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Dog in crate all day.... with family home

Rottimom
March 26th, 2006, 10:23 AM
This infuriates me and I am looking for advice/suggestions what I can and should so.

I know someone who got a very young pup. The dog is kept in the crate all day long and is taken out only for short periods of time for a rigidly scheduled walk/playtime. She is then returned to her crate. I believe she has 2 or 3 daily "out of crate" times. The crate is kept in the BASEMENT in a room with the door CLOSED. :mad:

I am not against crate training and know the benefits to it. I know that a properly used crate can be a very comforting place for a dog. My problem is that this is a family with a stay at home Mom and 2 young kids, so this dog can hear her "family" all day long yet she cannot see them and she is isolated from them. :sad: Even in the evening after her husband comes home, the dog is ONLY out of her crate for her designated time then back in again.

I was questioning this lady (hoping that maybe the crate situation was temporary) and she told me the dog will be forever crated. I was over there once and I asked to see the dog so she took her out of the crate, allowed me to see her for about 2 minutes then put her right back in there. This pup was so well behaved (I think she was under 3 months old at that time) that it made me sad. She didnt try to jump at me, she just wiggled her bum and licked my hand excitedly and the lady grabbed her by the scruff of the neck , pulled her back, sharply told her NO and put her away.

Oh and by the way, the husband is a vet.

I don't feel right about knowing this and not doing anything, yet I am not sure what to do. :confused:

mastifflover
March 26th, 2006, 10:59 AM
Well if her husband is a vet I would not want to have him near my dog. What they are doing in my mind is abuse a puppy should never be crated that much and no family interaction are we trying to turn the dog into a scared aggressive adult. Unfortunatly I do not think other than talking to them you can do much. I would call animal control and see if there is anything they can do?

badger
March 26th, 2006, 11:43 AM
Pitiful, but I doubt animal control will do anything. After all, a dog chained 24/7, as long as it's fed and has shelter, doesn't merit a visit (as far as I know). The fact that the crate is not even in an area where he can be with his 'pack' is toally bizarre. What is the point? You should ask her that.

SnowDancer
March 26th, 2006, 11:45 AM
This is exactly why my pup is terrified of crates and always will be. Same scenario - in a crate, in a separate room. Put him in a crate at home and instant terror, not to mention loss of bodily functions. Not interested in toys or cookies - nothing - just get me out of here.

Frenchy
March 26th, 2006, 12:01 PM
These people should not own a dog at all!And he's a vet,unbelievable!I would place a complaint,it's even worse than a dog tied outside.The dog is confine in a cage!I hope something can be done for this poor dog.Maybe they don't want to keep him?You could take him off their hands and give him to a rescue? Who am I kidding,they probably don't see anything wrong with this situation.

joeysmama
March 26th, 2006, 12:28 PM
Why ? Why do these people have a dog? I really don't understand the mentality. When we were at a time in our lives where we felt that a dog wouldn't the attention it deserved we didn't get one !! It wasn't until we knew that the kids could be responsible, and we really understood what the responsibilities of dog ownership are, that we made the committment to have one.

Do vets not get any kind of training other than the medical facts? Doesn't this man have any UNDERSTANDING of how animals interact? I am really baffled by this. It's really sad for the pup.:sad:

mafiaprincess
March 26th, 2006, 12:36 PM
The ex roomie's dad was a vet.. and I questioned some similar things.. He lept locking Cider in an outdoor pen alone because she was really young and kept jumping on people when excited. Made him angry... The like 4 days we were there she regressed in behaviour because she was either locked outside, or crated inside.

Made me realize that when I needed a new vet when I moved that they sure aren't all created equal...

Sorry I semi hijacked..

loveyadogs
March 26th, 2006, 03:12 PM
well if she isnt a close friend..tell her your thoghts on what she is doing, and tell her you wont be back to visit, that it is barbaric what she / he is doing and he oughta know better, imagine being a wee puppy and hearing mum and dad home and not seeing and greeting !:mad: :mad: :mad:

rainbow
March 26th, 2006, 05:47 PM
I totally agree...this is is a complete moron. :troll: I would contact the SPCA and the Humane Society. :thumbs up

Or perhaps a letter to the editor in your local paper to embarass him as I`m sure the letter would prompt a lot of replies. :D

Soroush
March 26th, 2006, 07:47 PM
So what exactly is the point of having this dog at their place? Do they have a desire to pick-up dog-stool on a daily basis and that's why they take her out of the crate?

sick people...

mhass1129
March 27th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Actually, I posted the regs for crate training on another post, and here is what it says:
Crating Duration Guidelines
9-10 Weeks Approx. 30-60 minutes
11-14 Weeks Approx. 1-3 hours
15-16 Weeks Approx. 3-4 hours
17 + Weeks Approx. 4+ (6 hours maximum)

Any more than 3 hrs in the crate for a 3 month old puppy is considered ABUSE/NEGLECT. My question would be if it's 3 hrs at a time or per day? This would really be something to look into before writing letters. Another issue is that the dog in the crate is not supposed to be isolated from the family. Having the puppy down in a basement the majority of the day is DEFINATELY ABUSE/NEGLECT.

"Too Much Time In The Crate. A crate isn't a magical solution. If not used correctly, a dog can feel trapped and frustrated. For example, if your dog is crated all day while you're at work and then crated again all night, he's spending too much time in too small a space. Other arrangements should be made to meet his physical and emotional needs. Also remember that puppies under six months of age shouldn't stay in a crate for more than three or four hours at a time. They can't control their bladders and bowels for longer periods."

"Place the crate in an area of your house where the family spends a lot of time, such as the family room. Put a soft blanket or towel in the crate. The crate should always be associated with something pleasant, and training should take place in a series of small steps."

I'm home all day and my dog doesn't spend more than an hour at a time, unless we are away. even then his crate is a cage and he has room to walk around, chew on toys, drink water and eat safely. He even has room to eliminate in the crate if he needs to, but he doesn't like to. That's because with him being so young when we got him (8wks) we know he doesn't have much control over his bowel movements.

Needless to say, I'm not exactly crate training by the rule book yet (he's too young), but neither are these people. That vet doesn't know what he is doing. Why don't they lock their kids in the bedroom and only take THEM out for feedings and 1/2 hr play times?

BernerLver
March 27th, 2006, 03:02 PM
We still crate Bailey (almost 2) during the day as he has proven untrustworthy in house (i.e. chewing, shredding etc.) despite our best efforts.

He is not a young puppy and can hold himself but still only goes maximum of 5 hours at a time in the crate during the day (usually less). My FIL comes over at lunch to let my guys out to pee and for a quick walk etc.

I can't imagine being able to live with myself doing this to a poor helpless puppy. When Bailey was younger and had accidents in his create, I was totally guilt ridden as I knew it was my fault because I was a little late coming home.

I would have a difficult time holding my tongue if I knew these people. This is abuse in my mind.

jessi76
March 27th, 2006, 03:56 PM
My question would be if it's 3 hrs at a time or per day?

at one time. rule of thumb is 1hr for each mth old. 3 mths = 3hrs max. I never crated to the "max" time - even now, at 1 yr old, my dog is only crated for 3 hrs each morning, yet always has the option of using it. I keep one crate in the kitchen and another in our bedroom - he always has the option to retreat there (and he does).

The above situation is truly heartbreaking. If I knew these people, I'd most certainly advocate for the poor pup. I'd also tell this story to everyone in town, and hope it spread like wildfire. A vet who treats his own pets like this should not be trusted with anyone else's beloved animals.

chico2
March 27th, 2006, 04:31 PM
Rottimom,what a terribly frustrating situation:evil: In all honesty,I do not think I could live with myself,if I did not say anything..
Maybe suggest you can help her get the pup a new home,since they obviously do not care,or love the pup,you can say that with an innocent look on your face:rolleyes:
I know from experience,if you know someone neglecting a poor little animal,it will bother you to no end,until you can do something about it.
Maybe they really do not want this pup or if they do,I don't know why:mad:

mhass1129
March 27th, 2006, 08:08 PM
at one time. rule of thumb is 1hr for each mth old. 3 mths = 3hrs max.

Thanks for the response, although I have one more question - for educational purposes: Then how long should a dog spend outside a crate in between crate time? If a puppy has been in a crate for 3 hrs, how much time should he spend interacting with it's owners, walking, playing, etc?

I'm just asking because it would be good to confront the vet with the realities of crate training and show him how what he's doing is emotional abuse! :mad:

Rottimom
March 27th, 2006, 08:23 PM
So my being so upset over this is not overreacting. I also feel very strongly that this is abuse. My heart breaks when I think about it. :sad: I know I need to do something. This lady is not a friend, she is someone I know through work; I completely agree that they don't really want this dog. When we spoke the other day, I expressed my surprise ("WHAT!! SHE'S IN THAT CRATE ALL DAY!!" HOW LONELY THAT MUST BE FOR HER!!" ESPECIALLY SINCE SHE CAN HEAR YOU GUYS ALL DAY LONG!!) as she quite proudly told me all the information that I put in my original post. It was very obvious that she does not feel that there is anything wrong with what they're doing.

Thank you for those 'crate guidelines'. I may print them up and mail them to her. My other step is calling SPCA and see what they suggest..... hopefully they'll go to her home and investigate (Do they do that?) Unless anyone knows of a more appropriate agency in the Hamilton area that I should contact?

Thanks all

wdawson
March 27th, 2006, 08:47 PM
i live in hamilton and hope he is not my vet.........doubt that spca or animal control will do much.......unless you can make an anonomys complaint......running loose,barking ect.....even though not true........may get them to go check on the little guy........oh did i just say lie......my bad:eek:

chico2
March 28th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Rottimom,I had a really good response from the Hamilton HS last summer.
I don't live there,but my son does.His neighbor had a large bunny in a cage,in deplorable condition hidden away in the back of the yard.
As soon as I got back home,I contacted them(Hamilton HS)since I could not get that poor bunny out of my mind.
They were at that house the next day and the bunny is gone,probably euthanized,but better that than dying of starvation and pain.
Even writing an e-mail,where you can explain easier,most likely will get you a quick response,they investigate every complaint and I agree with you,it is abuse:mad:

Barb_n_Paul
March 28th, 2006, 07:28 AM
I totally agree...this is is a complete moron. :troll: I would contact the SPCA and the Humane Society. :thumbs up

Or perhaps a letter to the editor in your local paper to embarass him as I`m sure the letter would prompt a lot of replies. :D

Yes, a letter in the local paper WITHOUT mentioning any names might
spark something .


I think it's just aweful what that puppy is going through.

Makes me VERY sad.

jessi76
March 28th, 2006, 09:24 AM
Thanks for the response, although I have one more question - for educational purposes: Then how long should a dog spend outside a crate in between crate time? If a puppy has been in a crate for 3 hrs, how much time should he spend interacting with it's owners, walking, playing, etc?

as much time as possible, IMO. dogs are social animals. How can they learn how to behave if not given the chance to interact and be taught?

currently, my dog is 1 yr old, and only spends 3hrs in the mornings crated. from noon -5pm he goes to work w/ my bf, then all evening is out with us (walking, playing & training).

However, my dog CHOOSES his crate often.. we have one in the kitchen, and normally when I make dinner, he lays quietly and chews a nylabone in his crate (30 min) - I always leave the door open and he LOVES to just lay there (as long as I'm busy in the same room) and at bedtime, as soon as I say "g'night" he runs to his bedroom crate and stays there, with the door open.

that's the reason I crate trained, I now have a dog that LOVES his crate, it's his room, his safe retreat, his own space, and he voluntarily goes in it.

When he goes to daycare (occassionally), I know they do crate him for about 1 hr during the morning, about 1 hr during the afternoon, and 1 hr before I pick him up in the evening. Otherwise, he's out, playing w/ the others. (that's just how my daycare operates, I'm sure each is different)

(sorry for the mini-threadjack.. just answering a question...back to rottimom's dilema....)

suebruce
March 29th, 2006, 03:17 PM
Hi everyone.. ok life has been crazy at my homefront these days and only logging on now since the 23rd... but read this post and my 2 cents on what to do is very simple...

Instead of dropping hints to this lady about how lonely this dog must be... tell her straight out how harmfull this is to the dog... that it is direct abuse, and if she wants a dog that is loving around her children and the rest of her family she better bring that baby out of the crate and start spending time with it. Otherwise she needs to find a new home for it where it will get the attention is requires.

I believe in this case you are dealing with a stupid person.. and my experience in life has told me that stupid people do not have the brain cells to pick up on hints.

Who cares if she is mad at you... in fact tell her that you are planning on calling spca to report her as what she is doing is so wrong. Sorry guys but to me this is an emergency situations and when the fireman shows up a burning building he does not ususally knock on the door first.