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What would you do?

Me and Kayla
October 25th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Here is a situation. Tell me what you would do. This will sound very confusing, but try to follow it. :D

My son and g/f rescue a beautiful Pittie from the HS when she is 6 mos. old. They couldn't keep her because they already had 4 other dogs that they had previously rescued. They gave her to my daughter and her b/f. At 18 mos. old, daughter and b/f put her back into the HS because they were not able to care for her. Two months later they get her back out of the HS. Officially they never owned the dog because ownership had not been transfered from my son to my daughter. My daughter's b/f put his signature and my address on the HS papers. Shortly after this time, all three of them moved in with me, because they could barely take care of themselves, let alone a dog.

In March/05, the daughter and b/f decide to move to Alberta. I was to keep the dog til they could arrange transport for her in a month. In June, it was clear that they were never going to get their act together enough to take the dog, so we had a discussion and it was decided that I would keep the dog. We had already bonded and I had been training her and had invested considerable time and money into her already. The b/f was supposed to sign her over and forward the release to the HS. (I had talked to HS about this). I licensed her shortly after that. I should also add at this point, that from the time the dog was 6 mos old, I have paid for absolutely everying (cages, mats, toys, leashes, collars, muzzles...etc etc) except for food while they had her.

HOWEVER, two weeks ago, the daughter and b/f split, she returns to Toronto, and he announces that he is driving to Toronto this week to pick up HIS dog. Needless to say...I don't plan on parting with her. It also turns out that he never did send in the papers to the HS.

Taking him to court is not an option. Expensive, and a waste of time. If he gets ahold of her he will take her to Alberta and we will never get him or her back here for a hearing. He'll hide her away out there.

If this was your situation, what would you do besides punish your daughter for letting the b/f sign the papers in the first place?

I'm heartsick about this.

I brought this into this forum, because I was hoping that there might be some way that I can turn the BSL against the b/f and make it work for me. A different twist than we are used to, I know!

Me and Kayla

seeker
October 25th, 2005, 08:52 PM
If you think there will be a confrontation.Board the dog at a kennel and don't tell your daughter where he is. I would not give up the dog , you legally own it and have spent time and money in the effort of caring for him . If buddy takes it back with him what are the chances of the dog ending up at a pound in Alberta ? He has already done it once and who knows if his next g/f will like dogs

Byrd
October 25th, 2005, 08:58 PM
When hubby and I separated the lawyer told me that if I had proof that I paid for everything, then the dog is legally mine.

Me and Kayla
October 25th, 2005, 09:00 PM
If you think there will be a confrontation.Board the dog at a kennel and don't tell your daughter where he is. I would not give up the dog , you legally own it and have spent time and money in the effort of caring for him . If buddy takes it back with him what are the chances of the dog ending up at a pound in Alberta ? He has already done it once and who knows if his next g/f will like dogs

That's the interesting part....Do I legally own the dog, if I have cared for her, paid all her expenses and have a verbal agreement to that effect? Can he show up at the door with the police and claim her, and force me to try to get her back through the courts? Or can I hold her and force him to seek court action to retrieve her? I don't have any worries about a judge giving me custody after he/she hears all the facts. I just know he will never show for court and I will never see her again if he gets his mitts on her.

Me and Kayla
October 25th, 2005, 09:04 PM
When hubby and I separated the lawyer told me that if I had proof that I paid for everything, then the dog is legally mine.

I could see that if it was my daughter claiming ownership of the dog, because they had a common law relationship. However, I think I am considered a third party in this.

Georgiapeaches
October 25th, 2005, 10:58 PM
Is she licensed in your name in the city of Toronto?

gottahavepets
October 25th, 2005, 11:05 PM
Possesion is nine-tenths of the law. The dog is in your possesion, you have paid all its expenses, I agree with the kennel idea. And don't fall for "I just want a chance to say goodbye" smells like dognapper to me. This almost happened to my brother although the g/f's family was going to put the dog down. I think what they were really going to do was sell him. Hope it goes your way. :fingerscr

Joey.E.CockersMommy
October 25th, 2005, 11:10 PM
Is it possible that he is coming to get the dog just to get to your daughter. It seems to me that his heart isnt really in the right place.
I think the right place for her is with you. :)

CyberKitten
October 26th, 2005, 12:12 AM
Why the sudden interest in the dog now? (It's a rhetorical question. I suspect his motive too - dseperations/divorces can be messy and he may be well be using the dog as a bargaining chip).

I would use his record against him. I am uncertain of the policy there but here, anyone who surrenders an animal to the local SPCA cannot adopt a new one. So, hopefully, they have this record at the HS. He may not have the paperwork but the HS has to have something on file. If his name is there for surrendering a dog,exp THIS dog, you are in a good position.

And since - alas but maybe good for you in this case - dogs are still considered property under the law and the old expression possession is 9/10 actually works here I think. Have all your recipts of purchases- esp major ones. If you have time, put together a scarpbook of the dog with pictures of her in your home and with you. (If you need it for court - he could go to Small Claims court if he is persistant but it really sounds like he just wants to be nasty about it). Be prepared!! And if you know when he is coming, make sure the dog is being cared for elsewhere on that day. You don't want him removing the dog!

Good luck! It may turn out to be just bluster since he does not sound all that stable - financially and in terms of having his life together.

Prin
October 26th, 2005, 12:43 AM
I would definitely get "rid" of the evidence while he's in town. Either kennel or a friend...

The only way you win is if you HAVE all the vet bills and receipts. You can't just say you did it and have no proof.

Jono
October 26th, 2005, 06:16 AM
How long do you need to put the dog up for? We've fostered for the EHS before, and if your dog is well behaved we would be happy to take him for a bit until this blows over.
How is he with other dogs?

PM me (I'll try to remember to start checking again) if you'd like.

Jono

BMDLuver
October 26th, 2005, 06:48 AM
If I understand correctly... the dog has been registerd at your address for 7 months.. he/she is licensed at your address... you've fed and housed the dog for 7 months... you were not paid for boarding the dog... under the innkeepers act, if they did not pay for food/lodging then the dog is yours. I would try that angle with him and say... take me to court. I highly doubt he will as it would really be a pain for him to have to come back to Ontario for a court date which I might add would most likely take 1 year plus to be heard in small claims.

mastifflover
October 26th, 2005, 07:59 AM
I agree with BMD, you seem to have all the rights to this dog. Let alone he is totally irresponsible and the courts are not going to turn over a dog (let alone a breed they consider dangerous) to a person with his track record. You should also let him know the amount that you have invested in the dog in financial terms and the amount of the cost of boarding her with you and if he does not have the cash don't bother showing up. When you start adding it up I am sure it will be in the thousands, also add in your time and training costs as well I am sure he will no longer be interested in the dog and if it your daughter he is trying to get back this is not the way to do it. I wish you luck and if he by chance does have the money then board the dog. I saw Jono offered but I will offer my place as well if you need it I have a very laid back English Mastiff who is 3.5 years old. Good luck the dog belongs to you. You are the only one who is responsible enough to own a dog.

Me and Kayla
October 26th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the offers and the advice folks. Jono...I have PM'd you.

Kayla is licensed to me. I have an online chat msg saved from him on July 21, giving me custody and stating that he was going to send the letter to the HS. I have all the receipts for food since I've had her and vets, equipment and training since the dog was 6 mos. old. In a court of law, he doesn't stand a chance. I know this. However, my fear is that he will show up here with the police and a piece of paper from the HS that has his name on it, and they will have the right to enter my home and remove the dog and give her to him. If that happens, then it doesn't matter if I do take him to court, he will have her 'gone' by then.

I do believe this is a 'spite' move against my daughter, but I need to be able to hold onto her until I can convince the powers that be that she belongs to me.

Me and Kayla

Lucky Rescue
October 26th, 2005, 10:14 AM
You don't need to take this guy to court - he needs to take YOU to court to get "his" dog back. Do you really think this loser is going to have the money, time and determination to do this?

The dog is yours. This guy dumped her once already at the shelter and would no doubt do it again. There is no proof (if I understand correctly) that the dog was ever his.

Even if he does show up with a paper claiming the dog, you in turn present him with an itemized bill of the all expenses you have incurred while "boarding" his dog and that must be paid before you will release the dog. You would be perfectly within your rights to do this.

I really don't think you have much to worry about.

Luvmypit
October 26th, 2005, 10:32 AM
Can you contact him before he even comes? Then you can possibly scare him out of it with telling him at the moment he has no rights and if he even wants to try he must go to court. Sounds like he may not be the smartest tool in the shed and you maybe can intimidate him with court, your price list and all the evidence you have that proves you have been caring for the dog. Also say that due to his track record at the HS his chances are close to nil.

So he can make the drive all he wants but he will leaving with either a court date that he has to come back for or he should come with the money to pay for all expense incurred by you. But for sure he will NOT be leaving with the dog.


GOOD LUCK!!!!

Me and Kayla
October 26th, 2005, 12:38 PM
You don't need to take this guy to court - he needs to take YOU to court to get "his" dog back. Do you really think this loser is going to have the money, time and determination to do this?

The dog is yours. This guy dumped her once already at the shelter and would no doubt do it again. There is no proof (if I understand correctly) that the dog was ever his.

Even if he does show up with a paper claiming the dog, you in turn present him with an itemized bill of the all expenses you have incurred while "boarding" his dog and that must be paid before you will release the dog. You would be perfectly within your rights to do this.

I really don't think you have much to worry about.

I researched a little and found out that if I want to enforce a verbal contract between him and I, that I am the one who has to initiate the court action. The only proof he has of ownership is the original piece of paper from the HS that gives him custody when he took her back out of the HS (which btw...I gave the money to my daughter so that she could get her back).

I don't want to present him with a bill because that would indicate that the dog is his and I was just boarding her. I would be afraid that if he managed to come up with the money then I would have to turn her over. The chances of him getting the money are slim and none, but I don't want to take that chance.

I have considered a trip back to the HS that housed her for that brief time to go over all the details with them, and see if I can enlist their support. I don't think the police would go against the HS on this issue. It's a long shot.

My greatest fear is of him 'grabbing' her and running. He would do this.

Me and Kayla

babyrocky1
October 26th, 2005, 05:36 PM
OMG Kayla and Me, after ll you have been through, thats nuts, I don't think he has a legal leg to stand on but Im woried about the dognapping scenario as well :eek: BTW I have met Jono and his wife, they are VERY nice people and experienced with Pitties! :)

doggy lover
October 26th, 2005, 07:32 PM
This guy sounds like a real jerk, thankfully your daughter is done with him, good ridance. I can't see him taking you to court to get the dog back, number one he doesn't have the money.
This got me thinking all Tuckers bills are in my hubby's name, vet bills, micro-chip and licence. But Tucker is all mine I have paid for every bill well except some of his food but who keeps those bills. But if my hubby left I guess he could say that Tucker was his :eek: Not that he would but its possible. He didn't want to get another dog after we lost Travis said that losing him was too hard. But thats life, so that is why I paid for everything because he was still not wanting a dog. But who loves his little boy now, even lets him ride in the front seat of the truck and tells me to leave him alone when I tell him off because he misbehaves. ;)

Me and Kayla
October 26th, 2005, 09:02 PM
OMG Kayla and Me, after ll you have been through, thats nuts, I don't think he has a legal leg to stand on but Im woried about the dognapping scenario as well :eek: BTW I have met Jono and his wife, they are VERY nice people and experienced with Pitties! :)

We just found out that the boyfriend hasn't left Alberta yet. We were originally told that he had left on Friday, hence we were expecting him at the door any minute. We now have about a week to work on alternate plans. I feel like I can breath again for a moment..lol.

Jono and I are just trying to work out the symantics, just in case. I haven't met them yet, but they are both definitely tops in my book for being so generous to help me out.

It's all rather amazing to me, that a year ago I was terrified of Pitbulls, and now I am hopelessly attached to the sweetest little pittie and have met so many great Pittie people, and have a ton of support. :)

Me and Kayla

Lucky Rescue
October 26th, 2005, 09:14 PM
It's all rather amazing to me, that a year ago I was terrified of Pitbulls, and now I am hopelessly attached to the sweetest little pittie and have met so many great Pittie people, and have a ton of support

Me too!!:)

happycats
October 26th, 2005, 09:24 PM
If you have the dog, wouldn't he have to take you to court to get the dog back.

I don't think the police would tell you to turn her over to him, I think they would tell him he has to take you to court to get her back. (a quick call to the police may be helpfull)

babyrocky1
October 26th, 2005, 09:40 PM
We just found out that the boyfriend hasn't left Alberta yet. We were originally told that he had left on Friday, hence we were expecting him at the door any minute. We now have about a week to work on alternate plans. I feel like I can breath again for a moment..lol.

Jono and I are just trying to work out the symantics, just in case. I haven't met them yet, but they are both definitely tops in my book for being so generous to help me out.

It's all rather amazing to me, that a year ago I was terrified of Pitbulls, and now I am hopelessly attached to the sweetest little pittie and have met so many great Pittie people, and have a ton of support. :)

Me and Kaylaha ha....I know what you mean, my whole life is now revolved around the bullie babys, good to hear he is still in Alberta, could all of this be empty talk? maybe all the pittie co-op members could greet him LOL

StaceyB
October 26th, 2005, 09:40 PM
Yes, I would call the police and ask them about this. I believe it would be considered a civil matter. Tell them that the dog was given to you by him 7 months ago and you have an email from him that states this as well as city registration and whatever else you have. See if he would be able to arrive at your home with or without police and take the dog. You should be able to call at any time. Let us know what you find out.
If someone finds a dog, after 10 days the dog is legally theirs I believe so maybe this could be covered in the same manner.
It will cost you an adoption fee but you could also go to the HS yourself and see if you could adopt the dog through them because you have already had the dog, paying all costs associated with her for the past 7 months. I would call before you go just in case it is different because she is a pit and I would call the police first.

Me and Kayla
October 26th, 2005, 10:25 PM
Yes, I would call the police and ask them about this. I believe it would be considered a civil matter. Tell them that the dog was given to you by him 7 months ago and you have an email from him that states this as well as city registration and whatever else you have. See if he would be able to arrive at your home with or without police and take the dog. You should be able to call at any time. Let us know what you find out.
If someone finds a dog, after 10 days the dog is legally theirs I believe so maybe this could be covered in the same manner.
It will cost you an adoption fee but you could also go to the HS yourself and see if you could adopt the dog through them because you have already had the dog, paying all costs associated with her for the past 7 months. I would call before you go just in case it is different because she is a pit and I would call the police first.

BAck in July, before he said he would give her to me, I phoned the HS to find out what my options were. They said that they had to check with their legal advisors and get back to me. About 4 days later they told me that if his name was on the original adoption papers, then the dog legally belonged to him. They did however, say that I would be entitled to sue him for the associated costs including a $25.00/day boarding fee, but that he could take the dog back. As I said though, if it goes to court, then I have a ton of additional information and his chances of keeping her are slim and none. Doggie knapping or forcing me to give her over to the police was my biggest worry.

Me and Kayla
October 26th, 2005, 10:27 PM
could all of this be empty talk? maybe all the pittie co-op members could greet him LOL

It COULD be babyrocky, but my daughter didn't think so. I'll check my sources in 3 days, and if he's still in Alberta then I think there is a good chance he's staying out there.

Keep your fingers crossed...LOL

Me

mona_b
October 26th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Who's signature is on the adoption papers as of right now?

Unfortunately if it's his name on the papers,then yes,the dog belongs to him.And it won't matter what you have gotten the dog while in your care,leashes,collars ect.All that means is he would have to reimburse you for all that.

I'm sure some of you will rememer this.

An eldery gentleman has a Dalmation.Goes back to Greece for a few months.Has someone take care of him while he is away.The dog only understands Greek.So the guy decides to take him to the HS.Someone adopts the dog.Loves the dog,provides for the dog.Well the original owner comes back from Greece to find out the dog was put up for adoption.To make a long story short,man from Greece gets his dog back.Why,cause HE is the original owner.And this did go to court.

Prin
October 26th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Yes, but that was because the person caring for the dog gave the dog away without the owner's consent. In this case, the OWNER is the one who forfeited the doggy.

happycats
October 27th, 2005, 07:01 AM
Yes, but that was because the person caring for the dog gave the dog away without the owner's consent. In this case, the OWNER is the one who forfeited the doggy.
Yes and he would have to be the one to take her to court to get the dog back! (and I don't even think a court would give her back) and I do believe it's a court matter and the police have no right to come into your home and remove "property" .

Me and Kayla
October 27th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Who's signature is on the adoption papers as of right now?

Unfortunately if it's his name on the papers,then yes,the dog belongs to him.And it won't matter what you have gotten the dog while in your care,leashes,collars ect.All that means is he would have to reimburse you for all that.


His signature is on the adoption papers. However, my daughter was also there at the time, and it is my address on the adoption papers. Also, I have an internet communication saved where he is giving me ownership of the dog. On the surface, it would appear that he has ownership, but if it goes to court, then I am pretty sure I can present a very strong case against him getting custody before me.

My daughter also found out last night that the reason he didn't leave on Friday to come get the dog was because he had gone on a 'drug binge' for 4 days and Overdosed, complete with seizures. Makes you wonder how poor little Kayla would have fared for the four days that he was 'lost in space'.

Me and Kayla

Me and Kayla
October 27th, 2005, 08:08 AM
An eldery gentleman has a Dalmation.Goes back to Greece for a few months.Has someone take care of him while he is away.The dog only understands Greek.So the guy decides to take him to the HS.Someone adopts the dog.Loves the dog,provides for the dog.Well the original owner comes back from Greece to find out the dog was put up for adoption.To make a long story short,man from Greece gets his dog back.Why,cause HE is the original owner.And this did go to court.

Hmmmm....if that is the case that the original owner gets custody back, then officially, my son is the original owner of that dog. She was given to my daughter (without) written documention, and then put into the HS by the boyfriend, and then awarded custody by the HS two month later back to the boyfriend. So in fact, he never had custody.

I will tell my son to find the original adoption papers, and sign her over to me. That should solve the problem then, shouldn't it?

babyrocky1
October 27th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Sounds good Kayla and Me, but, I cant see him taking you to court anyways and thats what it sounds like he has to do.

Gazoo
October 27th, 2005, 10:01 PM
HOWEVER, two weeks ago, the daughter and b/f split, she returns to Toronto, and he announces that he is driving to Toronto this week to pick up HIS dog. Me and Kayla


Do you really think this waste of skin will drive all that way and spend all that money to get this dog? I doubt it. If he shows up at your door threatening this and that.. call the cops.

If he threatens to get the dog again. Get a lawyer and send him a registered letter explaining that the dog is yours for all of the above reasons and that if he disagrees you and your lawyer will see him in court. It'll only cost a couple hundred bucks and often will scare away losers like this guy :thumbs up

mona_b
October 27th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Hmmmm....if that is the case that the original owner gets custody back, then officially, my son is the original owner of that dog. She was given to my daughter (without) written documention, and then put into the HS by the boyfriend, and then awarded custody by the HS two month later back to the boyfriend. So in fact, he never had custody.

I will tell my son to find the original adoption papers, and sign her over to me. That should solve the problem then, shouldn't it?

I doubt that's going to work about your son.Reason being is that he gave the dog to your daughter.Your daughter took the dog back to the HS.This means they had to sign papers giving the dog up.Then they go back and adopt her again.So more or less your sons name on the original adoption means nothing.And your son gave up the dog to someone else instead of taking the dog back to the HS.

As for the address part,well they did live with you.And unless you have proof of when they moved in,this can be an issue.

As for hiding the dog,I really wouldn't do that.It could get pretty ugly.Remeber,the dog is still in his name.


I'm tired,so I hope this made sense....LOL

Prin
October 27th, 2005, 10:46 PM
I hope you win and Kayla stays in her good home. :fingerscr :fingerscr :fingerscr

Me and Kayla
October 28th, 2005, 03:27 AM
As for the address part,well they did live with you.And unless you have proof of when they moved in,this can be an issue.

I'm tired,so I hope this made sense....LOL

Yes unfortunately! lol

They did not live with me when they took the dog out. They were both still basically homeless, living with various friends etc. They needed something stable, so they just told the HS that they lived with me. I'm really surprised that they released her with no proof of residency, but they did. They didn't move in with me until Jan/05.

Me and Kayla
October 28th, 2005, 03:34 AM
Do you really think this waste of skin will drive all that way and spend all that money to get this dog? I doubt it. If he shows up at your door threatening this and that.. call the cops.



He will definitely show up. I have no doubt about that. And chances are he is going to show up WITH the cops. This kid is a real piece of work. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. He's knows how to manipulate the system. He's been taking advantage of it all his life.

BullLover
October 28th, 2005, 09:19 AM
He will definitely show up. I have no doubt about that. And chances are he is going to show up WITH the cops. This kid is a real piece of work. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. He's knows how to manipulate the system. He's been taking advantage of it all his life.

Definately hide her with someone when he comes then.

tybrax
November 1st, 2005, 06:11 PM
sending heaps of good vibes goodluck :thumbs up from Australia.


tybrax and tyra

Me and Kayla
November 1st, 2005, 07:41 PM
sending heaps of good vibes goodluck :thumbs up from Australia.


tybrax and tyra

Thanks tybrax. :)

So far....still quiet on the home front.

Me and Kayla

mona_b
November 1st, 2005, 10:13 PM
Well when they brought her in the first time,they would have to have showed ID and an address.By chance would your daughters ID have your address on it?

Definately hide her with someone when he comes then.

Not only is this not an answer,but it will get her in a lot of trouble.He could have her charged with theft.And he sounds like he would do it too.

I suggest you go(not call) to your division in your area.Talk to them and explain everything to them from begining to end.Also,print out the convo you and him had.And take it from there. :)

Me and Kayla
November 2nd, 2005, 08:14 AM
Well when they brought her in the first time,they would have to have showed ID and an address.By chance would your daughters ID have your address on it?



Not only is this not an answer,but it will get her in a lot of trouble.He could have her charged with theft.And he sounds like he would do it too.

I suggest you go(not call) to your division in your area.Talk to them and explain everything to them from begining to end.Also,print out the convo you and him had.And take it from there. :)

My daughter didn't take the dog into the HS. He did. So it was his ID and their address at the time that was on it. (not mine)

I would only hide her as a last resort. If they charge me with theft then so be it. At least it would slow down the process until ownership could be legally established. The purpose of hiding her was to keep her out of his hands. The minute he has her, he will be in the car and out of the province in a flash. There won't be a remote chance of me finding her once he gets his hands on her.

As soon as I get wind of him leaving Alberta, I will be in contact with the police with all my information. I do not want to aggrevate this situation prematurely. His father is also planning on dropping off my daughter's belongings that he had put in storage to her on the weekend. I'm hoping to take that opportunity to enlist his support in dealing with his son. It's worth a try.

Me and Kayla