males and females spayed or not. The drugs used to treat will often help to treat many of types of incontinence as they help to strenghten the muscles thats control the urethra.

A letter from vetinfo.com that addresses this, to a person who was seeing reoccuring incidences of incontinence
There are a number of possible causes of incontinence. Small stones in the
ureters, bladder or urethra can definitely cause signs of incontinence. It
is conceivable that there could be recurrent episodes of incontinence
associated with stones from metabolic causes, such as urate stones. These
tend to be formed in larger numbers than struvite stones and it is not
uncommon to find hundreds of small stones when these are present.

Incontinence is commonly encountered in veterinary practice. The majority
of cases are probably estrogen responsive incontinence. In a spayed female
dog in which incontinence shows up after the surgery it is very tempting to
ignore other possible causes and treat for this one. Especially since it
can be pretty expensive to test for all possible causes. In a dog in which
incontinence is not responsive to therapy or when there are reasons to
suspect other causes may be present it is important to know what else can
lead to incontinence and to eliminate as many of them as possible through
appropriate testing.

It is important to consider several different things when dealing with
incontinence. As a first step it is important to establish that the problem
really is incontinence and not just an increase in the need to urinate
causing the dog to urinate in the house because it has to. Disorders that
increase the amount of urine produced and therefore the need to urinate
include diabetes mellitus, hyperadrenocorticism (Cushing's disease),
diabetes insipidus, uterine infections, kidney failure, administration of
corticosteroids and some other medications and other more infrequent
causes. It is important to let your vet know if your dog is drinking more
than normally and urinating larger volumes than normal. There are also
diseases and disorders that increase the urge or need to urinate without an
increase in actual urine volume. These include cystitis, bladder stones or
stones elsewhere in the urinary tract, cancer in the urinary tract and
prostate disease in males.

There are also a number of disorders that are considered to be forms of
incontinence that are not related to estrogen levels. Neurologic disorders
affecting the nerve supply to the bladder can lead to incontinence. There
are several classes of these disorders. In general the bladder is large and
distended due to the loss of nerve function. This is a hint that there may
be neurologic causes. Many practitioners do not feel confident in their
ability to diagnose neurogenic bladder disorders and if they are suspected
it may be necessary for a neurologist to help in the diagnostic process.
Large bladders can also be a sign of an obstruction to urine flow beyond
the level of the bladder, such as a urolith (stone) in the urethra,
especially in a male dog and cat.

Some dogs are born with their ureters, the tubes that connect the kidneys
to the bladder, misplaced. When this happens it may lead to continuous
urine leakage, especially if they miss the bladder entirely and implant
directly into the urethra.

There are also dogs with behavioral incontinence. Stress or excitement can
lead to urine leakage. Another behavioral condition some dog owners confuse
with incontinence is submissive urination. This is a form of voluntary
urination, so not truly incontinence, that occurs when a dog is very
submissive. These dogs usually roll over when approached, show their
undersides and urinate a little or sometimes a lot.

This isn't really about incontinence, but urate stones are fairly common in
dogs with portosystemic vascular shunts. It is probably a good idea to
consider the possibility of these stones in any dog with liver shunts. Any
bladder stone can cause or make it seem like cystitis or incontinence is
present, both by mechanically obstructing the urinary tract and by
irritating it and creating a better environment for bacterial infection.

I am glad you thought to write about this. It is good to be reminded to
think about all the possible problems that can lead to any particular sign
or syndrome sometimes.

Mike Richards, DVM

Prin
June 3rd, 2006, 11:53 AM
The majority of cases are probably estrogen responsive incontinence.I don't get what the problem is in guessing that it's spay incontinence.:confused: If it is that, they're given the pink pills and they work. If it isn't, they're given the pink pills and within a week, there would be no improvement, so back to the vet for more tests. I still haven't heard a vet say "Absolutely, without a doubt, it must be spay incontinence." My vet said "Usually it's this, so we'll try these and see how it goes." I guess if you use propalin instead of the pink pills, you are just treating incontinence and not low levels of estrogen, so yes, you would be masking all disorders with incontinence.

The other thing is the leaking. Vets are fairly sure that leaking is spay incontinence because with diabetes and other diseases that cause an increase in urine production, the dog usually squats. They go wherever, whenever, but they squat.

Anyway, that's what I know about spay incontinence after treating Jemma for it.

OntarioGreys
June 3rd, 2006, 12:36 PM
I don't get what the problem is in guessing that it's spay incontinence.

:sorry: My comments were not meant as a direct comment to your guess, but as educational info

Just trying to state there are several reasons for incontinence as in a bladder stone would not be the same as spay incontinence, True spay incontinence would be a result of damage to the urethra or bladder during surgery, scar tissue to muscles near the urethra or as a result of hormonal changes due to ovaries no longer present.

Other forms will cause leaking, example nerve, infection, structural , stones, drugs

Copper'sMom
June 3rd, 2006, 06:26 PM
I hope all goes well. Are you giving them every day? We started on one a day for 7 days, then one every 2 days for a week, and then one every 3 days and so on.. Some dogs can do well on one every two weeks, but Jemma needs it every week.

You'll see- if it is spay incontinence, she'll come running when you shake the bottle of pills and her confidence will go way up.:thumbs up :fingerscr

She gets one a day for 3 days, and then one pill once a week.:thumbs up

I do hope this will help her confidence too! She's a bit timid when I take her somewhere and there is a crowd of people. At home, she is such a brave girl(most of the time) but when she's out, you never know what will scare her! But then again, this is probably a totally different problem!

RamonaDawn
December 28th, 2006, 09:14 PM
I was searching on the internet for bladder problems in dogs. I ran across kobirot's post and it sounds like our situation EXACTLY....I have a 2.5 year old Rott, named Star, doing the exact same thing. I realize that this was posted a few months back, but I was wondering what was the outcome. Is she still having problems? What was the final diagnosis. Thanks!!!!

Prin
December 28th, 2006, 11:04 PM
My doggy is fine... :o She's on the little estrogen pills regularly and doesn't leak anymore.

Is your dog just leaking?

Peepmouse
December 29th, 2006, 12:00 AM
We had the same thing happen with our old Springer, Samantha. She was put onto the little pink pills, and 1/week worked perfectly for her, right up to her last days (at age 15).:sad:
Now Pepper, my 15yr old Border Collie/Blue Heeler cross is starting to lick the floor/carpet after she gets up, and I'm detecting the occasional smell of urine. I just posted a question the other day about her with reverse sneezing/congestion, and it seems to be clearing up. It's not as snotty anymore, so she must have just picked up a cold, I guess. Now we're going to have to see about the leaking as well, and hopefully it will just be the incontinence due to advancing age, so we can give her the little magic pink pills!
:ca: :dog:

BEDPhoto
January 13th, 2007, 09:13 PM
Im glad I paged through a few pages to get to this thread rather than start a new one.

Today coming home from the dog park I noticed the back seat of the truck was wet but didnt smell like urine. When we got home Stella laid down on the couch and there was a puddle there when she got up a few minutes later. I couldnt tell if the discharge was vaginal or urinary but there was no smell and it didnt seem to bother her at all. She peed normally at the park and during the afternoon.

Figured Id post here since the vet isnt open until monday morning and she doesnt seem distressed about it. The symptoms seem similar but I figured that urine wouldnt be odorless especially in the house.

Thoughts?

*edit* Stella is a 13 month old spayed lab mix

Prin
January 14th, 2007, 12:36 AM
Could be spay incontinence, but she's a bit young for that... I'd say it's a UTI or maybe from just eating too much snow... :shrug:

Good luck at the vet! :)

RamonaDawn
January 14th, 2007, 10:39 AM
:dog: We took Star to the vet....they ran tests, etc....$180.00 later it was determined that....1) it was just a weird coincedence, like maybe the floor was already wet when she sat down or 2) she possibly had gotten a drink (she slobbers a lot) and was cleaning herself. I think the vet got a kick out of us....because of the no color, no smell like urine...but yet we wanted her to tell us what it was. It hasn't happened since. I think we probably over reacted!!!! Oh well, sometimes better to be safe than sorry!!!

BEDPhoto
January 14th, 2007, 05:59 PM
did basically the same routine today as yesterday.. long walk, then dog park for 2 hours. No sign of any leaking/discharge, no obsessive licking.

Ill still call the vet in the morning but more than likely theyll say if she's not worried about it, then I shouldnt be either. But will call to be safe :)

Prin
January 14th, 2007, 06:03 PM
If it's spay incontinence, you'll have an episode, and then months later another... The episodes will get more and more frequent, but fairly gradually.:shrug:

locobean
January 23rd, 2007, 11:14 PM
Hello, I am sure you know by now from other members that spay incontinence is a very common problem. If indeed that is your dogs problem. My dog has it as well. I just wanted to let you know that if that is the outcome, please consider giving your dog propalin as opposed to estrogen. Several studies have shown that estrogen ( the little pink pill ) has been known to cause mammary cancer, as well as weak and fragile bones. Propalin is the medication my dog recieves and there are only two side affects,(lack of appetite, and irritability) to this day she has had none of the two side affects and is doing fine. Before you decide what medication to give your dog, please research what I did so you can decide which is the better choice for you and your dog. Thank you.

Prin
January 23rd, 2007, 11:22 PM
There are actually tons of side effects to propalin (if you read the little insert- if they give it to you). :o After reading that thing, I kinda prefer the chances of the pink pills. Side effects are still really rare on the pink pills.

CP Singed
May 10th, 2007, 07:23 PM
HI, has anyone tried herbal or other supplements. I found a few on onlynaturalpets, here is what one of them stated about their product. I would appreciate some feed back.

Urinary incontinence may be caused by an underdeveloped urinary system or may arise as a part of the aging process. Estrogen deficiency is the most common cause of incontinence in spayed female dogs and may result in weakened muscles in the bladder and sphincter causing urine leakage. Bovine ovary powder nutritionally provides natural estrogens and works synergistically with the phytoestrogens provided by licorice, wild yam and other ingredients. Research indicates that phyto-estrogens may help strengthen the bladder and sphincter muscles and improve muscle tone. 120 tablets

Prin
May 11th, 2007, 12:48 AM
Not sure I'd trust cow estrogen over pharmaceutical grade estrogen...:o Jemma's still doing well on her estrogen pills.:shrug: