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One good thing about the bird-flu scare!

chico2
March 5th, 2006, 05:17 PM
I was watching the news from France(TV5) and they were advicing anyone with dogs or cats not to let them outside unsupervised.
One cat died in Germany from a bird he killed.
Hopefully if people care enough,now they'll now take better care of their animals.

Prin
March 5th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Here's hoping people learn! :fingerscr

Stewart
March 6th, 2006, 01:48 AM
Hi ! I dont quite follow your meaning :confused: I live but a stones throw really from europe and the English channel isnt going to save us from this thing like it did from a certain German problem a while back. We have two cats who love to go exsplore our nearby countryside and they do this unsupervised as we dont take them walkies like we do our dog. I dont like them killing birds just for the fun of it and if I see them stalking in our immidiate garden I make sounds or spoil the episode. However I do still find dead birds they catch and for them its thier life to be hunting.

gomez
March 6th, 2006, 06:39 AM
Maybe because you guys are not quite so close to the flu? I don't see any good things about this bird flu at all...

We walk Gomez in the park every day, and although he is now on a leash all the time, the stuff could be anywhere - it's really more than a little worrying!

Dogs in a fenced in back yard could kill a bird just as easily as a cat roaming a field...

chico2
March 6th, 2006, 08:20 AM
Don't get me wrong,the Avian Flu is a very scary thing,mostly for the birds and the spreading into Europe was inevitable and probably soon Canada:sad:and unless China and other countries start rethinking how they handle live-stock,this will keep happening.
However,my cats do not roam,I strongly believe no cats should,anymore than dogs.Especially with a deadly disease out there.
I suppose it depends where you live,where I live there are many more dangers than bird-flu for a little cat
But that's another topic:pawprint:

rivers
March 6th, 2006, 11:50 AM
Just remember different country, different lifestyle. Where I grew up, there was, and is, no such thing as an 'indoor' cat, and male dogs don't get neutered, unless for aggression reasons. When first moving to Canada, we were puzzled why the cats never got to set their paws on the grass or smell a flower, or why bunnies go for a walk on a leash!

chico2
March 6th, 2006, 12:59 PM
My cats go outside every day,I have a large fenced in yard,but never alone..no leashes and they are perfectly happy to go inside after a while.Cats are trainable too,if you start them as kittens.
Yes,they'd love catching birds,but I always manage to prevent it from happening,since I also love birds.
In the summer they are out with us most of the day.
We have evolved(I hope)from the day,when cats were replacable like old shoes,one dies,get another.
Many cats now,with good care live to be 18-20 yrs old and that is what I am hoping mine will:love:
As far as Europe,I too am European(Swedish)and I had a cat growing up,outdoor,not neutered,died at the tender age of 2 from a neighborhood kids kick!!

Prin
March 6th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Dogs in a fenced in back yard could kill a bird just as easily as a cat roaming a field...
I'm having a hard time picturing this... I think it would be a rare dog who could catch a bird in a fenced in yard... Maybe the yard in my thoughts is smaller than the one in yours (and the dog in my thoughts is probably a lot clumsier too...).:D

Writing4Fun
March 6th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Maybe the yard in my thoughts is smaller than the one in yours (and the dog in my thoughts is probably a lot clumsier too...).:D
Must be the case. Yards in my neighbourhood are 1/2 acre fenced, usually with lots of greenery and a shed or two, plenty of space and coverage for a dog to stalk an unsuspecting bird. I know Phoebe's come pretty close a couple of times. :eek:

Prin
March 6th, 2006, 03:49 PM
Back yards in my area are about 1000 to 2000 square feet. Just enough for Jemma and Boo to get up some speed running in circles.:D

chico2
March 6th, 2006, 04:31 PM
How's this for ignorance?I did not even think dogs would try to catch birds:D
I have 3 birdfeeders and my cats love to lay just under them,but I shoo them away from there.
Here's the only bird Rocky ever caught,an already frozen stiff Mourning Dove he found under the deck last winter,but he was very,very proud:D

chico2
March 6th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Oh well,here's the pic:D

Prin
March 6th, 2006, 08:34 PM
I love that pic. I get the point of this thread though. I've seen what happens to cats who roam free- boring or not, an indoor kitty won't break a hip getting kicked by an angry neighbor, or get crushed under the wheels of a car..:eek: And my dogs will never catch a bird ever, so it's not a concern for me, but their safety is always a concern.:)

happycats
March 6th, 2006, 08:49 PM
I get the point too Chico:)
And I never let my cats out free, and I don;t feel like they are being deprived in any way! We do have a large caged area, off of one of the basement windows, that allows the cats to go out>

melanie
March 6th, 2006, 09:50 PM
obviously not a real big issue here in oz, not enough migratory birds here in the bush and too much space to really worry, so were not overly fretful. BUT i think its brilliant that ppl must keep pets closer, if it takes the flu to get animals inside and monitored then thats a bit of good out of a bad situation.... not to mention the miriad of birds that will no longer be subject to predation on such a level, sorry but i hate the fact that many cats kill my native birds many of which are endangered themselves and need all the help they can get.

its easy to say a cat needs to hunt birds, but what if my dog wanted to hunt cats, would that not be an issue either??? no domestic animal should be allowed to hunt, its not fair and often the hunter is at a mjr advantage in the environment.

and if you could see the kookaburras laughing at my big cumbersome dog when she chases them from the yard, literally the birds walk away from her and sit on the fence laughing, not a big issue really.... iom sure some dogs could, liek a fast JRT but really its not that great a prob. i think the issue is dogs eating remains that could be infected, now theres a biggie...

hope your all safe from it, and if youve got chickens then you really should be worried......they need great protection at this stage in the game.....

Prin
March 6th, 2006, 11:03 PM
no domestic animal should be allowed to hunt, its not fair and often the hunter is at a mjr advantage in the environment.I've said that before (not with the sexy aussie accent though). We're feeding our pets. The birds and small animals outside are generally feeding themselves and are not really expecting an energy loaded predator. Wild predators are usually a lot skinnier and scragglier than our house pets.

Skryker
March 7th, 2006, 12:38 AM
So, so many reasons to keep cats indoors-for their own sake and for the local small animals. We used to have lots of birds in my neighbourhood, until the local outdoor cat population exploded. Now, we have few birds at all. At least I don't find piles of blue jay feathers on my doorstep anymore. Major torn loyalties-I love cats and felt keenly for the feral cats, found as many homes as I could for them, cried buckets over the inevitable causualities, fed and doctored as much as I could;but, I really miss my jays and doves. And squirrels. And having shots because you took a baby squirrel away from a cat is not fun. Especially when the squirrel died anyways:sad: .

gomez
March 7th, 2006, 05:42 AM
I'm having a hard time picturing this... I think it would be a rare dog who could catch a bird in a fenced in yard... Maybe the yard in my thoughts is smaller than the one in yours (and the dog in my thoughts is probably a lot clumsier too...).:D

If we let him, Gomez could catch a bird in a 15 x 20 space, maybe not a hummingbird, but a goose, a swan, a peacock, pigeon? they would be toast, and all these birds will get bird flu as well, and they roam free in our park, across the street...

And what about dogs that are not allowed to roam, even in their own fenced in back yard, but are out for a walk, on a short leash, on a street, and they pick up bird droppings?

My point is, short of keeping him inside 24 hours a day, what are we supposed to do? bird flu is a REAL and very scary problem, so I see absolutey nothing good about it... nothing. Sorry to disagree.

chico2
March 7th, 2006, 08:28 AM
Gomez,I never meant birdflu is a"good"thing,maybe my wording was not right:confused:
It is however a wakeup call to the world,I am sure it originated from unsanitary conditions etc..in some far away corner in China.
2 more cats were found dead this time in Austria,I am sure there are thousands more not discovered.
If you care for your animals,be they cats/dogs or chickens,you do everything you can to protect them.

Melanie,I agree,I chose to have cats,it's my responsability to make sure they do not harm anything else or anybody else,or get harmed themselves.
They belong to me and I love them very much,I would not let them roam any more than I would let a 2yr old child roam free.

Prin
March 7th, 2006, 10:58 AM
And what about dogs that are not allowed to roam, even in their own fenced in back yard, but are out for a walk, on a short leash, on a street, and they pick up bird droppings?

My point is, short of keeping him inside 24 hours a day, what are we supposed to do? bird flu is a REAL and very scary problem, so I see absolutey nothing good about it... nothing. Sorry to disagree.
There is a difference between the unavoidable contacts on daily walks etc and leaving a dog alone to kill birds without any supervision or reaction. If you leave your dog outside for hours on end alone, he's probably at a much higher risk of anything- bird flu, poisoning, escaping etc- than a dog who is always supervised.

The point here is if there is anything positive about bird flu, it's that people might be more careful with their house pets, where they go and how much unsupervised time they get. That's all. There is a bright side to everything, no matter how horrible.

Stewart
March 7th, 2006, 01:00 PM
I dont agree that all cats should be kept to your own backyard or garden as we call them over here. We have had cats for a long time the first pair managed to live to 18yrs and of the pair we have right now the senior one is 16. We have always allowed them to roam as they wish with no collars to get snagged up. All of our cats have been chipped and nutured, Defleed and wormed regulary. I can understand owners who live in built up areas having house cats but not out in the countryside. To say that it means owners are more careing by keeping them fenced in is an opinion I dont agree with, sorry. And as for dogs catching birds there is a West Highland Terrier who regulary catches birds in the garden a few doors down from me. As for the bird flu its a very scary scenario for our poultry farmers and all folk involved with animals as well as pet owners.

jjgeonerd
March 7th, 2006, 04:04 PM
I'm having a hard time picturing this... I think it would be a rare dog who could catch a bird in a fenced in yard... Maybe the yard in my thoughts is smaller than the one in yours (and the dog in my thoughts is probably a lot clumsier too...).:D

The dog I had growing up (dane/pitt/?? mix) used to catch Sparrows every so often. He would sit and watch them eat out of his food dish for hours...then he'd jump up and grab one.

I don't think he actually meant to kill them though. He would just nose them trying to get them to move after he initially grabbed them, and he never ate them. Then he'd put them in his water dish. Weird dog sometimes, but he was great.

gomez
March 8th, 2006, 05:26 AM
Sorry guys, you are not going to convince me that there is a silver lining to this bird flu - nothing good about it at all, chico, you said in title of this thread "one good thing" I just don't see it...

You could have every pet owner in the land being extremely cautious and you could still end up with dead dogs and cats -

Lets talk again when pets are dying 2 hours away from you, and not across the pond...

happycats
March 8th, 2006, 07:34 AM
You must admit, that because of bird flu, conditions for livestock will have to improve! I see that as a good thing.

More education, for people with livestock, on how to properly care for and house animals, more sanitary conditions and vaccinations for them. I see this as a "good thing" for all livestock animals and owners!

This is like a wake up call to the world, and must be taken very seriously!!
Not only are our livestock threatened but Our entire wild bird population may be adversely affected!

chico2
March 8th, 2006, 08:51 AM
Happycats,very well said,that's what I was trying to say:pawprint:
Gomez,since you are living with the danger,there is even more reason for you to protect your pets.
As it was with Mad cow,the West Nile virus,the animals are paying the price for human mistakes.
I can see in the not too far future,oceans empty of fish,most birds extinct,the beauty of tigers,lions,elephants etc..will be seen only in books.I know I am jumping the gun and I will most likely not be around to see it,but it's way past time to look at what we humans are doing wrong and correct it.
West Nile hit my area quiet severely,I had 7 semi-tame crows only one survived,Chickadees,Finches were gone,but are slowly making a come-back,now the Avian flu,it just saddens me:sad:

jesse's mommy
March 8th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Where I used to live in Maryland, there were 10 chicken farms two years ago that tested positive for the bird flu. One of the chicken farms was on the way to one of my stores. I saw and smelled the effect of the sanitizing stages. Everyone that was on the property had a hazmat suit on and they were burning everything -- including the chickens which was such a wonderful smell. These farmers literally had to start over. It's a tough thing to witness, but it definitely taught these people a lesson about taking shortcuts on things. That's what triggered it with most of these farmers that came down with the flu. Fortunately, they caught it before other animals were affected and able to spread it, but it was still scary enough. It made me keep a closer eye on Jesse -- just in case because you never know. It really is an eye opener and I know a lot of people did watch their animals more closely. So yes, I did deal with it and it wasn't two hours from my house, it was 20 minutes and it did open my eyes and those around me who care for their pets. But unfortunately, there were "country bumpkins" who didn't care because animals were animals and they could just get another. :sad: Which truly angers and saddens me. Gomez, I know what you are talking about, but if people do care for their pets, trust me, it's an eye opener for them. It's a good thing in a bad way if that makes any sense.

CyberKitten
March 8th, 2006, 01:03 PM
I don't see any good at all in the avian flu and we in Canada are not at all prepared for it contrary to what you hear on the news. Family docs might well be the main entry point for many ppl for info and there is not even a database in this country of every doctor!!! Just look what happened with Sars and we lucked out there. I shudder at the thought and think 1918 all ov er again. It is a question of when , not if. But we may be prepared in time, but we need to do so much more, ALL of us!!

That said I agree with Chico. At least people in Europe may keep their cats inside now. I most vehamentaly disagree with the traddition in England and many parts of Europe of free roaming cats. The average outdoor cats lives much less longer than the safe indoor kitty and while anectodal evidence is fine for some, scientifically, it tells me only that you must have extraordinary cats because they are way from the norm. There are far too many dangers out there to allow cats to roam.

The other danger I fear is the what occured with Sars when China startedto kil lall the Sivet Cats in sight. Sio anyone in Europe better be prepared that if they have free roaming cats, they could be in for a nasty surprise if the Dept of Heakth decides domestic cats need culling - and it could very well happened. It has already been discussed at the highst levels there and here. It is so easy for bureacrats to say kill all the birds and the cats and we'll be OK but that of course is nonsense.

So anyone anywhere for God's sake, have some sense and keep your cat indoor, The next case oif flu caused by a cat in Europe could cause a massacre - that is what I worry about. It is bad enough there are cars, latrger animals, bunchers - and labs in England get most of their test subjects from pets since pets are so easy to work with - , nasty people and on and on. Now we have the powers that be looking at cats as carriers of a deadly disease!! Anyone who can proove their cat has never been outdoors unsupervised will be fine - anyone else's cat could well be taken in by the authorities.

I never ket my cats roam - there are not big fans of the outdoors anyway - YY with her short haor and the others with almost none - but they do like the stroller, lol

Serisouly, I think anyone who allows their cat to roam is asking for trouble and is not being responsible for the rest of us. (and other cats!!!). The EU and other authorities Like WHO have recommended that anyone with a domestic cat in Europe keep their pet indoors. In Germany, cat shelters have been inundated with "owners" giving up their cats and surrendering them to shelters out of fear for the vuius. (See the NYTimes, March 3) I quote " Hundreds of Germans have left their cats at shelters since the country recorded the first case in the European Union of a cat dying of bird flu, the animal welfare society said Thursday."

It won't be too long before any cat found wandering along will suffer the same fate and don;t assume it will not happen. I think of Helen Caldicatt's book "If You Love this Planet" and while she can be a bit alarmist about nuclear war, this is kind of the beginning of "If you Love your Cat!".
Did anyone evetr think civit cats would be killed in such numbers. I shudder to think of the future.