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Help!!!! doggie troubles Warning: really long

Okami
October 5th, 2005, 12:29 AM
Help, my friend is having troubles with her 10 month old american eskimo. This is the information I got from them. Their dog had been fine until recently it had started to poo and pee everywhere randomly. They would get home and there would be a bathroom scene in a small area of the apartment. Now the problem has escalated, the puppy poo's and pee's everywhere in the apartment. When the owner calls it, it gets very scared and it starts peeing. They take the puppy out for walks 2 times a day and lets it out in it's pen on a balcony 4 times a day. The puppy has even had an incident of pooing while walking to it's crate. I asked them if anything had changed since they got the puppy. They said nothing had changed at all.

A little background on these people in my point of view. They're very nice, I know that the owner has spoiled this dog since they got it. They have been through puppy school too. They don't hit, yell or do anything or that sort. They have even tried calling a trainer in to find out what's wrong. The trainer basically told them that he/she have had incidents with this type of dog. A sort of behavoir thing that runs in the breed and you can't fix it. I don't know but that sounds a little bs to me. Now the owners are thinking of getting rid of the dog (I'm not sure if it's give to a friend or the shelter but I'm thinking the latter). They can't find a solution to fix this problem.

From my opinion it sounds like something has changed in the puppy's enviroment, and it's being put under stress. I really don't want another dog added to a shelter, I would take it in but I don't have anymore room in my zoo :(. But still if they have to get rid of it I'll try my best to save the little guy.


Here's some e-mails from the trainer to the owner
(note Kato is the puppy's name)
We're still frustrated and as confused as ever and it's starting to cause even more conflicts. Sorry for the following LONNGG email.
Now Kato is basically peeing when I try to call him over 70% of the time - I don't even want to touch my dog anymore because he pees all the time when I am near him.
I will get down on my knees and call him over to me (I started doing this because I was thinking that his peeing was because I sometimes loomed over him unintentionally - but that's apparently not the case). He will still pee a trail even if I'm calling him over to play. I've never hit him, I don't yell at him when I'm mad at him (the only yelling he hears is when I'm freaked out that he's taking a dump on the floor yet I still never yell at him to punish him).
I've got Kato going out once a day and (maybe twice a week) he goes outside twice a day. I'm taking him for 15-45 minute walks now and he gets some obedience throughout the day where I get him to sit and down.. (he's getting those really well now but not stay). As for going to the bathroom he is taken out about 6-8 times in total throughout the day (in addition to his walk outside) to go on the balcony.
I can't do the four times a day as you suggested because firstly, I honestly lack the discipline to go out that often and secondly, I don't have the time to do it between school, work, and my activities. Tony is really busy now w/ his business so I understand that the burden basically is on my shoulders to fix Kato's problems.
I'm getting even more and more discouraged with his behaviour and especially because he pees all the time while he is around me.
We got Kato when he was 3 months old, we spent about 3 weeks with no sleep taking him to go the bathroom every 3 to 4 hours, he was then basically perfect in housetraining (with maybe one accident in the house a month which was always our fault) until he was about 6.5 months old then after that one day he semeed to reserve going to the bathroom exclusively for in the house and it's been that way since it seems.
He's still either clipped onto one of us (or we hold the leash) or in his crate but he's still managing to go in the house. I take him out for his walk when I'm back from school, he gets let out to the balcony in the morning, he's fed, let's let out intermittently during the day. It's not really a strict routine since we're both in and out of the house at different times or we have things to do but it is very very often. His behaviour has gotten so bad that this one time Tony had Kato on the balcony and he didn't go, so on the way back into his crate Kato took a dump WHILE walking!!! He's also managing to relieve himself often when I call him over (I never call him over to yell at him). He now even pees when I try to clip his leash on (just me, not Tony) even though I've never harmed him in any way or treated him any differently than I have since I first got him. I can't even brush him or wipe his eyes now without him peeing half the time. I am very baffled and it's really hard to have the motivation to even work with a dog when I seriously have not done anything different to him since I got him but he treats me this way and I feel like he is scared and doesn't love me anymore (and I'm not lying here.. I've seriously done nothing wrong and love the dog much - although it's getting very very hard to love him).
The question now is: if we were to send Kato away for the board and train and you mentioned that you take him out 8-9 times a day, would he go back to what he is doing now because I can guarantee you that he will not be going out 8-9 times a day for walks and would go back to once a day again. Would he still be trained even if his routine changes again? What brand of the e-collar do you use and also what about this fear he has developed for me? Will he still be scared of me?
I can't live like this with a dog who doesn't love me... he just took another dump infront of us the other day while we were holding onto his leash but had our back turned while putting things on the kitchen island - I turned around and he was laying a log and of course I immediately stopped him, but it was too late since he was done. I'm still cleaning the carpet 2-3 times a day. I can't believe that all dogs are this bad even though Kato is my first. I know people who neglect their dogs but their dogs are well behaved. Is something wrong with Kato (he has a routine, just it's not strict) or is it just us since I'm not taking him for his 4/day walks like I should? I know that 'there are no bad dogs but only bad dog owners' but I really do try... I've put a lot of time and effort into making him a good dog but don't understand why he still does what he does and really feel like I am at wits end and very very upset because this is straining on every person in the house


Trainers reply
We are soo frustrated!! Yup...and I'll bet that Kato is, too!

We attach Kato to us when he is out of the cage and when he is not attached to us we stick him back in the cage. Instead of getting better at the bathroom thing, he is getting worse. When you take him out from his kennel are you taking him outside for a walk or are you taking him straight to the balcony? Or are you attaching him to you immediately? The other things like biting on toes/eating kleenex he isn't doing because he's tied to us. Good, that's a start. Keep up the umbilical cord training - it's a wonderful way to stop unwanted behavior. In the last three days sometimes when I walk by Kato (if he is tied onto Tony) he has just peed on the carpet and when we tug on him and say no he sprays everywhere and leaves a big trail instead of stopping his peeing. Do you mean that when he can see you coming toward him he pees? "leaving a trail" would indicate to me that he is scared and can't control himself. If you yell at him, he will pee more so if that is the case, take a calmer approach and simply take him out with a "no, let's go". Tony took Kato for a car ride today and Kato took a dump in the passenger seat! My guess here is that Kato simply needed to go and could not hold it any longer.
I don't understand what we are doing wrong...!!! If I had to make a guess at what you are doing wrong I would say that Kato does not have enough of a schedule for him to know what is expected and he is lacking in exercise. If he were my dog, I would have him in the crate during the night and keep him in his crate until I was ready in the morning to go out for a walk... a real walk and not just to the balcony. He needs to move which in turn will stimulate and move his system. Take him on a stroll for at least 15 - 20 minutes and when he does go, praise the hell out of him and give him a treat. Make these exercise sessions obedience sessions also...throw some "sits", "stays" and "downs" in there. When you come back home, feed him and pop him in his crate until it's time for him to go out again. Follow the same routine. I think that's what is making this so difficult for him ( and you). There is no routine. If he were my dog, I would take him out for exercise/obedience 4 times a day for at least 20 minutes each time. This is the only way he is going to "get it" in my opinion. Crate time mixed with exercise time. A strict schedule will eventually work but you have to put it into action. If Kato does eliminate on his walks then he can have limited "free" time in your house. During that free time, you can play with him and make his time out of the crate fun. Then, when that's over, pop him back in the crate until it's time to take him for a walk again. If I had him with me on a board and train, that is exactly how I would schedule his day except that I would take him out of his crate and work him on obedience probably 8 times a day.

-----------------------------
Kato issues:
1) Since Kato is a picky eater, we've tried numerous foods to see if he'll like one over another. Usually he eats Innova and we tried Solid Gold, I'm not sure if the food had anything to do with his bathroom habits (we've now switched him back to Innova) but he has pooed about 5-6 times in the house on the carpet and also he has peed about twice in the last month or so. This is really out of character for Kato because he used to have free run of the house and he would take himself to the bathroom. I remember reading in the pet books that having the pet go in the house is a horrible regression so I've put him back in the kennel when neither of us can supervise him and then put him out on the balcony to try to go (where he is trained to go). Now it seems like he doesn't want to go to the balcony anymore like he is scared. I don't know if this could even be a health issue or not. So that's number one priority right now, it seems like we've regressed back to square one on this and now I'm paranoid all the time about him going on the carpet.
2) Kato loves to chew on Tony's feet still but never mine.
3) Food possessiveness, he never displayed this before until we ran out of food once and bought him the Pedigree canned stuff from the convenience store and he loves it so much that he'll growl, show his teeth, and try to bite us when we go close to it. Now he has taken this much further and growls and tries to snap when we come near him and he's eating a treat/bone.
4) He does not "drop it" like when he has tissue paper or something he should not be eating and I'm not sure if he doesn't understand it or he doesn't want to do it because I've worked with him using the method I learned in class (on a day you weren't here).
5) He still does not want to go "down" even though I still try.
6) As soon as we attach his leash to his collar he immediately calms down but if we don't attach the leash and he is in one of his "moods" he stays crazy.
7) He scratches our wall paint when we have visitors and I've been trying to get him into the sit position to calmly wait but then he runs back to the area and scratches.
8) I was considering turning his indoor bathroom habits to outdoors or else attaching a bell to the door because now that it's coming up winter, we can't have the balcony open all the time and Kato doesn't hold it. If the balcony is closed he will just go on the carpet!
9) Lastly, Kato gets a lot of love and affection for doing nothing because he is constantly pet during the day, I think that might affect his behaviour because he is getting praise for doing nothing but he's just sooo cute


Hope this info can help find the problem ><.

mafiaprincess
October 5th, 2005, 12:34 AM
That's gigantic.. And I'm not up to readign a novel right now.

But in what I did read, the dog is submissive peeing, because it's potentially been scolded in a negative way being caught going indoors. It may also be confuused as to where it is allowed to potty being taken outside and being let go on the balcony.

CyberKitten
October 5th, 2005, 06:14 AM
I am no expert on dog behaviour - but this dog sounds terrified. And these may be nice ppl but their language scares the heck out of me to be frank. They use the term "getting rid of" to start with and then these "gems":
although it's getting very very hard to love him).
I can't live like this with a dog who doesn't love me...
I can't believe that all dogs are this bad

He is NOT a bad dog nor does he not love them. He has problems - they seem to think it is the dog's fault and the poor fellow ios just a puppy. My guess - and that is all it is - is this poor pooch senses their frustration and attitude - and is scared out of his wits. If there truly is no medical issue, they may have to start all over. It does not sound to me like they love this dog as they claim to. I mean if your child did something wrong or was ill would you say s/he did not love you. Firstly, they need to get a heart and show this puppy they really do love him and he has a secure safe place. This story just breaks my heart - reading it made me think maybe the dog would be better off with someone who is willing to take the time and really care for this dog!! The way thse ppl write, it is clear to me they have huge expectations. Since they adopted him at 3 mos, and there is no background info, it is hard to say is something happened and some experience with them made the dog revert to some previous behaviour. They really should consult a behaviourist who can assist them and determine what the problem is. They need patience, time and have to realize just because the puppy is poooing and peeing when he scared is in no way an indication of whether he "loves them". That just sounds like something a 6 year old would ask me, sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

TobsterMom
October 5th, 2005, 08:13 AM
I agree with the above posts.

1. The dog is not on a schedule
2. The dog is confused about the balcony
3. The dog senses their frustration
4. The dog is not kept on a consistent diet
5. The dog is still really young

I think they need to stop worrying about things like eating kleenex, scratching paint, and going "down" and consentrate on the biggest problem first.

The trainer gave her great advice. he isn't a miracle worker, he told her exactly what he would do if he had the dog. Even if he did take the dog to bootcamp, I think the problem lies with this dog and his owners.

I also heard no mention of a visit to the vet to rule out health or anxiety issues.

The issue with the dog not loving them is baloney, dogs give you unconditional love. I've yet to see a perfect dog. I think she needs to get a handle on herself and stop fretting about nonsense, and really put effort into solving her puppy's problem. She comes off sounding like she has all these expectations for this dog to be "perfect" and not really putting forth the true time and effort to rectify his problem.

Sure, it's frustrating, but after reading her letter, the only pity I have is for that poor little dog.

raingirl
October 5th, 2005, 09:02 AM
I gather Okami that you will forward on info to these people?? When I say "you" I mean to the people who have the dog.

First of all, changing food can cause diarhia for a while after you change, so that could be an issue. Stick with one food. Feed three times a day at the same time each day. Have the dog sit before you put the food down. Leave it down for 15 minutes. If the dog doesn't eat it, take it away, and wait until the next feeding. This should stop the pickyness.

Is he nuetered? Don't male dogs start "scenting" things at that age if they are not fixed? If he's not fixed, I would suggest that, as his peeing may also be a medical/spraying thing.

the balcony must be totally confusing him. They need to take him outside to the same spot on the grass minimum 4 times a day, at the same time. Screw school/work or activities. Look at your schedules, and find out exactly when you can take him out. We have a rescue dog. He has some issues, and we ALWAYS take him out first thing in the morning (about 6 am), again at 7:30 before we leave for work, about 6 pm when we get home, and then again at 8:30 pm before bed. These are our guidlines, but sometimes we deviate by an hour in either direction. If one of us can't do it, the other person will (there are only two of us). THis schedule takes precedence over all other schedules (that's what happens when you have a dog).

As for the crate...does he like it in the crate? Sounds like he may be spending TOO much time attached to you or in the crate, so he doesn't understand what is his "den" and where he shouldn't pee. Maybe he thinks that leash means outside which means pee?? Leashing him to you inside and outside may be confusing him (like the balcony). TO him, it's all the same and he may not understand that inside is inside and no peeing allowed, especially if you leave the door to the balcony open for him.

Now...I don't know american eskimos that well, but everyone I have known or met have always been VERY submissive and timid dogs. Don't like other people or strangers. I think that you may also need a new trainer on this. I think your dog is super submissive and you are "coddling" this behaviour by cooing and trying to soothe him when he is being submissive, this just reinforces the behaviour. If you are being all nice and happy and calming when the dog is submissive, he is thinking "well, I must be doing something right because they are prasing me". I think you need to just be Neutral in all your dealings with the dog. If you catch him peeing or poping, don't scream yell or make a peep. Just make one loud sound (like a loud clap) ONCE to distract the dog, don't be angry inside (as the dog will sense it), don't say anything, and whisk the dog outside. You need to do this EVERYTIME he pees or poops in the house. NOT ON THE BALCONY though...you actually have to take him outside to grass (I live in an apartment too and it sucks having to go up and down, and in my building, we have to leave the property by at least 30 feet to let our dog pee/poop as it is in our rules...so I understand your pain). When you take the dog outside, let it do it's business. walk to one spot and wait for him to go. Just hold the leash and wait. Make take a while. Bring a book. wait and wait. Once the dog does his business, praise like heck!!! then go inside.

I don't know where you are, but there is an AMAZING trainer/school in Oakville ontario called Scholars in Collars. All the trainers there are show trainers and super dog trainers. They use treat training, no pulling on the leash for correction (which I see you were taught which will just make the problem worse).

Ok..I'm done my rant. Good for you Okami for helping these people out. Please pass on my information to them. I am willing to help as best I can. Let them know that some dogs may always have problems with submissive peeing. My friend had a golden and he would pee whenever people came to visit. He would roll over for belly rubs, and then pee everywhere. It was just what he did and there was no way to fix it.

Beaglemom
October 5th, 2005, 09:19 AM
I'm sorry, I know these are your friends, but they are very frustrating! I don't think it is the dog's problem, but theirs. They are doing sooo many things wrong! The trainer did give some great advice, it needs to be followed.

First off, the dog is not receiving the adequate amount of exercise. This is a 10 month old American Eskimo! They require a lot of exercise. One walk a day and a few times on the balcony are not enough. They shouldn't have gotten a dog if they didn't have the time to properly exercise it or just don't feel like going out that often as stated!

Secondly, the dog is in the crate way too long. Like the trainer indicated, Kato probably can't hold it much longer when they let him out so pees as soon as he is able to. He needs more bathroom breaks. He also needs to be put on a schedule. This will help immensely with the housebreaking routine. He should eat at a certain time and taken out, not to the balcony, but outside.

Kato is peeing when she calls him tells me that she has called him to scold him for something that he has done. Maybe she only did it once, but it was enough to scare him since he is submissive.

This is a dog that has anxiety issues, most likely from lack of exercise, proper training and socialization. Your friends need to start working with a trainer, one on one, not sending Kato away to let someone else train him. The bond and trust needs to be reestablished between Kato and his owners. He needs an understanding and compassionate owner. Not one who is going to be frustrated by normal puppy behaviour. It seems to me that he is already scared when his owners come home because they are probably showing subtle signs of frustration which he picks up.

Okami
October 5th, 2005, 02:57 PM
Thank you so much for the replies everyone, I have passed this info on to the owners and I'm waiting for a reply. I've also worked out a few things and if they're giving up Kato I'll be taking him in.

CyberKitten
October 5th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I have to ask - because the plight of this poor little puppy bothered me - whare would you take him? I wondered - because of the intense fear he was exhibiting by his beahviour - whether he might be a victim of a puppy mill and whether they might have purchased him from a puppy mill? I have seen puppy mill victims also cower in fear or urinate when a person talked to him or her. They had come to associate a himan voice with punishment and this reminded me of that - my cousin works with rescued puppy mill dogs and this is very consistent with that. It is entirely possible that either something they did reminded the puppy of some past horror or something they themselves did badly scared the puppy.

If he is not a puppy mill rescue - and frankly, as "nice" as these ppl are, I doubt they could cope with the needs of such a dog - and they purchased him from a reputable breeder, a contract with any reputable breeder will inist the dog be returned to her or him.

If the dog came from a Rescue, it might hel to find out as much about his background as possible. They need to realize adopting a dog is not unlike adopting a baby and your schedule has to revolve around the puppy's until some semblance of routine has been properl developed. They need to learn how dogs think and as someone said, dogs love unconditional - they don't think like humans and decide NOT to love someone because of some transgression.

If they adopted from a Rescue, tell the Rescue the truth about what happened at their home. The group will have to work with the puppy to overcome these problems and they need to know exactly what happened so they can give the puppy the best care and training.

These puppy will not survive a pound so please do not even consider that.

mona_b
October 5th, 2005, 10:55 PM
I agree with the other posters.So I really don't need to add anything..... :D

CK,I don't think Okami is taking the dog to a pound...She is taking the dog.... :)

I've also worked out a few things and if they're giving up Kato I'll be taking him in.

Okami
October 6th, 2005, 12:28 AM
Yes I'll be taking Kato into my home. :) This dog as I know was purchased for quite a large amount of money, but that's all I know.

StaceyB
October 6th, 2005, 12:31 AM
I don't think his issues are all that bad, I think it has been due to the environment. With a little work you should be able to correct everything.

LoNScamp
October 6th, 2005, 08:13 AM
Sometimes a dog and their owners aren't a match. I think this is one of those cases. From everything you have written, the owners sound like they have created the problems through ignorance of what the dogs needs are and interputing his behaviours.

I'm glad you are taking him. It sounds like they for whatever reason haven't dealt with any of the issues that have occurred. They will only get worse if not dealt with. The growling and snapping big time problem - a clear indicator that he has no understanding of his place in the home and no respect for the owners; the going to the toilet - nervousness/fear among other things; the scratching of the paint - if he is tied to them why is this happening?

It sounds like Kato is a very confused dog who needs to be in a new home. I'm glad you are taking him, you obviously care or you wouldn't have posted for info. Good luck and keep us posted. You will have a bit of an upper hand, when you first get him. I call it the honeymoon period, he will be in new surrondings and unsure of himself, you can use it to your advantage to work with him and start to show him what is expected and what is not acceptable and at the same time start to build his confidence.

Puppyluv
October 6th, 2005, 08:33 AM
IMO one of the biggest issues at hand is that he's only geting one walk a day, and that the owner just "doesn't have the discipline" to take him more :confused: That's no excuse. Honestly, if the dog can't even be cared for properly, maybe it's best for another owner to take the dog.