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Proestrus

Mo Mo
October 5th, 2005, 09:03 AM
Sorry. I had been under the impression that one could ask a question regarding their animals health in this forum. My mistake.

LavenderRott
October 5th, 2005, 09:18 AM
At the risk of offending - besides the fact that she is a nice dog, what makes her more breedable then the lab at the pound?

Labs are the most popular breed in North America. There are almost twice as many labrador registered with AKC then there are Golden Retrievers which were the second most popular breed. The number of labradors in rescue are astounding! There are thousands of labrador and labrador mixes put to sleep every year.

BeagleMum
October 5th, 2005, 10:33 AM
As tragic as it is, yes there are many dogs destroyed each year, dogs that for one reason or another nobody wants. I have adopted several of these unfortunate animals myself. I have sat at the humane society and watched in disgust as someone brings in a puppy that they, "just don't have the time for". Something they should have thought of before they got a dog. I've adopted pups 3 times that had been found in burlap sacks in roadside ditches. It makes me sick to think that someone would allow their bitch to breed year after year, instead of getting her fixed, only to dump the pups in a water filled ditch. People like that should be euthanized.

I don't think that anyone means to offend here but you just explained exactly why you shouldn't breed your dogs. There is no way that you can guarantee that those pups will not end up in a shelter one day. Why would you want to add to that population? There are so many dogs out there looking for homes, why add to that?

Joey.E.CockersMommy
October 5th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Evertime I see one of these threads I say to myself I wonder how long before this thread is locked.

This isnt the best forum to get breeding advice as none of us that I know of are breeders and most of us dont really think its a good idea. My pesonal opinion is that breeding should only be done with purebred champion dogs, that have passed all their health certificates, and some of us dont even think these dogs should be bred.

However if you spend some time researching through some of the related threads you would see why the members here feel this way.

Anyways I would seek out actual reputable breeders and ask them all your questions.

Beaglemom
October 5th, 2005, 11:15 AM
I've been sitting here contemplating whether or not I should reply, but I thought that maybe I should.

Have your dogs been tested for any genetic disorders that are prevalent in the labrador retriever? If not, than please do so as they may be carriers and you don't want the litter to be affected.

Also, to answer your question regarding your female's acceptance of male dogs. She is still young and is inexperienced. It doesn't matter that you own both dogs or not, dogs are not like people and therefore don't think like us. Female dogs will mate with littermates and even their father if given the opportunity. Some females can be particular of the male she mates with though.

Although I don't think you care much for my personal opinion, I'm going to state it anyway. I believe that breeding should be left to reputable breeders. Many complications can arise from pregnancy and birth. I hope you are prepared for any that may occur. Many females have died giving birth, others have lost whole litters. All those homes that you say you have, well some may not want the puppy after all or decide a few months or years down the road that they no longer want a dog. Are you prepared to take them in should this happen? Also, please understand that a potential home for these puppies should be screened very carefully. A nonbreeding contract should be drawn up. Please remember that your responsibility to these future puppies doesn't end when they leave your home.

Please discuss all potential problems with your veterinarian and make sure that you are well prepared for any emergencies that may happen should your female get pregnant and give birth. You may need to take some time off work and be with her during the birthing. You will also need all the supplies at hand before the due date.

happycats
October 5th, 2005, 11:20 AM
I don't know if you read the rules before posting, but here is some info........
Most people on this forum are against declawing cats, and are against banning specific dog breeds. Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding. Most people on this board will beg, borrow and max out their credit cards to see a veterinarian when their pets are ill.

VERY pro spay/neuter!!! Most here have not bred our pets, so would be unable to answer your questions.
And please don't compare human breeding to dog breeding....We raise (pay for, look after, finance) children to one day be self sufficient, and an active member of society, unfortunately your dogs and puppies will NEVER be self sufficient, and will always depend on humans for even the most basic needs!

Beaglemom
October 5th, 2005, 11:28 AM
Ok. Ok. I get it. Everyone here is for the extinction of the canine species through mandatory spaying and neutering. Geez, you'd think I'd bred a hundred pups. Again, it was a long and agonizing decision for me. Now that I have made up my mind it's not nice to hear people call it a mistake. It's like getting pregnant and having people call my child a mistake. Call me sensitive, but that's how I feel.

Ever think what would happen if NOBODY bred their dogs?
Nobody here is for the extinction of any species of animal. What we do want is for people to be responsible. Breeding for the sake of just having puppies, maybe make some money, is wrong. Reputable breeders breed for the betterment of the breed. Our shelters are full with unwanted dogs and cats. If everyone who had a male and a female had one litter, our shelters would burst! You cannot compare humans with animals, it really isn't the same thing, just as Happycats stated.

Have you considered all the health problems that can arise in an unspayed female and unneutered male?

Puppyluv
October 5th, 2005, 11:40 AM
You say that we know nothing about you and your dogs. Well why not elaborate. Are your dogs ourebred? Do you have their pedigrees? Are you aware of all inheritable diseases that have run in their blood line? Have they been genetically tested? Have you spoken to the breeder of your dogs? Often when people breed their dogs, they find a "mentor", someone who can guide you along the way, to make sure everything works out. The internet is not the place to find this. If you insist on breeding your dogs :confused: then go to your dog's breeder and ask him/her to mentor you.
And don't get mad at us because you don't like hearing the moral truth.

TobsterMom
October 5th, 2005, 12:13 PM
MoMo, Sorry, but I think you came to the wrong forum.

Not only are you not going to get your original question answered (I can guarantee it), but you are going to hear things you don't want to hear.

As stated before, people on this board are pro spay/neuter. You won't find anything you want to hear. You may think it's people personally judging you, but the fact of the matter is, there are alot of people on here who devote their lives to animals who have been abandoned, neglected, and often poorly bred. They also dedicate their time in animal rescue and shelters, many of which are in operation because of hobby breeders.

We take this very personally, and very serious.

Instead of getting angry, perhaps you could seek professional advice elsewhere, nobody here has your point of view, or is willing to change theirs.

StaceyB
October 5th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Many people here are for breeding but doing so in a responsible manner which means that you have the parents medically cleared of all genetic defects, and possibly the health certificates and pedigree of your dogs parents and grandparents. A good breeder doesn't breed just to produce puppies but to better the breed. These breeders also show their dogs to champion to show that they are a good representation of the breed for looks and temperment.
Labs are prone to health defects such as hip displasia.
You say that you have thought about doing this for a year but unfortunately that isn't enough. You need to do what I and others have mentioned first.
Odds are your dog will not be breeding this time around anyway. They will usually catch if they are going to between the 10th and 12th day. Unless you know all there is to know about breeding and your dogs have everything done that a responsible breeder would do then I would reconsider your decision to breed.

Lucky Rescue
October 5th, 2005, 12:39 PM
One good reason not to breed your pets is that the last time I checked, there were about 1,500 homeless Labs on Petfinder, many of whom will never get a home and will probably die in shelters.. I"m sure many of the people who bred these dogs saw no harm in it either.

What makes any dog more breedable than the next? Is it temperment? Looks? Intelligence? Or does it have something to do with the same reason humans breed? The propagation of the species? The strong desire to pass on to a new generation all the features that we value in ourselves? Or could it just be the desire to know that a piece of ourselves continue on after our passing? Or could it be purely personal?

Propagation of the species is not a good reason, since I doubt Labs are in any danger of extinction.

The "features we value in ourselves" is also not a good reason to produce more dogs, since only by showing and titling your dogs can you possibly know if they have the right stuff to pass on. Doing it for any other reason is just selfish.

Breeding dogs, especially "dime a dozen" dogs like Labs is a very very bad idea.

If you want more Labs, there are tons of them on death row in many shelters, just waiting for someone to give them a chance at life.

BeagleMum
October 5th, 2005, 12:53 PM
I guess it's too hard to hear the truth...

justncase
October 5th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Setting the spay/neuter question aside for a moment, I remember reading some years ago that just because an animal is a female that doesn't mean that breeding and having puppies is a forgone conclusion. Some females are just not meant to breed and have litters and they indicate that by not wanting to breed even if they come in heat. Sometimes it's genetics, or an internal problem, or something else and to force the issue, so to speak, the animal ends up , many times, having puppies stuck in the birth canal, dead fetuses that aren't aborted, the female doesn't want anything to do with the puppies or tries to eat them or her life is endangered in some way , she won't stop bleeding after the birth, or there's something wrong with the litter , they won't feed or they are deformed in some way and the owner says " I should just have left well enough alone. I guess when she didn't want to breed, that was an indication that she shouldn't be bred."

Lucky Rescue
October 5th, 2005, 01:06 PM
IF anyone wants a Lab, they're not in short supply. Here's a gorgeous guy available at Gerdys Rescue.
Astro (http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=19884)

Mo Mo
October 5th, 2005, 01:29 PM
Many people here are for breeding but doing so in a responsible manner which means that you have the parents medically cleared of all genetic defects, and possibly the health certificates and pedigree of your dogs parents and grandparents. A good breeder doesn't breed just to produce puppies but to better the breed. These breeders also show their dogs to champion to show that they are a good representation of the breed for looks and temperment.
Labs are prone to health defects such as hip displasia.
You say that you have thought about doing this for a year but unfortunately that isn't enough. You need to do what I and others have mentioned first.
Odds are your dog will not be breeding this time around anyway. They will usually catch if they are going to between the 10th and 12th day. Unless you know all there is to know about breeding and your dogs have everything done that a responsible breeder would do then I would reconsider your decision to breed.
Thank you. I guess it was and still is a shock that everyone here just assumes that I am an irresponsible person who breeds dogs at the drop of a hat. My dogs are both purebred champions, they have had every test available, their family trees are devoid of defects and disease and I think any pups from them would better the breed. I did not know I had to include their pedigree to get an answer to a simple question. This isn't a hobby I am talking about. It may be the start of something I have always wanted to do, breed champion show dogs. I may have only been thinking about breeding this pair for a year but I have been researching and thinking about breeding now for the last 15 years. In short, I want to be a reputable breeder. I'm concerned about my bitch, if anything happened to her I think I would die. Her vet and breeder are not and are taking a wait and see attitude. I guess I was just looking for a little bit of reassurance from a third party that may have had the same experience. Sorry for the mistake. I didn't realize that everyone here would be so morally judgmental. :(

LavenderRott
October 5th, 2005, 01:31 PM
Durn it! I missed both of her replies!

I have to wonder, outloud apparently, why it is that people who think they are so very right and righteous get so mad when someone tells them they may be wrong.

Let's get a grip. Nobody here is calling for the extinction of the species canine, as we know it. Some of us even think that Labs are wonderful dogs that should continue to grace the earth with their presence. (Sorry, I am not a lab fan.) We do however, feel that breeding dogs is something that should be taken VERY seriously. Too many unwanted dogs (and cats) are put to sleep every year to assume that we should just start having every intact female pump out a litter or two a year! Labradors have crippling and fatal genetic issues that should be addressed. YES - they should meet the standard, which means they need to win a beauty contest or two. And yes, they should be tempermentally sound and smart enough to learn how to sit.

Look at it this way - you see an add in the paper for a labrador puppy. You go, fall in love and pay your $600 for one of these adorable bundles of love. (And I am sure they are adorable and loving.) The parents were never checked for dysplasia, so in a year, your loving pup can't walk because it's hips are a mess. Being the good dog owner you are, you pay the $20,000 to have both hips replaced so that your dog can walk again. When the dog is 3, it is running around the yard playing with your children who love it when it suddenly drops dead! Seems the parents had a heart condition and passed it on to your pup.

Just something to think about.

StaceyB
October 5th, 2005, 01:44 PM
Unfortunately this is not the place to come asking about breeding and giving little information. Others have no option than to assume the worst. We have so many people that come to this sight that have allowed their dogs to get pregnant by simply being irresponsible. If you go through the different threads here you will get a better idea of where everyone is coming from. Do you have someone who is mentoring you.

Mo Mo
October 5th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Unfortunately this is not the place to come asking about breeding and giving little information. Others have no option than to assume the worst. We have so many people that come to this sight that have allowed their dogs to get pregnant by simply being irresponsible. If you go through the different threads here you will get a better idea of where everyone is coming from. Do you have someone who is mentoring you.
Yes I do. She is not concerned and says every dog is different, the vet says the same thing. As long as the dog is healthy and free of infection apparently everything is fine. I'm just a little timid with my dog. She and my male are the first dogs I ever raised with no previous owner. The rest of my animals came from either the humaine society or other rescues. They are also the first dogs I have not had spayed or neutered. You can read all the books you want but nothing beats first hand experience and that's what I was hoping to find here, real people who have real experience with dogs. Instead I get sucker punched and my morality placed in question. I must have led a sheltered life because I didn't realize so many pessimistic people existed. I was raised not to judge people and to never assume, you know the whole judge not lest ye be judged thing? All that was blown away today. Thanks for the reality check.

LavenderRott
October 5th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Sorry you feel you got sucker punched and we questioned your morality.

You will find that many people here are active in rescue. Some of us have worked at shelters and have had to put unwanted animals to sleep. Putting to sleep a litter of puppies or two gives you a whole different perspective on breeding.

I am all for people breeding dogs that have been SHOWN to prove that they are the best of the breed and SHOWN to have solid temperments. I am all for those people breeding once all of the proper health tests have been done. In large breed dogs, that would mean OFA certification for hips, elbows and hearts, thyroid tests and whatever else is common to your particular breed.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
October 5th, 2005, 02:24 PM
It sucks to feel jumped on I know how it feels too. I would suggest finding someone that breeds. We are just not experienced with breeding. Just remember there are thousands of labs in shelters that need homes. Many people will adopt a shelter dog before adopting a champion.

12303 labrador retreivers on petfinders.

http://search.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?tmpl=1&breed=Labrador+Retriever&animal=Dog&size=L

Lucky Rescue
October 5th, 2005, 02:31 PM
You have shown both your dogs to championships? Wow, very impressive and I mean that sincerely.

People may have jumped to conclusions, since it's a very hard and long road to title one dog, let alone two and it would be unusual for the same person to have two dogs who excel in every way.

What titles do they have? Performance, conformation....?

Puppyluv
October 5th, 2005, 02:39 PM
How mysterious.. her posts have dissapeared :rolleyes:

Beaglemom
October 5th, 2005, 02:44 PM
If this something you seriously want to get into, breeding champion dogs, then I suggest you find a better mentor. One that will be there to help you along the way in every aspect, showing, breeding, etc. If your current mentor is not helping you with this situation, then they are obsiously not really into helping you out.

Also, something to keep in mind and something a good mentor will help you with, is knowing that a good breeding program is not as simple as pairing two championed dogs together. You have to find two dogs that have complimentary features. One dog has to make up for a feature the other dog is lacking. You want to produce a litter that is superior to the parents.

Joey.E.CockersMommy
October 5th, 2005, 04:25 PM
My dog Joey was supposed to be used for breeding originally. He did win some show titles. I dont know which ones, but the original owner that we got him from decided against it for these reasons. One he had a missing tooth, and the other was it turned out he was too closely related to the female dogs that he was to be bred with. So he was neutured and never bred.

CyberKitten
October 5th, 2005, 09:50 PM
(I apologize in advance for the length!!!)

I just came upon this thread. You are doing something right with the dog shows to win titles but you need a mentor who can really help you in the genetics, behaviour, health and mating areas. Is there someone - perhaps from the shows or your local association or registry - who can spend the time to assist you in ensuring that this labourous (pun not intended, the word just popped out, lol) process does not adversely affect your dog.

I seem to have missed part of the discussion but I do gather you want to breed your dog who is an award winning and titled lab? Your first course of action should be to ask yourself why you want to do this and if it will help your dog and advance the breed? I have friends who breed show quality cats and dogs - more tho in the cat world - and curerntly have a house of three show quality (two titled sphynxes) and one spayed beautiful show quality Siamese. My friend who shows Sphynxes asks people who contact her and are interested in breeding - to advance the breed - if they understand some sure certainties of breeding: (I have inserted dog for cat and left out the inappropriate ones)
1) You will NOT get rich. Indeed, she needed all of her income as a physician to support her hobby. Fortunately, he husband also works and he indulges her. A friend who bred champion Newf for awhile discovered early on that any profit she netted barely covered the whelping costs. Another who breeds Yorkies (also a family physician) discovered she could not do it alone as a single person and not prepared to get married or hire someone to help with her beloved dogs, she opted to just show her dogs and assist other breeders. She now plans to maybe breed when she retires from medicine.
2) When the puppies come, you need a careerwhere you can take an 8 week "vacation" whole yiu raise the puppies.
3) You have to be set up to care for any or all of the puppies your dog(s) will deliver. That means you have the resources - financial, space, etc - to house and care for puppies returned for whatever reason.
4) You are doing it for the betterment of the breed while realising that yoiur breed alone will not make you a "successful" breeder.
5) Labs, according to my brother who like you has rsearched labs inside out for much of his life - his chocolate lab is now 5 and neutered, should be bred only at age 2. This makes sense since as you likely know, they are only considered grown up at that age. (I am convinced many labs I know never grow up, that would not be any fun - it may be something they can teach us, lol) .

I am concerned about the comment made by your vet that "As long as the dog is healthy and free of infection apparently everything is fine." I hope s/he is not referring to all that is needed for breeding because that is so far off - you need to be part geneticist, marketing director, daycare operator for a puppy kindergarten, and most of all, love each puppy born in your program. You need to know the dog's genetics - any illnesses by the grandparents can and will show up in the next generation so the further back your genetics program goes, the better. The dogs you have should not be closely related and preferably not at all related!! Labs have a prpensity to certain diseases and reputable breeders will ensure the dogs they breed have abssolutely NO medical defects that can show up later in life. This also means adhering to a breeder code of ethics and particpating in seminars and learning from and sharing info with other breeders.

Any knowledgable breeder would add the following to your vet's notation:
(and I apologize in advance for the length but you need to know there is more than worrying about infection):

A) Stud dogs and brood bitches should be Labrador Retrievers registered with the AKC.

B) Stud dogs and brood bitches should be certified radiographically free of hip dysplasia by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and/or the Wind-Morgan program. This certification may include Wind-Morgan numbers, OFA numbers or OFA evaluation up to the age of two. Elbow evaluation is not required, but is strongly encouraged.

C) Stud dogs and brood bitches should be examined annually and certified free of eye diseases currently recognized as having a genetic basis by a board certified veterinary ophthalmologist.

D) Stud dogs and brood bitches must have earned at least one of the following:

1) A Companion dog title (CD) as awarded by the Canadian Kennel Club

2) One championship point in an Cdn Kennel Club licensed show

3) Judges Award of Merit (JAM) or placement in an Cdn Kennel Club licensed field trial

4) Hunting Retriever title as awarded by the Cdn Kennel Club or an SDLRC Working Certificate

Any litter may be recognized as long as both sire and dam meet the minimum requirements, A-D above, and the breeder specifies which performance requirements have been satisfied. Adherence to "D" shall be at the discretion of the breeder for each individual dog; however, any advertisement in the SDLRC Newsletter will indicate in the advertisement of a litter or individual dog which does not meet "A-D" above, exactly what qualification(s) has (have) not been met by the sire and/or dam, or by the individual dog. OFA/Wind-Morgan numbers or copies of evaluation must accompany litter listing ad copy, along with CERF number or copy of eye clearance, at the time it is submitted to the Newsletter.

All stud dogs owned by the members in good standing of the SDLRC that have met the requirements of the Breeder’s Code of Ethics may be listed in the SDLRC stud dog referral list if so desired. (Dogs must meet minimum requirements "A-C" above, and a note will be made if they do not meet at least one of the requirements in "D".

In addition to the above:
1. A breeder should evaluate the temperament of a prospective stud dog and brood bitch before breeding. Shyness, over-aggressiveness, etc., are NOT desirable Labrador Retriever characteristics.

2. A breeder should guarantee the general health of a sire and dam at the time of mating.

3. Owners of the brood bitch will not allow her to produce litters in more than two successive seasons. They should also take responsibility for any resultant puppy from their breeding from birth until death, including fostering the dog until another proper home is found if necessary.

4. Owners of the stud dog will encourage bitch owners to breed only if they have facilities, time and resources to adequately care for a litter. They will refuse stud service to any bitch that does not conform to "A-C" above, or which they consider to be in poor health. Stud dog owners also must take responsibility for any puppies resulting from a breeding using their stud dog, including fostering the dog until another proper home is found if necessary.


And it goes without saying that anyone who breeds lab MUST belong to the "The Wind-Morgan Program for Diagnosis of Heritable Joint Disease in the Labrador Retriever." I assume you have read the "bible" on labs - Official Book of the Labrador Retriever - in your research.

I do not know what else to add - I did not see your original question and I am unsure now what it is/was. Like most members of this Board, I support breeding only if it done by qualified and reputable breeders and whose objective is solely breed to advance the breed If you are having problems in breeding, you may have to find a new mentor and do a bit more research. I considered breeding my show quality Seal Point Siamese for all of maybe an hour. I sometimes think I see what can go wrong in health care for humans and thus my perspective is skewed by that and I did not want to subject my baby to motherhood and the health problems that can crop up in even just one pregnancy. I know that is overprotective but she means the world to me and I am not willing to take an even minor chance with her health and life. She is a sweetheart and would (I think) make a wonderful mama but I look into the eyes of the hundreds of beautiful Siamese who end up in Siamese Rescue (and I know some have worse fates - 25% of all animals in rescue or shelters are purebred!) and know that I just cannot do it. She meets the standard and more and is a certified therapy cat so spoiled diva that she is, she'd perform exceedingly well in cat shows but I just cannot bring more kittens into the world.

Anyway- good luck with your search for info. Get an informed and helpful mentor and work from there.

Puppyluv
October 5th, 2005, 10:06 PM
CK-just fyi, since the OP deleted the first post, the thread was originally concerned with the fact that she has 2 labs that she's trying to mate, but the bitch doesn't seem interested. (I'm sorry that this is not an exact repetition, but it's difficult when the OP'er just decides to delete posts).

CyberKitten
October 5th, 2005, 10:25 PM
Oh OK, thx - that could be caused by sooo many things. Maybe she had a headache. :) <Kidding but it's late and I prob wrote too much stuff in response to this, lol>