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Pasteurella

twinsandlabs
September 21st, 2005, 01:59 PM
Hi- I am new to the board and have read it for a while, but my Chocolate lab has been in good health........until now. It all started about 2 months ago- nasal discharge, not bloody or purulent or thick, but slightly yellow. I took him to the vet, they started Baytril, it got better, we stopped the Baytril, it came back again etc.. The vet then did xrays and ruled out a tumor or other problem. There were no elevated CBC's, no temperature and clinically, our dog Jake has been happy and his usual self, minus the discharge which increases at night, out of the right nostril only. I did collect a sample for the vet of the discharge which came back positive for pasteurella. The vet suggested a scope and continuing the baytril. So, my questionis- has anyone had any experience with pasteurella? and what has the course of tx. been? I have read the Merk Manual and reseached pasteurella and rhinitis etc.. but I am concerned about Jake's nose and health. Thanks everyone for taking time to read this and respond, if you'd like!

raingirl
September 21st, 2005, 07:55 PM
Could be allergies if Rhinitis is involved. I have it myself, and it will never go away (it's chronic). If you have a naturopathic vet in your area, I suggest going to one. There are some great treatments for things like rhinitis. The natural amino acids in honey and honey comb are supposed to do wonders! Someone had her dog try that here (couldn't find the post though) and her dog was SOOOO much better.

Just a thought. I have a list of hollistic/naturopathic vets, if you give me the area you live I can find one for you.

twinsandlabs
September 22nd, 2005, 10:04 AM
Thanks so much for replying. I live in the Washington, DC area. If there is something we can buy at Whole foods or our local co-op that sells homeopathic products, I will try to look for honey or honey comb products there. I have searched the web for a while and the "literature" does suggest chronic conditions like you say. The only thing I did find significant research on was Pasteurella in rabbits which can be a significant illness. That was the only significant finding the vet was able to see from the culture.
Thanks Raingirl!

Gee
September 27th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Hi

I have just read your post re Pasterurella in Jake your Lab.
I was really surprised as I thought I was reading about my own dog.
Gypsy my 9 year old Yorkie has exactly the same symptoms as Jake
even down to being worse in the mornings. The only difference is
that she suffers from her left nostril. I wish you luck in getting on
top of this. I know it is a comfort to find that your dog has no
Tumour. Gypsy has been given the all clear on that front too,
but I sympathise with you in not liking to see your otherwise well dog,
sneezing and suffering from this chronic type rhinitis. It has been a
long haul for us in discovering what was wrong with Gypsy and we
are still waiting for some blood tests to come back as I write this.
The problem is her nose is so tiny that when she had xrays a year
ago there was nothing to report as no endoscope was small enough
to get a proper look. She had her soft palate checked which was
fine and did not respond to Baytril, so was deemed to have no
bacterial infection and was then on treated as an allergic dog
(esp as her lymph glands were slightly swollen). We were given
all sorts of anthihishamines (none of these have worked to date)
and she was diagnosed as having Chronic Sinusitis.
She saw a homeopathic vet for 9 months and nothing really got
on top of the sneezing. There were no further tests available to her
at that time. I trust my vet as he is very good and very popular.
The surgery is the best and most up to date where I live and I was
advised against allergy testing as this could prove inconclusive
and to desensitise her to an allergen involved daily injections for
some time which may not work and could send her in to shock.
As she is terrified of the vets now, the the vet decided we should
try a low dose of steroids. These were given on alternate days so
that we could still use homeopathic remedies. She had a good
response and the sneezing was kept to a minimum. However she
had to come off the steroids recently due to a staph skin infection.
She was prescribed Synulox antibiotics and was weaned off the steroids
during the course on antibiotics given for the skin infection.
Of course we sailed through with no sneezing as the antibiotics
were obviously killing the Pasteurella. Once the antibiotics stopped
the sneezing returned this time with a yellow/green tinge and blood.

We took her back and had a further investigation done as our vets
have recently aquired a small endoscope for her size nose. She has
had a culture taken and her nose flushed out (it was full of muck
and blood). She is now on Synulox antibiotics and doing
quite well. They are stronger and I believe more broad spectrum
than Baytril (this may be of some help to you).
I give her a probiotic (to increase friendly gut bacteria) as well.
It is called Osmonds Digestor.
(My Mum's vet prescribed it for her dog and he is doing well - he
suffers from upset tummies from time to time). Some vets say
there is no point in giving a probiotic until antibiotic treatment is
finished, others say it does no harm. Osmonds Digestor is an all
natural product and I know quite a few dogs on it that do well.
I am sure you can buy it in the states. Let me know if you want
their website address (I don't know it off the top of my head).

Good luck, it would be good to hear from you.
Hope Jake is doing ok.

twinsandlabs
September 29th, 2005, 04:11 PM
I JUST got off the phone with the VET before I checked the website again. Thanks you for your lengthy relpy. UPDATE- Jake is no worse. He still has discharge from his nose and sneezes each time we go outside. It's as if he knows it's coming and cowers and gets ready for it to come out! He is otherwise happy- eats and drinks like a champ. I did follow raingirl's advice and Jake has been eating honey for 5 days now and we'll see what happens.

In terms of my conversation with the vet- the bacteria is normally found in dogs, but she said that perhaps Jake has some scarring from the infection, or a small area of infection which is chronic. He has responded so-so to the Baytril (68mg BID) and the vet did say that there are a few others to try. My aunt is a genetic scientist who works daily with Rabbits who are susceptable to pasteurella and she said that they treat them with Baytril and that it can be a chronic problem. Jake's right lymph node is also slightly swollen too

In terms of the scope- I was wondering if it is necessary to put jake through that, as the scope, the Vet said, may or may not show anything. Or, if MAY show an area of infection that they MAY be able to remove. I certainly will do whatever Jake needs, but at 1,200-2,000$ a procedure, I want to be more sure that it would work before I put him through that.

The vet did also say that we could try some Benadryl to see how that does- but if it is due to pasteurella, then maybe it won't work. ?

Jake's nose, once brown, has now actually changed a little in color from all the nose discharge which concerns me, but choc. labs are prone to nasal skin changes, I have read.

I just want him to be OK. I know the sneezing bothers him, and the runny nose too, as he is licking his nose and every once in a while, shys away from my hand anywhere near his nose as he's tired of me wiping it with a wet wipe to keep his nose moist!

My hope is that the infection will just take longer to respond on the Baytril and I am hoping that another week will improve his symtoms. The vet did say that sometimes long term AB use may be needed......... Can you post the website for Osmond's? I have been giving Jake some yoghurt.

So- I will keep you posted. We will be away in a few days on vacation and Jake will be at my brother's who is familiar with him. I will post an update before we go.

Please keep me posted on your precious little one Gypsy too. Thanks so much again for sharing. Let's hope they both come right very soon!
Regards!

Gee
October 19th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Sorry we've been away on holiday so not posted sooner. Glad that Jake is no worse. Gypsy too is no worse, but no better really either as regards the sneezing. Just like you say as soon as you open the door and let her out or take her on a walk that can trigger it. She seems to be over the Pasteurella as now finished her month of antibiotics, but you are right in what you say about it being a chronic condition. My vet is of this opinon too. Once they have had a nasal problem it can be difficult to get on top of it. She too like Jake has now a clear discharge and sneezing which she does not like and licks her nose. I am going to try some honey too. I think it has to be local if possible so that the pollen comes from local bees. It's a way of desensitising them to a pollen allergy if they have one.

The website for Osmonds Digestor is www.petcetera.co.uk. If you look under Nutrition and Health and then Digestion and Eating Aids, you should find it. There is an option at the checkout to ask for a quote for mailing from the UK. If the P&P is a lot, maybe you could find a similar product at home. Yoghurt is very good too and should be live so hopefully that will be helping Jake.

Gypsy is now off her steroids completely and has been for a few weeks. I don't like to see her sneezing, but unfortunately the vet and I have had to agree that the steroids even at their lowest dose are worse for her than the sneezing at present. He still thinks it is an allergy and the pasteurella a secondary infection so she may have some tests to see if we can find specifically what she is allergic to. Then rather than having her conventionally desensitised which involves daily trips to the vets for injections (neither the vet nor I think she can cope with this as she is so terrified of the vets), he will fax her details to our homeopathic vet so that he may desensitise her using natural products. At least this way he will no longer be shooting in the dark.

I know that Rabbits can suffer from and even carry Pasteurella which can be difficult to get on top of, but our Rabbit is very healthy and my feeling is that Gypsy did not catch this from him but from some contaminated soil as it all started when she found a treat on the floor and grabbed it. It stuck in her throat but we managed to disloge it and she was fine, except the sneezing started a week later so maybe that was the start of the sneezing and the pasteurella or maybe the pasteurella came later. Perhaps none of it is related we may never know.

If Jake's nose is sore you could try rubbing it with a little Aloe Vera Gel. I suggest Forever Living Products Aloe as even the gel for the skin is harmless if licked. They also have a vet that you can email and are an American company. There are certain parts of the plant that are very bitter and can upset the tummy so if giving it internally I would only recommend Forever Living Products as they are safe for animals as well as Humans.

You may have a distributor in your area. Their website is www.foreverliving.com

I understand your concerns about having the scope done too. Sometimes you have to weigh everything up and have a good long chat with your vet because some procedures can show nothing but you still have the small anaesthetic risk and the stress to the dog. You'll know when it's necessary to do something and how to cope with it as you seem to have a good relationship with your vet as we do. He listens and is never insistent unless he feels it is in Gypsy's interest. You and your vet have Jake's best interest at heart so don't worry about doing what you feel is right for Jake.

Good luck with Jake, keep me posted and let me know if there is any more info I can help with :)

Kind regards

PS: My vet also said try Benadryl for Children (Non Drowsy), he is going to work out the dose for me, but I want to try the honey first as if I try both and they help I won't know which one is doing Gypsy good.

jawert1
October 19th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Hey Twins, an addendum to the honey treatment, make certain it's local honey (honey from Oregon may not work so well) as this will encompass all local flowers/trees that might be irritating poor Jake. Also, since you're a DC resident (as am I), you may want to check out Weber's Pet Supply at Rts. 50 and 28 out in Chantilly, VA - they have one of the best natural food selections as well as a ton of stuff that you just can't find at any of the larger stores. Keep us posted and have a great vacation! :)

twinsandlabs
October 21st, 2005, 08:53 PM
Hi there- Thanks for posting everyone. Jake is still no better or worse. Right now I am leaning toward getting a scope done with the thought in the back of my mind that they really won't find anything. I have spoken to quite a few vets and each has their own opinion about the scope. The honey hasn't seemed to make a difference but his coat is now a gorgeous soft brown! I got the honey at the Bethesda co-op:>

I am also calling a few vets in the Richmond area as going out of the DC area drops the price of the scope a lot too- and if it's going to be a stress for Jake, I want it done properly and for the right reasons.

He's still his happy self, but I just hear him sniffling all the time and his nose is getting a bit raw despite the vaseline and aloe vera I am placing on it. Today he rubbed his nose with his paw and yelped in pain which made me feel terrible and I think has tipped me toward getting the scope done just to make sure I have done everything I can. I just hate that he's not feeling well with the sniffles.

I will keep you all posted. Again, thanks so much for the input

Gee
October 27th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Hi Twins and Labs :sorry:

Sorry to hear no change with Jake. Good luck with the Scope.

There is still no change with Gypsy either, she is having some bloods taken on Monday and sent to the lab to see if she is allergic to an inside or outside allergen and they can even break it down further to pollen, house dust mites etc. Then My vet is faxing details to my homeopathic vet to see if he can desensitise her as he would rather it was done this way as it will be less stressful for her and of course stress won't help the allergy. My homeopathic vet has put her on some Bee Propolis, this is apparently a good antibiotic and that way she may be able to be weaned off the conventional antibiotics which she has now been on for two months. My vet decided it was best to carry on with the antibiotics until she has the blood test as if she got worse he did not want her to end up back on steroids as they can affect the result of the allergy tests.

Sorry to hear no luck with the honey, I do hope you get things better for Jake, I know how you feel. Today Gypsy was sneezing for a period and seemed really fed up with it, then she was ok and back to normal, but it must be horrid for her.

Don't give up.

twinsandlabs
October 28th, 2005, 08:45 PM
I had a long talk with a vet consultant on the case and she highly rec. the scope........so we're going to do it. The vet I consulted with is a close family friend who I don't like to overload with vet questions, and used her as a final last consult. jake goes next week and I'll let you all know what she finds. His chocolate brown nose has now lost its pigment and he's not a happy guy. Thanks for the support. I don;t feel as if I have given up, I have just decided to let them have a look and see what's going on eventhough i :angel: it will be tough for him.

Will post next week!
Thanks everyone!
-C

jawert1
October 29th, 2005, 11:56 AM
Good luck and keep us posted :)