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How long on a new food to see results

Dog Dancer
September 6th, 2005, 01:36 PM
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post, I thought I saw something about an area for food questions, but can't find it now. If I've got this wrong please re-direct. Thanks.

Halo has food allergies, poultry being the biggest one, although lately I've begun to suspect meat protein in general. About three weeks ago I switched her over to AvoDerm Vegetarian as was recommended on this board, hoping it was a starting place to rule some stuff out. She still is very itchy and has some hot spot areas (rash kind of areas) on her legs and tummy. Not really severe - she's had much much worse. Her stool is also fairly loose even though she gets pumpkin (which we started her on previously for this issue and it helped immensely, but not helping right now). Other than that she seems fine. Her shedding is reduced somewhat, although she has a very thin coat anyhow (she's a lab X).

Just curious how long she should stay on this if the itching and rash doesn't go away - should I wait two months before doing anything.

I will be taking her to the vet this week for something to help the itching - don't worry about that. Just looking for an opinion on how long to persevere. Not sure what the vet will recommend, but wanted to be pre-armed going in. Thanks!

BMDLuver
September 6th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Can take up to six weeks to see final results. Also, if the pet has seasonal allergy combined then sometimes it will take until the first real frost to determine food allergy vs seasonal allergy.

coppperbelle
September 6th, 2005, 07:30 PM
When I switched my guys from one food to the Solid Gold I saw results quickly with Chloe. With Hunter it was not as obvious until months later.
My friends lab has severe allergies. Her fur and skin were in terrible shape. I told my friend about Natural Balance Duck and Potato. It took a few months but with the new food and Omega 3 capsules it has made a world of difference in her appearance. The itching is not all gone but it has diminished.

Prin
September 6th, 2005, 10:10 PM
It took Jemma and Boo a few months to adjust completely and I can't imagine they had the full effect while they were still adjusting.

Dog Dancer
September 7th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Halo was on the Natural Balance Duck and Potato for a few months and then her rash got really bad, which is what triggered me to switch her to the vegetarian. She had been getting moose meat (boiled) on top of her food for some time and no matter what very top quality foods we tried we saw no results that gave real improvement. Hence our thought it may be a meat protein issue. I feel so bad for her with the itching, she doesn't even seem to be sleeping as much right now. Plus the AvoDerm Vegetarian requires feeding her quite a bit more and now she's pooping more often too. Her schedule is so off she needs to go in the middle of the night now then doesn't go in the morning when I walk her. Last night she actually woke me up and wanted to eat (I find it hard to feed her 2 1/2 cups at breakfast and dinner). So she ate a small bowl at 1:30 a.m. and that seemed to settle her for the night. I think I'll have to give her a small bowl before bed from now on. Yeah three feedings a day! I know she's digesting all of this as twice in the past three weeks she has woken and vomited at 5 in the morning with a totally empty belly just the yellow bile puke. Too much tummy acid and nothing to absorb it I guess. Perhaps the evening feedings will help withthat too, although it's very infrequent and only since feeding her this brand. I'm going to take her to the vet on Saturday maybe for a shot for the itches and try to wait it out for a while more. It's hard not to see real results though.

mastifflover
September 9th, 2005, 12:42 PM
It can take up to 3-4 months to see a change, it takes quite a while to cleanse their system.I have never heard of this food so I really can't comment on it but why is there such an increase in the amount of food, usually higher quality food reduces the amount you feed. You could also add fish oil and omega 3 & 6's as a supplement excellent for coat and general health

Dog Dancer
September 9th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Mastifflover, thanks for the reply. I wondered too about the increase in food and figured it was because it's vegetarian they must need more to reach the protein levels or something... I'm going to take the ingredients info panel with me to the vet tomorrow for his input. I had never heard of this brand either, but Cactus Flower who used to post here regularly recommended it as her Dane (?) Raj had meat allergies and she thought it was very helpful to them. I do think it has helped a bit, but it's still early I guess. I laughed yesterday because we were having a BBQ for dinner and BF loves to feed the dogs from the table :evil: So he likes to slip Halo bits of lamb even though I leave cooked carrots out for her (which she loves). He said to me last night that Halo was a smart dog and she was going to teach herself to talk just so she could tell me to F***Off because she knows we're feeding Shadow lamb and her carrots. It was very funny! Poor Halo.

coppperbelle
September 11th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Select Ingredients
Ground Rice, Soy Flour, Ground Pearled Barley, Canola Oil (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Ascorbic Acid), Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potatoes, Avocado Oil, Carrots, Peas, Flax Seed Meal, Dried Kelp, Salt, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Garlic Oil, Dried Garlic Powder, Dried Onion Powder, Dried Yucca Schidigera, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Ferrous Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite.

I found the list of ingredients for the AvoDerm vegetarian food. One of the first ingredients is Soy flour. The most common source of ingredients that dogs are allergic to are wheat, corn and soy. This may be why you are not seeing any change in your dogs condition.
Personally I would try a change of foods to something more natural such as my favorite Solid Gold. The ingredients are all natural and do not contain any wheat, corn or soy. You could also try adding Seameal which is sold by Solid Gold to your dogs food. Among other things it can help boost your dogs immune system.
It can take a long time for a dog to detoxify so when doing a switch to a food like Solid Gold it may take months to see a real difference. When I switched my dogs I saw a difference within weeks with one of my dogs. It took 4 months with the other.

Prin
September 12th, 2005, 12:13 AM
Be careful too because from what I have heard, soy can cause excess gas, which in turn can cause bloat. :eek:

I agree, that the food should be wheat, corn, soy, brewer's rice free. A lot of dogs are also allergic to white rice, and since it's cheaper than brown, you can assume if it's not specified, it's probably white. But if you are pretty certain that it's the meat protein, you might be up a creek if the doggy has a soy allergy too...

You haven't done allergy tests yet, right? I would do that (it's a bit expensive) because I would fear for my own mental health trying to figure it out... :D

Dog Dancer
September 12th, 2005, 11:25 AM
Thanks CopperBelle and Prin, yes I read the ingredients too, and saw the soy and figured that was where some of the protein may be coming from (?). I spoke to the vet about it on the weekend and he thought a vegetarian diet was a good thing to try for Halo, but also cautioned about the soy. He also said that when BF gives Halo just one bite of meat it can cause a reaction for three weeks! :eek: It's an upwards battle with him.

CopperBelle I have tried the Solid Gold Wolf King with Halo and it didn't work - do they sell a veggie one?? I'll have to look into that, I need new food this week.

I didn't think to ask the vet, but what's the opinion if it's a meat allergy could she get away with fish and potato? In the past when I tried that we were still feeding her moose meat with her food (not having pinned it to being a meat protein thing perhaps). Currently Halo still have very loose stools, and she vomited again this morning - just bile and tiny one potato from last night.

I do agree Prin that at some point I may need to do the allergy test route.
The vet did say I coudl give her 50 mg of Benadryl twice a day easily to ease her itchiness. I gave her one pill on Saturday night at bedtime (as she had been scratching and restless all night Friday), and she was so sound asleep I actually had to go check on her a couple times because I was worried about her! But I don't want to use drugs to make her comfortable.

Prin
September 12th, 2005, 05:59 PM
I just don't know specifically what "meat protein" means. If it's from muscle fibres, then fish might have it too...

The thing is you can end up with a huge list and realize that there was always at least one of them in the diet you were feeding no matter what you switch to...

Solid Gold doesn't have any veggie formulas.
Wysong has a vegan one (I'm used to looking at meaty foods, so I can't tell if it's good or not...)
Wysong Vegan (http://wysong.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WOTTPWS&Product_Code=VEGAN&Category_Code=CD&Product_Count=20)

coppperbelle
September 12th, 2005, 08:03 PM
When you tried the Solid Gold, how long did you try it? It can take months for it to show results. In their magazine they say up to 4 months. They also recommend using SeaMeal with the food as it boosts the immune system which is the first step in keeping allergies in checks.
A friend of mine has a lab with severe allergies. Hers are mostly seasonal. In the early spring I saw her after not having seen her in about 4 months. I found her coat was in a very poor condition. She was chewing on her paws, licking the base of her tail and her ears were full of guck. She was not pleasant to be around, poor thing. My friend said that she had to find another food for her. I recommended the Dick Van Patten,s Duck and Potato and Omega 3 fish capsules daily. The difference in her coat is amazing. She still has the itchies but nothing like it was before. I dog sat her last week and it is minimal.
When you find a new food do not give her anything else even carrots as snacks. You can of course give her pieces of kibble as treats. I believe that Wellness also has an allergy food.
Good luck

Prin
September 12th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I think it's the Fish and Sweet Potato one.
Wellness (www.oldmotherhubbard.com)

Dog Dancer
September 13th, 2005, 12:05 PM
I did try the Dick VanPatten duck and potato and some time back I tried the Wellness fish and sweet potato. I have probably given each about three months, but have switched when Halo's symptoms seemed to get worse rather than even stay the same or improve. I would have thought with a vegetarian diet, that had carrots in it, boiled carrots would be an okay treat? Anyhow, she's not doing well at all on this one, the rash has gotten worse, she has the runs and is vomiting sporadically in the early morning hours. I am going to bail on this brand (the Avo Derm Vegetarian) even though it's only been a short while. I'm going to try the Wellness fish and potato again only this time with no meat treats for her. That may have been part of our problem.

Prin I agree that one day I may have to do allergy tests. I also think some may be seasonal as she has peaks and valleys. Anyhow, all I know is this veggie one does not seem to be agreeing with her at all right now. Of all the ones we've tried in the past while the fish and potato seemed to have the least bad results (with meat) so I think that's what I'll try.

You guys are great for all your input. It's nice to have a sounding board. I don't really feel like I'm giving these things long enough, but if the condition gets worse I'm asuming that's not a good thing. Gave Halo another 25mg benadryl last night to help her sleep through the itchy nights. The darn thing makes her semi-comatose almost. Then I can't sleep because I'm worried about her - which defeats the purpose for me, I might as well listen to her scratch! But she did wake me up at 2 am to go out and have the runs so at least she wasn't that comatose. I'm not giving her those anymore, unless it's really bad, then maybe just 1/2 a pill as she seems very sensative to them.

Prin
September 13th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Are they human benadryls? I ask because maybe the human form would be weaker (less of a dose)... I know for my doggies, it would be like 3 or 4 human pills every 4 hours, and I gave Jemma one once and she got the runs...

I agree- if it gets worse on the new food, then switch away from it. What about Innova? Nevermind, they all have rice...

Here's one- it might be very hard to find, but it has none of the "usual suspects".
Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue: http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&pg=ste_oform#
Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

Prin
September 13th, 2005, 12:15 PM
Here are stores that carry them in BC:
http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F1703333&rnd=4049491&rrc=N&affl=&cip=66.131.93.210&act=&aff=&pg=dealloc&stateprov=British%20Columbia

Dog Dancer
September 13th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Prin, Thank you so much for this info. I actually shop at Van Pet and they are listed as a supplier. I will go there today to get some. You are so helpful thanks again. Gotta run, I'm at work. Isn't there a kissy smilie on here???

Halo says thanks too! :love:

Dog Dancer
September 13th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Hi Prin, sorry forgot to answer your benadryl question. Yes they are human benadryl - 25 mg. As I said the vet said give her 50 mg twice a day. I'd be afraid to. I don't plan on giving her any more now though, perhaps the new runs are related to that as well, although if memory serves correct I think that started up sooner than the benadryl as I've only give it to her twice now. The upside of that though is when the ambulance went by in the middle of the night last night she was too zonked out to howl at it ;)

Dog Dancer
September 13th, 2005, 01:48 PM
Prin this is so strange, I looked up the locator again to find that timberwolf organics food and my doggy day care is listed as a sales outlet. How wild is that??? I'm assuming he'd have to order it in as I didn't think they actually sold food stuff, but I'm going to call him now in case it helps him out financially too. Tks again

Prin
September 13th, 2005, 03:03 PM
Doesn't hurt to ask... Unfortunately (for them), most places don't make too much profit on dog food...

Ask if you can get samples. I can't imagine that it wouldn't be tasty, but I can't seem to get it anywhere around here, so I don't know anybody on it at all...

And ya, Jemma got the runs the same day we gave her a benadryl, so it's probably the culrit. Who ever said doggies have it easy? :D

Dog Dancer
September 14th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Hi Prin, I don't know where you get all your info on dog food from, you seem to know it all!! I tried several stores listed on the site and nobody had the Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue in stock, all said they could order it in. So I went to my regular pet store and they said it wasn't listed - they do carry other Timberwold Organics products. So she called the distributor to ask about the Ocean Blue and he told her it was new and there was no demand so he wouldn't sell her anything less than a full skid. So then I called my doggy daycare guy who was listed and he called his supplier who turned out to be the same guy and he couldn't get it either. So Ryan (daycare guy) said if I drop him off the ingredients he'll look for something similar. I pointed out to him that he might want to tell the supplier that if he put some in the stores he might get some demand :rolleyes: Anyhow, I did switch Halo back to Wellness fish and sweet potato and already her poops are firmer, and she really does seem to like it much more. The pet store lady is also going to try to find something else for me. I really want the Ocean Blue though, but can't afford a skid!!! To say nothing of expiry dates...

But thanks for all your info Prin. If you see anything else let me know. :angel:

Dog Dancer
September 14th, 2005, 06:03 PM
Went to a website today www.optimaldog.com , they are the distributor that I was talking to today who will not bring in the Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue formula. They want to see how it performs on the market before they commit to carrying it apparently. He did tell me to search over their website and check out the Fromm products and another N-R-G dehydrated product. He said the NRG had a fish product but I didn't see it listed. The Fromm Salmon a la Veg Dog Formula looks interesting? Don't know the pricing on it yet though. I'll carry on my search.

coppperbelle
September 14th, 2005, 07:09 PM
Ingredients
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oatmeal | Rye | Menhaden Fish Meal | Potatoes | Salmon Oil | Sesame Oil | Almond Oil | Lentils | Dried Seaweed Meal | Spearmint | Dried Pumpkin | Quinoa | Dried Cranberries | Dried Apples | Dried Chicory Root | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Sodium Selenite | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

I am told thi is not a complete food and that it must be supplemented. I had a sample for one of my dogs and she scarfed it down.

Prin
September 14th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Pet stores who don't know say that about all Solid Gold foods because Solid Gold recommends the Sea Meal with them. They misunderstand and then misinform...

I don't know of any others that are as "usual-allergen-free- as the Ocean Blue... They all end up having some sort of rice or other grains that could trigger a reaction.

How many bags are in a skid?

I know mostly about the Wellness-Solid Gold-Merrick range of foods- not much about the better ones because I had to research like madness for Jemma and Boo. Jemma is allergic to wheat and corn (among other stuff that I probably don't know the half of) and Boo can't eat a single crumb of chicken or poultry, so I had to search. That's how I found the solid gold. It was between that and Timberwolf but there is even less of the latter around here. :rolleyes:

You might just have to get a third (and fourth) doggy to make the food go faster... :D

But see how she does on the Wellness first... And I'll keep searching... It'll be hard because the higher up you get in the dog food quality and specificity, the harder it is to find it...

Dog Dancer
September 15th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Prin and CopperBelle, thanks for staying on this thread with me. I truly appreciate the input. Halo has only been on the Wellness for two days now and her stools are decidedly 100% better than before. And I'm quite certain they were runny prior to the benadryl pills. Anyhow, that's good. I spoke with the distributor and he mentioned the SolidGold (I think it was that, or maybe it was wellness but my brain span is soooo short) Holistic that you mentioned CopperBelle, but he didn't think it would be suitable for a younger dog like Halo. I believe he said it was too low in protein and fat to sustain her. Anyhow, apparently they are not the only distributor (although he didn't go so far as to give me names of the others) so my mission now is to call a few of the other pet stores and see if they have a different distributor. If so I'll be all over it. Good point Prin, I should ask how many on a skid? Maybe I could go into sales myself :D Well gotta run for now. Thanks again.

Prin
September 15th, 2005, 12:15 PM
Ask how many and when the expiry date is. If it's something like 6 bags and you have more than a year, I think you can do it...

Dog Dancer
September 15th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Aw Prin, I just called Timberwolf Organics in Florida, their website showed the 33 lb bag for $45.99 US but in the order section you could fill in Canadian shipping info and such. So I decided I would phone and order one. She then tells me we don't ship to Canada! I want this stuff so bad now and they won't ship it to me. :sad: I called the distributor and he said a skid has 50-60 bags :eek: - even Halo can't eat that much... Even both dogs wouldn't eat that much, and I'd be happy to have both on it if it's a good food. Anyhow, the best he could do was say if they place an order through the Washington distributor they would see if they could get me a couple bags. Let's keep our fingers crossed :fingerscr Tks again Prin

jessi76
September 15th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Did you see this list?

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F4446302&rnd=3394491&rrc=N&affl=&cip=155.212.201.201&act=&aff=&pg=dealloc&country=Canada

A dealer of Timberwolf organics was just at a pet festival I went to w/ my pup this past weekend, and Tucker would not leave the bags of food alone. They had a bunch there, a few on the ground, and he was trying to bust into the bags.

Prin
September 15th, 2005, 02:24 PM
Aw that sucks! 50 bags!!! That's like 5 years worth! No wonder they don't order it! Geez- who can sell 50 bags! Who can store 50 bags?! That's just nuts.

I'll have to get on my search sooner then... :)

Dog Dancer
September 15th, 2005, 03:24 PM
This search has developed a life of it's own... Jessi thanks for the link, yes I've been to it, unfortunately in this area they all have the same distributor who does not want to bring the new Ocean Blue product into the market yet. He wants to see how it goes in other markets first. He carries several of their other lines, but not the Ocean Blue. Unfortunately Halo is allergic to any of the meat and poultry type lines. I tried to order directly and they won't ship to Canada. Bummer. But thanks for your input, I appreciate every little bit. Poor Halo has been through the wringer with foods - apparently Prin's gone there with Boo and Jemma too. What's with all the allergies our pets have these days? I'm going to see if my sister in Toronto can find it and ship me a bag..

Prin
September 15th, 2005, 05:48 PM
My doggies weren't as broadly allergic as yours so I had is easy in comparison.

I asked myself the same question- I didn't remember any of the dogs I grew up with having allergies, and I think the difference is my parents didn't notice. Now that it's on me, I'm so watchful. :) I love my babies, and I don't like them being itchy or pukey, whatever the cost. :love:

Dog Dancer
September 15th, 2005, 06:07 PM
You forgot or as goopy poopy :evil:

I wondered about all the Separation Anxiety dogs too and my daycare fella and I discussed it and we decided in our parents time you just got rid of a dog that had all those issues. Now, fortunately, most of us don't do that anymore.

I am now actively putting lines out to all my friends who may be travelling to the US to bring me home Ocean Blue!!

Prin
September 15th, 2005, 09:16 PM
I remember locking doggies in a room when they couldn't stay in the house without chewing... I also remember being the only one who felt guilty leaving the doggies alone for long periods of time- I was the only one who looked back and saw their separation anxiety-ridden expressions... :(

Good luck with the food- but what happens for the next bag?

Dog Dancer
September 16th, 2005, 11:23 AM
I'm going to try for two bags (33 lbs). Even if Halo reacts badly Shadow will eat anything I offer her and this stuff can't be that bad for her. I hope that by then maybe there will be a demand for it here and they'll start bringing it in. Anyhow, if it works you can rest assured I'll find a way!!!

I know what you mean about feeling guilty leaving the dogs alone though. Shadow's SA is terrible, although she has really taken to staying on the upper patio at BF's house during the day when I'm at work. She hasn't been to doggy day care in almost two months now. This is a good thing - if that keeps up I can actually afford the more expensive dog food... Now I only go to day care to drop off home made cookies for the owner. He's actually friends with the distributor of this food and I'll tell him to let the guy know if he gets me the food I'll bake him a carrot cake (which people tell me I should do professionally :rolleyes: ). I don't think licking all those icing bowls would be good for me though.

I'll keep you posted if I get some though. I REALLY want this stuff.