Pets.ca - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans 

-->

Attention Kingston and Area Pitty owners

Invicta
December 3rd, 2005, 02:56 PM
SBTCC has just received a call from someone in Kingston that Kingston animal control are going to the homes of each and every registered "pit bull" owner and they are checking to see the dogs and whether they are spayed and neutered. Charges are being laid.

Keep your dogs safe everyone!!

Invicta

twodogsandacat
December 3rd, 2005, 09:42 PM
And so history repeats itself………………………..

"We had been in hiding for two years when a knock at the door shattered the jovial atmosphere."
Within seconds, two officers stormed their way in. Our friends had been denounced. Given no time to pack, they were marched into the street and taken to headquarters.

Prin
December 4th, 2005, 01:11 AM
You are not comparing BSL to the Holocaust, are you?

BMDLuver
December 4th, 2005, 07:20 AM
SBTCC has just received a call from someone in Kingston that Kingston animal control are going to the homes of each and every registered "pit bull" owner and they are checking to see the dogs and whether they are spayed and neutered. Charges are being laid.

Keep your dogs safe everyone!!

Invicta
See, I don't see what the problem is with that... there's been plenty of time given to comply with that law.. so if your pit isn't altered.. why is Kingston Animal Control to blame? They're following the law as it's laid out. Quite frankly, I think it's a good thing as then no "oopses" will occur and innocent pups won't end up being pts. It's sad that they are targeting on breed specifically but that's what has happened, so if you wish to keep your beloved family pet, why not comply with the law and have it altered? Then it doesn't matter who comes knocking on the door checking, right?

bluntman
December 4th, 2005, 08:03 AM
Sorry, BMDLuver but I have a big problem with what Kingston animal control is doing. Your home is your castle, your only refuge from the outside world and what goes on out there, and NO ONE has the right to pry into your privicy over a stupid little law like this one. I agree pets should be nutterd/spayed, but some people can't/won't or are waiting for this nightmare to end, thats there bussiness and I wish them the best of luck. If they get caught out in public breaking this law then animal control can do as the law allows, but deliberatly targeting pit bull owners in there own home is crossing a line that should not be crossed, and there is NO way I would allow them in my house, bill 132 or not. No one wants to see any pit bulls pups pts, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this, and invadeing a persons home is the wrong way. It's not a point of haveing someting to hide, it's a matter of princeable, you should not be targeted for the type of dog you own, but for the type of owner you are. This is one of the main reasons I did not regsiter my dogs as pits, The law is to vauge and it gives to much power to people who may abuse this power to satisfy there own pregidesess against law bideing pit owners, the same way Byrant has.

twodogsandacat
December 4th, 2005, 08:08 AM
You are not comparing BSL to the Holocaust, are you?

The NKVD knocking on a door in St Petersburg in 1930
The Republican Guard knocking on a door in Baghdad in 1988.
The Stasi knocking on a door in East Berlin in 1970.
The Chinese secret police knocking on a door in Peking yesterday.
The Chilean secret police knocking on a door in Santiago in 1975.

All acceptable but: the Gestapo knocking on any door in Europe in 1943 and somebody would get offended? Why is it that one can see these acts as being part of a nazi like state and somebody can so quickly start down the path that a comparison to nazi occupied Europe is so wrong?

Remember before you answer the question above that it was you who made the conclusion based on the two short sentences which provided no time or place references not I.

If I called Bryant Stalin, Mao or Kim Jong Il I wouldn’t hear a peep. Call him Hitler and off we go.

Like it or not we are now living in a police state. When historians look back at how the laws in Ontario went to hell I wonder how many will realize that the litmus test for this kind of policing was brought in – over a dog.

Please name one other provincial law where officers of the state (because that’s who they are) knock on your door to see if you are legal. With close to fifty dead in Toronto due to gun violence and Bryant saying that many of these guns are stolen why aren’t they knocking on the doors of gun owners to see if their guns are safely stored…because gun owners would be - pardon the pun - ‘up in arms’.

BMD is correct technically these people are breaking the law but I don’t see too many other laws in Canada that are being so zealously enforced. Welcome to Europe (1940), Kaesong NorthKorea (today), St Petersburg (1930) or any other town in any other time where that knock on the door could come without warning.

Note: In order to not have this thread go to a point where it gets locked let’s not go down the nazi path. Just throw in your own favourite police state and avoid the holocaust scenario all together. The point here is that now people are living in fear of a knock at the door to enforce a law based on if your dog has something, which Michael Bryant doesn’t. With far more serious crimes being committed every minute of every day this is where somebody focuses their efforts. Sad.

BMDLuver
December 4th, 2005, 08:15 AM
When you register your dog with any city they ask the question is your dog altered and supplying an invoice showing the altering of the pet then enters that into the records. If your pet is not altered at the time then it is entered as fertile. At a later date, if the pet is altered you take a copy of the invoice to the city and it is registered accordingly. I find it pretty hard to believe that Kingston Animal Control will be knocking on doors of pet owners whose dogs are already registered as sterilized. I also rather doubt that they will be barging into people's homes but rather politely knocking on the door and asking for proof of altering. I wish every city were as diligent to altering pets. It would make everyone's life a lot simpler. Yes, they are targeting pit owners, however Kingston Animal Control did not make this law but are required by law to enforce it. It's unfortunate that it is breed specific targeting but you have the politicians and "some" members of the general public to blame for that.

twodogsandacat
December 4th, 2005, 08:26 AM
I also rather doubt that they will be barging into people's homes but rather politely knocking on the door and asking for proof of altering.

Kingston Animal Control did not make this law but are required by law to enforce it.

It's unfortunate that it is breed specific targeting but you have the politicians and "some" members of the general public to blame for that.

I also rather doubt that they will be barging into people's homes but rather politely knocking on the door and asking for proof of altering.

Trying saying NO. Then see how polite they are.

Kingston Animal Control did not make this law but are required by law to enforce it.

“we are only following orders”. Sorry I don’t buy it. With many other municipalities WAITING until somebody complains this is a conscious decision by somebody to go get those pit bulls.

It's unfortunate that it is breed specific targeting but you have the politicians and "some" members of the general public to blame for that

We’ll take care of the politicians in 2007. Where are the laws to take care of those idiots that are members of the general public that have switched to other breeds?

When I was buying dog food the other day the owner of the pet store said that there seemed to be a lot more Dobermans lately. I wondered what breed they would switch to first.

My mutt is part Doberman so this really concerns me if they become the next breed on the list.

Invicta
December 4th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Whether Kingston AC is just targetting certain people or whether they are hitting every house it doesn't matter. The person who contacted us said that she and some people she knows, plus others who have called her are all saying the same thing. They came to the door to check the paperwork and the dogs.

The VP of our Club lives in Kingston and hasn't received a visit yet but she knows about the situation.

There is one thing going to a home and asking politely to show papers but to produce a dog for inspection is not necessary. I realize it's pretty easy to see if a male has been neutered but a spayed female, it may not be so easy to tell. I know that both of my girls as they aged the scar faded. Does that mean non-medically trained personelle are going to make that decision?

If there hasn't been a complaint about you or your dog, why should they be there? I realize that the law states warrantless searches and seizures but does this include this kind of harrassment by AC? Definately a violation of my civil rights.

Currently, my family is in complete compliance with the law. The pups are licensed, chipped, have their shots, have a 6' privacy fence, and we've got the muzzles to produce if asked. However, they are both CKC reg'd show dogs and will be shown on a regular basis. We have sent the CKC letters of intent to show and have received confirmation that they have received said letters and confirm that they are. They have also been in their first show and we are keeping all paperwork from each show in our binder. So...what if AC shows up at my door and doesn't give a rats ass that my dogs are show dogs? Not all AC officers know the full extent of this law and its exemptions.

I know that there are a lot of non-bully breed people who support us and feel this law is barbaric. I thank them for that. We need all the support we can get. The question I have for those who don't necessarily support us and say "what's the big deal with spay/neutering and muzzling your dog" is this...Ask yourself how you would feel if AC showed up at your home and asked you to produce your dog for inspection. Ask yourself how you would feel to live in fear for your dog and family everyday. How would you feel if your 15 wk old puppies were barred from obedience classes because of how they looked?

twodogsandacat
December 4th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Whether Kingston AC is just targetting certain people or whether they are hitting every house it doesn't matter.

Correct it is a violation of your rights. That’s OK. This will be a loud message in May. Gun dealers have more rights than dog owners.

There is one thing going to a home and asking politely to show papers but to produce a dog for inspection is not necessary. I realize it's pretty easy to see if a male has been neutered but a spayed female, it may not be so easy to tell. I know that both of my girls as they aged the scar faded. Does that mean non-medically trained personelle are going to make that decision?

No. Before laying a charge they will need to gather proof. You should hopefully be able to provide a vets statement or bill.

If you don’t have proof then surgery would be the only option. If they want to check it for themselves I imagine they will need a court order or your permission to have the dog put under a knife to verify if it has been spayed. Oppose the court order and drive up cost. Then when the vet says that all is good….TFB that they just spent a chunk of cash.

If there hasn't been a complaint about you or your dog, why should they be there? I realize that the law states warrantless searches and seizures but does this include this kind of harrassment by AC? Definately a violation of my civil rights.

The warrantless search is only if there is an clear and present threat. Then they can enter your home without a warrant. I imagine that it would also only apply to what is in open view. In other words if you had a joint (I’m sure you don’t) in a drawer that draw should not be opened by them (unless you could fit a dog in there).

If animal control showed up at my door I would refuse them entry. When they return with a warrant and a police officer I would let them in.

Do everything you can to make this an expensive visit for them. They cannot penalize you if you have done nothing wrong for insisting upon a signed warrant. If they have increased costs every time they visit a home and find a perfectly behaved spayed\nuetered dog TFB.

We also need some confrontational cases of owners being harassed for the courts.

I know that there are a lot of non-bully breed people who support us and feel this law is barbaric. I thank them for that. We need all the support we can get.

You are welcome. If we don’t then how can our complaints be valid when they come for the breeds we own?

The question I have for those who don't necessarily support us and say "what's the big deal with spay/neutering and muzzling your dog" is this...Ask yourself how you would feel if AC showed up at your home and asked you to produce your dog for inspection. Ask yourself how you would feel to live in fear for your dog and family everyday. How would you feel if your 15 wk old puppies were barred from obedience classes because of how they looked?

Gun dealers, drug dealers and all the scum of the earth don’t fear government officials entering their home without a warrant. Even terrorists have more rights in Ontario. A pit owner now has fewer rights than these people? Anyone who doesn’t oppose this law based on the precedent it sets in violating charter rights may be in for a rude awakening when it’s their breed targeted. I hope you can find voices to complain loudly then. I also hope that by then everybody else silenced before you don’t just ignore you.

Oh and get a lawyer..............

Saradog
December 4th, 2005, 10:38 PM
If Kingston AC is checking only registered/licensed "pit bulls", they're wasting a lot of bloody taxpayers' money. If an owner has licensed his/her dog, the dog is likely speutered and obedience trained or at least well behaved.

This sounds like a real shell game to me. Something stinks here.

gdamadg
December 4th, 2005, 11:17 PM
What is happening in Kingston is over stepping the boundaries of the law. To approach someone on the street with their dog is one thing, but to do it on your private property is another. The same goes for your car, that is your private property.:mad:

I am starting to see a trend of absolute/non-absolute trust in the government. The last time I checked, it is the citizens of this nation that run it. It is good to question authority, if you don't they take advantage of the situation and use their power for personal gain (whether financial or idealistic). I have seen first hand what happens when the people in power take over and use the power to manipulate their ideals to the "people". Those knocks on the door that have been mentioned have happened many times in the past and continue today, all over the world. Why do you think that we send "peace keepers" to foreign countries? To protect innocent people and give them a chance to know the freedom that we HAD here. If animal control showed up on my door asking to see paperwork and inspect my dog; they better have that warrant and a officer of the law, or evidence that my dog is a direct threat to someone. Now with that being said, I am in the military, live on a military base, both of which force me to give up some of those basic rights of being a Canadian Citizen. The only officer of the law that can enter my home or search my car with out a warrant is a member of the Military Police. And even then, I know they would not do that unless there was a direct threat to National Security.

Sorry, I don't know if I went off topic or not.

Prin
December 5th, 2005, 02:04 AM
The NKVD knocking on a door in St Petersburg in 1930
The Republican Guard knocking on a door in Baghdad in 1988.
The Stasi knocking on a door in East Berlin in 1970.
The Chinese secret police knocking on a door in Peking yesterday.
The Chilean secret police knocking on a door in Santiago in 1975.

All acceptable but: the Gestapo knocking on any door in Europe in 1943 and somebody would get offended? Why is it that one can see these acts as being part of a nazi like state and somebody can so quickly start down the path that a comparison to nazi occupied Europe is so wrong?
Who said any of those were acceptable? And who is comparing BSL to any of those? You quoted Anne Frank and I don't think that is acceptable in this context. And according to the OP, they are checking to see if your dogs are spayed or neutered, not hauling them off to death camps by the millions. I think it trivializes the Holocaust, because in no way is BSL as severe and tragic a massacre as the Holocaust was. Sure, the pitties dying is tragic, but it in no way compares. It's enough to say that the enforcement of BSL is tyrannical and infringes on your rights and freedoms.

Georgiapeaches
December 5th, 2005, 02:22 AM
Yes, it does infringe on our rights and freedoms. It is also an extermination(maybe a more proper word description?) of certain types of dogs. BSL may infringe on our rights, but more importantly it is putting to death thousands of innocent dogs and pups for just having a certain appearance.

twodogsandacat
December 5th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Yesterday you posted 21 responses after the original before responding again to this thread. My guess is that you had to google search on that one sentence left in quotes. So yes you are right about the quote. Did you know for a fact though that it was Anne Frank when you first responded?

As for all the rest being acceptable. None of them are but if I had said it’s like “the NKVD knocking on a door in St Petersburg in 1930” sadly nobody would of objected.

It’s the knock on the door and the entering your home that is the issue here. I have not heard of the police knocking on doors to check for illegal activities without a warrant. That is because we live in Canada. The possibility of having that knock come without doing anything wrong should be scary to everybody. It doesn’t matter if it is to enforce a law, any law.

Without a complaint to act on the mere fact that somebody has taken it upon himself or herself to start hunting down the owners of pits shows just how quickly some agencies would take advantage of laws that are so poorly written that they violate what we consider basic rights in Canada. Police powers need to be controlled because the basic truth is that power can be abused.

No I was not comparing BSL to the holocaust I was comparing the basic Canadian right of protection from illegal searches to living in a time and a place where you have no rights. Nobody will take all your rights away all at once, as that is too obvious. They will steal them from you one by one.

From the postings on this thread I see that some are comfortable with the first grab. Do you not think that this isn’t all a test to see how the public will tolerate reverse onus laws and laws regarding searches without warrants? What’s next?

Invicta
December 5th, 2005, 09:01 AM
After looking into the situation a little more, it looks as though they are visiting the homes of people they believe to have intact animals. They are also visiting homes in which there have been complaints of any kind. The person who contacted SBTCC has been fostering quite a number of dogs and it is possible that AC decided to investigate the situation a little further even though there had not been any complaints made.

gdamadg
December 5th, 2005, 01:16 PM
"They are also visiting homes in which there have been complaints of any kind."

That's just another example of mismanagement of resources. I hope they are using their resources to follow up on any complaints, not just "pit" related complaints. This is just going to snow ball into something very, very scary.

The loss of life of any thing on a large scale is seriously wrong and yes it can be compared to the Holocaust. Did you know that in almost every country Germany took over, had volunteers from those countries join the SS (even Canadians volunteered)? In most of these countries there has been cases of genocide post WW2. It is not a new thing and is not strictly associated to that point in time. The Balkans, The Soviet Union, Rwanda, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the list can keep going. In all those cases it started with the people giving up some of the basic civil rights. I am not saying that it would end up like that here, but you have to put your foot down at some point in time.

Roxy's_MA
December 5th, 2005, 01:29 PM
I am no vet, but if the female has not been sterilized, how can they tell? Unless she is in heat of course.

I cant' believe they are invading privacy like that. If the cops come to your door they basically need a warrant to get in. What makes Micheal Bryants team of animal control officers above the law.

Prin
December 5th, 2005, 07:12 PM
Well, there should be a scar from the incision, but even then, you can probably pass off the belly button as the scar...

twodogsandacat
December 5th, 2005, 08:52 PM
I should clarify that I would have no problem with a law requiring spaying and neutering for all non- show dogs, in fact I would welcome them. By that I mean dogs that compete in some legal activity and may better the breed would be the only acceptable dogs for breeding.

I would prefer though that at least once the dog’s owner would have to provide proof to a certain location rather than having somebody knock on your door. We have mandatory emission tests in Ontario and I take my cars in. Nobody shows up in my driveway with a hose asking for my car keys and the key to the garage as well.

babyrocky1
December 5th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I am no vet, but if the female has not been sterilized, how can they tell? Unless she is in heat of course.

I cant' believe they are invading privacy like that. If the cops come to your door they basically need a warrant to get in. What makes Micheal Bryants team of animal control officers above the law. Bill 132, thats why were seeing him in court
:eek:

babyrocky1
December 5th, 2005, 09:22 PM
From the postings on this thread I see that some are comfortable with the first grab. Do you not think that this isn’t all a test to see how the public will tolerate reverse onus laws and laws regarding searches without warrants? What’s next? Whats next came from Bryants own mouth on legal briefs, reverse onus for people charged with gun crimes. Yes I know guns are a problem, innocent til proven guilty is still a more important concept, are we going to let this guy shread away at our democratic rights till they are completely non-existant, everytime there has been an issue were the public is afraid, he uses this! This is what we should be afraid of! Fear Mongering! You can all draw your own comparisons, having lived the way I have for the past two years in Ontario, I will just say this, I would not want to be a young man of colour in this environment! One of my friends is the mother of three young black men and she fears for their safety because of all the media hype about gun crime, she is afraid they will be harrassed because of their colour and were they live, can anyone blame her?? So some people dont have sympathy for us pittie owners, will they have sympathy for the innocent people rotting in jail because they cant Prove they are innocent or will people assume that because they are charged with a "gun crime" the deserve it and whoes next after that?