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Coyotes- can't take much more of this

Rottimom
February 2nd, 2006, 12:14 AM
I am at my wits end with our night-time coyote visits. Last night, I was outside with Herc for his bedtime bathroom break, when 4-6 coyotes came at his from all angles and surrounded him. They circled him and took turns running up to him as if they were nipping at him. Contrary to reason.... I can't explain why they did this as he is so much larger than they are. Luckily he came out unscathed this time. (Not so lucky about a week ago, his bite wound is still healing) I pounded on the window and my husband came running out, and Herc came when we called him to us. The coyotes prowled for several minutes after we had Herc safely inside and eventually scampered off.

I had a long chat with a gentleman from Animal Control today. His best advice was to always have Herc on his leash.... the coyotes shouldn't approach Herc if he is that close to me. That is fine, but I cannot stress enough how scary it is for me to be outside, in the dark, I'm 5 months pregnant and I can hear them howling and yipping- and I can't see them!! So my temporary solution is that we now go out front (on leash of course) instead of out back.

My husband and I are planning to put up a fence or enclose a dog run area but I guess we need to wait for the ground to be soft enough. In the meantime..... we'll just have to persevere with the leash out front. Herc won't like it but at least he'll be safe.

The man at Animal control was very helpful and informative. He advised me that wildlife populations are very high this year in all of Southern Ontario. More deer/ foxes/ rabbits/coyotes etc. I will definitely be cautioning my neighbors and friends who have small dogs or even cats to not leave them unattended outside!!

chico2
February 2nd, 2006, 07:47 AM
Rottimom,scary encounter for sure!!Although I think Coyotes are beautiful animals,if I had them in my backyard I would be concerned,a fence is a must.
But even a fence might not keep Coyotes out.
I would definetly warn the neighbors,they have been known to kill small dogs and cats here in Oakville.
Don't they get scared and run away when you show yourself??

joeysmama
February 2nd, 2006, 07:52 AM
I wish I had more time to go into the ordeal we had here about 12 years ago with a coyote. Our neighborhood was new and we had a lot of deer and wild turkey showing up since we had literally built our homes in the middle of theirs. Then we started hearing the coyotes howl. At first we weren't concerned because we only heard them at night and didn't see them. They were behaving like coyotes and staying in the woods so we weren't worried.

Then we started seeing a coyote in the day. At first we just caught a glimpse of him in the wooded area across the street. Then he was on the edge of the wood. So we called animal control and were told there was nothing they could do.

Then there was a report a day it seemed. This neighbor had seen him at the edge of her yard. That one had seen him (or more likely her) on the sidewalk when she out for the morning paper.

So this was scary. There were a lot of young children in the neighborhood then. We were very concerned.

Pretty soon it was common to see the coyote in the middle of the afternoon walking up a driveway. We couldn't let the kids come home from the bus unattended and we couldn't let them play outside. Animal control sent someone out to see but he said that they really couldn't catch it because it probably had pups in the woods and they didn't want to take it from it's pups. So I called the state about it. Their animal department said that the coyote was protected and we shouldn't worry unless it came out in the daytime. I said it was on our sidewalk in the middle of the afternoon.

We took video of the coyote walking through a yard on the next block, walking right under a swingset !! There were kids playing basketball in the background of the video.

So then animal control told me not to worry about it unless it started sniffing around small animals. A few days later we watched it prowling around the bushes and a minute later it dove in and came flying out with a cat in it's mouth !!

I was back on the phone and told them. They said "Don't worry about it unless it starts sniffing around small children." :eek: :eek: I said "Do I call you back when it has one in it's mouth ?" I told them that if they really wanted to protect the coyote they should come get it because a few of the people in the neighborhood who own guns were going to shoot it the next time they saw it. And she said--"Be aware that if they do we WILL prosecute."

It wasn't a long time after that the coyote disappeared and the deer population was out and about again. No one ever said who did it but there were rumors that a dad took care of the matter.

Anyway---I hope you are able to solve the problem. After that long story I really have no advice for you, except to be very careful !!

joeysmama
February 2nd, 2006, 07:52 AM
I wish I had more time to go into the ordeal we had here about 12 years ago with a coyote. Our neighborhood was new and we had a lot of deer and wild turkey showing up since we had literally built our homes in the middle of theirs. Then we started hearing the coyotes howl. At first we weren't concerned because we only heard them at night and didn't see them. They were behaving like coyotes and staying in the woods so we weren't worried.

Then we started seeing a coyote in the day. At first we just caught a glimpse of him in the wooded area across the street. Then he was on the edge of the wood. So we called animal control and were told there was nothing they could do.

Then there was a report a day it seemed. This neighbor had seen him at the edge of her yard. That one had seen him (or more likely her) on the sidewalk when she out for the morning paper.

So this was scary. There were a lot of young children in the neighborhood then. We were very concerned.

Pretty soon it was common to see the coyote in the middle of the afternoon walking up a driveway. We couldn't let the kids come home from the bus unattended and we couldn't let them play outside. Animal control sent someone out to see but he said that they really couldn't catch it because it probably had pups in the woods and they didn't want to take it from it's pups. So I called the state about it. Their animal department said that the coyote was protected and we shouldn't worry unless it came out in the daytime. I said it was on our sidewalk in the middle of the afternoon.

We took video of the coyote walking through a yard on the next block, walking right under a swingset !! There were kids playing basketball in the background of the video.

So then animal control told me not to worry about it unless it started sniffing around small animals. A few days later we watched it prowling around the bushes and a minute later it dove in and came flying out with a cat in it's mouth !!

I was back on the phone and told them. They said "Don't worry about it unless it starts sniffing around small children." :eek: :eek: I said "Do I call you back when it has one in it's mouth ?" I told them that if they really wanted to protect the coyote they should come get it because a few of the people in the neighborhood who own guns were going to shoot it the next time they saw it. And she said--"Be aware that if they do we WILL prosecute."

It wasn't a long time after that the coyote disappeared and the deer population was out and about again. No one ever said who did it but there were rumors that a dad took care of the matter.

Anyway---I hope you are able to solve the problem. After that long story I really have no advice for you, except to be very careful !!

BMDLuver
February 2nd, 2006, 08:21 AM
Personally, I would be out back with a skeet shooting rifle loaded with blanks. That way it makes one heck of a roar and off the coyotes go. We had them at our place when I lived in Niagara and two farmers spent a week rotating nightly and shooting off blanks into the woods. The animals don't get hurt but it sure sends them a message that this property is not a good refuge for them. They took 12 turkeys out of my place, just gutted them and left them. The egg farmer down the road lost over 100 in a month. They kill for pleasure more than they kill for need. I have also know farmers to get a grape gun and set it up just off the border of the property. They don't like the pow sound either. Of course, make sure your neighbours are in agreement to rid the area of coyotes first.

Prin
February 2nd, 2006, 08:35 AM
Fences don't help?

BMDLuver
February 2nd, 2006, 08:39 AM
Doors didn't help my turkeys, they went over a 5' dutch door to drag them out. So I don't think fences would hold them back unless it's a cedar plank fence but farm areas don't have those as too costly..

Rottimom
February 2nd, 2006, 04:35 PM
I've been told that they can easily jump a 6 foot fence, so you should build your fence at some sort of angle. Once we got Hercules inside the other night, my husband swore he saw one of them leap onto the air and high 5 another one. :highfive:

I am hearing more and more scary stories. I guess I am thanking my lucky stars that something worse hasn't happened. I keep going back to the time I found Herc 'playing' with one of the coyotes. If I wasn't as paranoid as everyone says I am, and checking on him every 30 seconds ... who knows what might have happened that night.

The man at animal control also told me that the "good news" is that there have been no reported attacks on humans. Granted, that IS good news, but it alarms me a great deal that my shouts and screams the other night didn't scare them off. Not that they came close to me..... but they didn't go away.

happycats
February 2nd, 2006, 04:49 PM
We have coyotes too. our fence is about 7 feet high, and they always stop at the fence, they have never jumped over, or tried to dig under it.

I heard very bright motion detector spot lights hlep keep them away, also try those little cherry bomb firecrackers, or a can filled with rocks or pennies, and shake them like crazy when you see them.
You might want to look or different kinds of repellents.

I do know how you feel though, because when I hear them all start to howl, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and I wouldn't go out there if you paid me:eek:

Skryker
February 2nd, 2006, 05:02 PM
Where my mother's family lives in New Brunswick, they have something the locals call "bush dogs" or "bush wolves" that are part coyote (so they tell me) and part feral dog. Combines the innate instincts of both, plus they seem to fear people much less:eek: .

I think it may be possible that urban coyotes are much the same blend, so it may be hard to predict their actions based purely on wild coyotes. Of course, different environment probably means the same.

I hope Herc gets better soon and you have no more scary night encounters.


I just read the other thread about the red wolf hybrids. I wonder if that is what my relatives see and only think they are part dog?

Off kilter thought-If the coyotes have decided your yard is their territory, I wonder if your husband can use Farley Mowat's solution from "Never Cry Wolf" and mark your yard as HIS territory instead? LOL!!! It might work, but I's sure your neighbours might wonder ....

Rottimom
February 2nd, 2006, 05:12 PM
I do know how you feel though, because when I hear them all start to howl, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and I wouldn't go out there if you paid me:eek:

LOL, believe me, if they made litter boxes big enough for Hercules we wouldnt be going outside at all after 6 pm! ;)

Rottimom
February 2nd, 2006, 05:16 PM
Off kilter thought-If the coyotes have decided your yard is their territory, I wonder if your husband can use Farley Mowat's solution from "Never Cry Wolf" and mark your yard as HIS territory instead? LOL!!! It might work, but I's sure your neighbours might wonder ....

LMAO!! :D Now there's a suggestion I hadn't heard yet! At this point, I dont even think it's unreasonable at all............

Skryker
February 2nd, 2006, 05:19 PM
;) Be sure to post if you try it and it works. :D

chico2
February 3rd, 2006, 07:56 AM
I certainly understand your worry about Herc and I hope you find a safe solution.
It's just sad it has come to this,here in Oakville they are building monster-homes,where just a few years ago we had open fields and woods,the wild creatures robbed of their habitats:sad:and instances like yours,will be the result.
Sad for the people,pets,but also the Coyotes themselves:sad:

Skryker
February 3rd, 2006, 10:45 AM
It's just sad it has come to this,here in Oakville they are building monster-homes,where just a few years ago we had open fields and woods,the wild creatures robbed of their habitats:sad:and instances like yours,will be the result.
Sad for the people,pets,but also the Coyotes themselves:sad:


I completely agree, chico2. I was born and grew up in Oakville. Oakville Town Centre now sits where my father's family's farm was. I can clearly remember when Hwy 5 was boonieville-nothing but farms, and Upper Middle Road was the outskirts of civilization. Last time I was anywhere down there, I couldn't believe that Hwy 5 is now Dundas Street and pretty much the center of town.

As for the people/animal interactions, I used to work for the company that answered the phones after hours for the Humane Society in Oakville. True but sad story:
A woman called because she saw a raccoon on her neighbour's roof and she wanted an Animal Control Officer out right away to trap and remove it. When I explained that the ACC would only come for injured animals, this woman's comment was "This is a nice neighbourhood! We have doctors in this neighbourhood! We don't want raccoons!".

What a shame to pay so much for that house with the ravine in the back yard, but expect it to be sanitized of wildlife.

Not to say, Rottiemom, that you want the coyotes in your back yard attacking Herc, but I hope you find a solution that works for everyone. :fingerscr

Rottimom
February 3rd, 2006, 11:00 AM
I also agree. I was actually a bit nervous to even call Animal Control as I don't want the coyotes to be driven out of YET another home..... but of course I am feeling threatened by them and am concerned for the safety of Herc, and my neighbors and their pets etc.

I live in Hamilton, and once called Animal Control when I saw a very disoriented raccoon stumbling down a residential street in the middle of the day. He was obviously very very sick. Animal Control told me that if they found it and they did feel it was sick or injured, it would be pts. I was devastated, but I would have much rather him be pts humanely than be shovelled to death by someone.

So for now, a fence and leash it is. Hopefully a solution good for all. :fingerscr

Shamrock
February 3rd, 2006, 02:48 PM
Rottimom. I'm sorry for all you've been through with this worrisome issue. A fence and a leash seem the best protection for now. I hope this problem can be addressed for you.

Squirrels, raccoons and coyotes are all very prevalent throughout the Greater Vancouver area, common in parks, suburbs, even in the busy city.
I 've seen coyotes many times, and while their terrain is certainly being encroached on with development, I believe they are a highly adapabtle animal too.

I worry a lot about coyotes.
At 6 pounds, my dog is a likely target - I can never let him off leash. I've heard of small dogs being grabbed at while on-leash too, though this boldness would take a pretty desperate animal, I believe.

We have a 6-ft cedar plank fence at home, and so that gives me some sense of security when letting him out into the yard to do his business, though I keep it brief.

I lost a beautiful cat to a wild animal six years ago... its always been a mystery what exactly killed him..
I thought it "must' have been a coyote, but my understanding was that they took their kill to their den, while my cat's remains were left behind -a gruesome scene to say the least. The head was missing, and his fur was everywhere, indicating a fierce struggle)
This didnt sound like a coyote... or a raccoon, or dogs.. but something killed my lovely boy. An indoor cat who was inadvertently let outside, he didnt make it through one single night, heartbreaking bad luck. :sad:

I know coyotes are simply an animal looking to survive, and will take whatever they can find. Whenever I walk the park trails though, they are never far from my mind. They may be out of sight, but they're there.

chico2
February 3rd, 2006, 03:43 PM
Skryker,yes,part of the reason we bought in Oakville was because we were 5 min away from farmland and 30min from Toronto.
Luckily we live in an old area,nothing can change here and we get racoons,possums,groundhogs,rabbits,skunks etc...:D A million birds(seems like it) at my feeders and hawks who lunch on them:sad:
My cats are never out on their own,but as of yet,I've not seen any Coyotes around my house,but have heard from people who's dogs/cats have been killed or maimed by Coyotes.
I actually did not know they were protected,I thought,like last summer(or was it the summer before),when the MONR killed 9.000 racoons and foxes,coyotes would be on the list too.
Shamrock,what a terrible thing to have to discover,it could have been a Coyote or just a regular dog,racoons as far as I know,don't bother with cats,unless they feal threatened.

doggy lover
February 3rd, 2006, 04:44 PM
I remember your last post about coyotes and Yes they attack in packs and will attack dogs. Try a starter pistol or an air horn, but I would warn neighbours first if there is any close. I have heard that they are acting strange this year, why?????

Writing4Fun
February 3rd, 2006, 04:53 PM
Try a starter pistol or an air horn, but I would warn neighbours first if there is any close. I have heard that they are acting strange this year, why?????
A paintball marker might work, too. Makes a bit of noise and stings like the dickens, but it won't really hurt them (only it'll make them look really festive :p ).

They are acting very wierd this year. I'm thinking it's the odd weather we're having. Their natural prey isn't acting naturally (coming out of hibernation early and such), so neither are they.

Beetlecat
February 6th, 2006, 03:45 PM
I thought coyotes were considered a 'pest' species and legal to shoot. Not that I'm advocating shooting them, but I did not think a person could be prosecuted for killing one.

I know some folks that had four 2-month-old puppies get taken by (they assume) coyotes. The mother dog had teeth punctures on her haunches and they assume a few of them attacked and distracted her while the others took the puppies.

Coyotes are opportunistic and crazy smart.

And flying carnivores such as eagles or hawk are notorious cat-killers. Cats are right about in the right range of their normal food sources, and they tend to rip carcasses apart.

Bushfire2000
February 6th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Off kilter thought-If the coyotes have decided your yard is their territory, I wonder if your husband can use Farley Mowat's solution from "Never Cry Wolf" and mark your yard as HIS territory instead? LOL!!! It might work, but I's sure your neighbours might wonder ....

Well if your worried about the neighbors you could load a squirt gun or spray bottle to do the job lol.:D

I have a fenced run for my dogs that includes a roof. I use it, the roof, more for protection from hawks/eagles than coyotes but it could help for them too.

gdamadg
February 6th, 2006, 08:01 PM
LOL, believe me, if they made litter boxes big enough for Hercules we wouldnt be going outside at all after 6 pm!

Have I got a story to tell, ;) . A friend of mines Uncle is a pretty important man, and lives in a tiny house worth a large number with a lot of zeros after it. Any ways, they have two Poms that don't like the cold. Well in the basement they have a play area with a 2 foot high fence around it and in the corner the "Turdmaster 2000". It's a 6ft x 6ft x 2ft deep box filled with scoopable litter and a tiny fire hydrant in the center. Well when we were visiting over the holidays, we gave my gf the "grand tour" and Sprint felt the need to test it out. Probably made about a one pound scoop there. ;)

Gazoo
February 7th, 2006, 07:35 PM
I thought coyotes were considered a 'pest' species and legal to shoot. Not that I'm advocating shooting them, but I did not think a person could be prosecuted for killing one.

I.


Maybe they need to be thinned out a little???

I'm a farmboy at heart....I don't see a reason not to shoot the aggressive ones if they are becoming that forward and dangerous.

raingirl
February 7th, 2006, 07:54 PM
I vote for a motion sensor light. Go for the one with 2 or 3 flood lights on it. They are super easy to install yourself (takes 10 min tops!). That way you are all safe!

Gazoo
February 7th, 2006, 08:04 PM
I vote for a motion sensor light. Go for the one with 2 or 3 flood lights on it. They are super easy to install yourself (takes 10 min tops!). That way you are all safe!

That'll just make it easier for the coyotes to see their prey!!!!

happycats
February 7th, 2006, 08:24 PM
That'll just make it easier for the coyotes to see their prey!!!!
They don't like to be "exposed" they try to stay in the shadows, so if your whole yard is lit, that should keep them out of the yard.

I wonder if zoo poo would work? Maybe try calling your local zoo, I know the zoo near uss sells the zoo animal poo, and apparently lion poo scares off even the most ferocious beast:D I think they also sell "silent roar" which is pellets scented with lion pee/poo.

Gazoo
February 7th, 2006, 08:30 PM
They don't like to be "exposed" they try to stay in the shadows, so if your whole yard is lit, that should keep them out of the yard.

I wonder if zoo poo would work? Maybe try calling your local zoo, I know the zoo near uss sells the zoo animal poo, and apparently lion poo scares off even the most ferocious beast:D


Coyotes don't care about lights... it'll scare them the first time or two but they'll keep coming back like a bad rash.

Zoo poo might work but unfortunately they just move on to the next property and harass them and their pets :(

happycats
February 7th, 2006, 08:41 PM
Here is another option http://www.frostproof.com/catalog/deer_sprayer.html
and another http://www.kickenass.com/
and this explains why killing coyotes only increases it's population! http://www.idausa.org/facts/coyotes.html

happycats
February 7th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Coyotes don't care about lights... it'll scare them the first time or two but they'll keep coming back like a bad rash.

Zoo poo might work but unfortunately they just move on to the next property and harass them and their pets :(

I lived in farm country for a few years, and I just couldn't understand how the answer to any so call "pest" problem was to shoot it:sad:

We have Coyotes here too, they come right up to my fence, and no one has lost a pet yet. Maybe that's because we also have a very large rabbit population.

russte
February 7th, 2006, 10:07 PM
That is very SCAREY, fortunately most of our dogs have had rabies shots and have been vaccinated for parvo which is spread by urine from coyotes and foxes, we have the same problem in northern Saskatchewan!:mad: We don't let our dogs out by themselves at night at all. russte

Gazoo
February 8th, 2006, 08:15 PM
I lived in farm country for a few years, and I just couldn't understand how the answer to any so call "pest" problem was to shoot it

.


Shooting the brave / aggressive ones helps by taking those genes out of the pool and/or by stopping the aggressive ones from teaching the younger ones where and how to hunt pets. It also reinstills fear of humans in the pack. Something that's lacking now.

doggy lover
February 8th, 2006, 08:27 PM
I believe a few years ago they had problems in a park in downtown Toronto with coyotes and they were going after small dogs. No lights don't bother them like I said I have seen them in Scarborough in the middle of the day. Called animal control and they asked if it was sick, and that was about it not interested. When I'm at the cottage I take Tucker out at night to do his duty before bed and I stay with him. If they came near him they would find a crazy woman and soon run away:eek:

chico2
February 9th, 2006, 08:14 AM
I can understand somebodys concern having Coyotes in their backyard,but shooting a wild animal,because we consider them pests,hardly seems fair.
Luckily I have never been face to face with one,but unless it attacked me,killing it for trying to exist would never enter my mind.
In our society we label,racoons,foxes,bears,coyotes,beavers,cormoran ts etc..pests.
There was a time when cockroaches,rats and mice were the only creatures considered pests:confused:
If you let your cat or dog out unattended,chances are you are risking it's life,in more ways than one.Their safety is our responsability.

Writing4Fun
February 9th, 2006, 09:35 AM
I wouldn't consider shooting them because they're "pests". I hate guns and hunting in any way, shape or form. BUT, if they came into my (fenced-in)back yard in broad daylight, there's a chance that they'd attack my children. You can bet your bottom dollar I'd shoot them then. Mind you, that's a pretty empty threat, since I don't keep a loaded gun propped up at the back door. More likely, I'd be throwing pots and pans at them. :crazy:

chico2
February 9th, 2006, 03:47 PM
W4F,that goes without question,any threat to my family or my cats,I too would bring out the big guns,namely pots,pan,or baseball bats,I would probably do just about anything.
I am just worried if people complain to much about"pests"like Coyotes,Racoons etc..,McGuinty and the Ministry of Natural Resources will once again go on a killingspree,to"protect"the citizens of Ontario.

Gazoo
February 9th, 2006, 09:58 PM
We've had a coyote here in Calgary try and take children from a playground in broad daylight in the middle of the city!!!!!!!

:eek:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/04/20/coyote-attacks050420.html


The problem is they no longer have fear of people.

gdamadg
February 10th, 2006, 04:03 PM
I am just worried if people complain to much about"pests"like Coyotes,Racoons etc..,McGuinty and the Ministry of Natural Resources will once again go on a killingspree,to"protect"the citizens of Ontario.


Ok, I am a hunter a gun owner and an avid conservationist. I don't condone the shooting of an innocent animal, just because it is considered a "pest". However, all of you that oppose all forms of "killing" as you may put it. Natural Resources has a very important and misunderstood job. With out the "checks and balances" that keep animal populations in check (because we can't keep our own in check and encroach on their territory), so called "pest" species populations will grow out of control and soon they will not only interfere and cause problems with "us", but they will start dying off from disease and starvation. And soon enough other species will be added to the "pest list". The Whitetail Deer for example, the population in North American has reached record numbers and now encroachs on new territory never used by this species. Including it reclaiming it's territory that we have built in. Causing conflicts between man and "beast", traffic fatalities, both deer and human and seeing Natural Resources having to capture and relocate an animal more and more.

phoenix
February 10th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Shooting the brave / aggressive ones helps by taking those genes out of the pool and/or by stopping the aggressive ones from teaching the younger ones where and how to hunt pets. It also reinstills fear of humans in the pack. Something that's lacking now.


Um... have we recently found the gene for leadership?? If so, great, maybe we can breed for better politicians;)
Perhaps shooting coyotes would put fear back into the pack... but I'm pretty sure that if the leader dies, another one steps up to be the leader. And in that case- you're just weakening the pool.

yoda900_ca
February 10th, 2006, 11:07 PM
i beleive this is a simaliar post running in to diff areas on this site.
1. she is having problems w/ her rottie being attacked by this coyotepack. the alpha male has decided that he can take on the rottie and clam the yard as his own. removing the pack leader will allow another to step in but that one seeing the results of what happened to his predicesor may decide it wasn't such a good idea.
2. There is a new hybrid type of coyote on the east coast now. It is a genetic mix of the red wolf and reg coyote. These coyotes are larger and form true pack behavior like a wolf but lack a wolf's fear of man. they can be very dangerous and bold
3. In my experience, unless u have 2 or 3 dogs yourself(acting pack Like) most "coyote replents" don't do jack once they have decided there yard belongs to them
4 gazoo has a good concept of how coyotes/wolves of north america live and run their packs. his ideas are right on. Let me put it to you this way chico, If your yard was run by another coyote pack there would be a full out fight, and when battling for alpha leadership of a pack often old alpha are killed or left to fend for themselves and often slowly strave to death. such is nature. taking out or removing the alpha coyote is a good idea in this case.

Gazoo
February 11th, 2006, 09:28 AM
Um... have we recently found the gene for leadership?? If so, great, maybe we can breed for better politicians;)
Perhaps shooting coyotes would put fear back into the pack... but I'm pretty sure that if the leader dies, another one steps up to be the leader. And in that case- you're just weakening the pool.


There is genetic research that shows that evolutionary changes can occur in as little as 15-18 generations!!! In the case of wolves a generation is every year!!

If we let the aqgrresive and fearless coyotes know that they aren't welcome in our neighborhoods they will behaviorally and genetically pass their fear to following generations thereby fixing the problem. :thumbs up...

and in the meantime they won't try to eat our children

.unknown.
February 11th, 2006, 01:41 PM
The only flaw in that theory is that humans are not staying put, we are constantly invading wildlife habitat. As long as we keep doing that, we expose wildlife to us, thus diminishing fear... Unless of course we just keep killing animals because we wanna live in their forests.

gdamadg
February 11th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Unless of course we just keep killing animals because we wanna live in their forests.

Ok, this is the point of view I hate the most. Yes if we want to live in their forests, it will 'cause more conflicts with wildlife. However, where do you think you live now? Unless you live in a desert or on the prairies, the land you live on was once a forest and in most cases not that long ago Major logging in our current urban areas didn't stop until recent years. The area I live in was once a tall standing forest until the late 1800's. We are the pests, not them. But we have to learn to live with them, and that includes wildlife management (hunting, relocation, "pest" control).

I know history is "boring" to some, but maybe some should read a few books.

Gazoo
February 11th, 2006, 02:48 PM
The only flaw in that theory is that humans are not staying put, we are constantly invading wildlife habitat. As long as we keep doing that, we expose wildlife to us, thus diminishing fear... Unless of course we just keep killing animals because we wanna live in their forests.



I'm sorry but that's such an invalid argument in a vast and primarily undeveloped country like Canada

.unknown.
February 11th, 2006, 05:59 PM
We are the pests, not them. But we have to learn to live with them, and that includes wildlife management (hunting, relocation, "pest" control).

I know history is "boring" to some, but maybe some should read a few books.

You obviously didn't catch that sarcasm.... I agree that WE are the pests. relocation doesn't always work, and as long as Humans live the lives we do, we are going to attract animals...

I just think it's ironic that people who go live in natural places end up trying to remove the very thing that makes those places special.... Spending too much time adapting their environment to be more suitable to them rather than adapting to the envirnment... I'm not saying hunting is bad, or anything like that. All i'm saying is, living in a forest comes with risks....just like living in a city does.

Rottimom
February 11th, 2006, 06:38 PM
Well I for one will not be shooting any coyotes. I'm a lover of all animals (as long as centipedes don't count as animals! :D ) I DO live in the city and we've always enjoyed our backyard view of trees and nothing else. I love that we get a little bit of wildlife but would sleep better at night if I was sure they wouldnt hurt my boy.:sad: Just 2 nights ago at about 8:30pm I watched 3 of them saunter out from the trees. They were darned near as big as Hercules. I was so glad we were inside. Tonight Herc and I played ball together outside for about half an hour, but we came in right around 6pm - Animal control warned me that dusk and dawn are the prime hunting times. But I was so on edge, my eyes never left that patch of trees..... and I had his leash in my hands the whole time just in case........

gdamadg
February 11th, 2006, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by .unknown.
You obviously didn't catch that sarcasm....

No I didn't, sorry. It is a touchy subject and I often get into arguements about it. I often get "how can you call yourself a conservationist if you are a hunter?" and it goes from there. I completely understand your opinion now. I live in a remote area and live with wildlife closely. In the fall there are a group of deer that feed under the oak tree across the road. And I am sure that a Fisher has been taking the cats that go missing.

Originally Posted by Rottimom
Well I for one will not be shooting any coyotes.

I would never shoot a coyote either, unless it was a threat to a member of my family (Sprint), or any one or thing else that was not in it's natural food chain.


Originally Posted by phoenix
Perhaps shooting coyotes would put fear back into the pack...

Of course it will. Even if you don't want to accept it, we are a omnivorous predator. With a opportunist predator like the coyote; which if let be will think that our young are prey, need to be put in place if it cause a threat to us. It may sound heartless but if you show predatory traits towards it, it will leave you alone.

glasslass
February 11th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I don't personally think relocation solves anything. In California, we've had a real problem with cougars that have lost fear of humans. People have been attacked and even killed. A few years ago in the Los Angeles suburbs, a child was killed by a coyote. One poodle was taken right off its front porch. They keep trapping and relocating. You just move the problem. When an animal attacks a human, they are hunted and killed if possible, but you always wonder if it was just a quick solution to quiet the panic in the community. My own sister-in-law's little sheltie was attacked and almost killed by coyotes. How it managed to escape and get back into the house through the doggie door, they'll never know. The sad thing is he was pretty torn up and was home alone for hours before she got home. He was attacked in his own fenced backyard. I don't know how high the fence was, but it was in an old established residential area. This happened before she married my brother. When I visit my brother, my dogs are taken outside on a short leash until they do their business and then go right back inside with me. My city-boys wouldn't have a chance in the country.

gdamadg
February 11th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Relocation isn't a solution. In most cases relocated animals just return to where they came from. Look at dogs that go missing away from home and some how find their way home.

Gazoo
February 11th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Even if you don't want to accept it, we are a omnivorous predator. With a opportunist predator like the coyote; which if let be will think that our young are prey, need to be put in place if it cause a threat to us. It may sound heartless but if you show predatory traits towards it, it will leave you alone.


Bingo...:thumbs up

Once they start coming after our children...which they have!!!

Its a whole new ball game!!!

gdamadg
February 11th, 2006, 10:06 PM
Bingo...


LOL, Gazoo whether in cartoon or on here, you bring me laughter. ;)

Rottimom
February 11th, 2006, 11:26 PM
[quote] I would never shoot a coyote either, unless it was a threat to a member of my family (Sprint), or any one or thing else that was not in it's natural food chain.

I hear ya..... that night that Herc came in with a bleeding wound (which we believe to have been from a coyote attack), I felt like I could have killed one with my bare hands. Protective instinct kicked in. But realistically I know I couldn't. I guess deep down I believe that even when wild animals attack, it's for some instinctual reason (hunger, fear, territorial etc.); not malice. And I am such a pathetic softie for any animal, :o I can't help but think "But what if I am killing a mother.... what about her cubs..." If I had no other option; hands down Herc's safety would override all those thoughts. But since I do have the option of taking him out front on leash after dark, I will continue to do that until he is safely fenced in; despite the inconvenience and his lack of freedom.

And apparently (once again, according to animal control) if wildlife IS relocated, it must be relocated within 1 km. That certainly wouldn't solve anything.

gdamadg
February 11th, 2006, 11:35 PM
I will continue to do that until he is safely fenced in

Now keep in mind, that if you fence your yard, make it as high as you can afford and ensure nothing is propped up to or near the outside of the fence. And have a good spotlight that provides adequate coverage of your whole yard. Coyotes can clear quite a high distance, which would just give them a pen to chase their "prey". At least if you let him run in your yard, keep an eye on him. I wouldn't want to read another post about Herc being hurt again. :)

Rottimom
February 11th, 2006, 11:48 PM
:thumbs up Duly noted. Will make sure all those precautions are also in place. I appreciate all the suggestions. :love:

And of course I'll still be out there with him 90% of the time. I wouldn't want to give up our play time... :rolleyes:

gdamadg
February 12th, 2006, 12:42 AM
I wish my next door neighbor would think like that. Poor dog. It appears he thinks of her as a security guard for his motorcycles. Although he mustn't care much about them either as it's -21 out and they are outside. Willow is the most beautiful mutt I have ever seen. I am thinking she is sheppard/saint bernard X. In the summer she was almost able to rest her head on their 5ft chain link fence and now that there is almost 3ft of snow out there, I am suprised she hasn't take off into the woods. I am pretty safe here, I have her on one side and on the other side there is a giant snauzer and a great pyrenees. Well and compared to those dogs, I have Sprint my lil guy, ;) .

.unknown.
February 12th, 2006, 09:29 AM
Of course it will. Even if you don't want to accept it, we are a omnivorous predator. With a opportunist predator like the coyote; which if let be will think that our young are prey, need to be put in place if it cause a threat to us. It may sound heartless but if you show predatory traits towards it, it will leave you alone.

The thing that people forget is that outside of all of our technology and hustle and bustle, we're as much part of the food chain as the coyotes. It's a pretty one sided battle overall, but on an individual basis it's you or them... Which it would be if you entered their den.

Good luck with then fence building! :pawprint:

chico2
February 12th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Here we go,I spent some very anxious,upsetting months,when our MONR decided to kill 9.000 racoons and foxes,I believe about 2yrs ago.
The strategy was to limit rabies,the truth is they found 99,9% of the animals healthy:sad: Some furrier must have made a killing!!
In some states in the US,they feed wild animals rabies-vaccine in food,a much more efficient and humane way to control rabies.
One of our members"Iggette",found some abandonned baby-coons,the mother probably killed.
Nobody could help her,every wild animal sanctuary had been told to kill them.
Out of the 6 babies,one survived and Iggette nurtured it into adulthood.
Then there was the shooting of 3.000 Cormorants,why? Because they destroyed the trees in their habitat.
Here in Oakville we have a Canada geese overpopulation,people living in 1-5 million dollar homes(not me) on the lake are bothered by them.
The town of Oakville decides to gather them up in trucks(where many died)and move them elsewhere,maybe forgetting,birds fly and they were soon back again:D
Personally I do not see that we as humans have the right to decide,there are too many of any animal and go on a killing-spree or move them to a place where they will die.
My dream was always to move in to the countryside and you can be sure,no animal would die on my property,unless in an extreem case,the animal attacks.
Most wild animals are afraid of us humans and I feel priviledged if any animal would loose his fear of me,with the exception maybe of bears and wolves,whom I would admire at a distance.
Here is a pic of Iggettes racoon Chico,who eventually joined his wild friends.

happycats
February 12th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Ok, I am a hunter a gun owner and an avid conservationist. I don't condone the shooting of an innocent animal, just because it is considered a "pest". However, all of you that oppose all forms of "killing" as you may put it. Natural Resources has a very important and misunderstood job. With out the "checks and balances" that keep animal populations in check (because we can't keep our own in check and encroach on their territory), so called "pest" species populations will grow out of control and soon they will not only interfere and cause problems with "us", but they will start dying off from disease and starvation. And soon enough other species will be added to the "pest list". The Whitetail Deer for example, the population in North American has reached record numbers and now encroachs on new territory never used by this species. Including it reclaiming it's territory that we have built in. Causing conflicts between man and "beast", traffic fatalities, both deer and human and seeing Natural Resources having to capture and relocate an animal more and more.


It's funny how nature has always been able to take care of it's own "checks and balances" Until man intervenes!!

Why does man believe he is God, and should keep nature in check!!?? Nature looks after itself just fine. As for the Whitetail deer population, if man would stop killing all the coyotes and wolves, they would naturally keep the population in check, and do a much better job at it, they kill the old sick, and weak, where the hunter kills the biggest most beautiful, strong bucks, weakening the gene pool.

As for traffic fatalities with the deer, they seem to be a much more common occurence during hunting season, when hunters and hunting dogs scare them into traffic!

Gazoo
February 12th, 2006, 05:39 PM
It's funny how nature has always been able to take care of it's own "checks and balances" Until man intervenes!!Why does man believe he is God, and should keep nature in check!!?? Nature looks after itself just fine. As for the Whitetail deer population, if man would stop killing all the coyotes and wolves, they would naturally keep the population in check, and do a much better job at it, they kill the old sick, and weak, where the hunter kills the biggest most beautiful, strong bucks, weakening the gene pool.

As for traffic fatalities with the deer, they seem to be a much more common occurence during hunting season, when hunters and hunting dogs scare them into traffic!


Humans are a part of nature as well.



Hunters do not only take trophy animals. Proper wildlife management assures that hunters take adult male and female animals for meat and not only trophies.

Gazoo
February 12th, 2006, 05:42 PM
It's funny how nature has always been able to take care of it's own "checks and balances" Until man intervenes!!

Why does man believe he is God, and should keep nature in check!!?? Nature looks after itself just fine.


By having pets we are fundamentally messing with nature...

happycats
February 13th, 2006, 04:03 PM
By having pets we are fundamentally messing with nature...

Yes you are correct. we all have a hand in messing with nature, but I still don't agree with "shooting" it, to so called "control it", or because it is an inconvenience or bothersome to us. JMO:)

Humans are a part of nature as well. From what I've seen they're mostly against it;)

Gazoo
February 13th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Yes you are correct. we all have a hand in messing with nature, but I still don't agree with "shooting" it, to so called "control it", or because it is an inconvenience or bothersome to us. JMO:)

From what I've seen they're mostly against it;)


guess we'll just have to agree to disagree:D

happycats
February 13th, 2006, 05:31 PM
guess we'll just have to agree to disagree:D

Agreed ;) :)