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Shelters and Pet Stores

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Its not like me to rant, but I've heard some comments from this board as well as the general public that I would like to dicuss. First off,earlier this year, my wife and I decided that we wanted a puppy. We thought that we would start from the begining so that we could raise our dog our way and break any bad habits before they start. Obviously if we wanted a more mature dog, we would have went to a shelter to adopt one. We did start however by looking at shelter lists in our area for a puppy to adopt. We wanted a puppy that would grow up to be a medium size dog (my wife wanted a yellow lab or g. retriever; i wanted a beagle). After weeks of looking we did not find the type of dog we were looking for. We did not want to have to travel around the province looking either. Most of the dogs were mature and at the time there did not seem to be alot of puppies.
Every time we would go to the mall we would always stop at the pet store to see what was there. Buying from a pet store was not all that bad as our family pet that we had when I grew up came from one and she turned out to be an excellent dog. ( I miss her dearly as she past away in 2004). She was a husky/terrier cross and lived a great full life of 16yrs.
One day during our searches, we went into the pet store and saw these wonderful lab/beagle/shepperd pups ( a good comprimise for my wife and I)and I said thats the dog for us. A little leary of the pet store thing (not knowing where they actually came from) we went ahead and purchased the lone female that was there. She has; with many trials and tribulations, turned out to be my little furry buddy ( at about 45lbs :) ) who I love dearly and she is now 11 months.
My whole point here is that yes she came from a pet store, but these animals need homes too. I have seen way to many puppies that have been at a store way too long and that just makes it harder for them to be integrated into society. I have heard way too many people critisize the pet store and frankly when I look at my little doggy it hurts my feelings. We should be critisizing the people that don't have their pets spayed or neutered instead. Yes, there are far too many puppies and kittens out there without homes whether they come from a pet store or shelter, I just don't want people to make me feel bad for purchasing my dog at a pet store. But out there somewhere, there are two dogs that I am glad were not spayed or neutered (just once) because without them I would not be graced with my little furry angel. We did make an atempt at a shelter but I do not regret buying from a pet store and would do it again under the right circumstances only if there was nothing for us at a shelter (actually there is no current shelter in our county as most pets are in foster homes; shelter is coming soon though)
Thanks for listening and would love to hear feed back.

Gazoo
January 8th, 2006, 05:48 PM
The problem with pet store dogs is they are about the profits and not the pets.

happycats
January 8th, 2006, 05:48 PM
We have been over this so many times, but here is some info.
Please read. Just remember the more people keep buying from pet stores, the longer puppy mills stay in business !!

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=6081&highlight=puppy+mills

happycats
January 8th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Here is a dog who was a breeder in a puppy mill (puppies sold to store, just like the one you bought your dog from) So by buying that puppy, you helped keep this dogs owner in business!!
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=22680&highlight=puppy+mills

And here are some more. http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=21276&highlight=puppy+mills

cpietra16
January 8th, 2006, 05:53 PM
I can only talk for myself, but my thought is this; if pet stores get their animals from mills and backyard breeders then they are as guilty as the breeders who abuse their animals. I would like to see pet stores get out of selling animals and if everyone stopped buying from pet stores maybe we could put one or two breeders out of business. But you are right...when you save an animal it is an animal saved....but ever wonder who gave birth to the dog or cat you just bought and what appalling condition she had to live in and give birth in???

heather331
January 8th, 2006, 05:56 PM
i understand what everyone says about pet stores and the puppies coming form mills and byb's and i agree that its not right for those dogs to be brought into the world that way. yes i also agree that buying from them just supports it and i also understand that these puppies are often sick and in need of great medical care....but i also know that these dogs need homes too! i probably visit the two pet stores in my area almost every other day. i am very torn on this subject, but if everyone knew these things about pets at the pet store, what would happend to the ones there? where would they go?

happycats
January 8th, 2006, 06:04 PM
i understand what everyone says about pet stores and the puppies coming form mills and byb's and i agree that its not right for those dogs to be brought into the world that way. yes i also agree that buying from them just supports it and i also understand that these puppies are often sick and in need of great medical care....but i also know that these dogs need homes too! i probably visit the two pet stores in my area almost every other day. i am very torn on this subject, but if everyone knew these things about pets at the pet store, what would happend to the ones there? where would they go?
When the get to big or sick, they will probably be dumped at a local shelter or pound, where you can adopt them for about one tenth of the price!

Gazoo
January 8th, 2006, 06:10 PM
i understand what everyone says about pet stores and the puppies coming form mills and byb's and i agree that its not right for those dogs to be brought into the world that way. yes i also agree that buying from them just supports it and i also understand that these puppies are often sick and in need of great medical care....but i also know that these dogs need homes too! i probably visit the two pet stores in my area almost every other day. i am very torn on this subject, but if everyone knew these things about pets at the pet store, what would happend to the ones there? where would they go?


thats really flawed logic though....you really can't fix a problem by contributing to the cause

the only way to stop the problem of backyard breeders/puppy mills is by stopping the profit cycle and NOT buying from them

heather331
January 8th, 2006, 06:20 PM
dont get me wrong...i totally understand and couldnt agree with you more, but i can help but feel sorry for these puppies that are there...they need a home too!

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 06:37 PM
I understand where people are coming from and I understand that a lot of puppies that end up in pet stores come from puppy mills, but I am sure that all do not. There's always that situation where there is a litter from unfixed dogs where the owner is not in it for any profit and may donate the puppies to a pet store. Should they have had their dogs fixed? Heck yes.
All I know from my experience is that I gave a small little (healthy) puppy a chance at a good life and a loving home and the the return I get will far outweigh any cost I paid for my dog. My whole purpose of my post was not necessarily promote pet stores, but to bring awareness that all animals need a home. Before we got our dog, we were not desperate to get a dog right away, but were going with the thought that if the right one came along we would consider it and the right one just happen to come at a pet store and that is why we did not broaden our search area throughout the province and beyond.
I know that if I didn't buy my dog at a pet store ,I wouldn't stop that fact that there are puppy mills and people in it for profit. I actually unfortunetly consider what I could be supporting when I purchased our girl (hindsight is 20/20) , I just wanted to be able to take care of her and give her a home because I cared.

cpietra16
January 8th, 2006, 06:38 PM
dont get me wrong...i totally understand and couldnt agree with you more, but i can help but feel sorry for these puppies that are there...they need a home too!

...and that is exactly what the petstores what you to feel! I just don't go in any pet store that sells animals. I also try to pass on the word about where the "little doggie in the window"comes from.

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 06:39 PM
Correction from previous post

I actually unfortunetly didn't consider what I could be supporting when I purchased our girl (hindsight is 20/20) ...

t.pettet
January 8th, 2006, 06:49 PM
There is a very large risk concerning the health of puppies purchased from a pet store as the majority of these pups are in-bred products of a puppy mill where inner breeding (father-sister etc.), old, mal-nourished, sickly dams produce 2 or more litters yearly. You don't actually know where the pups really came from as the paper-work is bogus. By buying one of these pups not only are you contributing financially to the low-lifes who USE dogs purely for profit, you could end up with heart-break and a very genetically unhealthy dog that unless you spend $$$$ on will never be sound or have a normal existence. I rescued a 3 mo. old pom from a mill that was put out of business by the authorities and had to have a hip replacement done on her when she was 6 mos. old. Hip problems are basically unheard of in this breed and she also has a obcessive/compulsive disorder and though I love her dearly and she will stay with me till the end, had I known of her medical problems and what she has to deal with on a daily basis, I don't feel she should have been brought into this world, especially for the sake of profit.

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 07:04 PM
I am pretty confident that our dog did not come from a puppy milll as it has been brought to my attention that puppy mills usually breed pure breds and or a cross of two dogs (special breeds) NOT dogs with 3 or 4 different breeds in them (like ours). I prefer a mixed breed anyways as they seem to have less health problems that are common to some pure breds when they get older.

raingirl
January 8th, 2006, 07:08 PM
Puppy mills will breed anything that moves, if it will bring money. If they have a female in heat, and a mixed male available, they will breed. Anything to make money.

BMDLuver
January 8th, 2006, 07:12 PM
I am pretty confident that our dog did not come from a puppy milll as it has been brought to my attention that puppy mills usually breed pure breds and or a cross of two dogs (special breeds) NOT dogs with 3 or 4 different breeds in them (like ours). I prefer a mixed breed anyways as they seem to have less health problems that are common to some pure breds when they get older.
Don"t be so confident about that. One bitch can be impregnated by more than one dog during her peak cycle thus resulting in a mutt that looks like 3 different dogs.

Here's Bubbles, I'm sure he wishes people didn't buy from pet stores or back yard breeders... fyi... he's a bichon poodle cross..

raingirl
January 8th, 2006, 07:14 PM
just go to google and search the word puppymill, and click on the images option.

I saw a stat saying that 98% of dogs in pet stores come from puppy mills. Only small family run, small town stores rarely do.

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Unfortunetly I can't change the fact that I got my dog from a pet store and I hope people don't hold that against me. My wife had gotten some history from where our dog came from and I am Pretty Confident that our dog did not come from a puppy mill. Like I said earlier, not all dogs come from puppy mills and I am sure that some pet stores (but not all) do some sort of background check as to where these puppies come from.

Lucky Rescue
January 8th, 2006, 07:28 PM
I am pretty confident that our dog did not come from a puppy milll

Do you think anyone who cares about their dogs would be breeding mutts and selling them to strangers at pet stores - never knowing or caring where their puppies end up? Considering there are 120,000 homeless dogs on Petfinder, many of them end up in shelters.

Every time you buy a pet store puppy, you are directly putting money into the pockets of the people who do to animals what was done to the dog posted by BMDLuver. You are responsible for this terrible abuse.

Anyone who really wants a dog is willing to wait longer than "a couple weeks" to find the right one and not subsidize puppymillers.

The only way to stop the abuse is not to buy petstore puppies. Do not patronize petstores who sell puppies and kittens and tell them why you refuse to shop there. Try to eliminate the "gotta have it right now" attitude.

It took me months to find the right dog for me. At no time did I consider giving my money to animal abusers to help them continue what they do.

BMDLuver
January 8th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Unfortunetly I can't change the fact that I got my dog from a pet store and I hope people don't hold that against me. My wife had gotten some history from where our dog came from and I am Pretty Confident that our dog did not come from a puppy mill. Like I said earlier, not all dogs come from puppy mills and I am sure that some pet stores (but not all) do some sort of background check as to where these puppies come from.
You bought a dog from a pet store, you can't change that now however, you can better understand and not advocate for pet stores by thinking of a few things:
Each puppy that goes out of a petstore was either from an unwanted litter, a mill or a byb.

By buying that puppy you have enabled the "family" whose dog got knocked up to have a quick fix for not spaying.

By buying a puppy, there is one more spot to fill, one more litter needed.

By buying a puppy from a petstore, the owner of the petstore got richer by doing SFA to that puppy other than maybe a vaccination if it was lucky and some cheap wormer.

Please don't make light of a puppy store purchase or try to justify it. I'm not blaming you for having done it but rather for still not seeing how wrong it is. Rescue them for a couple of years and I'm pretty sure you won't be able to stomach another pet store puppy purchase.

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 07:39 PM
We didn't have the "gotta have it right now attitude". As I stated earlier I we looked ( I said weeks earlier but I had been wanting a dog for about 2 years) for awhile. We spent some weeks doing some more serious looking and the shelters did not have the dog we wanted. Yes there were puppies but I did not want a yellow lab or g. retriever because I did not want a 80-90lbs dog running around my house. The fact is is that I gave a dog a home where most people would not.
No, I am not going to promote a pet store just because thats where we got ours. That was not our first choice. We tried the shelter/rescue thing but I just did not work for us at the time.

BMDLuver
January 8th, 2006, 07:52 PM
We did start however by looking at shelter lists in our area for a puppy to adopt. We wanted a puppy that would grow up to be a medium size dog (my wife wanted a yellow lab or g. retriever; i wanted a beagle). After weeks of looking we did not find the type of dog we were looking for. We did not want to have to travel around the province looking either. Most of the dogs were mature and at the time there did not seem to be alot of puppies.
We tried the shelter/rescue thing but I just did not work for us at the time.

See, this sounds very much like "gotta have its" to me.

You won't convince 90% of us that you did the right thing really but rather I think you are trying to justify and convince yourself.

Buying from a pet store does not equal rescuing in any way shape or form.

LM1313
January 8th, 2006, 08:01 PM
I know it's heartbreaking seeing those puppies in the pet store and I'm sure everyone here wishes they could find a loving home. But the sad truth is that every time one of those puppies is bought, the greedy puppy millers breed another litter out of a tired, caged bitch and another puppy is plunked down to take its place in the window.

To stop the puppy mills, puppy milling will have to become unprofitable, illegal, or both. Sadly, they are currently legal in some areas (or illegal but not caught) so we must do our best to make them unprofitable. I don't condemn you for what you thought of as "rescuing a puppy". But you have to understand that by rescuing one you have made it worthwhile to keep the poor bitch trapped in a miserable and loveless life and to pump out more puppies without a rest.

I would be very surprised if your puppy didn't come from a puppy mill. Recently "designer dogs", aka mutts, are "in", so it's entirely possible they would churn out mixed breed dogs.

When the get to big or sick, they will probably be dumped at a local shelter or pound, where you can adopt them for about one tenth of the price!

If they are lucky. We had a discussion about this on another board I'm at.

The mall near me has them destroyed if not picked up in 1 month. I hate that place and never want to go there

Luckily where I live it is illegal to sell dogs and frowned upon to sell cats. A pet store my sisters friend worked at used to take everything from cats to rats to parrots out the back, in bags and just smack them against the wall if they were ill, injured or too old. It was nicknamed the 'death wall'.

Kittens and other animals were then tied in the bags and just left often to bleed to death. Nice. Luckily my sistersfriend caught the owner at it, she left and reported them, they were closed down soon after and the shop has been replaced by a furniture stores (this was a big well known shop).

Every kitten or puppy you buy from one of thosepet shops means another pitiful puppy mill dog is put through another breeding to replace that puppy. You are paying people to abuse animals when it balls down it. You might save one puppy, but your killing a whole load of others.

I had a friend at my last job that bought a puppy from the mall pet store. I forget what it was, some kind of Yorkie cross I think. It was bred too small, so much so that as she started to grow, her bones were breaking. They eventually had to put her to sleep as the growing process was just too painful for her. I avoid the pet stores in the mall because I know how hard it is for me to see all those animals and to know that they may never get the chance to be loved and cared for properly.



Reasons not to support pet stores that sell dogs and cats.

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 08:02 PM
I don't need to convince myself of anything. I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I have a dog bought from a petstore that was the wrong way to get one. I now expect no respect for that . But I would like a little credit for the fact that I have taken the time ( as well as most animal owners) to love and care for an amimal (actually 4) in a world where there is so much cruelty and neglect no matter where the animal came from. I guess I have more heart than brains.

LM1313
January 8th, 2006, 08:05 PM
I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I have a dog bought from a pet that was the wrong way to get one.

As long as you understand that now, no one will have a problem with you. No one is going to blame you for feeling sorry for a puppy--we all feel sorry for those puppies! :) And I know there are other board members who've bought puppies from pet shops before they knew better.

~LM~

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 08:08 PM
As long as you understand that now, no one will have a problem with you. No one is going to blame you for feeling sorry for a puppy--we all feel sorry for those puppies! :) And I know there are other board members who've bought puppies from pet shops before they knew better.

~LM~

Thanks. I hope to have this dog for a long time. This may be the last dog I ever have but If there is a next time, I probably would consider a mature dog from a shelter if I did not want a puppy. I wasn't exppecting to open such a large can of worms. I guess I better hide for awhile. :)

BMDLuver
January 8th, 2006, 08:10 PM
CJ05, no one is questionning your ability as a pet owner but you brought a very heated topic up so you can't expect those of us in rescue to applaud the decision to purchase from a pet store. Your dog is one of the lucky one's but maybe the rest of the litter wasn't so lucky. Many of us have purchased from a petstore over the years, not being knowledgeable about how that affects each and every other dog. But once you become educated about it, then repeating it is a whole other ball of wax. The idea is education and with that knowledge the ability to help correct the situation. This is the point in pro rescue arguments and the need for pet store legislation. If there were no petstores, there would be a great reduction in the volume of unwanted animals we see daily.

mona_b
January 8th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Ditto on what everyone else has said.

Just wanted to add that the ONLY reason I will go into a pet store that sells puppies is to educate them.I ask them if they know what a puppy mill is,or a BYB...I tell them that if they have means of a comp,to look up Puppy Mills.I tell them to check out the local SPCA.There they can REALLY save a life.And their money goes towards s/n,vaccines that are needed,microchipped.

My question is,how much did you pay for this pup?

I prefer a mixed breed anyways as they seem to have less health problems that are common to some pure breds when they get older

Not true at all....Mixed breeds still inherit the same health problems as a purebred.Your pup can still end up with Hip Displasia,or Elbow Displasia.Any any other of the health/genetic issues these three breeds have.

A friend of mine has a Lab/GSD mix that just had a hip replacement done.This due to hip displasia.Heath problems are just as common in mixed breeds as they are in purebreds.

CJ05
January 8th, 2006, 08:57 PM
I paid $240 for our puppy. Far less than the pure bred lab in which we were on a list for from a breeder. I wouldn't have paid anymore for a dog at a pet store, because I know most are way over priced especially the pure breds.
I do respect everyones opinion but I take a little offence to the "gotta have it right now attitude" comment. I almost guarantee if we had not been near that store on that particular day, that we probably would not have any dog today and I would not be part of this forum. We knew we would only get a puppy in the spring time anyways and not any other season. Yes, I was on a list for a pure bred yellow lab until I found out the size of the parents and declined. This is just the way things worked out and I did go to that store and did find the dog that I had my mind set on.
On a lighter note, I also may not have had a dog right now because my wife and I found out that we were pregnant the day after we got her. That would have changed everything. But I do not regret it one bit and now I know that my son will have a dog to grow up with.

LavenderRott
January 8th, 2006, 10:53 PM
I don't know about Canadian laws, but in the states, there are laws about where pet shops can get their puppies. Puppies come from USDA registered brokers that get their puppies from USDA registered breeders. Not all USDA registered breeders are puppy millers but - and this is one big but - I really don't care how clean a kennel is that houses 300,400 or 500 dogs, I think that making a living off of the uterus of another living being is reprehensible.

I worked at a pet store that sold fish and birds for a while. The birds were bred in the basement and since it was my job to care for them, I can promise you that they were well fed and cleaned daily. Anyway - the owner of the store talked to me about adding puppies to her inventory and showed me the paperwork that she had from Hunt Corp to get her started. Hunt Corp. is the largest puppy broker in the U.S.

It is like ordering girl scout cookies! You have a list of breeds and you pick what you want to order by breed and sex! There are several different designer breeds listed - again, choose mix and sex and Hunt will get you the pups.

Now, if you really think you saved your pup, that is your business. But I can promise you that at the end of the day, someone looked at that list and put in an order for another puppy to fill that empty cage. And if you think for a minute that a commercial breeder cares for their dogs - I leave you with this:

I know a woman who has a dachshund. The first time she saw it it was 6 months old and sold at auction to a USDA breeder as a breeding bitch. The second time she saw it, was at another auction priced a bit higher because she was now a proven breeding bitch - having had puppies. She got the dog from a rescue group that bought the dog at auction to stop her breeding days. Oh, did I mention that this dog was born deaf and with no eyes?

Bushfire2000
January 9th, 2006, 12:02 AM
CJ05 I also bought a dog from a pet store (I no longer go to pet stores that sell puppies)
However, Lacey is a dream, she will be 6yrs old in February and I've never had a bit of trouble healthwise with her.
The pet store I bought from did not get the puppies from a puppy mill. I know who bred her and even though she was a mix breed I did receive a 1 year guarantee.
I do not believe that only purebred dogs are good dogs. After all they were all "designer" dogs to start with.

LM1313
January 9th, 2006, 12:07 AM
There will always be enough irresponsible people around letting their dogs breed indiscriminately to supply dogs. Education can make a dent in the surplus of unwanted animals, but it will never take to the point where we have a lack of dogs. Especially considering how many puppies can be in a litter . . . Remember 101 Dalmations and the litter of fifteen puppies? It was based on a real life litter that the author's dog had. FIFTEEN puppies from two dogs!

I also am fond of mixed breeds and have never had a purebred. But I don't think it makes any sense to pay big money for them.

~LM~

Inverness
January 9th, 2006, 12:42 AM
CJ05 I also bought a dog from a pet store (I no longer go to pet stores that sell puppies)
However, Lacey is a dream, she will be 6yrs old in February and I've never had a bit of trouble healthwise with her.
I find that a lot of the attitudes on this forum are very "big city" they do not relate to my rural lifestyle.
The pet store I bought from did not get the puppies from a puppy mill. I know who bred her and even though she was a mix breed I did receive a 1 year guarantee.
I do not believe that only purebred dogs are good dogs. After all they were all "designer" dogs to start with. My very first dog was listed by the vet as a cockapoo(he wasn't it was the vets idea and only for identification purposes). That was at least twenty-five years ago. Now I see advertisements for CKC reg Cockapoos, these were a mix how did they become a breed?
My point being that who are we to condem others for breeding dogs, if they do it with care and consideration for the animals. And I do not for a minute support puppymills because they are only in it for the dollars. But I would have given anything to have the wonderful temperament and companionship of my first dog bestowed upon others (he was neutered)
I belive that most pets should be spayed/neutered but I also don't think I should have to pay thousands of dollars to have a puppy/dog. If only the best of the best are breeding then where will the pets come from? and who would be able to have one?

Guys, I think we're not understanding each other and so everyone is missing the point. I think nobody is questionning the care you are all providing your pets. The question is entirely ETHICAL and based on the concept of PROFIT over living creatures. When purchasing a puppy from a petstore, you have one and only one certainty: someone is making money. Sometimes, yes, the pups come from an accidental breeding and the pups were well taken care of in a family environment and we could discuss indefinitely if they were properly socialized, what the parents' temperaments were, what they were fed and at what age the pups were weaned. Maybe those pups came from a puppy mill and this is a big time nightmare. This is something nobody actually realizes until you have seen it with your own eyes - it's a little like famine in Africa. You don't like seeing in on tv but you never ever get close to understanding what it really implies if you haven't been there. But besides these considerations, what is WRONG is that the petstore is making MONEY from the transaction. Not a single petstore will give you a pet away or sell it to you for the price of the shots and spaying/neutering (however they do almost give hamsters away and make money with the accessories...). Selling an animal is WRONG because animals are not ours to OWN. They are not to be traded, they are not to be auctioned, they are not to be looked at in terms of monetary value.

Now if you go to what we consider as an ethical breeder. You say you don't want to pay 500 $ for a dog. If you research this carefully, you will find that the few responsible ETHICAL breeders out there do not make a single PENNY out of their breeding activities. In fact, they have to work hard to find enough money to support those activities. Some people believe there should not be any breeding activities until our shelters are empty and there are no more homeless pets. This is a different issue. But a TRUE ethical breeder will spend a fortune in acquiring the right dogs to breed, test them for all genetic defects, feed them properly, train them, show them to have them assessed according to the breed standard, hopefully have them work at what they are bred for (herding, retrieving, protecting, etc.) and have them compete to assess their working abilities, then if the dogs measure up to the standards required to breed them, do so and redo all the testing on the pups. By the time all the veterinary care as been given, and all money spent in travelling, accessories, etc, has been taken into account, you will see the breeder has spent much more than what he will ask you for in return. No profit is made there. All is done in the respect of the animal.

Remember. We have domesticated the dog and have made it a slave to whatever we do to him. Dogs depend on us completely and this is our own responsibility. Why would it be more ethical to exchange money for an animal than it is for a human ? We owe animals enough respect to REFUSE to exchange dirty money for them...

Prin
January 9th, 2006, 12:43 AM
I showed this guy to my boyfriend yesterday: He'll break your heart (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=22680)
And I asked him, "You see his eyes? You can see that there is love there and there is a great doggy in there. He just got handed such a crappy body."

And that is the difference between pet store puppies and well-bred puppies. Great breeders are striving for better puppies. Healthier puppies. Puppies that they know will have less chance of suffering from genetic disorders. Back in the day, before DNA testing and health testing, mixed breeds might have been healthier. Not anymore. Now, if both parents test negative for certain known genes that cause diseases, the offspring won't have them. With mutts, it's a mix-and-match game. Two different breed dogs from amazing breeding aren't likely to have unhealthy offspring, but with two dogs from unknown backgrounds, it's basically a lottery of genes. You never know what can come out. Owning a mutt is not a bad thing (it's a great thing), BREEDING mutts is.

Buying from a petstore isn't horrible unless you KNOW what is going on. If you come here, learn about breeders and pet stores and then go out and buy a dog from a pet store, yes, you are a horrible person. But if you unknowingly bought a dog at a petstore and promise to never do it again, you are the type of person that really fits in on this board.

Sure, they're sad in their glass cages, but so are the 120 000 dogs on petfinder. They have FAR less chance of finding a home than a baby with fluffy fur and bright lights on him in a high traffic store. Some dogs have been sitting in no-kill shelters for YEARS and still are not adopted. That's sad. Some dogs are so special and are waiting to be discovered, but sadly they never are.

The solution is boycott and be loud about it. Educate everybody you know. The less pups are bought, the less will be bred. If we can't have the law on our side, we can use our buying power instead.;)

Prin
January 9th, 2006, 12:51 AM
Inverness, you made me realize- the argument here, it should be pointed out, is not that the dogs should never have homes or that mutts are bad dogs. The argument here is that people should not be breeding these dogs on purpose (or by accident) and selling them for profit. And we should not support them treating dogs in this manner.

The byb who accidentally had a litter should screen his own puppies' prospective owners, draw up a contract and vaccinate/deworm, etc the pups before sending them to their new homes. Allowing your puppy to go home with a stranger shows you have no regard for its life.

BMDLuver
January 9th, 2006, 05:17 AM
The byb who accidentally had a litter should screen his own puppies' prospective owners, draw up a contract and vaccinate/deworm, etc the pups before sending them to their new homes. Allowing your puppy to go home with a stranger shows you have no regard for its life.
Let me just add that the pups should also be s/n before going to their new homes and then the cycle will not continue with the next generation.:)

Beautygirl
January 9th, 2006, 05:35 PM
So sad to see what these dogs go through. It makes me so mad to see that people could treat animals this way. We adopted our little angel from the SPCA. Unfortunately the previous owners did not have her spayed and she had a litter of puppies (cutest little things), but we brought the momma home with us. She already has her appointment made to be spayed. No more puppies for her. :love:

CJ05
January 9th, 2006, 05:36 PM
In conversation with my wife; whom had gotten more information about our dog when we got her; the owners of the puppies did not sell them to the pet store (but yes the store did make profit) and they were kept in the house and well taken care of. Not all of the litter ended up at the store as some had found homes. Our dog was vacinated and dewormed before we got her. I do realize that this is not the case for all dogs and some are brought up in less than ideal conditions and/or the owners are doing it for a profit. The owners may have given the dogs to the pet store because in most cases if they were taken to a shelter , and definetly dog catchers, then there are sometimes admittance fees (maybe they didn't want to pay that;who knows).
I personally was not so aware of puppy mills and such before we got our dog but now understand where people are coming from. When people meet my dog for the first time I introduce her like a family member and do not advertise the fact that she came from a pet store and I have encouraged others to look at shelters, so a I 'm not all pro pet store.
I know of some individuals that love dogs and they breed pure bred labs in a very good environment. They do make a profit and if they didn't they probably wouldn't do it. Sad but true. It sometimes crossed my mind that all dogs and kitties should be adopted out much like humans but unfortunetly thats not the case.
I would like to thank people for their insight. Its certainly opened my eyes. This is an excellent forum and I do value the opinions of others. Just hope that I'm not a horrible person. I do however look ahead and will not dwell on the past.

CJ05
January 9th, 2006, 05:41 PM
Let me just add that the pups should also be s/n before going to their new homes and then the cycle will not continue with the next generation.:)


Unfortunetly puppies can't be s/n until they are at least 5-6 months old depending on the breed.

Lucky Rescue
January 9th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Unfortunetly puppies can't be s/n until they are at least 5-6 months old depending on the breed.

Who told you that? It's absolutely not true. Rescues with litters of puppies s/n them before they are adopted which can be at 8 - 12 weeks old. More and more vets are doing these pediatric spay/neuters to try and stop the overpopulation.

A 6 month old puppy of a toy breed is capable of getting pregnant at 6 months old, and should always be spayed before adoption.

Letting puppies go to new homes intact is highly irresponsible. I know petstores do this, because s/n would cut sharply into their profits, or they would have to price the puppies out of range to make up for it.

BMDLuver
January 9th, 2006, 07:59 PM
Unfortunetly puppies can't be s/n until they are at least 5-6 months old depending on the breed.
Incorrect information. They can be done at 4lbs or 8 weeks.

mafiaprincess
January 9th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Many petstore puppies have screwed temperments as well. While it isn't the dog's fault, it can be increadibly hard to give that dog a life, and many get dumped in the spca.

In supporting petstores, you are supporting many negative things.

As sad as it is to think about what may happen to that dog if it isn't bought.. It really is for the good of things to have not bought it, and to help shut down petstores from having a market to sell to.

CJ05
January 9th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Sorry my mistake. Actually alot of vets will not do s/n until pups are almost close to sexual maturity 5-6 months. Yes they can be done at 8 weeks. I only know one vet in our area s/n this early. My vet said her earliest one she ever did was 16 weeks.
I agree, dogs that spend too much time in a pet store will have temperment problems. Fortunetly ours was only there for 3 days.

BMDLuver
January 9th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Sorry my mistake. Actually alot of vets will not do s/n until pups are almost close to sexual maturity 5-6 months. Yes they can be done at 8 weeks. I only know one vet in our area s/n this early. My vet said her earliest one she ever did was 16 weeks.
There is a difference between a privately owned animal and a rescue animal. The necessity for the rescue animal to be altered is greater than the privately owned animal who religiously shows up for all it's vaccinations and discusses optimum age provided it has a responsible pet owner. Shelters can't take that chance and should not ie. SPCA's, HS etc.. Rescue recommendations and privately owned pets are two different entities when discussing this with a vet.

mona_b
January 9th, 2006, 10:20 PM
I know of some individuals that love dogs and they breed pure bred labs in a very good environment. They do make a profit and if they didn't they probably wouldn't do it

Well then this to me sounds like a BYB.....NO reputable breeder makes a profit.A good enviroment doesn't really mean much.

Reputable breeders breed to better the breed(whew,say that 5 times fast..LOL)


Well I am glad you can understand where we are all coming from.And thank you for redirecting others to go to a shelter.

And no you are not a horrible person...Like you stated before,you knew nothing about puppy mills..

We are here to help educate those who don't know....And I am sure you can now do the same....:thumbs up

xixvnajlavxix
January 28th, 2006, 04:25 AM
In Idaho, we're lucky enough to have a few pet stores, and the ones that pop up normally only sell hampsters and such. I don't think all pet stores are bad, infact, theres a few here that sells animals that wont be accepted by the IHS because of age (being too old, not too young) and such. Some pet stores here only sell the supplies for animals, and then have one or two chosen pets rescued from the society from the big E to be adopted.

Mom_Of_Two_Dogs
January 28th, 2006, 09:49 AM
I wish tehre was some sort of law that made it so only shelter dogs and cats (as well as rabbits, etc) can be adopted out from petstores in place of mill-bred animals, like how PetsMart, etc, adopts out cats/dogs.