Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Reason to fear or not

Rottielover
February 2nd, 2006, 09:30 AM
:sad: :sad: :sad: He guys. I have a serious problem. And I am concerned. Lets start by telling you what happend.

Last night Harley met up with one of his friends. All was great playing well. Then another dog came into the picture, normally all 3 dogs play well. Well the 3rd dog was pestering Harleys friend to the point that he lunged at whatever was closest to him. Well poor harley was in the cross fire. You could tell Harley was just defending himself, he was trying to walk away while growling at the other dog to stop. Well his friend would not stop. Finally Harley had enough of being attacked, he fought back, and Bad, he took the other dogs leg in his mouth and shook, Alot.

With all this being said, I grabbed Harleys collar to calm him down, some idiot went to pick up the dog that lunged at harley. Needles to say he was bit in the hand,( not by Harley) but he managed to get him up. Then out of the blue Harley bit his leg again. This time, since I had his collar, he did not do damage.

I know the people well who owns the dog that has been hurt, I am taking them to the vet, and will pay for visit and for antibiotics need be.

Should I feel as if my dog went crazy. Or did he have every right to defend himself from a dog that litterally hanging on to his neck.

The owners are not mad, they know it was their dog that started this whole mess, they could not get him off.

What do I do, how do I feel.

Needless to say we will not be playing with them again, knowing that he will actually fight back now, and not take it. Do I keep him away from all dogs in general. He really does have a playful and sweet disposition.. After he calmed down from the fight, he wanted to play again. NON aggressive. I did not let him



Feed back, advice please

BMDLuver
February 2nd, 2006, 09:52 AM
He's only doing what comes naturally to him. I assume the other dog was a male? and the one being pestered a female? If that's the dynamic, then Harley decided enough already and made his point clear. Would I put him in another situation like that, definitely not. Would I still allow playdates with other dogs, most definitely. It's crucial to keep Harley well socialised or you can forget about showing him or having him around your daughter. I would just do one on one playdates so that the situation can be more readily controlled. JMHO.

Rottielover
February 2nd, 2006, 10:07 AM
He has been well socialized, and the dynamic was male male and male. the third dog was not being pestered, he was doing the pesturing to the point it got harleys friend pissed off, that is what started it. I am not showing Harley, But my daughter will always be around. He hasn't changed his personality at of people or my daughter. Just he finally said I am defending myself.
I am not disapointed in my dog, I am disapointed in me, that i did not pull him out when I saw he friend being pestured. I am also to blame.
The owners of the dog that got hurt were not able to pull ozzie off from Harley. I now feel Harley flipped because I had his collar. Bad move on my part I now know that.
We will only do 1 on 1 again, whether it be male or female.

Lucky Rescue
February 2nd, 2006, 11:00 AM
Dogs get into fights, and when people let dogs loose together, that's a chance they take. I see nothing at all wrong with Harley's behavior.

I am taking them to the vet, and will pay for visit and for antibiotics need be.

Why? This person took the chance as well with his off leash dog, and didn't even do anything to prevent a fight when his dog was initiating it.

It's not as if Harley went unto his property and attacked his dog.

Rottielover
February 2nd, 2006, 11:10 AM
I feel responsible because harley did do the damage to this dog.

HunterXHunter
February 2nd, 2006, 11:11 AM
I agree with Lucky Rescue. If it wasn't Harley that initiated the fight, and was just defending himself, then I don't think you should pay for the other dog's medical expen$e$. It's sort of like paying the medical bills of a guy that tried to rob you and you fought back and kicked his @ss ;)

poodletalk
February 2nd, 2006, 11:23 AM
I understand how RottieLover feels, my female husky was involved in fight with a male scottie dog. The scottie dog was trying to hump her, the owner of the scottie dog did nothing, I called Maggie to come to me, but the Scottie kept pestering her then it turned into a fight, her first fight!

I was yelling, trying to pull Maggie off the Scottie, but the Scottie was tough he kept coming back for more. I was yelling at the owner to do something with her dog, finally she called him.

Maggie didn't do any harm to the Scottie, but if she did, I would have taken the responsibilty.

Rottielover
February 2nd, 2006, 11:37 AM
That is exactly why I feel I should help pay. My dog could have( if he wanted to) killed the other dog. He did not, nor did he bite the hand that seperated them, the other dog did. BUT Harley did do the damage, at least I can do is offer, and never take Harley back, for both Harley and my sake.
Oh ya back to OB class he goes, starting the week of Feb 20. I am not going to have to deal with something like this again

poodletalk
February 2nd, 2006, 12:04 PM
There was a fight once at the dogpark, a german shepherd mix against a little bichon. The bichon started, the german shepherd wanted nothing to do with the bichon, but the bichon kept pestering.

Finally, she got on the nerves of the German shepherd and the German Shepherd bite her and did some serious harm. The owner of the German Shepherd just walked away, she didn't ask if the bichon was fine or offered to pay any of the vet bill.

Since that day, everyone at the dogpark lost respect of the owner of the German Shepherd, we don't blame the German Shepherd, but the owner should have just simply asked if the dog was ok.

Also since that day, the bichon wears a muzzle to the park, this wasn't the fist time she pestered bigger dogs to the point of fighting. It was the first time she got hurt, the owner of the bichon realized it and took the responsibity.

Luvmypit
February 2nd, 2006, 02:27 PM
Oh rottielover Im so sorry you had to go through this. HArley too!

I think I would feel to take some responsibilty at least offer to pay half maybe not whole if I felt capone really only defended himself.
I also think you should just keep it it one on one for a while at least. Hey you learnt from it right? Next time you will do some things different and maybe some the same. As for Harley hes such a good guy I wouldn't worry too much.

Prin
February 3rd, 2006, 12:31 AM
Actually, since your dog undoubtedly did the damage, you are liable and you should pay if anything just so it never comes back to haunt you. When it comes down to he said/she said, all that matters is who got hurt by whom, not the context. Sucks, but that's how it works at a dog park. You're responsible for your dog's teeth regardless.

If your dog is getting bullied, you should step in right away and help your dog. You don't wait till they are willing to kill the bully. You should have broken it all up way sooner.

The fact that he did it again after you broke it up tells me you shouldn't be in dog parks at all yet. Your dog doesn't respect you enough at the dog park. Your dog can get in a little argument or scrap here and there when he doesn't get along with somebody, but twice in a matter of minutes means he knows you are helpless to stop him till he's done his damage. Very dangerous in a dog park.

Three dogs in a park is a pack, and you have to be the leader of all three if you want to control the situation. You can't count on other owners to help- most of the time they don't.

NEVER EVER grab one dog only. NEVER! Either both have to be free or both restrained. Never one restrained and the other free. That is one of the most dangerous situations for the humans and the dogs. Being restrained is a submissive or vulnerable position among the other dogs and you don't get to decide your dog's position in a dog park. If you do, and you make the dog submissive to another dog that he is definitely dominant over, you get a situation like you got. Harley has to show that even if he's restrained, he's still top dog.

But, ya, I'd pay the bill. Definitely.

Prin
February 3rd, 2006, 12:40 AM
Dogs get into fights, and when people let dogs loose together, that's a chance they take. I see nothing at all wrong with Harley's behavior.I disagree with this. The above situation wasn't a regular fight. The shaking rarely happens at a dog park, and it is actually quite rare for a dog to get seriously injured too. Most of the time in good parks, the owners stop everything before the escalation occurs. The only thing is, at a dog park, like I said, you take on the responsibility for other people's dogs too. If a chi is humping Boo relentlessly, I'm not going to wait till either the owner reacts or Boo kills the dog. I'm going to go remove the dog before anything happens- for the chi's safety and to never put Boo in a position where he is responsible for something horrible.

Even if it's two dogs that are not mine- if I see something about to escalate, I'll stop it and warn the owners. The minute a situation looks like it's on the verge of being out of control (i.e. you can't call your dog back easily), you step in and end it. Most of the regulars in the dog parks I have been to have the same sort of unwritten rule. And if you stop it before the escalation, you have very little chance of being bitten because they're both still in play mode or whatever.
nuff said.:o

Rottielover
February 3rd, 2006, 07:21 AM
ok, we went to the vet...It was not as serious, all it was is 2 little punture wounds and some bruising. It looked way worse than it was.
As for stepping in. If you have EVER seen a dog fight it can happen withins seconds, also with no body language. Prin, you were not there, so do not judge. I have learned never again to trust even a familiar dog with him. Now knowing that if another bullies him, he will defend himself.
I was grabbing onto Harley as the other person was grabbing onto the other one. But the other one got loose and attacked again, so that is when I let him go again.
Too hard to explain. The only thing I did wrong was trust an old dog friend. And I grabbed him from the collar. Which I could have been seriously hurt by either dog.
The owner took full responsibity that her dog went nuts, Harley did what he had to. The shaking. To let you know that is how rotties fight. They have prey dive.
Do not judge the fact my dog does not respect me. Oh yes he does. HE protected his own ass. Things escalated because the other owner could not grab her dog. Harley came back when called, her dog then lead to attack him. So My dog was not at fault.....

poodletalk
February 3rd, 2006, 08:18 AM
When your dog is friendly with all dogs and has an easy going nature, you don't expect it to fight. When my dog fought with the Scottie, I knew he was pestering her, that is why I called her, did I think for one minute she would turn around and fight NO!

Till this day, when she see's a little dog that looks like the Scottie, she starts growling and her ears go back, it's like she's on prey mode. After that fight, it has changed her and me, I know never to trust her with small dogs.

Do I allow her to still socialize with other dogs, ofcourse, but I am exteremly careful and I watch her like a hawk, just incase there's the slightest change in her body language.

RotiteLover, take what happened as a learning experience and be thankful that no serious harm was done.

t.pettet
February 3rd, 2006, 01:15 PM
Stepping in when a fight starts is not a good idea. These dogs should be allowed to assert who ever is more dominant and sort it out themselves. Have never seen severe damage or death, the strongest will normally just pin or inflict enough pain to establish his superiority. Even a tiny chi has to be shown by other canines that some behaviour is unappropriate and a good-natured larger dog will only inflict enough power to get his message across that he's had enough pestering. Early puppy socialization is sooo important and allows the pup to test-out his strength.

Lucky Rescue
February 3rd, 2006, 01:20 PM
Most of the time in good parks, the owners stop everything before the escalation occurs

"Most of the time" obviously isnt' good enough, judging by the number of fights and injuries at dog parks posted on this board alone.

It only takes one bite from a big dog to kill or cripple a small dog, and this is a chance people agree to take if they want to frequent dog parks.

Bushfire2000
February 3rd, 2006, 02:15 PM
This isn't a dog park story but it is a dog fight story.
I took my 6lb Lacey camping when she was a puppy we ,my husband two boys, Lacey and I, walked past a campsite and a cocker spaniel came runnig out teeth bared and howling like a fiend. Lacey was bewildered and scared. This cocker was tied with a rope and there were five or six people in the campsite sitting around the fire visiting. The rope/tie on this dog was long enough for the dog to run across the roadway and halfway into the campsite across. I had spotted the rope and assumed that the dog would be brought up short well before the road and be unable to reach us. Lacey went down and I was barely able to scoop her up out of the way (which I probably shouldn't have done because it put me in the way of the cockers teeth but you don't think of it at the time) These people didn't even say sorry or in any way admit that they were at fault. Lacey was unhurt but to this day hates dogs she doesn't know. She poor thing is not going to be one of those dogs that you meet in the pet store, dog park, agility trials or visiting the nursing home.

I think you have done the right thing with Harley and I'm very sorry that you and he had to go through that.

Lucky Rescue
February 3rd, 2006, 04:22 PM
These dogs should be allowed to assert who ever is more dominant and sort it out themselves

That is very bad advice. I guess you've never seen a serious dog fight with broken limbs, ripped up throats, flanks or severe/life threatening puncture wounds.

ONE serious bite and shake from an Akita sent my last dog to surgery and a long recovery period.

Prin
February 3rd, 2006, 04:35 PM
As for stepping in. If you have EVER seen a dog fight it can happen withins seconds, also with no body language. Prin, you were not there, so do not judge.Excuse me?! What was this:
You could tell Harley was just defending himself, he was trying to walk away while growling at the other dog to stop. Well his friend would not stop. Finally Harley had enough of being attacked, he fought back, and Bad, he took the other dogs leg in his mouth and shook, Alot.You had plenty of time to step in and defend your dog before he took matters in your own hands. "He had enough of being attacked"- WHY? Where were you?

And there WAS body language- you even said so yourself- Harley growled at him to stop and he would not stop. THERE is your body language. What more do you need? Do you need Harley to walk up to you and ask, "Mommy can I fight now?"

Stepping in when a fight starts is not a good idea. These dogs should be allowed to assert who ever is more dominant and sort it out themselves.I agree with Lucky on this one. If one is much bigger than the other, or if they are equal in size, age and dominance, the fight probably won't end before somebody dies. Dogs will battle till the death. You have to step in. If you aren't willing to, you shouldn't be in a dog park.

doggy lover
February 3rd, 2006, 05:11 PM
Why do we put our values on our pets. If one dog doesn't like another for whatever reason they growl at the other dog show their teeth and if need be snap at or bite them, that is dogs being dogs.

You will never stop all of this, just as I don't like everyone I meet I don't expect my dog too. If I know that my dog has a problem with another I would just keep him away from that dog not all dogs. I understand what you are saying about paying for the vet, if it makes you feel better go ahead, but I think the other dog was more at fault than yours.

Even when some dogs play fight they can hurt each other, Tucker and his friend that he loves to play with have nipped each other a little hard a few times normaly the other one yelps and nips the other back end of fight, but to watch them play sometimes you would thing they are killing each other. most of the time they are like this

Rottielover
February 3rd, 2006, 06:41 PM
Prin, I was right there, one second they wer playing the next second the other dog out of the blue attacked him.... I did try to stop it when he was trying to get away, BUT the other dog was too insane. The owner of the other dog was not able to get a hold of him, WHICH left my dog more valunerable to the attack. Harley is a rottie, lots of power....Other dog was not small either.
If you would have been there, you would have seen what happend. But your weren't, and you only know what I am typing. Trying to explain this here is impossible.
I did what I could... I WAS RIGHT THERE

Rottielover
February 7th, 2006, 09:59 AM
Harley has regressed in alot of things. He is now alot more aprehensive while on leash with male dogs. They just look at him funny, and he starts actinc out. I get him to stop, but before the fight this never happend. Also I do not trust him playing with male dogs anymore. He has become to big for his britches, so not taking any chances.
He is fine to play with females...( so far ).
We start OB class again on the 20th, so we BOTH can build our confidence back up.
I still look at him, and think, what happened to my laid back pup.