April 2nd, 2006, 06:34 PM
Hi everyone...I have been searching the net for awhile now trying to find some answers as to why my 4 mos. old Std. Poodle puppy is sick. Please, please bear with me as this may take a little to explain - I want to be as detailed as possible.
Lily has been eating Innova since we brought her home at 11 weeks. All was going well until she came down with an infection in her ears and vaginitis approx. 3 weeks later. The vet found crystals in her urine and so put her on antibiotics and a new puppy food (MediCal). Within 12 hours of eating the MediCal, she began to vomit (or more accurately - regurgitate) halfway through her breakfast - the food wasn't even digested! So, the vet suggested we put her back on the Innova. We did and everything went well until about 3 weeks ago. She started to vomit halfway through her breakfast again - but only once or twice a week. Then last Tues. I noticed she had runny yellow stools. I had a vaccination appt. scheduled for Wed. and so the vet checked her temp. only to find that it was 104. So based on the loose stools, occasional vomiting, and the fever, he decided she had to have a bacterial infection and thus prescribed antibiotics and softened MediCal (gastric formula this time). Well, within 12 hours she was throwing up halfway through the meal again - but at every meal. So I called the vet and he said to switch her to boiled chicken and rice. We have done that and she has been keeping it down no problem - since Friday. Lily seems to be fine through all of this - maybe a little grumpy. She's only passing stools once a day though. My vet is mystified as to why she occasionally regurgitates her food and why she seems to have such an upset with the MediCal. He doesn't think we're dealing with an allergy because the food isn't in her tummy long enough???
My questions are:
1. I have heard that if a puppy eats too quickly, then they can regurgitate their food. Anyone know of this?
2. Could her tummy be sensitive to something in the MediCal that "instantly" rejects it?
I would love some feedback on this...I am getting very concerned about my poor baby. She's an absolute delight and seeing her like this is making me feel quite helpless. Thanks for listening everyone!
April 2nd, 2006, 09:53 PM
Switching to a very, very high grain, low protein food, like medical, from a very high protein, low grain food, like Innova (is it evo or another kind of innova?), is going to be incredibly hard on a dog.
Normally when you switch foods, you do it gradually over the course of at least a week. All this switching has really buggered with her system.
For now, I'd stick with the rice and chicken until the stool is firm and then start introducing a little bit more innova every day (very gradually), and if all goes well, phase out the chicken/rice.
April 2nd, 2006, 11:37 PM
I agree with Prin, my 17month old golden will vomit if she eats too fast, you can try mixing a little pumpkin in with that chicken and rice intil she firms up.:pawprint: russte (PS) I am relatively new to this site and I really enjoy everyones comments
April 3rd, 2006, 08:18 AM
Thanks for replying. Yeah...I asked the vet about switching her over so fast...his reply was that he wanted to switch her "cold turkey" because he felt that we needed to get her stomach and bowels settled down. Prin...I agree about all of the dietary upset. I too think it's been too much for her system. This vet was very surprised about her reactions to MediCal and yet when I read the ingredients list I see corn first on the list...something she doesn't get with the Innova! (To answer your question - the Innova is called just that - Innova; it's their puppy formula).
My take on everything is that my vet is not familiar with Innova and therefore wants to switch her to the dog food they sell and know-MediCal. He was of the opinion that the Innova may have caused the bacterial infection (the rationale being that this food is too rich for her, which caused her to have an upset tummy, which left her open to bacterial infection). He thinks this is likely true because she was "regurgitating" her food once in a while. This is why I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a case where a puppy could be eating too fast and then regurgitate as a result? Like I said before, the food's not even getting a chance to digest.
My vet wants me to gradually switch her back to the MediCal, but I really feel that I should gradually switch her back to the Innova. I think we have seen two separate and rather big reactions to the MediCal...leads me to believe that her and MediCal don't get along. I would appreciate any ideas or feedback anyone here has...and thanks Prin, I see from many of your other posts that you are quite knowledeable when it comes to our furry friends!!!
April 3rd, 2006, 08:27 AM
Oops sorry russte...missed your post. So your dog will "throw-up" if she eats too fast as well? Pumpkin??? I suspect this is really what's going on with my dog...she likes her Innova and occasionally when she's really hungry, she will wolf it down and about halfway through, will vomit it up. She's otherwise healthy and at 4 1/2 mos. already has doubled her weight since we brought her home. So clearly, she's getting enough food and nutrition!
Like I said in my last post - the vet feels that Innova might be too rich for her and this may be why she occasionally vomits. This doesn't sound plausible to me though...I would expect diarhea instead? Anyone know? (It's times like these that I wish that our pups could talk so they could tell us what we're doing wrong!)
April 3rd, 2006, 08:59 AM
medi-cal preventative and medi-cal gastro both contain corn, I can't say that this is the case for your dog since she did the same on the Innova, but my one greyhound if he has any thing with corn in it (corn, corn gluten, cornmeal) he will up-chuck undisgested food shortly after eating within usually one hour and his stool will get runny and yellow, he does not even have to eat much to have this happen.
When she vomited food while on the Medi Cal the first time she may have inhaled some food, which could have caused the fever
Possibly she is eating too fast, try spreading food out on a cookie sheet to see if it helps
Another possibility is megaesophagus, many vets do not know about the Bailey chair which is why I am providing this particular link, make sure to check out the first link in this article, it does a good job of explaining, it may never get that bad and she might outgrow, if this is the case. the link also includes a Yahoo support group for owners.
April 3rd, 2006, 09:21 AM
My pointer yarfs up what he's eaten halfway through a meal no matter what I'm feeding him, though I've found a way to slow him down. I've added a little water and 2 scoops of wet food to his kibble (SGWK) and though he still gets Pointery Excited (my terms for the incessant bounding and nudging if I don't move fast enough), he's slowed down considerably. That and I think the SGWK kibble is bigger bites than his previous (Regal) so it helps. On a side note, as much as I love my vet, I would never take her advice on food, they simply aren't nutritionists and will go with whatever brand they sell. You've already done your homework to feed her Innova, find something that might be along those lines with a tad less protein or different proteins (Wellness, Solid Gold Wolf King, etc). But don't give her anything that's full of corn, pups can't digest it (neither can humans for that matter) and if she's got an allergy to it, well, ick :/ Good luck and post pics please! I love Standard Poodles :)
April 3rd, 2006, 09:32 AM
I agree with Jawert. Vets really tend to push MediCal, and my breeder advised against it... You also might want to try to get a second opinion. My pup Martini had a really rough start, he was getting really sick and our vet didn't know why. It took us two other vets to find out what the problem was. He seemed to have an eye infection and a bladder infection, he was put on antibiotics that he didn't need. In the end it turned out to be Puppy Strangles, something that many vets don't know about. Sometimes it just helps to get more than one opinion.
April 3rd, 2006, 09:58 AM
Been trying to post pics but am not having much luck. Will continue to try...
April 3rd, 2006, 10:00 AM
April 3rd, 2006, 10:16 AM
Well, aren't I just a little surprised...anyway, that's our baby girl...(of course I'm ALOT biased, but I do believe she is the prettiest standard I've seen;)
Okay, so maybe I should consider a 2nd opinion on Lily...I know this vet really doesn't seem to know what else to do for her...perhaps another opinion might provide some more answers.
Thanks for the advice everyone...
April 3rd, 2006, 10:35 AM
I'm all for 2nd opinions (and sometimes 3rds), not because my vet isn't extremely knowledgeable, just that she hasn't seen everything (nobody has). I'd also recommend having allergy tests done on her (and she's just tooooooo cute for words), to rule out food issues, and you can go from there :) great pic!
April 3rd, 2006, 11:26 AM
Very cute doggy!
As for the regurgitating, my old lab used to do that when she ate WAY too fast (she was always a piggily wiggily, but some days she was hungrier still).
The yellow stools indicate that the food doesn't have enough time to be digested before it passes through. For that, I'd say feed a bit less until it stops, but without corn in the food, it shouldn't happen too often.
April 3rd, 2006, 11:38 AM
Does your pup still have the crystals? If so, they could well develop into full blown stones and then you will have a bigger problem. One of my dogs did have stones and he had to eat the canned version of Hill's "stone" food for 6 months after his stones were removed to help break down any further crystals that might form. The food regimen was successful, thankfully, and he never had to go on it again. The product does contain corn, but my Dachshund was not sensitive to it - none of my Dachshunds had sensitive stomachs - to corn or anything else. My pup had the stones when we adopted him, so I expect his post Hill's diet did help in the prevention of future stones. If your pup still has the crystals I think this will be something you will have to address food wise - perhaps try a different brand of food to treat the problem. If you are going to get a second opinion - I note that you are in S. Ontario, perhaps a visit to the Small Animal Clinic at Guelph but be something to consider. Great doctors. Hope everything works out for your puppy.
April 3rd, 2006, 01:25 PM
Lilybug - cute pup for sure. Black dogs are so hard to photograph! The pumpkin that you ??? about is pure pumpkin - not pumpkin pie filling. The fibre in it helps to firm up a soft stool. It can also be used the other way to help move along a dog who's constipated. Just a spoonful in the meal seems to work wonders. I used it for my dog when she had issues and now I always have it in my cupboards. But I would say that it's important to keep working with a vet to determine the cause, not just treat it with pumpkin, but in the meanwhile that seems to help a lot.
My Lab used to regurgitate her food when she snarfed it up too fast. Some people have suggested putting a tennis ball in the bowl to slow them down. Good luck. Food issues are tough - Listen well to Prin and learn - she is the food Goddess here:angel:
April 3rd, 2006, 05:45 PM
My Lab used to regurgitate her food when she snarfed it up too fast. Some people have suggested putting a tennis ball in the bowl to slow them down.
My lab did the same. I put a Kong in his dish with his food now and it works for us. :thumbs up
April 3rd, 2006, 06:13 PM
We are on our third day of Lily's very bland diet and she has not regurgitated once. She seems to be slowly coming around and perking up alot. Yesterday was a real lousy day for her and she seemed to sleep for most of it. Today though, like I said, she seems to be a little more like herself. We've missed her!!!
Prin...you recommended working her back to the Innova. My vet would like me to put her back on the MediCal, but I think that for whatever reason, she doesn't get along too well with it. So, in adding the Innova back, how slowly should I do it? 1/4 cup per meal say, and over a few days? The last thing I want to do is to upset her tummy again! She'll be on an antibiotic for at least another 7 days...I am going to continue with chicken and rice through tomorrow and then start reintroducing maybe Wednesday? Thanks again for your help!
The suggestions of a tennis ball or other such ball, is great! Thanks...once we get back to kibble I will be making that addition!
April 3rd, 2006, 08:43 PM
SnowDancer mentioned the crystals- I thought they weren't a concern, since your dog wasn't on hills... Are they still a concern?
For the food, (if the crystals are not a concern,) I'd wait till the stool firms up before beginning to add food. To me, the medical won't help right now, because it's such a change from the food the doggy is used to already. Once the stool gets firm, I'd add maybe 1/8 of a cup the first day and see what happens. Start with really small amounts and work up.
If the dog starts throwing up again, it could be that she has developed an intolerance to the food (something in the Innova), or just is having trouble digesting on the antibiotics, but I'd go back to the rice and chicken for a bit longer. Don't push the innova though. If it isn't working, it isn't working... (But from what you've said, the Medical is even worse, so I wouldn't bother at all with that...)
My big Boo is intolerant to chicken and when he gets some, he throws up later on (not right after eating), and then within a week, he has bacterial overgrowth (i.e. the intolerance hinders his immune system and the bad bacteria that are in his body naturally in small numbers start to take over). He ends up throwing up more and more often until he gets an anti-vomitting injection and antibiotics...
Has the vet done blood tests at all? How is your doggy's drinking? I'm just wondering if there might be a more serious problem here...
April 3rd, 2006, 10:56 PM
Hi Prin...thanks for answering back.
The crystals in the urine have been resolved awhile ago. On some level, I am pretty concerned about Lily. I too wonder if there isn't something more going on with her. The vet has indicated that he wants to rely on "empirical evidence" right now and see how she adjusts once we move back to the Innova. In his defence, he just took over as Lily's dr. because his partner preferred that he deal with her (he is much more experienced). So, I think that he is waiting and hoping that the transition back to dog kibble will be relatively easy and simple. He has not performed any tests of any kind on her as of yet - he did say when he last checked in on her on Saturday, that if she does not transition well, then we will have to consider further testing (including the possibility of barium and x-ray testing?).
At the very least Prin...I have a sensitive puppy...some people have suggested some things that could be wrong with her, but those ideas frighten me so I haven't really looked into them yet. As I say, I just keep hoping that she's a sensitive puppy who will outgrow these problems!!!
Thanks again for the help...I will make her transition back to Innova very slow and will put her back on chicken and rice if I see any problems...
April 3rd, 2006, 11:00 PM
Sorry missed your last question Prin...her drinking has been up and down. On Friday, she couldn't get enough water (almost 3 bowls of it)...Saturday, she drank very little(perhaps 1/2 bowl)...Sunday was back to average amounts and today she drank very little until this evening. Any ideas as to what could be going on?
April 3rd, 2006, 11:01 PM
Good luck! Keep us posted on how it's going.:) :fingerscr :fingerscr
April 4th, 2006, 09:01 AM
He has not performed any tests of any kind on her as of yet - he did say when he last checked in on her on Saturday, that if she does not transition well, then we will have to consider further testing (including the possibility of barium and x-ray testing?).
That is the type of testing they would use to check for megaesophagus, like I mentioned in my earlier post.
May 3rd, 2006, 08:34 AM
That is the type of testing they would use to check for megaesophagus, like I mentioned in my earlier post.
I agree...it could possibly be mega-e...I have a pug that has that..but is doing really really good..