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Petition: Anybody want to sign?

Prin
March 8th, 2006, 08:04 PM
It's about preserving forests in Quebec. I got it last week, just before the government sold Orford (an area of protected land with a ski resort on it) to "private developers". :(
There's a little slide show of stats here: http://www.ondortcommeunebuche.com/en/index.htm

But the petition is here: http://www.ondortcommeunebuche.com/en/petition/index.asp or at the end of the show (just in case you wanted to skip it).

wdawson
March 8th, 2006, 08:43 PM
i signed but being in ontario will probably not count for much.......it is sad when green space gets gobbled up for development.......today a forest and fields next week a housing subdivision,its to the point that all cities are only seperated by a sign,atleast here anyway.

CyberKitten
March 8th, 2006, 09:24 PM
I would sign if I lived in Quebec even tho having worked for a politician, I know how much petitions are worth.If you are serisouly concerned with this issue, YOU need to write your own letter to your MNA, with cc to the Premier and to the Minister responsible. And maybe include copies to select newspapers. That will go 10,000 times farther than your signature on any petition no matter hiw many sigs there on it. Politicians HATE and LOATHE petitions. They typically are photo op sessions for opposition politicians and the effective lobbyist organizations use them sparingly - only for the occasional photo op. No politician as the time or the staff (esp at the prov level) to go tru every name and they just sort of file them. Sad but true. A letter now is an entirely different matter - it has a name and address, a VOTER who must be addressed. And they will check to see if you voted so if you did not vote, don't bother to write. You'll get the thank you for writing letter but if you voted, you will get the thank you voting letter plus more.

I honestly do not understand why people do petitions!!! It boggles my mind. Ovvasionally, some group who is great at using the media will get their petition noticed and THAT will be noted but just a petition - I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I worked as an EA for a Leader of a political party - and petitions are not considered that significant.

Also, the petition only counts if the people who sign it can vote for the MNA in querstion - better of you can get people in the Minister who is repsonsible's riding to sign (ask them first iof they voted). I always look to see if someone voted when looking at petitions and I figure if they could not bother to taje the time to vote but they signed a petition, they are not worthy of my time. Voting is soooo much more important!!!!!

Parties know who voted becuase we - and yes, I belong and hold a position in a piolitical party - recieve the voters' lists and each party is allowed to have an agent at eac poll on election day. As people vote, their names are crossed off the list. It is really how we know how to geto ut the vote - the more important of its usefulness - but it's also helpful when someone comes seeking hekp when they could not even bother to vote and I have no time for any opne who cannot support our democrcy by voting. I agree with Australia - there should be a penalty for people who fail to vote! Think of all the women on this, International Women's Day who fough for women's right to vote!!!!

That is the way our system works and until we change it, we need to work on both extra parliamentary and intraparliamentary levels - if one does not agree with the current past the post system (Personally, I;d like to see something like Ireland's proprtional rep system but this will be an interesting debate to come for us I think)

Cathy1
March 8th, 2006, 09:33 PM
I think some petitions work, but there are some that don't. For example, there was a petition to save a large part of forest in the very far north of Ontario. It didn't work and now the land has been sold to a logging company in the U.S. If this keeps up there will be no forest for anyone to enjoy.

CyberKitten
March 8th, 2006, 09:58 PM
I have never seen a petition work with forests sadly - and I am a small woodlot owner. The crown lands and forest legislation of the various provinces are all different and some allocate more rights to the companies so it is a complicated process. You can appeal to the govt but if they have allowed the company to cut the forests for x number of years there is almost nothing they can do. In that case, an environmental group must resort to working with the company - you start with the positive stuff, meeting with the CEO's and PR people (my dad used to be CEO of a foresty co - it is an industry I know more than I care to about, sigh - and even my dad who loved his work is no fan is some of their clearcutting pratices!!) but that usually does not work so you have to utilize the media in a very savvy maner to shame them into giving the peple some of the land. The Minister of Natural Resources camn usually also put pressure on it if need be. (and if the political will is there). Sometimes you also have to deal; with the labour movement who think you are out to get their jobs. Finally, I think the BC tactics that saved some of the old growth forest there worked - and that was hard slogging, radical demonstrations where people had to be prepared to be arrested. Or like the toung woman who resfued to come down from thet redwood in Oregon or Washington state - a good environmentalist in training imho! So with a company like Wyenheuer or Bowater or any of those large US companies, they could care less about petitions, Many of them are already blackmailing the govt for power rate deceases and making demands of once pwoerful pup and paper worker unions. That said, that industry is in dire straits in North America mainly because they can get cheaper labour in other parts of the world, It might save some of our forests but ensure poverty or the loss of entire communities. I think the real solution is to be sensible and for an enviornmental gropup to use every tactic possible but also provide an alterbate economic development plan that diversifies the economy - if you notoce, most pulp and paper mills - whether newsprint or kraft mills or specalty paper - tend to be in one resource indurty communities and the other indutry in the region (like chemical plants - chlor-alkali for ex) are supportive of them and it is sort of a vertical integeation business model. My dad';s company tends to use a lot of vertical integration - you own paper mills, newspapers, tissue manufatuerers, home maufacturers, home and construction builder stores - they all support one another, A tried and trie biz model. But we are being outprized another section of the world. The envirnmentalist wants me to cheer but the humanitarian in me wants people to have good paying jobs and not to starve and to yell at my own political party to diversify the ^%$ economy already since call center jobs simply do not compete with industrial jobs they replace. (As in $30-35 an hr in the paper co - starting) to min wage or $11- $15 at good places. Plus, it is a new world for unions out there.

In NB, there was one mill that shut down simply because its main market had beem Kodak which of course - because of the use of the digital camera - did not need that kind of paper abny longer. It almost destroyed an entiore community and many older people even lost their pensions!!!! There is still a court case over that and the govt is wooing another company that looks like it may start another busisess with the facility but it is a fast changing world and a petition to a CEO of Bowater in Georgia means nothing. They barely listen to our govts.

I do wish the people in Quebec all the best but I hope they have more tactics up their sleeves than just this peition!!!!! They need to involve Daniel Green, an environmentalist par excellence of the Sierra Club but if I know him, he prob already is.

Prin
March 8th, 2006, 11:25 PM
Doesn't hurt to try.

jiorji
March 9th, 2006, 04:54 PM
I have never seen a petition work with forests sadly -

yeah they do work.

back in Ontario they were going to cut through this whole forest/natural preservation area to make some sort of bridge to connect some streets. And every house in the neighbourhood got a letter urging people to sign a petition or to send letters to the mayor. And it actually worked. The plans to build the bridge were cancelled. They eventually declared the area protected after that.

anyways...I signed the Quebec forest petition

CyberKitten
March 9th, 2006, 06:58 PM
That was a municipal issue - I was referring to one like this, where provincial action is needed. Municipal politicains are closer to people. Not to be contrarian, lol - just what I have seen. And yeah, I would still try it, well I would not - other than at a local level - but I don't want to discourage you. I jyst know prov politicians - unless they are opposition ones and it helps them get a photo op - hate pettions. Maybe I have said too much, I don't know but I do know how this system works. It does not mean I agree - just that this is the way of the world in politics, prov and fed. I would dign but it would do no good - I do not vote in Quebec.

I admittedlyt did not look at the petition but is this the one near Magog and near Jean Charest's riding - it seems that has already been sttled except for the legal cases by the people who donated the forst land and if they get it back, the govt has said they will make them pay millions in back taxes (because if you donate land , it is a trust and a tax benefit). Is this the one???

A peition won't help that - you have to get to Jean Charest in person and fast!!! IF this is the one.

Prin
March 9th, 2006, 08:52 PM
I don't know why you have to keep bashing it CK. We get your point. You don't believe they work. Maybe other people do. And it really doesn't hurt to try. Why not? It's 1 minute out of a person's day, and if it does help, yey for us.

jesse's mommy
March 9th, 2006, 09:08 PM
I signed it. Took less than a minute.

Prin
March 10th, 2006, 12:52 AM
Thanks, Jesse's Mommy.:) Florida is Quebecers' home away from home, so maybe that will make a difference.:)

The way I see it, the WWF endorses this petition, and they won the one about drilling in the arctic, so who knows?:fingerscr

CyberKitten
March 10th, 2006, 06:11 AM
I am not bashing it- I am a very committed environmentalist who has fought many of these wars so am tryong gto give you some ideas that really really work. I have gone the route of petitions and am just trying to give you my experience which I thought you would enjoy and appreciate. It was very hard for me and I learrned the hard way - I guess maybe we all have to ;) I always say this about petitions- you know that, lol I know how they work. I commend you for trying but maybe you coud demonstrate and I do hope you have done other things to stop this,. I know I have - I have demonstrated, donated money, written more letters than I can count, lobbied politicians , sued companies (They hate lawsuits much worse than pettiions let me tell you , lol (and I was a uni student at the time, mabe young and foolish but we won!!!), formed colations, started an envionrmentl groups, blockjed the entrance to a mtn that was threatened - that is WHY I know petitions never worked for me, IT takes oh so much more. I jjsut hope you are doing all that - and wish I was younger, lol