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So You Think You Can Just Adopt a Dog?

badger
March 23rd, 2006, 01:18 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/fashion/thursdaystyles/23pets.html

Prin
March 23rd, 2006, 01:42 AM
Yet would-be adopters who expect exacting standards from top breeders are surprised when shelters and rescue groups ask more from them than a pulse. I like that bit...

Esaunders
March 28th, 2006, 07:37 PM
I think the more critical points in the article are very familiar I'm getting my new dog this weekend, an english setter pup from a breeder. I was looking at both rescued dogs and breeders' dogs and found dealing with the breeders to be much more comfortable and realistic. I wasn't looking for a cheap or free dog, simply an adult dog with a good temperment. Moderate training issues I was both willing to work with and had the background to do so.

I found the length and requirements of many applications as well as the home visit (multiple visits before and after adoption in many cases) to be both invasive and off-putting.

Never mind the fact I couldn't get reasonable timeframe responses from several rescues.

I believe strongly in the need for rescues but I find that some of them are really into over-kill. I'm thrilled with the dog I am getting but feel somewhat guilty that I didn't give a rescues dog a home ....:(

BMDLuver
March 28th, 2006, 07:46 PM
Most likely because breeder = livelyhood, rescue = fulltime job with no return financially.

Of course a breeder will be faster although I know many a breeder who insists on home visits with all families present. That's a good one in my books. A dog is for life so why not make sure to the best of your ability that the candidate is right for the dog. A rescue dog certainly doesn't need to be returned a second time. It's been that route at least once prior to ending up in rescue. It should be just as difficult as adopting a child. Then that rescue is covering all bases.

Either way, good luck and best wishes for your new addition.

Esaunders
March 28th, 2006, 08:03 PM
I absolutely agree with you on the rescue front.

A rescue dog absolutely does not need to require rescue a second time. Once is too much in my opinion. There are too many out there, it is a sad thing.

Although I don't agree with the perspective on breeders being more lax due to the money perspective. I spoke to a couple breeders who had dogs that were not a good match for me, quite bluntly stated so and recommended looking at other dogs. (these were field type setters, much higher energy) I thanked them heartily for their honest and moved on to the more sedate show lines. I also volunteered to come visit them (1 1/2 hours from home) so that I could meet them and their dogs, with no assurances of a dog and was thoroughly quizzed.

Prin
March 28th, 2006, 08:05 PM
You got an adult dog from a breeder?

BMDLuver
March 28th, 2006, 08:39 PM
Although I don't agree with the perspective on breeders being more lax due to the money perspective.
ahhhh, didn't say that they were more lax due to money. I was referring to the timely fashion in which one generally has an answer from a breeder as opposed to a rescue.

Breeders who sell a dog fast in my books aren't great. Those who do homework and interviews on the purchaser are good conscientious breeders. Also, breeders who allow a person/family to take home a dog from a litter that they know is not going to be suitable... bad bad bad..

Case in point: family wants a westie desperately. Find a breeder who will let them have one. No one else would as they have small children, never owned a dog before, lifestyle not conducive to a dog, etc.. So now, they have this westie. It has bitten every family member multiple times... they are afraid to touch it for fear of getting bitten and it runs the house. It's 4 months old. It was the alpha female of the litter. They liked her personality. The breeder had a much softer one but no, they wanted her so no problem, there you go.. thanks. They now are talking about selling her to someone else or giving her to rescue. Hmmmm, not even going to contact the breeder back. In home training was advised... oh no, don't have time for that. Just an illustration of how it goes wrong when a breeder doesn't stand firm or sells dogs to anyone standing there with the correct amount.

This is in no way directed at good breeders or a breeder anyone is presently getting a dog from. Just one of the many experiences we see daily.

Esaunders
March 28th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Prin,
Actually I got a 4-5 month old pup from a breeder, which was as young as I really wanted to work with. A wonderful experience meeting him and seeing a good 3 generations of relatives at the same time. (from 5 months to 11 years) All with great temperments and very good looking dogs.

BMDLuver... I understand and totally get what you are talking about. I've seen it myself. Its not pretty

Prin
March 28th, 2006, 09:17 PM
Why did they have a 4-5 month old? Was he returned? Do they not know the age exactly?

OntarioGreys
March 28th, 2006, 09:52 PM
You got an adult dog from a breeder?

Breeders especially those involve in AKC, CKC competition often adopt out older dogs they are spayed/neutered beforehand
some may be pup that they kept but as it matured it grew outside the range of confirmations standards to allow it to be shown, eg exceeded maimum or minimum height standards, the skin pigment of the nose changed, which means it cannot be shown and therefore not suitable for breeding but will still make and excellent pet.

They kept a pup and showed it could have won titles , but later learned it their was genetic defect somewhere along the pedigree line, the dog itself may be totally fine and not have this particular genetic defect but if bred there is a possbility that this genetics problem could be passed down to it's offspring, so when this happens breeders won't take a chance of continued breeding the this pedigree line, so they spay/neuter and adopt out the dog. This allows them to acquire dogs instead that do not have health problems so they can ensure quality in their breeding.

Any good breeder will require an adopter of either a puppy or adult to sign a contract, that if anything goes wrong that they are required to return the dog to the breeder, so ocassionally a breeder will have a return, which they will then have checked over and will readopt. (this is how I obtain one of my own dogs in the past)

I am actually surprised you are not aware of this as a rescue person, as this is important,( I am not trying to be rude or sarcastic by saying this, so please do not take personally ;) ) if a shelter or rescue recieves a papered dog or tattooed dog, they should be contacting the appropriate registry, so that responsible breeders and other resues who placed the dog can take appropriate action against those adopters who breach contracts and also to put out warnings to prevent the adopter from readopting , and also because theft of purebred dogs occurs too often, a lot of breeders have had breakins into their homes and kennels, and some have involved violent acts to the breeders themselves so contacting may help in aiding to solve crimes. This link here provides tattoo indentification info and helps to determine which registry to call. http://www.lostdogsearch.com/links.htm
If you do get a tattoed greyhound the registry in the links will only help to contact the breeder if it is a racing greyhound, it won't help to locate the rescue who placed the greyhound in most cases, you best bet is to contact the closest adoption group, they keep a record of tattooes of each greyhound they place and they all have wording in their contracts that require owners to return the dog to the rescue the owner adopted from. Many adopters will adopt other greyhounds so notifying them becomes impotant in that case to ensure that if the person adopted other greyhounds they can be checked on, and their whereabouts trackedhttp://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/directory/list.cfm



And please pass along this info to other rescues so they are aware

I know that not all registered purebreds are adopted out by responsible breeders, but by making the effort to contact the breeder or rescue , you are helping those who are responsible and and do care about their dogs, They in no way want their dogs to be a burden to (other )rescues and shelters which is why they have return policies in their adoption contracts. I am sure as a recue you feel the same way about the animals you place

Esaunders
March 28th, 2006, 09:54 PM
;) Relax Prin... this is not a BYB or puppy mill operation, rather a solidly established kennel whose references I have checked with several other breeders/judges familiar with them and their dogs.

He has not been returned, everything simply worked out for everyone involved. :thumbs up

He's very well suited for my stated goals: companion, exercise partner and agility competitor (once his joints have finished growing) :love:

THEY know his age to the day, I'M the one who can't remember exactly. I'll have a reminder of this detail this weekend. :cool:

;) Does this meet with approval?

Prin
March 28th, 2006, 09:57 PM
lol it wasn't about approval or anything. I'm not in rescue. I knew breeders sold way older dogs (retired ones) but I didn't know they had younger ones too (that aren't babies). Interesting to know because I wanted a newf or a dane, but I really don't want a puppy.

Esaunders
March 28th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Ahh .... NOW I understand. :sorry:

Part of this was luck, part of it was honesty on my part. I contacted a number of breeders directly and was very up front that an adult was a more ideal suit but that I was willing to work with a pup too if necessary.

Some had nothing.
Some had nothing, but took my information in case they heard of a dog needing a home in their specialty.
Some had dogs that they were starting to consider placing or litters on the way. (some old, some young adults and some pups)
One had my dog and I was lucky enough to find him.

The vast majority of the breeders were very friendly and even more supportive once they had heard what I was looking for and why. The breeders I spoke with respected the fact that I knew what was involved and what I could/would work with.

Know yourself, your circumstances, your capabilities and your limits. If you know these things, breeders are typically happy to talk to you if not help.

For the danes or newfs ... there is a dane rescue as well as a newf resue in ontario. If I can find the links for them, I'll send them your way.

Prin
March 28th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Thanks. It's not for a while, but I have to research a lot first. I've had rescue dogs all my life, and there's nothing wrong with them, but one day, I'd like a well-bred doggy. You have to do everything once, right?

BMDLuver
March 29th, 2006, 06:26 AM
I am actually surprised you are not aware of this as a rescue person, as this is important,( I am not trying to be rude or sarcastic by saying this, so please do not take personally ;) ) if a shelter or rescue recieves a papered dog or tattooed dog, they should be contacting the appropriate registry, so that responsible breeders and other resues who placed the dog can take appropriate action against those adopters who breach contracts and also to put out warnings to prevent the adopter from readopting , and also because theft of purebred dogs occurs too often, a lot of breeders have had breakins into their homes and kennels, and some have involved violent acts to the breeders themselves so contacting may help in aiding to solve crimes.
lol, not sure if this was directed at me? To the best of our ability we try to contact a breeder whenever we are able obtain the information. We have tracked tatoos and posted through breed clubs to try to find a breeder. So yes, we are very much aware to contact the breeder on a pup. But it never hurts to remind. ;)

vona
November 21st, 2006, 09:09 PM
I believe strongly in the need for rescues but I find that some of them are really into over-kill. ..:(

Let me tell you what I am going through right now. I am a physician who has an 11-acre farm in Williams Lake, B.C. I have four dogs. One is a very senior Belgian Shepherd that just recently lost a leg to a kick by a horse plus 'vet miscommunication' - a $8,300 vet bill. I have an 9 year old hound/lab cross, an Akbash/Huntaway cross and a Golden Doodle. I rescue large animals and have horses, llamas, alpacas, goats, cows, etc. I work out of my property. I am a psychiatrist and my patients just love coming here because they can interact with the animals. My dogs go on two-hour walks/day. During the summer months I ride my horses and the dogs come along. My property borders on Crown Land and we're out there every day for walks and swims in the lakes. My dogs (and all of my animals) get the most attention one could give them (unless you were sitting on a couch with the dog for 24/7). I have a fenced yard, a pond I built for the dogs, they have a dog door, they sleep on my bed, they get the best food and the best vet care. I have references that include the local S.P.C.A., my vets and the professional trainer who trains all of my dogs. However,when I tried to adopt a dog from a ******, I was told that I couldn't have the dog (who was already in a multi-dog household) because he needed "individual attention" and they would prefer he goes to a home where he only has two other dog companions. This dog is a lab/hound cross. Large and athletic. 14 months old. He would be perfect for this place and I would love him until the day he died. No matter what might happen to him, I have the financial resources to do whatever is necessary. Hounds are comfortable in packs. This dog would have two young dogs to play with, he would be with me all day long while I worked. He would be incredibly socialized. I responded to the add because I wanted another dog who would enjoy an active life and could bond to me and my other animals - and then to find such a rejection - well, to say the least I was quite upset. I don't ask to adopt a dog without putting some feeling and committment into that request. I am constantly having to refuse people's requests for me to take dogs. I just wish this site would have been more honest about the dog because I know I would be an excellent home for him. I can't help but think that there is something else going on with either the owner/foster family or the dog that isn't being put out there on their add. I could so easily pick up a dog at the S.P.C.A. and I could very easily buy a purebred from a breeder due to my experience with dogs. This was an example of absolute over-kill or underreporting of a dog's behaviour or situation. I should say that the dog was advertised as having no behavioural problems, understood the basic commands, was good with cats and dogs, loved water, needed a home where the owner was there all day and needed an active lifestyle. They said he had a personality that was very much like a lab's and that he loved affection. Before I could even fill out an application form, they rejected my home. What's with that????

~michelle~
November 21st, 2006, 09:44 PM
I'm rescue all the way, however i have run in to ALOT of bumps in the road. I have been turned down because i live in an apartment, they say crap like if i lived on the ground floor it would be different, but i dont see how it would, it wouldnt. they said that they bark to much, they actually said that about braxton who in a shelter situation with tons of dogs barking around him never made a peep. they have turned me down because im a student, i know their concern that i would move but i have a job in my feild already, and have lived in the same town my whole life, theres not much of a chance of me picking up and leaving and not taking the dog. they have turned me down because i dont make enough money, or in the case of the local humane society they allow open adoptions so several adoptions for 1 animal, so someone richer got chosen. richer does not mean beter pet ownership. i have also been turned down because they tought i was too young (the application says 18, not because you look too young to be serious) I had a friend who was turned down because she did not give her cat the vaccines that her vet recommended she not get because her cats were indoor cats. I agree with them looking in to the best situation for the pets, however i dont think they have the right criteria to establish this. i think offering more (mandatory) things with the adoption fee such as OB classes, an initial vet visit, a list of necessary vaccines, and treatments (advantage, heartguard etc) and reputable websites to look to for information and things that they need to know, or a list of signs to look for that requires immediate vet attention. just because someone is new to pet ownership does not mean they wouldnt be a good owner. instead of deterring people they should offer guidence and support.

Frenchy
November 22nd, 2006, 12:51 PM
I just wish this site would have been more honest about the dog because I know I would be an excellent home for him. Before I could even fill out an application form, they rejected my home. What's with that????

Even if you are the perfect dog owner,doesn't mean you are in tittle to all the dogs in rescues in need of a home ! I am a foster for a rescue, all my dogs are rescues,my cat too,I have a large house,large fenced yard. I tried to adopt a dog from another rescue 2 months ago and was refuse. They did give me a reason (dog was not ready to go in a home with other dogs) and I can live with that. I was kind of please that they are taking their time to find the perfect owner for that dog. I do choose carefully the next family for my fosters too. Sometimes dogs have specific needs and need a specific family.:shrug: You have to accept that. And as for giving information for the future dog owners,you seem to forget,we are all volunteers,we do have day jobs and try to do the best we can.

Prin
November 22nd, 2006, 02:47 PM
I agree with Frenchy. I've applied for dogs and been turned down too. But it's not the rescue's fault. They're looking for the best home for their dog. Who can tell better what the needs of a dog are: us reading a tiny blurb about it or the people fostering it?

They don't want returns, and if they have any doubt, they'll just say no as is their right. :shrug:

I figure if all of it comes together for one dog, it's meant to be.:)

Frenchy
November 22nd, 2006, 08:16 PM
this outfit just doesn't let their dogs go - they end up keeping most of them.
Vona

They must run out of foster families real quick if they adopt their fosters ! I understand you had a bad experience,this rescue seems....weird ? I'm all for home visits but to ask for money , not sure I agree. I hope you try again with another rescue,rescue dogs are the best :cloud9: .I'm sure you will have better luck next time.

vona
November 22nd, 2006, 09:09 PM
Well, perhaps that's why **** is in a multi-dog (orginal and foster) home. With the money they get from all of the applications, they can afford to keep the dogs. They have tax-exempt status and they beg for donations to fix all sorts of problems they're having with their dogs. Who knows, I don't. Perhaps once in a while, they do give out a dog.

To be honest, I don't know what this ******* is all about. It just appears strange to me when I talk to other respectible 'dog' people around here I hear the same thing. Once? O.K. Twice, well, perhaps O.K. But more than twice plus I have my own experience with them? Not O.K.

There are scams everywhere out there now. What's to say a rescue site couldn't be part of it? Make money by putting photos of dogs on the web, collect money for application forms, plead for money for special vet care? And then deny, deny. Perhaps they love their dogs and are looking for a way to finance their care. I really don't know.

This is not 'sour grapes'. I'm very grateful when someone can educate me and inform me as to why a certain dog would not fit into my life.

I've given up on this dog. I wonder what kind of life he's going to have and who he's going to end up with. But, I'll keep on looking. From now on, however, I intend on scrutinzing the ********* as much as they intend on scrutinizing me.

They're going to have to prove a lot more to me before I hand over cash and fill out application forms.

My sister is a free-lance journalist - I think I'll suggest this topic to her for one of her next articles.

Frenchy
November 22nd, 2006, 09:21 PM
My sister is a free-lance journalist - I think I'll suggest this topic to her for one of her next articles.

That would be a good idea. I think if you look at petfinder,the rescues there are usually good ones (here in Quebec anyway)

Prin
November 22nd, 2006, 10:11 PM
I'm sorry, but I looked for the dog you're talking about and probably found it (I found a 14 month old named ****) and from your first post, you don't meet the requirements. Picture it from the rescue's point of view:
First, you say you're a physician- what that means to the rest of the world is you are never home, when there is a specific demand for being home a LOT for this dog.

Second, sure, you have money to pay vet bills, but those vet bills come from dogs living with your other animals. No rescue would put a dog at risk like that. And by at risk, I mean it has ALREADY HAPPENED to one of your dogs so there is NO way of assuring the safety of a new dog.

Third, you come on here and slam the rescue, and slander left and right. What does that say about your loyalty or decency?

Honestly, when a rescue is thumbing through prospective applicants and they see all that, they'll DEFINITELY move on to the next application. :shrug:

Rescues have a right to be choosy. The reason they GET these dogs is because whoever sold them first was not.

Frenchy
November 22nd, 2006, 10:17 PM
lol Prin you are on fire ! I second everything you just posted. It's a little bit reeeerrrr,but you are right.

Prin
November 22nd, 2006, 10:21 PM
Like I said- I got turned down too, and I never insulted the rescue. This rescue is similar to the one you're bashing- people wonder if they ever adopt any out, but I don't doubt that she's in it for the love of the dogs and is just very selective. And if she uses the money to take care of the dogs herself (and I hear her property is awesome), then what does it matter? They're getting care and love.:shrug:

Oh and he/she asked for it in post 21
This is not 'sour grapes'. I'm very grateful when someone can educate me and inform me as to why a certain dog would not fit into my life.

technodoll
November 22nd, 2006, 10:28 PM
from a neutral point of view though, i can understand why the rejection would sting so much... you know you are the perfect home for that dog but you don't get a chance to prove it before the door is closed in your face, and you will always wonder "who" got that dog and why that other home was better than yours? you know? :shrug:

Frenchy
November 22nd, 2006, 10:43 PM
why that other home was better than yours? you know? :shrug:

I understand both sides,but you just have to trust the foster family :shrug: Usually, even if some good people don't get to adopt one of my fosters,I will help them by finding another rescue dog that fits their profile.

technodoll
November 22nd, 2006, 10:46 PM
frenchy, if they were all as good as you are :angel:

i have a question... is it usual practice to pay a feee when sending in an application, and then if you're not accepted you don't get your money back? :confused:

Prin
November 22nd, 2006, 11:05 PM
I've never seen it before, but then again, I haven't applied to too many rescues either...:o

Frenchy
November 22nd, 2006, 11:06 PM
i have a question... is it usual practice to pay a feee when sending in an application, and then if you're not accepted you don't get your money back? :confused:

This is the first I heard of it ! I don't know of any rescue that works like this here in Quebec.

Prin
November 22nd, 2006, 11:08 PM
But IMO, there are a lot worse ways of spending $10...;)

technodoll
November 22nd, 2006, 11:40 PM
ah OK, thanks... it did sound quite unusual IMO :o

vona
November 23rd, 2006, 05:33 AM
First, you say you're a physician- what that means to the rest of the world is you are never home, when there is a specific demand for being home a LOT for this dog.

Second, sure, you have money to pay vet bills, but those vet bills come from dogs living with your other animals.


What you don't know but this rescue site did is that I am a psychiatrist and work out of my property. I am home all day long and my patients love coming here because they can interact with the animals. The dogs are with me all the time. They are extremely well socialized due to the constant contact with people they get to know very well.

Secondly, my vet bills don't come from dogs living with my other animals. They come from orthopedic surgeries and expensive medical care due to the condition my animals are in when I rescue them. I rescue large animals - horses, llamas, alpacas, cows, pigs and goats. I have a large acreage and I take in animals that have been abused. They live their days out here in retirement with the best care.

Twice a year my vet and an assistant come here to do checkups, deworm, give shots, float teeth, etc., etc.

This rescue outfit knew all of this.

And no, they do not refund the $10 if they reject your home.

I am single and my animals are my family. Anyone who knows me knows the idea that a dog wouldn't get a great deal of individual attention is quite ludicrous.

I did have a situation recently (and I also told this rescue site this) where my geriatric Belgian Shepherd was kicked by a horse (not one of mine) and shattered his right front leg. I sent the dog up to Prince George for orthopedic surgery (quoted at $4,000) which I gladly paid. However, due to miscommunications between the clinic here and the clinic in Prince George, the limb was NOT immobilized for the day the dog was in this clinic. This resulted in gross swelling and compacting of the distal ends of the bones. My dog did well with the surgery but soon after the muscles and extensor tendon necrosed. After a week and a half of twice daily dressing changes, drains, debridement, etc. the limb had to be amputated. Total cost - $8,300.00 and I have a seriously disabled dog now. He can no long go for walks with us. This was part of the reason I was looking for a younger dog that needed an active lifestyle and was good with other dogs. Shadow is a real trooper and he's rediscovering his balance but it has meant improvising a new dog door for him and trying to find all sorts of ways to keep his quality of life good. We're doing alright but it has all been very sad.

technodoll
November 23rd, 2006, 09:25 AM
vona... please don't give up your search... some sweet soul out there is waiting for you to be his (or her) angel :angel: and Fate will bring you together soon :pawprint:

vona
November 23rd, 2006, 11:36 AM
Prin, I tell you what. Since you appear to have found the dog in question, you look at the requirements and needs they said they wanted for the dog. Then look at what I've said to date. You tell me if you don't think this dog would have had a good life here. And don't just make assumptions about my lifestyle - ask me questions!

I offerred to go down to Vancouver (a 7 hour drive) and meet with them and the family/foster family. I suggested that if they met me they might feel reassured. They did not even respond to my request. The door was shut. They didn't ask any questions, they just made up their minds without investigating further. My references included the head of the S.P.C.A. (who is retiring and will be my housesitter when I'm away from now on), numerous vets and dog trainers. They didn't even want to talk to them.

Sure, I'm tenacious. That quality got me through medical school and the residency. It also works in the favour of my animals because I don't give up easily. I fight for my animals. It saddened me that I didn't get the opportunity to adopt this dog because I don't adopt lightly. I take good advice when it is offerred but it angers me when (for whatever reason) I'm refused and I know that the animal is the ultimate loser.

Give me one good reason why you think that dog wouldn't have been exceptionally happy and well taken care of with me. And ask me any questions you'd like.

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 02:40 PM
That's the thing- from my experience with rescues, they don't have time to ask more questions. If they don't like you for some reason, they'll pass right away, no questions asked. So while you think I'm making assumptions, I AM, based on what you said prior, which is what they do. One bad assumption on their part and they move on to the next application.

It's like getting into med school- doesn't matter who you are, if you don't look perfect on paper, you don't get to the next level.:shrug:

technodoll
November 23rd, 2006, 02:55 PM
hmmm... so if i ever want to adopt a furkid, on the application i should write "very wealthy and healthy stay-at-home wife of a dog trainer, no kids, no pets, no drug or alcohol or gambling problems, live on private fenced estate"? :rolleyes: ;) :crazy:

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 02:58 PM
no, leave out the gambling/drinking part.:D

Wealthy, stay at home mom with no pets (depending on the pet in question) but very extensive prior pet knowledge and extensive vet and rescue references with a 100 acre fenced in yard...

Hunter's_owner
November 23rd, 2006, 03:00 PM
Maybe that would work TD:rolleyes:

While I understand that rescues are looking out for the best interests of the animals, sometimes I do disagree with their reasoning...
My cousin and her husband are both vets. My cousin practised for 2 years and then went back to do a residency in radiology, her husband is still practising. Anyways, last year, they applied for a golden rescue and got turned down:eek:
So when things like this happen, I have to wonder...:o

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 03:00 PM
Yeah, but vets are never home. :evil:

technodoll
November 23rd, 2006, 03:01 PM
Wealthy, stay at home mom with no pets (depending on the pet in question) but very extensive prior pet knowledge and extensive vet and rescue references with a 100 acre fenced in yard...

....who owns a petshop and a dog grooming salon... does not operate heavy machinery under the influence of gin martinis... :crazy:

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 03:02 PM
No, no, you can't own anything because that makes you busy. Your brother/sister owns a grooming salon/daycare and your other brother/sister is a vet.

technodoll
November 23rd, 2006, 03:04 PM
he he he and your "godfather" owns the town! :evil:

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 03:13 PM
yeah lol... Even if he won't give you a job. :D

vona
November 23rd, 2006, 06:36 PM
Very funny, you guys! Anyway, Prin, if you look at my first post I said that I worked at home and always around. I think, like you, they didn't read the whole thing. What's the point of these 6 page application forms if they're not read carefully. I wrote her and told her that I needed to give her even more information than what the form asked for (have you ever seen those forms??). Again, no questions, just a refusal. I believe that if you're going to operate a rescue site you SHOULD take the time to read the information. I mean, you're supposed to be looking after the dog's best interest, not your own. If you don't have the time, don't do the work. Hmmm, sounds very much like what they said to me...

This is why (also based on what I've heard from other people who have dealt with her) I think there may be something else going on. It's totally irresponsible to run a rescue outfit, get people's hopes up, demand time-consuming application forms and references and then just make a snap decision because you don't read what you've requested.

GRRRRR!! I guess I'm so upset because I had just been through another misunderstanding with Shadow. All the vets at this clinic know that when one of my animals comes in, they shouldn't make assumptions as to what the outcome will necessarily be. In this case, we have a brand new vet whom I had never worked with before. She just assumed that because Shadow was 13 I would choose either euthanasia or amputation. So she did nothing - no pain medication, no IM antibiotics and she didn't splint the limb. Had the clinic not been so busy that day one of the other vets would have clued her in. And because they were so busy the front staff didn't communicate with the back staff and the vet didn't communicate with anyone. Not even me! She didn't even pick up the phone to ask me what I wanted to do. The vet in Prince George talked to someone at the front and he talked to the vet (asking her to do those three simple things) but nothing got done. By the end of the day, when I picked Shadow up to take him to Prince George (a 3 hour drive) the damage was done.

And now again I've experienced this misunderstanding with the rescue association.

While I carry the angst and the grief, these animals are by far the true sufferers. Thank God animals aren't capable of self-pity!

One last thing - even if such a perfect person existed, if they applied the rescue site would assume they were lying. (As they would be).

vona
November 23rd, 2006, 07:52 PM
Well, I guess this opens up another topic.

I was taught and understood in medical school and the residency that the 'buck stops with me'. It doesn't matter if I'm busy or overworked or even overwhelmed. If I take on a patient, that patient becomes my responsibility.

If someone laid a complaint against the College, my defense could not be "oh, I was just so busy, I had so much else to do".

Perhaps that's why I am such an advocate for my animals and any animal that eventually arrives here - I am totally responsible for what happens to any animal that arrives on this property.

Prin, you said something about if we didn't look good on paper, we wouldn't have gotten in. Well that's wrong. We had to prove volunteer work, we had 3 interviews with very harsh physicians who were looking for any reason to exlude us, we had to write an autobiography, we had to have many, respectible references. We had to have grades about 84%. I was a woman and when I applied, it was 1979. It was definately not all about paper and I know that perspective has even become more intense.

I wanted to be a vet. I got my Bachelor's degree in Zoology and I worked as a vet assistant. But, things take odd turns in life and I ended up applying to medical school. I was accepted the first time which was unusual because most people had to do qualifying years and apply 2-3 times. I hated medical school. I hated the fact that people were being referred to as "the liver in 252" and "the heart in 310". When I did my first elective in psychiatry, I felt honored to be able to sit with these people and hear their life stories. I finally got the opportunity to get to know my patients and I found my niche. I have never regreted this decision and at 54 I am happier than I ever was.

I am glad I didn't become a vet. Now, I have this practice and because of my income I can give my animals the best home possible. I don't have to euthanize them or be exposed directly to the abuse they may suffer. I can do the gentle things - give them a good home, good care, lots of love and all the things I can come up with that would make an animal happy.

I read a lot. I try to educate myself as to what each animal may need.

I'm not perfect. Noone is. For 13 years I had Shadow and I took very good care of him. It hurts me when people think I did something to expose him to danger. I take every precaution known to me to make sure my animals are safe.

But, one day, a neighbour came by on horseback with two of his kids on horseback. Around here everyone has horses and everyone rides. I make sure that when my patients come they only bring the dogs we can assure will get along with my dogs. Horses are frightened by llamas when they first meet them and I was out with my dogs, feeding. We do this every weekend. I was hospitable but I remember thinking that these were strange horses around my dogs. Before I knew it, one of neighbour's kids' horses reared when he saw the llamas. Poor Shadow was at the back end and the leg of the horse connected with Shadow's.

What is that saying? - "The best laid plans by mice or men". I don't know. I had Shadow for all of these years and then in just one swift moment our lives changed forever.

I carry the responsibility I feel towards my patients into my responsibility to my animals. I am responsible for what happened to Shadow. Just as I would be responsible for what happened to any dog I rescued.

Frenchy
November 23rd, 2006, 10:01 PM
ha ha ha real funny you guys http://bestsmileys.com/tongs/9.gif

CyberKitten
November 23rd, 2006, 10:06 PM
Prin, I have to disagree with this comment:

"First, you say you're a physician- what that means to the rest of the world is you are never home, when there is a specific demand for being home a LOT for this dog."

I am sure you mean well but your observation does not mean that (ie that phyicians are never home) in the world I live in. And if you do your research, you would know that the lifestyles of doctors are changing and many - esp women - choose specialties that give them more time. You do not need to do to the research - it is in many news articles about the need for more doctors. Would you say that to a doctor who has children? I do not want to get into some protracted debate but with all due respect, it is is discriminatory and judgemental to assume how others live. None of us has any idea about the lives and professions of others.

I am a physician and yes I work very long hours but I have three cats who get the best possible care and as you know, one is a certified therapy cat. I have several close friends who are physicians who have dogs who have the most wondcerful lives. I do not believe economic ability is the best indicator for pet "ownership" (I dont believe we really can "own" a living breathing creature tho such is the law of our land But that's another issue, lol)

I have also had dogs and they all enjoyed great lives.

I do think rescue centers need to examine one's lifestyle and that includes one's job but that is just one aspect of it. The vast majority of the population work long hours. My brother is a firefighter and has two dogs. It is not only doctors who work long hours. People lead busy lives regardless of their occupation - they volunteer, they have families- our lives are undoubtedly more complicated than our ancestors, unless of course we opt for some alterbative life style which some people do.

Some of us are also ill - or could become ill. Seniors do very well with senior pets for example. (Tho I am a strong proponent of people having living wills outlining how their pets will be cared for, in the same way they make arrangements for their children.)

My cats are like my children - my furbabies - and no rescue has ever told me my profession was a negative factor. Like any busy parent, I hire pet sitters if I have to be away. My Siamese comes to work with me and one of my best friends who is a GP brings her small dog to work on occasion. He too is a therapy dog.

I do not think anyone's occupation (I have seen homeless people who care for their pets better than themselves, better than some middle class "status" pets I have seen actually) should preclude them in an application process. Someone who travels a lot may need to make arrangements but most of us have families. Would you allow an adoption to a physician with a family yet not to one who lives alone? That is discrimination again because single people (I am not single, I share my life with someone) make excellent dog or cat or rabbit "owners".

Now, I would absolutely - as a rescue person - want to know how anyone, regardless of their profession - will care for their pet when they are away or busy - a fact that actually defines the majority of workers, minus the slackers of course or those who for whatever reason choose not to work or who cannot due to disability or some other factor.

I do think it should be akin to an adoption process but physicians are never singled out for such severe treatment by social service agencies when we choose to adopt. Nor should they be in the selection process by pet rescues. They should of course be assessed in the same way anyone with any other profession is - and if there are factors that make them unsuitable for a particular breed or dog or cat (Not all people for example should be approved for adoption by reputable breeders or rescues for Siamese cats for example- they are high maintenance and demand much attention but are loving and very people oriented in return. The same is true of many dog breeds. Not everyone can cope with high energy labs. There are many examples.)

We have several university students on this Board who seem to be excellent at caring for their pets (Puppyluv and Meb99 come to mind but you all know who you are) and I recall my days as a student and it was prob much busier than now. I guess without belabouring my point - in the end,. no one should be turned down for adoption of any animal solely on the basis of what they do for a living whether they are someone on minimum wage who has 3 other jobs to make ends meet or a physician who works the same number of hours a week.

What is important is how much knowledge they have about the breed they seek (or breeds of the dog or cat if it a mixed breed), whether they can care for the pet, how responsible they are, can they afford a pet, if they have children - how the animal would be integrated in the family, etc,etc. My best advice to rescue agencies would be to monitor the family, in the same way adoption agencies of human children do. Rather than scare people away from a needed thorough process, kindly explain why knowing so much info is important and then find a period of probation with home visits. Observing a pet in the context of a home is much more telling than sitting in an office with one person from the family - and they need to make sure everyone in the family wants a new member!!

I may get vitually yelled at for suggesting this (but I have broad shoulders, I have to - I have been shot at, am surviving cancer and other debilitated illnesses, debated some pompous politicians in public (Not all politicians are bad which is why I had to use that adjective, lol), among other things. But perhaps some rescue agencies can learn from reputable breeders who keep tabs on their cats and dogs for the rest of the animals' lives. That is one of the best indicators of a good breeder btw. It's not easy but if a group seeks to take responsibility for placing animals, they also must examine the ethics and governance of this work.

Anyway, nuff said. My point - in short - 95% of us are busy regardless of the work we do!! (and that includes unpaid work in the home or students) And agencies cannot afford to be judgemental and base adoptions on potential adoptees' occupation.

technodoll
November 23rd, 2006, 10:13 PM
cyberkitten... that is a whole lotta SENSE and i'm glad you took the time to write that :grouphug: it was lurking in the back of my head when reading this thread, but since i don't know much about rescues i didn't dare say anything... thank you for being a kind and educational voice :)

Frenchy
November 23rd, 2006, 10:20 PM
And agencies cannot afford to be judgemental and base adoptions on potential adoptees' occupation.

I never asked any future adopters what they did for a living. I don't think too many rescue do :shrug:

Prin
November 23rd, 2006, 11:54 PM
CK, who watches your pets when you have 48 hour shifts? I have an uncle who is a doctor and his family NEVER sees him. My own doctor starts work at 5AM and finishes wayyy after dark.

Doesn't mean they're bad people, just means they're not the ideal that the rescues are looking for- and they need extra people in their lives to look after their pets.

YES it is stereotyping, but I'm trying to explain it from the point of view of a person who has literally 3 seconds to decide whether or not you're right for that dog.

Honestly, CK, don't take everything so personally. Not everything is a direct attack on you.

I think, like you, they didn't read the whole thing.Exactly what I am trying to say. I did read your whole post and I saw all that, but I'm just saying what they probably saw that turned them off.

They don't have time or energy to mull over every applicant. If somebody looks great, they'll skip everybody they might have questions for for that person instead. Some rescues say they get upwards of 200 applications for each dog, especially puppies. WHY would they waste time on one they had any doubt about when they have dozens upon dozens of others?

That's my point. These people are like customs agents- they take one short glance at you and judge your whole life by that glance. :shrug:


We have several university students on this Board who seem to be excellent at caring for their pets (Puppyluv and Meb99 come to mind but you all know who you are) and I recall my days as a student and it was prob much busier than nowAnd if you look at most rescues' policies, most do not adopt to students either.

Same as I said above. Doesn't mean they're bad people who should not have pets. But if somebody fits the description we were joking about above, OBVIOUSLY the rescue will pick them.

And if a particular rescue has its stereotypes about doctors/students/whatever, they will pass over them too. That's ALL I'm saying. .:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm not dissing doctors or anybody. You ask me to put myself in your shoes- put yourself in a rescue's shoes.

vona
November 24th, 2006, 04:29 AM
[QUOTE=Prin;322560]CK
YES it is stereotyping, but I'm trying to explain it from the point of view of a person who has literally 3 seconds to decide whether or not you're right for that dog.

Well, if all you have is 3 seconds, you shouldn't be in the business of determining who is the best home for one of your animals.

And if that is all you have, you better make use of those seconds because it is the dog that will suffer in the end.

I think from now on I will deal with the S.P.C.A. and the breeders. I adopted two dogs from rescue sites and I didn't have a problem at all with them. It was this experience that has turned me off. If I contact a breeder they write me back, they TALK to me. If I contact the S.P.C.A. (given and understood that here in Williams Lake, they know me) I KNOW that I will get honest and upfront information.

What a shame. While rescue sites may hope to find the best home for their dogs, this latest experience has turned me completely off from even trying to deal with them.

For the dog in question, I feel sad. I do think about where he is going to go and how is life is going to turn out. I'm not saying that I am the best home - I just know that I could have and would have done everything to make him happy and healthy.

There are so many animals out there that need rescue. I wish this particular resuce site who is trying to adopt out their dogs would have some sense of balance.

As a psychiatrist, I see all the time how people are misjudged and misunderstood. So many others think that just because they come to a psychiatrist, they must be defective in some way. Such a falacy! Those who come are the ones who are devoted to their mental health - they WANT to change.

If all people can do is to give 3 seconds of their time, they are going to make mistakes. I see examples of that all the time.

Animals can't speak for themselves. It takes us to speak for them. I tried to speak for this dog and just like what some of my patients experience, negative assumptions were made.

Honest to God, it is just such a shame.

Pike
November 24th, 2006, 09:29 AM
This thread has run it's course and will now be closed. Please do not reopen this topic in another thread.