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Need Help - Police Ombudsman?

wAggie
October 8th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Where can I find information regarding Toronto Police Ombudsman or anything related?

I'm looking through the Toronto Police Service site and I cant find anything.

To make a long story short, the cops came today to issue me a warning/ verbal notice.

The moment I opened the door, they (or at least the one that was doing most of the talking to me) already had a biased opinion of me. They listened to me but did not believe anything I said. They were rude and kept stating I did not understand without much interest in explaining to me, etc, etc.

PLEASE HELP!

I was told that if I would call the division anyways, I wouldn't get any help and nothing would be resolved because they all stick together...

SO, this is the only route I think I have - to contact an ombundsman.

Anyone have stories/info to provide? Please feel free to PM if needed!

Thank you!

Puppyluv
October 8th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Have you tried the Ontario Ombudsman Office?
http://www.ombudsman.on.ca/

Puppyluv
October 8th, 2005, 05:11 PM
Oh nevermind, the website said they can't deal with police complaints. But they do say they can make referrals for these issues, so I would contact them regardless.
Also, even though the cops gave you the "we're a united front" schpeel, I would still contact the police to make a formal complaint (I think you're complaining, right?)
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/professionalstandards/complaint.php

Bearsmom
October 8th, 2005, 05:38 PM
Well, I think that we're not getting the full story, and being a former Toronto Police officer, I can help.

If your complaint is that you didn't like the way you were treated/spoken to/warned, etc, contact 416-808-2222, that is the main phone # for them. Tell whomever answers what your issue is, they'll be able to forward you to the correct department that can take your complaint.

Please avoid use of statements like "they all stick together", you just don't know what people's careers are (present or former).

wAggie
October 8th, 2005, 06:56 PM
thanx, Puppyluv. I will take that as much second choice,... because this is seems like a very complicated situation...

Bearsmom, I looked at the site Puppyluv linked and there's a section for complaint filed for conduct of police officers and policies.

My situation probably deals with both.

The police officers left before answering my questions, they left me with the "you dont understand" and "you're confrontational" because they had to tend to "other calls."

This, believe it or not, had to do with my dogs. My dowstairs neighbour called them stating they were barking. They were NOT, and she lied. I was shocked. I had been watching a movie and they were in another room. Anyways, when the police officers came they said yes the dogs were barking. I told them that was because they had rung the doorbell. Standing around for 10-15 minutes, they said the dogs were not barking but it was still a warning.

I find that warning to be completely invalid. My neighbour made up a story about her situation, and the dogs barking. This all happened out of the blue.

I have been living in this residence since May; she's supposed to move out next saturday, and she starts this now. I am so upset.

All this seems like it happened out of the blue. She is ritaliating on me..... oh, I could go on and on, my apologies.

My neighbours and landlord can vouch for my dogs and my character. They can also vouch for HER character...

*shesh*

What are your thoughts?

JaydeDoggie
October 8th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Bearsmo, I believe you misread the original statment.... quoting[QUOTE=wAggie]
I was told that if I would call the division anyways, I wouldn't get any help and nothing would be resolved because they all stick together...[QUOTE]

It seems that the police used the term, not the poster..... or am I misreading?

wAggie
October 8th, 2005, 10:59 PM
JaydeDoggie, I did not use this term. I simply chose to type what I was told by an individual who's family member works for the T.O. police.

I did not change the wording for my mare helplessness in this situation..

Bearsmom
October 8th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Sorry, Waggie, took me a bit to write a response, then the stupid thing didn't post....grrr.

When I used to respond to barking dog complaints, they are the biggest waste of time ever! I once responded to one where a guy was mad because his neighbours gsd barked at him every time he went in the backyard. I asked him why he thought the dog barked at him constantly, and his reply was, "well, when I spray him with the garden hose, he barks at me". My reply: "THEN DON'T SPRAY THE DOG WITH THE HOSE!!!"

Far too often, people use the police to deal with situations that could easily be dealt with simply by talking to the person they have the problem with.

Sounds to me like your neighbour is a bit of a wacko, and since she's luckily moving next week, I'd just make sure your landlord and other neighbours don't have a problem with your dogs, and yer butt is covered.

If you still feel the need to complain, then do so.

wAggie
October 8th, 2005, 11:26 PM
she's far more than a bit wacko, my landlord terribly regrets letting them sign the lease, thank goodness they opted to leave early.

and Because they are so "wacko" if you will, this is the very reason I need to file a complaint, the officer did listen to what I had to say (enough to write something or other into their notepads) but not enough to believe anything I had to say, they wouldnt explain what they were doing and why... I tried to tell them the neighbour was lying, but they ignored me.

they may call every day from now on, who knows? I feel so out of place, I'm walking in thin ice, and it's scary. What are these people thinking? they want me to be their puppet? What reason did the officers have to be so irrational anyways?

today I completely felt as though I needed to leave the country and find a new JUST home....


for the record, I do ask my neighbours and landlord often about the dogs. I know what my dogs are like, I know what the neighbourhood dogs are like, and believe me, some people on my street shouldn't own dogs, they leave them outside to bark, bark, bark.... but this has never occured in my household. I have a good relationship with my neighbours and landlord, there's absolutely no worries there. My landlord often comes over, she really cares about this house. any time she came over, she'd barely ever hear my dogs (they are in their own room when we're not home).... I can't figure this out, I guess it's their final thurst for power (believe it or not, they have a dog as well, that barks quite often because they don't take it out when it needs to go pee, it never goes on walks, always in the house, not even in the yard... etc, but it's now elsewhere, so I can't call on them, even though that would not be the right thing to do, in my eyes.)

none the less, I feel angered these neighbours stooped to these disgusting lengths, and even more so that the officers showed little interest in what I had to say.

my boyfriend feels one of the officers knows my neighbours downstairs... this is so complicated,

and it makes me feel so down. :sad: I dont deserve this.

Bearsmom
October 8th, 2005, 11:52 PM
[he's far more than a bit wacko, my landlord terribly regrets letting them sign the lease, thank goodness they opted to leave early.

*This is a godsend for you.

and Because they are so "wacko" if you will, this is the very reason I need to file a complaint, the officer did listen to what I had to say (enough to write something or other into their notepads) but not enough to believe anything I had to say, they wouldnt explain what they were doing and why... I tried to tell them the neighbour was lying, but they ignored me.

*More than likely, they probably just wanted to get outta there, and it may have come across as abrupt.


today I completely felt as though I needed to leave the country and find a new JUST home....

*Oh, for pete's sake, don't sweat it this much, it's not worth the irritation

I have a good relationship with my neighbours and landlord, there's absolutely no worries there. My landlord often comes over, she really cares about this house. any time she came over, she'd barely ever hear my dogs (they are in their own room when we're not home).... I can't figure this out, I guess it's their final thurst for power (believe it or not, they have a dog as well, that barks quite often because they don't take it out when it needs to go pee, it never goes on walks, always in the house, not even in the yard... etc, but it's now elsewhere, so I can't call on them, even though that would not be the right thing to do, in my eyes.)

*If she was sticking around, I'd say call the police on her, but then again, it would still be a nuisance to the police (and you)

none the less, I feel angered these neighbours stooped to these disgusting lengths, and even more so that the officers showed little interest in what I had to say.

*Again, they more than likely just wanted to get out of there, kind of like, "hey, she says the dogs are barking, you say they're not, so we're at a standstill". Trust me, there are much better things they could be doing.


my boyfriend feels one of the officers knows my neighbours downstairs... this is so complicated,

*Knows in a good way, like they're friends, or a bad way, like she's got a history of nuisance complaints?

Puppyluv
October 8th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Bearsmom, I understand the fact that the police may have wanted to just get out of there, but this is their job! I would certainly expect them to listen to my side of the story if they were to come knocking on my door! It is irresponsible of them to try and avoid the situation!
I think a complaint is in order regardless of the fact that the neighbour is moving. If a police officer doesn't like confrontation, he/she's in the wrong profession.

Bearsmom
October 9th, 2005, 03:29 AM
Bearsmom, I understand the fact that the police may have wanted to just get out of there, but this is their job! I would certainly expect them to listen to my side of the story if they were to come knocking on my door! It is irresponsible of them to try and avoid the situation!
I think a complaint is in order regardless of the fact that the neighbour is moving. If a police officer doesn't like confrontation, he/she's in the wrong profession.

I spent 10 years as a cop in Toronto, and believe me, when you have calls backing up the wazoo, a sergeant riding your butt to clear the call due to shortstaffing (a problem for several years now), the last thing you want to be doing is settling a dispute over something that never should have involved the police in the 1st place!

I did say that if waggie wants to complain then she should. No one in policing likes confrontation, but it sure keeps 'em employed, doesn't it?

Furthermore if people would stop using the police as their personal mediators, then perhaps more "real" crimes would get solved.

wAggie
October 9th, 2005, 08:35 AM
Bearsmom, I'm probably wrong but it sounds to me as though you're validating the officers' stance to leave abruptly...

Puppyluv is right, this is their job, regardless how small. I don't see any "stand-off" since they could have easily walked over to the next door neighbours and asked if my dog(s) were barking.

otherwise, I could call the police on them, with a.. say... they hit me or broke my flowered pot, and it's my word against theirs, right?

either way they would get a warning? this is absurd. I sure hope there's smarter officers out there.

regardless what's going on with the officers behind the scenes, they are to be unbiased, and JUST, like all workers should be in any other profession when dealing with the public. I would imagine officers of the law should take this stance even more seriously.

I understand what you are saying about "real crimes," Bearsmom, but it wasn't I who called them in the first place. Perhaps they should have gone back downstairs or something, then again I'm no one to tell them what to do, but honestly things should have been straightened out and not left hanging like this.


as for the "knows them" written at the bottom of your quote, Bearsmom, it's probably in a bad way, like they're friends.

Puppyluv
October 9th, 2005, 11:15 AM
I spent 10 years as a cop in Toronto, and believe me, when you have calls backing up the wazoo, a sergeant riding your butt to clear the call due to shortstaffing (a problem for several years now), the last thing you want to be doing is settling a dispute over something that never should have involved the police in the 1st place.
A busy job? A tough boss? Understaffing? Join the club. None of those are excuses to do their jobs half-assed.

Bearsmom
October 9th, 2005, 06:26 PM
B]Bearsmom[/B], I'm probably wrong but it sounds to me as though you're validating the officers' stance to leave abruptly...

***No, I'm not. All I'm saying is that they more than likely had a ton of calls backing up, and SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE, you want to get them cleared as quickly as possible, with minimal conflict. Since I wasn't there, it's all subjective anyways.

Puppyluv is right, this is their job, regardless how small. I don't see any "stand-off" since they could have easily walked over to the next door neighbours and asked if my dog(s) were barking.

***AGAIN, yes, it's their job, problem is that the neighbour said they were barking, you said they weren't. Perhaps they spoke to the neighbour before they spoke to you? THIS is what I mean by a stand off.

otherwise, I could call the police on them, with a.. say... they hit me or broke my flowered pot, and it's my word against theirs, right?

***Most neighbour versus neighbour complaints are one's word against anothers.

either way they would get a warning? this is absurd. I sure hope there's smarter officers out there.

***Unless you see the "crime in progress", and given that (yes, it's as stupid as I KNOW that dogs issue warning barks) your dogs barked when they got there, they just told you to stop your dogs from barking.

regardless what's going on with the officers behind the scenes, they are to be unbiased, and JUST, like all workers should be in any other profession when dealing with the public. I would imagine officers of the law should take this stance even more seriously.

***Absolutely.

I understand what you are saying about "real crimes," Bearsmom, but it wasn't I who called them in the first place. Perhaps they should have gone back downstairs or something, then again I'm no one to tell them what to do, but honestly things should have been straightened out and not left hanging like this.

***and obviously it bothers you enough, so you should do what you feel is appropriate.


as for the "knows them" written at the bottom of your quote, Bearsmom, it's probably in a bad way, like they're friends

***and therein lies the problem, if they're friends with this chick, then, for lack of a better word, you're pooched right from the time they got there.

Bearsmom
October 9th, 2005, 06:29 PM
A busy job? A tough boss? Understaffing? Join the club. None of those are excuses to do their jobs half-assed.

Yes, but if your average officer worker does their job half assed, they're not nearly as much in the public eye and subject to intense scrutiny as the police are.

StaceyB
October 10th, 2005, 10:40 AM
I am a bit confused. I am not really getting what about the incident had upset you. What do you think they should have done.

It seems strange to me that they would have told you who placed the complaint.
I would assume that the majority of people who call the police to complain are usually not making it up and if the police see no proof they would give a warning as they did, just in case the dogs had been barking. I would wonder if there had been an ongoing feud between yourself and this other neighbour.

wAggie
October 10th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I think the officers should have examed the situation, rather than going on the complainers word. the dogs were barking because someone was knocking/rung the doorbell. they quieted down after that. it happens most of the time when they hear a knock/doorbell. it's common among dogs, the officers acknowledged that. but still said the dogs were barking when they came, now how contradictory is that?



unfortunately, the neighbours and I have ups and downs, and dogs barking isn't an only complaint, if you will.

StaceyB, you would think (and I would love to as well) that most people aren't making complaints up, but then in an idealistic society this would happen. you dont know what my neighbours have been capable of, and what they could do to try and show they have "power" over a situation.

StaceyB
October 10th, 2005, 11:11 AM
So I guess there have been numerous times that the police have been sent to your neighbourhood for complaints from one neighbour to another. The police probably don't take any of it too seriously anymore. To try to cover both sides a warning vs a fine for you and an acknowledgement of the complaint was the easiest way to resolve the situation.

No matter what the police said to who there still wouldn't have been any proof as to whether the dogs were really barking when the complaint was made.

Schwinn
October 10th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Given the conversation I had with the TO cops who investigated my sister's break-in on Friday, and I think this is what Bearsmom is really saying, is that, right or wrong, the cops are stupid busy, and, in the grand scheme of things, a dog barking complaint is way down there on the totem pole. I'm sure that what the cops were trying to do (right or wrong, successfully or not) was the bare minimum for what they saw as a nuisance call. Really, other than sitting outside your apartment for a few hours, they don't know if your dog is barking. All they know is, yes, your dog did bark. So, they have to follow-through. Kind of like if you have two kids who are fighting, and one says one thing, the other says the other. Not much point in finding out what happend, so you just say, "You know what, just don't look at him" "But Mom, I didn't" "Fine, then continue to not look at him" and you move on with your day. The cops probably were saying, whether it came across properly or not, was that they got a complaint that the dogs were barking, they came up, and the dogs barked, so they can't dispute whether they were or not. Therefore, just try to keep them from barking, and if they weren't, great.

As for people who say that they have the same pressure at thier job with time constraint and bosses, um, no, 99.9% of us do not. Especially in Toronto vs, say, Dresden, where the cops have time to catch a nap during the night (by the way, they get cranky if you walk up to them and tap on thier window to wake up. Don't ask, just trust me on this one). They do not have the resources to put officers on puppy stake out, and given that I was busy nailing doors shut and searching the alley for property and/or jerks who needed a pummeling, I'm thankful for that (sorry, still a little bitter. Long story). Therefore, they have to respond to every complaint, so the best thing to do is say to the complainer "we'll go say something", and to the complainee, "We got a complaint, keep your dogs from barking". Perhaps they were a little crusty, perhaps they were trying to make a point that they were not able to get across due to thier own lack of communication skills for whatever reason, but I would think that, in the grand scheme of things, this would probably register far lower than the 5 assult calls and 10 robbery calls they got the same night.

Bottom line is, I think what probably happened was you got a couple of cops who didn't communicate thier point properly (probably through thier own fault, whatever the reason), and it was a non-issue the moment they got in thier car and had to rush to the next call. If you feel you weren't treated properly, you should definitely lodge a complaint. The system is there for a reason. And if someone said it won't go anywhere because they all stick together, is either bitter because of thier own experience, or, no offense, a bit of a dink. I think the fact that numerous complaints do go somewhere proves that.

raingirl
October 10th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Whoa. Did you say that all police have to respond to all complaints?? I have been complaining about our neighbours music for a year now! Any time that it is loud after 11 pm, I call. No one has EVER investigated it though (and I've called at least 6 times!)

wAggie
October 10th, 2005, 03:25 PM
StaceyB, this is the first time police officers arrived at my door.

Schwinn, I understand dogs barking may be at the bottom of their totem pole, but they're bottom line also was this: if they come again in regards to a complaint of my dogs barking, I will be issued a ticket. I need to resolve this matter, before another escalates. Please remember, these neighbours called and filed a complaint out of the blue, my dogs were not barking. It's the same as me calling to say their dog had been barking... etc, etc.

raingirl, after speaking with tribunal and the police, there is no set time as to when music should be lowered/turned off/kept down. If the music, at any time, disturbs you from "enjoying your living space," then feel free to pick up the phone. Heck, I'll send these officers to your door, I dont need 'em. :thumbs up

Schwinn
October 10th, 2005, 04:27 PM
I missed the point about the ticket. I still think that the issue is a cop who was trying to avoid having anyone come back. It sounds to me, though, that he definitely used the wrong tactic. At any rate, I wasn't trying to minimize your situation, only trying to offer my opinion why the cops may have reacted the way he did. As I said, only you know the cops demeaner and what really happened, and I say it with all sincerity when I say that if you feel you were treated unfairly, you should lodge a complaint. I tend to defend cops ('cause I'm a wannabe!), but I've also asked a cop what the $#@!! his problem was and why he was being such a jerk, especially when he didn't know what he was talking about (in retro-spect, that may be why my situation didn't get any better from there :D ). I'm not saying what he did was right, only that it may, in part, explain his demeanor, that he was trying to move on (heck, maybe the guy needs to learn better communication skills). Personally, I wouldn't stress getting a ticket. I don't think he can give you one based solely on your word vs the neighbour's (I could be wrong, maybe Bear'smom can confirm or deny). I would think that they would have to confirm with someone else that there is an issue, or catch your dogs barking for no reason at all.

As for investigating every complaint, they are supposed to, but that doesn't mean they do.

chico2
October 10th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Waggie,nice to hear from you again!
When I first saw your thread I thought something had happened to Honey or Choco,but relieved to see it was only a barking/neighbor problem
I did not even know they would give you a ticket for barking dogs.
I have barking dogs all around me and I would never dream of calling the police...mind you,they don't bark all day.
Hope everything works out!

Bearsmom
October 11th, 2005, 01:16 PM
I Personally, I wouldn't stress getting a ticket. I don't think he can give you one based solely on your word vs the neighbour's (I could be wrong, maybe Bear'smom can confirm or deny). I would think that they would have to confirm with someone else that there is an issue, or catch your dogs barking for no reason at all.

***Correct, the complaints would need to come from more than one person, more than one occasion.

As for investigating every complaint, they are supposed to, but that doesn't mean they do

***Yes, we used to NOT spend a lot of time running to complaints where "the person in my tv is trying to impregnate me with yellow aliens". Believe it or not, people would be surprised what people call 911 for and get right uptight when officers don't respond. (ie, "my neighbour planted red flowers and I don't like them, send an officer around to tell them to remove the flowers"-no, I'm not kidding, calls like this do come in and are fortunately weeded out by the dispatchers)

raingirl-call by law re the music

Dukieboy
October 13th, 2005, 11:28 AM
ok, I am not getting this. There is no law that says a dog may not bark. There are noise by-laws but I think the barking has to be non-stop for quite a long period of time. My experience with TO police if any of you remember went like this: my neighbour was throwing glass and a substance that could have been rat poison into my yard for my dogs. I called the cops. They eventually came out to the house. Looked at the stuff, said there was really nothing they could do unless I caught her on video. Gave me a card for a mediation service, said they would tell her to behave, knocked on her door, she didn't answer, they went away. Period, end.

I sold my house. Built a huge fence around my new one.

Bearsmom
October 13th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Holy carp, dukieboy, if that'd been me, she would have rather the ETF show up than if I caught her touching my dogs!

What's that saying, good fences make good neighbours? Can't wait till we can afford to have an 18 foot electric fence put up on one neighbour's side...

Schwinn
October 13th, 2005, 02:39 PM
What's that saying, good fences make good neighbours? Can't wait till we can afford to have an 18 foot electric fence put up on one neighbour's side...

Car battery, red cable clipped to one down post, black to the other...

Not saying I've tried it, or that you should... :evil:

Dukieboy
October 13th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Holy carp, dukieboy, if that'd been me, she would have rather the ETF show up than if I caught her touching my dogs!

What's that saying, good fences make good neighbours? Can't wait till we can afford to have an 18 foot electric fence put up on one neighbour's side...

I have dealt with that particular neighbour on a number of issues over the last 14 years. She is just nuts. There is no dealing reasonably with a nutter. Also, with the legislation and its impact on Duke it was time to make a move. I just couldn't see Duke and Wizard not having a place to run and play normally for the rest of thier lives. I am lucky I had the resources. I don't know how others without will cope :confused: