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Keeps whining can't run around

GuateChris
October 16th, 2005, 08:46 AM
Hi All, my dog Caleb got back from the vet 3 days ago after he was a bit poorly and had a bit of a big tummy. The vet said it was colic and gave him an injection and told me he would be fine, that was 3 days ago and he still starts crying when he tries to get up off the floor, crying in the night, and when he is stood up, and someone touches his back towards his tail he sits down with a wimper, this can't be right I think.

Can anyone tell me what It coult be, should I sit it out or take him back. He is eating normailly and drinking normally just not playing as he usually would, he would have been in the river everyday and be annoying everyone by getting them all wet by now if he was ok.

Thanks in advance for any help.

doggirl
October 16th, 2005, 09:55 AM
These are signs of pain - my opinion, a definite immediate return trip to the vet. I don't think anyone in their right mind would ride out a dog displaying these kinds of signs of pain. Gastrointestinal stuff can be very nasty too, and I recently spoke with someone whose dog began showing symptoms of illness, she called the vet and they recommended bringing the dog in, she tried to ride it out overnight and the dog died that evening having not seen a vet. If your dog is in this much pain something is going on, good chance something serious.

Did the vet give you a diagnosis? Colic is just a general term for stomach pain. Do you know what shot he gave your dog?

yoda900_ca
October 16th, 2005, 09:56 AM
Take him back to the vet or get a different vet. My sisters mutt for 2 days acted like this and on the 3rd day he started vomiting. I turned out he had a SOCK, yes a whole sock, blocking the end of is intestine. I was stuck about 4-6inches from the end. The vet found it on x-ray and was able to sedate the dog and go up the back side and pull it out. To this day she has no idea how her dog found and or ate that sock. Dogs can do some wierd stuff i think i'd want an x-ray just to be on the safe side.

doggirl
October 16th, 2005, 09:58 AM
Rereading your original post - personally, I'd try a different vet. Are you sure the vet said he'd be OK? Because vets can't see into the future, it seems odd. If he did then no question I'd go to a vet who would explain to me why my dog is ill and answer all of my questions, eg what should I do if xxxxx. Your dog is in substantial pain and you should've been told to bring him in straight away if something like this happened (mind you I think you should've called the vet the first day he was like this as well!).

BMDLuver
October 16th, 2005, 10:02 AM
If I remember correctly, Chris is a huge distance from a vet and it's the only vet around. I would definitely try calling the vet, explain the situation and most likely return to the vet as it sounds like more is going on than just "colic" which I assume the vet means bloat which leads to torsion and stomach rupture. Unless he/she defines "colic" as gastrointestinal problems. Either way, I think you'll have to make the trek back.

doggirl
October 16th, 2005, 11:02 AM
I don't feel comfortable assuming what the vet's idea of "colic" is - bloat, "gastrointestinal problems", etc. Colic is abdominal pain. It is a symptom, not a diagnosis. JMO, but I think Chris is entitled to a diagnosis and more info than what he's been given. In all fairness to the vet I also think that he/she could be more proactive as well.

I don't know how far Chris is, whereabouts are you at (town, state?)? Again JMO, but this dog still has colic, and Chris' description sounds like the pain is substantial...my feeling is this is not something that should be ridden out, and a dog displaying this severe pain should be getting pain relief...firstly because it could very well be life or death, and secondly because it's inhumane to allow an animal to suffer like this. Assumably there are advantages to living in an isolated area - maybe it's cheaper? But a disadvantage is having a long drive to the vet. I do believe that getting this dog veterinary attention immediately is necessary and has been since the dog first began showing these signs of pain having returned (or never having left).

This dog could very well die, and he is suffering at this point, but alive....you can't just leave this, whether the vet is a long drive or not.

BMDLuver
October 16th, 2005, 11:33 AM
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=142620#post142620

Chris is in Guatemala a 12 hour drive from the nearest vet. Must be very hard to have to wait for the drive.. I couldn't imagine as living here it's just a few minutes away to a vet.

I really hope the little pup is ok.

doggirl
October 16th, 2005, 12:49 PM
In that link he says he's 6 hours away, but he said something about a bus and then about driving, so I don't know what the situation is. I'm not implying he's being lazy, just saying that in response to his question, yes, I think the dog is in significant pain and needs to see a vet.

I realize it's not always easy to get to a vet, it can be very tough for people in N America too. People who don't drive, or who are disabled or whatnot. The vet also might be right next door but there are people who have financial constraints to the point that they may as well be 6 hours away. The bottom line is regardless of the obstacles, is the dog in a situation where he NEEDS to see a vet? I think he is.

BMDLuver
October 16th, 2005, 01:17 PM
The bottom line is regardless of the obstacles, is the dog in a situation where he NEEDS to see a vet? I think he is.
Never implied otherwise but I guess we'll have to wait to hear back from Chris. :)

GuateChris
October 16th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Thanks for your replies,

BMDLuver, yup you are right it is a very long way to the vet from here especially as there are only a few regular busses that go that way, and taking a sick dog on a 10 person mini bus ( which they put 16 on to ) is not very easy.

Doggirl,

I appreciate your opinions, and any help you can give will be very much appreciated,
but the vet I go to is the best vet in the town and my friend and his 2 labs only use him, there are others but of lesser standing.

You said "Assumably there are advantages to living in an isolated area - maybe it's cheaper? But a disadvantage is having a long drive to the vet." Yes thanks for that.

Guatemala is a 3rd world country, not a small town in the U.S.A you know.

In my post I said that the Vet is a 12 hour round trip, and that was by car, for me to do that trip on a bus with Caleb will be near impossible, but if I have to do it then I will.

I appreciate that you want the best for my dog so do I, and I think that you sitting there in your home with a good vet 30 mins away or whatever is great for you, but try and remember that some people are not as fortunate as you, and have a hell of a distance and mudslides to get past in order to get to the vet.

Ok my annoyed rant at Doggirl over,

His In's and Out's are all fine but his legs get a bit shakey when he stands, I am going on it being the stomach problem as the Vet told me it was. ( I don't know what the injection was ) and he told me to give him Dexametasona 0.5mg. Seems to be the all purpose round here.

He seems fine when On the ground, and when standing he played a bit this morning. But it is when he has to get back to his feet, he lets out a bit of a whimper, but when he is up he is ok.

Busses start at 7 am tomorrow, let me know what you think people, anyway of testing him for pain or for getting any clues.

Prin
October 16th, 2005, 01:49 PM
Can you call the vet?

GuateChris
October 16th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Yes I can call the vet, but it is Sunday so he won't be in the surgery.

justncase
October 16th, 2005, 02:31 PM
GuateChris: there are several things that can be given to babies who have colic( and they can also be given to dogs, garlic in moderation though) . Here are some:

One teaspoon of olive oil the first thing in the morning , on an empty stomach and then hold off feeding for about one or two hours.

Also, if you can locate garlic--garlic oil is best, one clove( if you don't have the capsules) or one capsule.

GuateChris
October 16th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Justncase, Thanks for your reply,

I thought that Garlic had the same affect as Onion and causes hemolytic anemia, and therefore should not to be given to dogs, but I think it has to be a high dose, but my dog is not that big will that make a big difference?

My mother actually told me to try a bit of olive oil on his food in the morning, but I will try the oil then wait for a while before feeding to see what happens.

He has been running around a bit this afternoon and has just had a bit more food and seems to be ok, just when he gets to his feet now, strange.

Will let you know what is happening tomorrow,

Thanks again all,

C&C

CyberKitten
October 16th, 2005, 05:24 PM
I have seen colic in babies but have only heard of puppies having it. I am not sure garlic is safe for dogs. Your puppy must be very young to have colic since it tends to occur in infants. (in human and canine babies!) And the vet I talked to today - after reading your post (I called her about somnething nonmedical) said that usually colic occurs in puppies while they are still with their mama and can occure because mama has not been able to stimulate bowel movements. Was your puppy taken from his mama too soon? It seems a bowel movement helps - does pumpkin work for puppies like it does for kitties?

And yes, colic is just a symptom of a digestive problem that is usually self limiting. Meaning it goes away without human or medical intervention.

However, she also said dogs who have colic may have something serious and it is a symptom of, lead poisoning for example. You really need to know WHY the dog has colic. But usually it is constipation and if you can help that, the dog should be fine. (unless he ate something he should not have).

I had to add costipation is also a symptom. You really need to find outr what is causing this - so maybe a vet visit would be helpful. I would call your vet tomorrow and ask him (tho I do not understand why he would diagnose colic without searching for the cause to be honest about my feelings) if it is safe to give the dog anything for it.

doggirl
October 16th, 2005, 06:06 PM
I appreciate that you want the best for my dog so do I, and I think that you sitting there in your home with a good vet 30 mins away or whatever is great for you, but try and remember that some people are not as fortunate as you, and have a hell of a distance and mudslides to get past in order to get to the vet.

Actually I said I was NOT implying you were lazy or whatnot, and kept getting back to the point that the description you were giving sounds like a dog in severe distress who does need to see a vet, for pain relief and because it could definitely be something life-threatening.

You are assuming a lot...distance is one of many obstacles to getting an animal to a vet. If you have no money, no credit cards, and nobody to borrow from, you have probably as many obstacles or more to seeing a vet than a distance barrier. And I have been in that position.

Regardless, as I said before I was not making a commentary on the dog's owner, I was replying to the question you asked about whether he should go back to the vet and "riding it out". Sorry it annoyed you, good luck with the dog.

justncase
October 16th, 2005, 06:22 PM
..... I am not sure garlic is safe for dogs....
............And yes, colic is just a symptom of a digestive problem that is usually self limiting. Meaning it goes away without human or medical intervention.But usually it is constipation .... I would call your vet tomorrow and ask him if it is safe to give the dog anything for it.


Colic isn't just a digestive or constipation problem(because a pet does not need to have either in order to have colic) and, as the link below points out, some of the causes can be life-threatening... so you may not want to wait and see if this goes away on its own. You dog needs something to relieve the discomfort whether it is provided by yourself or the vet.
Even if your puppy is not constipated, one vet felt that the encouragement of a bowel movement might relieve the pressure and offered:

"Rubbing the puppy's
stomach gently can be helpful. Using a warm wet washcloth or other soft
cloth to gently massage around the puppy's anus can stimulate a bowel
movement and relieve discomfort."

A dog owner offered this"

"You might also see if burping the puppy helps. You know, on your shoulder with gentle pats and very gentle rubbing on the upper back and shoulders.
Also try walking around for a bit with the puppy held comfortably on the center of your chest,
over your heart, doing what I like to call the granny bounce..that thing we do when we pick up or get handed fretful babies. Works for me. "

If garlic, in moderation, wasn't safe for dogs, I wouldn't have mentioned it:(Cyberkitten,....research?)

Dr. Wendy Wallner,DVM
"Garlic is safe for your dog used in moderation and can help with a myriad of things such as gas, flea prevention and it has natural antibiotic properties."
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/onions.html


HelpingAnimals.com > At Home > Vegetarian Cats and Dogs
... garlic (84), 70 (83%) were in good to excellent health, compared to 80% of those not eating garlic. Dogs eating either nutritional yeast or garlic also had a much higher incidence of good or improved ...
www.helpinganimals.com/h-vegcat-survey.html


Nutrition Journal | Full text | Effect of garlic on cardiovascular
...of garlic powder (as low as 2.5 mg/kg b.wt) [94]. Other animal experiments on rats and dogs also indicate a 'normalizing' effect of garlic on...
www.nutritionj.com/content/1/1/4 (Animal Studies)


Garlic stimulates a burping response which also relieves the build-up of gas that occurs with colic. That, and encouraging a bowel movement( the olive oil helps relieve colic and at the same time will stimulate a bowel movement naturally and safely) are both curative. It's up to you as to whether you want to try one or both or none.

Dragonfly
October 16th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Garlic in "moderation" is a relative term, is it not? A clove of garlic may be moderate for a 100 pound dog, but a bit excessive for, say, a 6 pound dog. Just a thought for those dispensing medical advice, sight unseen, holistic or otherwise.

mona_b
October 16th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Just a question.How are his bowel movements?Has he been going ok?

BMDLuver
October 16th, 2005, 09:24 PM
His In's and Out's are all fine but his legs get a bit shakey when he stands,
MonaB, I think that when Chris said this he meant that his eating drinking were good and that his bm's and pee's were good. I hope that is what he meant. :fingerscr

mona_b
October 16th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Oh man I am blonde.....LOL

Thanks BMD..... :)

I was just thinking that if he wasn't pooping then maybe this could also be causing the pain.

CyberKitten
October 17th, 2005, 12:30 AM
I am not getting into a debate about what colic is and is not - I have treated it (as a symptom) to know what it is in pediatrics. As for dogs, I only learned what I now know from my vet today. So, take that info as such - tho my vet is president of a leading vet organization and excellent in her work so I trust her implicitly. I was just attempting to help - I have no time for debate, I'll leave that to ppl with lesiure time (Oh I wish, lol). My vet does debate with me, alot tho - but we respect one another so that works out very well. :)

I would call your vet and see what he says. I still do not understand why he would diagnose symptoms as colic though and perhaps you should ask him. It was perhaps said by him and not meant as a definitive diagnosis - it is hard to know his intent without knowing the whole context and I do not want to critize the man unjustly. He is after all working without the resources we have at our fingertips - I have been in South America with Doctors without Borders and know what medical care is like and I can only imagine what it is for pets. (And please GuateChris, don't take this as a criticism of your country - just that I know what you are coping with!)

I know my brother's beloved lab was very ill when he ate garlic and had to see the vet - and he is a BIG pooch. Hence my question about it - I do not know if it safe or not but maybe your vet can tell you. Perhaps mixed with other ingredients? I am loathe to listen to anectodal stories but I am cure your vet can give you the best advice since he knows your dog. We are attempting to help without the benefit of proximity and medical records.

doggirl
October 17th, 2005, 12:36 AM
How interesting CyberKitten! There used to be a show about MSF on one of the cable channels; haven't seen it in a while though. Quite sad sometimes but interesting and what an eye-opener. Are you a pediatrician?

justncase
October 17th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Garlic in "moderation" is a relative term, is it not? A clove of garlic may be moderate for a 100 pound dog, but a bit excessive for, say, a 6 pound dog. Just a thought for those dispensing medical advice, sight unseen, holistic or otherwise.

The mentioning of olive oil and garlic is not "medical advice"( No more than the mention of other foods on this site) . Both are foods, not drugs. Olive oil is high in omega 3 fatty acids- the same touted for healthy skin and coats in pets . Garlic is routinely added to pet treats, and raw food diets. Its safety in the diet was substantiated by Dr. Wallner, DVM concerning the benefits of its use - in moderation and a few minutes of research would have further substantiated that fact. Moderation is, as the term implies .If one is having difficulty in understanding the term, a quick check of the Webster's dictionary would clarify its meaning-"avoidance of excesses or extremes." In the light of that , "excessive" dolling out of either olive oil or garlic would be unnecessarily contradictory. No reasonable person could give something in excess and call it moderation. If one were to refrain from mentioning anything- not pet food, because an OP might give it excessively, not water, because an OP might give it excessively, and refrain from suggesting that an OP could exercise his/her pet more frequently because he might run his poodle as though it were a greyhound, then there would be a problem indeed. One expects that the reader has, at least, a modicum of common sense to begin with. Some seem to feel that they do not. As for " dispensing medical advice"- there was no need. Dr. Wallner's comment as well as the links provided were sufficient.

justncase
October 17th, 2005, 01:35 AM
I am not getting into a debate about what colic is and is not - I have treated it (as a symptom) to know what it is in pediatrics. As for dogs, I only learned what I now know from my vet today. So, take that info as such - tho my vet is president of a leading vet organization and excellent in her work so I trust her implicitly. I was just attempting to help - I have no time for debate, I'll leave that to ppl with lesiure time (Oh I wish, lol). My vet does debate with me, alot tho - but we respect one another so that works out very well .


Clarification is not debate. Additional information is not debate. As you say,we are attempting to help .It's made all the more difficult if information cannot be shared, discussed, clarified, and added to by everyone, according to their own perspective, experience, and knowledge without it being called a " debate". Perhaps if one regularly engages in a debate " alot" with one's vet there is the possibility of always seeing everything in the terms of a debate, even when there isn't one.

GuateChris
October 17th, 2005, 05:38 PM
He seems much better today, running round and annoying eveyone, but still has a bit of a hard stomach, have been giving him the Dexametasona 0.5mg before food and he seems to be ok, just don't want to assume that and then have him be really sick at 7pm or later as the chance of getting him help will be very minimal. :sad:

Prin
October 17th, 2005, 06:04 PM
No reasonable person could give something in excess and call it moderation.NEVER ever assume this. Never. Not here. People don't understand what an excess is. You aren't giving the garlic amounts per pound of dog. How will the person decide what is in excess? One clove is not a lot for a human, and if it's the human's first dog, it might not seem like a lot for a dog either.

My advice: don't tell people to give something potentially fatal without giving EXACT dosages/quantities- Don't use relative terms because we ALL see things differently and you don't want to be responsible for garlic poisoning in a dog, regardless of what you read about it on the net, do you?? Please be more specific. What you say here can have a huge impact on many people. It's not just the OP you know? 232 people have read this thread so far. That's a lot of people and chances are not ONE has the same quantity in mind as you do when you say "in moderation".

Yogurt doesn't kill dogs. Garlic and onions, etc, can. Be careful.

BMDLuver
October 17th, 2005, 08:26 PM
I'm glad he's feeling much better today Chris. I know it's very difficult for you when nothing is immediately at hand to help him. I hope he continues to improve... maybe he just needed time for the antibiotics to start working. :fingerscr

Dragonfly
October 17th, 2005, 10:53 PM
GuateChris: there are several things that can be given to babies who have colic( and they can also be given to dogs, garlic in moderation though) . Here are some:

One teaspoon of olive oil the first thing in the morning , on an empty stomach and then hold off feeding for about one or two hours.

Also, if you can locate garlic--garlic oil is best, one clove( if you don't have the capsules) or one capsule.

Olive oil for dry skin is fabulous, but here you are touting it as a cure for colic. I may be slow, but I think that falls into what some would consider the catagory of holistic medicine. Same can be said with the garlic.

If I was just some joeblow off the street, looking for vet care on the internet to save some money, I probably wouldn't bother to do any research either. So I would have to take your word that a clove of garlic would help my 6 pound dog's upset stomach. Truth be told - that single clove of garlic could well kill my dog.

My point is this - STOP dispensing holistic medical advise unless you have a degree in veterinary medicine!

justncase
October 18th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Olive oil for dry skin is fabulous, but here you are touting it as a cure for colic. I may be slow, but I think that falls into what some would consider the catagory of holistic medicine. Same can be said with the garlic.

If I was just some joeblow off the street, looking for vet care on the internet to save some money, I probably wouldn't bother to do any research either. So I would have to take your word that a clove of garlic would help my 6 pound dog's upset stomach. Truth be told - that single clove of garlic could well kill my dog.

My point is this - STOP dispensing holistic medical advise unless you have a degree in veterinary medicine!




Well, OK, I'm officially puzzled. ( since the above was said publicly , I would assume that you would like a public reply as to the reason for my puzzlement) :

Olive oil and garlic do not fall into the category of " holistic medical advice" and a simple study of even the basics of holistic medicine and animal nutrition would substantiate that fact. Both have been mentioned numerous times in a nutritional context concerning pets so they can hardly be termed " holistic medicine" anymore than butter,cottage cheese, pumpkin, or any other of the numerous foods for pets , all which are, in and of themselves, helpful to the diet but not in excess.If moderation is needed then moderation is indicated and it was not I, "dispensing holistic medical advice" when the same infomation is given out for public knowledge and public use by qualified vets. Why is this given out for the public to use ? Because they are not drugs. To say that any mention of any type of food, vegetable, oils, fats, etc in any ratio is dolling out medical advice then all would be considered medicine which they are not. As for mentioning olive oil and garlic in the context of a dog with colic- both were recommended by vets, qualified vets(names were included) .


Dr. Martin Goldstein, DVM says this about garlic( page 63- The Nature of Animal Healing)- " To almost any sauteed dish, garlic is a healthy and tasty addition.......I try to add some, minced, to any cooked meal I make for my crew, figuring roughly half a clove for each ten pounds of pet. Most cats and dogs like garlic as much as people do, so it's hardly a tough sell. But garlic is also useful, along with yogurt containing lactobaccilus acidophils , in addressing digestive tract problems and it's a very effective antidote to fleas....."

Dr. Richard Pitcairn, DVM(Natural Health for Dogs and Cats): page 21- " ...garlic (is) good to include occasionally in the diet.(it) helps to purify the system, tone up the digest tract, and discourage worms and other parasites."......(page 65) Garlic: helps eliminate worms, strengthen digestion and benefically stimulates the digestive tract. Use it to promote intestinal health..... include fresh grated garlic with each meal, using 1/2 to 3 cloves, according to the animal's size."

And these books were written for every " joeblow" to read- holistically inclined or otherwise to use and interpret as he/she sees fit. Anyone following these suggestions would hardly be practising holistic medicine.

The same applies to this:

Gilroy Veterinary Hospital - Dr. M's Diet Tips
... venison, fish, potato, or rice diets (canned if dog is overweight). 3. Add 1 tbsp olive oil or use fish oil capsules daily. 4. Add 1 raw egg up to three times per week. 5. Supplement diet with veggies ... www.gilroyvet.com/564460.html Note: 3.)

Outlined in the above link are suggestions for improving the nutrition of one's dog. Would following the suggestions be considered practicing without a veterinary license? Would suggesting it to others be considered as such? Hardly,and there are numerous examples such as the above. It is interesting that Solid Gold's Turkey and Ocean Fish canned dog food contains olive oil. Also Merrick's Puppy Palate (canned) one whole clove of garlic.(Puppy Food Opinion thread) and others.

What is also of interest are these recommendations( all recent, except one *) by other members( none of which are vets) on this site( all recommendations were for internal use, not external application):

THREAD: Feeding dogs their own hair
"The best thing to do would be to feed your dog down a
spoonful of mineral, vegetable, or olive oil to grease the hair
up and allow it to be passed."

"Constipation 101
Add some fish oil/flax seed oil or olive oil to the food
1 tablespoon"

THREAD:Smelly dog
"He's eating a mixture of Merricks senior plate dry food with a homemade dog food mainly consisting of: Lamb, sweet potato, apple, brocolli, spinach, carrots, 1 clove garlic. '

" I know lots of people who feed homemade food, and they use garlic (esp. in the summer for mosquitoes), and i see that the higher end dog food have whole clove garlic in the ingredients (i.e. wellness and merricks), so i figure as long as it is in moderation, it is okay. I read homeopathic books, and they all praise garlic (i eat tons myself!) so i think it is good for my dogs. They don't eat a lot of it, probably half a clove a week each."

THREAD: Giving dogs garlic pills
"if you dont mind the smell of garlic breath (dogsbreath disgusting anyways, so not an issure really) just give cloves of garlic (whole clove, jsut like a pill, straight down the gullet). i give about 1 per week for a 35kg GSDx and she has no fleas, or if their really bad in summer she does not get as many.. "

TREAD: Heartworm preventative
"Also during high months it would be prudent to add garlic to the diet as well as Apple Cider Vinegar to the drinking water (ACV) also helps prevent stones from forming!"

THREAD: Demodex mange- is it gone or not:
"You can use garlic or brewer's yeast in the dog's food to repel parasites, tried and true. You can buy either products in a health food store and if you cant find powdered version you can always buy capsules and sprinkle some of that on the food. Unless you can get your dog to eat it the garlic raw with his food, which some dogs have no trouble doing."

"Thanks, I do give both boys brewer's yeast pills with garlic daily. They think it is a treat and enjoy them....."

THREAD: Bugs bugging Delaney:
"Garlic...do a search on it on this site. Lots of information, the above link may also be part of it!Garlic powder and yogurt."

THREAD: Homemade dog food
"I feed her chicken mostly with carrots , brown rice,a little spinach ,clove of garlic...on occasion some beets and parsley."

THREAD: I have 3 questions please:
"Add garlic to your dogs diet. About a teaspoon on his kibble should slow your insect problem down dramatically. Or you could add a garlic pill, like you would find at a health food store. I know this works, spent a lot of time in the woods in Europe with my collie and a friend's golden retriever. GR got no garlic and was covered with ticks at the end of the day - Collie had none."

THREAD: Metronidazole and dogs
"I gave Mozart a tiny bit of Olive oil with his food last night. Worked wonders. "

THREAD: Will this hurt him?
"I called the vet and said the same thing to just watch him and told me to put some olive oil on his food and he more than likely will pass it."

THREAD: dog food for shedding
" I have been told that adding some good quality olive oil to your pet's food can help with this.... Apparently the olive oil is also supposed to give a nice sheen to the dog's coat as well "

THREAD" Another dog food thread
"Have you tried adding a little olive oil to their food. It will help their coats and add a bit of flavor that may entice them to eat?"

THREAD: How much olive oil is too much?
"My cat refuses to eat anything but his regular cat food except he goes nuts for olive oil. He rubs against the cupboard where I store it almost daily but I only give him less than 1 tsp a week."

THREAD: Cat dandruff?
"Also you can add olive oil (I used extra virgin) to their wet or dry food, this has worked great for my mom who has a maine coon. "

THREAD: stupid questions
"once a week she gets about 2 tablespoons of olive oil on her breakfast.

THREAD: Olive oil for dogs?*
" My husband and I recently saw a show on Animal Planet about police (german shepard) dogs that were fed a tablespoon of olive oil over the dog's dry food on a daily basis. They claimed it was good for the coat and skin."

"It can't hurt! I mix olive oil in with Bentley's yogurt for breakfast each morning."

"I have used olive oil and fish oils they all work great."


As well as various other suggestions:

THREAD: Cat constipation
"Try the canned pumpkin , most cats actually like it..mix with her canned food.
Metamucil (psyllium) works good too, stay away from the citrus flavored or she'll turn up her nose at it. Mix a 1/2 teaspoon with her food. I prefer pumpkin as a laxitive for critters myself. You can add safflower oil to her diet..it's loaded with vitamin e and it helps the coat and to move things along also.. "

"FYI, the vet and I discussed that fibre can actually be harmful to cats with megacolon, as the fibre just increases the volume of the stool, but they are still unable to contract the colon to get it out."

THREAD:Feeding advice for a stray cat with diarrhea
"Canned pumpkin is also highly recommended (1tsp/day)."

"You might also try adding unflavoured yogurt or if you have them, probiotics - Lactobacillus acidophilus 1/4 capsule per 10lbs of body weight twice daily to restore the natural bacteria in the intestineand to help the intestinal immune system. Yogurt used to work extremely well "

THREAD: Is this just a phase?Grumpy puppy.
"if he gets diahrea, give him a tablespoon of canned pumpkin every couple of hours - it's pure fiber and will firm things up quickly."

THREAD: Housetraining
"....solid packed canned pumpkin is great for constipation or soft stools. It is pure fiber and fixes a problem in a day. Give him a couple of tablespoons with his meal and keep it up until you see a change. Add yogurt (plain or vanilla) or his food every day. Just a tablespoon will do. He could have this in his food for the rest of his life. It is full of good flora for his stomach and will help him digest his food better"

THREAD:Puppy Food Opinion
"Definitely yogurt A generous tablespoon a day is good. If you really wanna go nuts, then add some digestive enzymes to help him get all the vitamins/nutrients he can out of the food."

"Apparently if you really want the probiotics, you should get them in refridgerated pill form. But otherwise, definitely yogurt. You can try the Solid Gold Sea Meal too. It has those proenzymes in it."

THREAD: How Long on New Food to See Results
" You could also add fish oil and omega 3 & 6's as a supplement excellent for coat and general health"

" I recommended the Dick Van Patten,s Duck and Potato and Omega 3 fish capsules daily. The difference in her coat is amazing"

THREAD: Dog with warts
"As for immune boosters, how about exercise? In humans they finally figured out that vitamin C only helps a cold if you are very active while taking it..."

"thanks ..., someone else suggested a bit of yoghurt every day, and yours is a good suggestion too."

"Yogurt is a good idea, and I would give a little less then a tablespoon a day to your small dog. Added to it I would put a single drop of Oil of Oregano (known for killing viral infections, inflammation, boosting immunity and killing bacteria and parasites)"

"So exercise, yoghurt, Oil of Oregano and some Rescue Remedy seem to be the first changes I can make to help boost his system.....thanks, guys"

THREAD: Itchy dog
"Add some supplements to his diet as well, vitamin e and fish oils, evening primrose. "

THREAD: Ocular herpes
"If you haven't tried Rescue Remedy or Feliway for him, it might help....."

THREAD: Need help with my new kittens
"From these symptoms I assumed they had feline herpies and started giving them 250mg of lysine a day this cleared most of the symptoms up. thats another thing you might want to try."
"I recommend organic food and lysine. "



I said I was puzzled? I'm puzzled as to why any of the above was not considered " dispensing holistic advice without a "degree in veterinary medicine!" It's puzzling that I have to defend the use of garlic and olive oil when both are included in pet foods, recommended by vets for use in daily diets and recommended so often by members on this site. What is also puzzling is that anything from glucosamine, chondroitin, Rescue Remedy, acidophilus, oil of oregano, to lysine was routinely recommended by members , many times including what was a member's recommended dosage , without benefit of any quote by a vet saying it was O.K. For each one of these, it was equally puzzling that there was, not in a single post I found that mentioned these and other " holistic" recommendations where there was any type of warning included to " STOP dispensing holistic medical advise unless you have a degree in veterinary medicine!" and only once or twice out of more than 125 posts on garlic on this site did a member ever say they wondered about whether it was safe or not. Puzzling too that there was much concern that one would take my mention of " garlic, in moderation" and " one teaspoon of olive oil" and " one clove of garlic( for a specific dog, not generally) to mean a license to interpret to excess. Puzzled, because I wonder how the members' recommendations above would be also interpreted and why , if this was of great concern, there were no warnings to that effect. Puzzled because the recommendation by one member on that same thread was that it was " just a symptom of a digestive problem that is usually self limiting. Meaning it goes away without human or medical intervention" when colic can be life-threatening so what would happen if someone comes on this site who has a dog with colic and reads that? From what I've read, my post(which included substantiation by qualified vets) which mentioned one teaspoon of olive oil and one clove of garlic pales by comparison. It's odd ( OK, and puzzling too) that I found the most support as to the use of olive oil and garlic right on this site.

doggirl
October 18th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Well said Dragonfly. Also, seemingly "reasonable" people can and do do UNBELIEVABLE things, like give huge doses of something not thinking it's a lot, taking it upon themselves to give an animal a human drug (and sometimes at human doses), and worse. JMO but I think it's really serious, and very dangerous, to diagnose something on the net (as opposed to feedback that qualifies that it's just ideas and no substitute for a veterinary exam) and advice needs to be given carefully.

The whole holistic thing, while there is merit to a lot of holistic ideas, I think is really being followed in a cult-like way by many...this whole natural=good, Western=harmful thought process is being taken way to an extreme by some...I mean being "natural" doesn't make something "good". Some "natural" substances - rattlesnake venom. Anthrax. Toxic mushrooms. Insulin. Cocoa. Some "drugs" like penicillin are basically "natural". Many things that can be found naturally can be created synthetically...if it's the exact same molecule, is one better than the other? Plus, many of the "natural" remedies are certainly as dangerous as any drug, if taken incorrectly - garlic, for example (in dogs); aloe, if ingested; lobelia, an herb which has side effects including death, and loads of others. There are more harmful chemicals in peels of fruits than in the chemicals used to grow them. It seems like a philosophy, that natural is better, which is being taken to an extreme, and I still think there are merits to both Eastern and Western medicine but the best approach is to consider both philosophies but bottom line research for yourself, and keep an open mind.

doggirl
October 18th, 2005, 10:31 AM
Justncase, I am just not able to make it through your posts, I'm just finding them way too long and full of cut and pastes. Sorry.

Dragonfly
October 18th, 2005, 12:30 PM
What it boils down to is this:

Passing off holistic remedies for medical issues is a bad idea and can be deadly, so I won't allow it. While telling someone that olive oil is great for skin and garlic will keep the fleas off your dog is great - to tell someone that it will cure their pet of a medical issue is considered dispensing medical advice.

I am not interested in cut and paste posts from veterinary "experts" that I have never heard of or met.

As a moderator, I do not have to explain to you why this thread caught my attention and I felt the need to moderate. But, since you are feeling picked on - I guess I will spend a bit more time in the Pet Health forum.