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i have satans dog

theduke
August 30th, 2005, 11:35 PM
I bought this dog from a kill shelter and when i got him he was over a year old. now, this dog chews and i mean he chews wires, bottles, carpet, beds, walls, cats pretty much anything that can be chewed he chews. he has many many real bones (the ones that cost a lot) and the bones that can be easily chewed. i know for a fact he has had some training because hes one stupid dog but he knows the sit and lay down commands. not only does he chew he also cant sit still for more than 5 seconds and he only sleeps like an hour a night. im almost postive he was abused by his old owners because he gets startled very easily and he always has to be close to you.

now getting rid of him really isnt an option cause he would be put to sleep if he goes back to a kill shelter cause hes a really big dog and if someone were to test him if to see his temper he would fail cause he will snap at you if you try and take away whatever hes chewing. also this dog is just so darn helpless i mean he got caught in a phone wire not really caught but he though he did so he just stood there and whined till i got him loose. i just cant see myself giving him a death sentence i mean im sure he doesnt mean to be this way and hes a very good looking dog.


i know my grammar is bad but any info of maybe meds or something to help him would mean all the world to me

thanks

StaceyB
August 31st, 2005, 12:22 AM
It sounds like this dog has had very little or no training and he seems like he is not getting enough exercise. Whatever amount of exercise he gets double it. I would also get him enrolled in training classes. He doesn't learn manners on his own. He needs to be taught. What breed is he?

Sneaky
August 31st, 2005, 12:44 AM
Yes,
I would say your best option for this dog is
to train him.
You cant expect the dog to learn the rules on his
own. Training classes would be excellent for you.
Also, dogs often chew things they are supposed to
when they arent getting enough exercise or mental
stimulation. Perhaps a few new toys and bones and
some more fetch and some walks may help in your training
process.

shannonRN
August 31st, 2005, 01:20 AM
Yes, lots and lots of activity and mental stimulation, which includes training. Train useful commands, like come and stay, but train tricks, games and whatever else you can do to keep this guy busy. "Drop" would be a really good command for this guy.

Dog-proof the place as much as you can. Everything out of reach. My GSD ate everything and anything when he was younger--pulled curtains off the wall, blankets off the bed, ate books, remote controls, shoes, and just anything he could reach if we got sloppy and left something around. You need to make these things very inaccessible and then reinforce him for using the toys you provide for him. I would only reintroduce these things gradually when you get his behavior under control and he reliably uses doggie toys.

I would crate train him for the times you are not there to keep him and your house safe, but keep in mind that he should not be crated for prolonged periods of time and confining him may make the problem worse, in a way. He will need that much more activity and stimulation when he is 'free.'

This dog sounds like he could have used a really experienced dog owner/trainer, but do your best and don't give up on the guy.

theduke
August 31st, 2005, 05:37 PM
thanks guys i also realize now this is the wrong forum for this post. to asnwer some questions the dog i guess is a black lab but his short hair i would say is kind of rough. i really have no idea what he is. now for the training i really cant afford that right now but when this is possible i will for sure. i mean yes i guess i could learn how to train my dog before i can take him to a pro? he actually has another dog to play with (sorry forgot) but he chews on her the whole time so yeah he just goes for walks and i guess thats about all he does

i wont give up ever on this dog no matter what hes already ruined tons of stuff. i kind of feel cheated right now because this dog was replacing my golden retiver that died in 2003. she would sleep with me i mean she was just a perfect loving dog but right now this dog )satan dog) doesnt feel like my dog. ill admit right now i was looking for the easy way out thats why i didnt buy a puppy i was hoping this wouldnt have been a problem if i got a older dog

Roxy's_MA
August 31st, 2005, 05:45 PM
Well, another upside to getting the adult dog is you saved a life :D

Maybe you could get a book to help you with the training at home until you can afford to take her to obedience. Good Luck!!

StaceyB
August 31st, 2005, 05:53 PM
Why do you thnk that you posted in the wrong forum?
Labs need to have a lot of exercise. You can also teach your dog a few manners and simple cues to get you started but adding to your exercise program will make a big difference. Check out training facilities in your area, you may be able to find one who will offer a payment plan. You will need to train this dog as if it were an 8 wk old puppy. He has no useful skills yet and will need to learn them. Nothing you are going to do will be a quick fix but there are things you can do to make life a little easier while he learns the rules.

Roxy's_MA
August 31st, 2005, 05:56 PM
I think the OP meant that it should be under training and not Pet health.

justncase
August 31st, 2005, 07:14 PM
Your dog sounds abused(previous owners), hyper, and may possibly have pica, a condition caused by malnutrition whereby an animal will chew, lick or eat all manner of inedible things. I don't know about putting training first for a dog like this. You may just drive him around the bend( if he isn't there already) I would say improve the diet to the best you can afford ,a really good high-quality dog food with meat not just corn and fillers and add lots of raw beef with the addition of plant-derived colloidal minerals , digestive enzymes, and probiotics foods . As for his behavior ( snapping, etc), if you really knew what he's been through you may wonder why he isn't acting alot worse. There are two Bach Flower Essences that should help - Vervain and Star of Bethlehem. 5 drops as needed on a little bit of wet food. Even every minutes.It's non-toxic so you can use it as much as you want and you can even add some to the water bowl( 10 drops ). A health food store should be able to help you with buying the above items.

coppperbelle
August 31st, 2005, 07:21 PM
Your dog sounds just like mine did 4 years ago. Sounds like he may have separation anxiety. Do you have a crate? This will help keep him safe when you are not home or able to watch him. I could not crate my dog as she would pee and poop in the crate and then walk in it. Needless to say there was an awful mess when I got home.
You can ask your vet for medication. I tried Clomicalm on my dog but it didn't really work. There are other medications available that may relieve some of the stress he is feeling.
How long have you had him? It took my dog months for mine to settle in and begin to trust. She still has some issues with trust and probably will for the rest of her life.
For now give him lots of exercise.
I want to commend you on adopting this dog and your committment to keeping it. With time and patience I am sure you will be rewarded with a great companion.

raingirl
August 31st, 2005, 07:22 PM
If you need a suggestion on a training book, get "Teach yourself visually-Dog Training". Here is a link so you can see what it looks like:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764569139/qid=1125534095/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4337036-0571203?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's a positive based training book, and most of the trainers are super dog trainers (including one that I went to who was a consultant for the book).

It's a really good book for teaching step by step.

StaceyB
August 31st, 2005, 07:54 PM
So many dogs who have not been socialized come across as a dog who has been abused. I don't think this is an abused dog. I think somes rules and more exercise will solve the problems.
If this dog were 3 months old showing the same behaviours what would you say. This dog has as much training as a very young puppy so the same training steps need to be taken.

justncase
August 31st, 2005, 08:09 PM
If this dog were 3 months old showing the same behaviours what would you say. This dog has as much training as a very young puppy so the same training steps need to be taken.


If the puppy came from a kill shelter, I'd probably say the same. Some dogs have been driven stark raving mad when rules and training were pushed too early, especially when they came from a history of abuse.

StaceyB
August 31st, 2005, 08:20 PM
Different opinions I guess. I would say the opposite. I believe that when a routine has been set up and the dog knows what is expected of him the household environment will be far less stressful and he will begin to settle in and follow those rules. It will take a lot of patience and hard work because it is much easier to teach a new good behaviour than to change a bad one.

justncase
August 31st, 2005, 08:25 PM
Different opinions I guess. I would say the opposite. I believe that when a routine has been set up and the dog knows what is expected of him the household environment will be far less stressful and he will begin to settle in.


That would work if you had a normal dog under normal circumstances. In this case, it isn't.

StaceyB
August 31st, 2005, 08:37 PM
Besides where he came from I didn't get any info that would state a bad history besides the fact that he is a year old with no training and mental/physical stimulation. Many shelters are kill shelters.
I would like to ask the op whether this dog is distructive only when he is home alone. He could have some degree of separation anxiety.

theduke
August 31st, 2005, 09:26 PM
you guys are really great! i dont get near this much help comapred to other boards i go to (human health boards).

Roxy's_MA, i hate to admit this but at this point if i knew i didnt save his life he would have already been gone before i started to look for help for him

StaceyB, thanks for the info. i think he does have some traning though because he knows sit and lay and is potty trained. about the comment train him like a puppy thats a good way of putting it, he still has a puppy face too! ive had the dog i dont know maybe 5 months ago but like i said he was a yearold when i got him. what i see as abused might in fact be something else cause i dont know a lot about dogs ill admit. you gotta figure though why would someone take a real nice great looking dog to a kill shelter?

justncase, thanks i will for sure check out your diet info. my old school way of thinking is buy the cheapest dog food you can find. yes would make sense he was abused really i think this dog could drive a nun into abusing him. i really dont want to think what hes been through... it must have been a nightmare

raingirl, thanks a bunch for that book info.


coppperbelle, i have some crates (cat crates) this dog is just massive though so i would prob need to buy a dog cage and the pet stores around here when it comes to that kind of stuff are just plain scammers for what they charge. ill ask about that med thanks but when i posted that topic i was a little on edge so im gonna take it slow and try all this other stuff first. thanks for commending me on keeping the dog. the way i look at is: the dog may not be smart but what if he knows whats going on? i mean going from home to home and in the end be put down thats just not right. im hoping with the training and such and when he gets older he will calm down.


forgot to add i think hes also a little blind he doesnt know he can go though stuff when he can easily or he'll bump into things

pamha
August 31st, 2005, 10:54 PM
If you have a farm & home type supply store (Big R here) they often have dog supplies cheaper than a pet store. We got a med. size dog crate for about $20 less than I`ve seen in pet stores.

StaceyB
August 31st, 2005, 11:05 PM
The reason someone gave up a dog like him could be for the same behaviours that are driving you nuts. You would be surprised how many people get a dog and think that they just learn on their own how to behave well in the house. Did you get any history on him.
If you give me his size I will tell you what size crate you will need. His last home may have started training with him, probably in the first month they had him but quit or didn't follow through. A dog of his age should have more manners and skills by now. It may also be possible that he was kept outside. I have found that outside dogs house break very easily. This would also explain his lack of manners. Keep your receipt for the crate incase he has separation anxiety. Dogs with it will usually harm themselves trying to get out.

justncase
August 31st, 2005, 11:40 PM
OP, you say you have a dog who " chews and i mean he chews wires, bottles, carpet, beds, walls, cats pretty much anything that can be chewed he chews."..... not only does he chew he also can't sit still for more than 5 seconds and he only sleeps like an hour a night" and you're thinking of crating this dog? In a confined space? If you think he's Satan's dog now wait til you crate him.

jessi76
September 1st, 2005, 08:36 AM
Your dog is very lucky to have an owner like you, willing to work through it all.

You've gotten some excellent advice on many ways to help him, I just wanted to give you a suggestion on a crate (if you decide to go that route) - ebay has quite a few, ranging from $20-$300+... there may be one the size you need, and even with shipping, could be alot cheaper than buying new.

Trinitie
September 1st, 2005, 09:42 AM
Justncase - not necessarily will the dog get worse if he's crated. Most dogs will sleep the day away if crated in a chew proof crate with something in there for them to chew on.

When the dog isn't crated, then it's in training. Consistency is the key to an unruly dog. Routine will help the dog understand their place in the "pack". Also remember "a tired dog is a good dog!" (credit Dr. Stanley Coren)

Is your dog food driven or praise driven? If food driven, keep treats in your pocket and have training sessions before feeding time. If praise driven, find a favorite toy and keep it on hand for a nice fuss-up session when the dog does good.

Kudos to you for adopting this unwanted slobber face! :thumbs up

savannah
September 1st, 2005, 10:00 AM
I must say that this dog is very lucky to have you as an owner. many people would not be as dedicated as you are.

You have been given some really great advice (as this board always does) but i just wanted to add that i have a dog, with what my vet has termed "senility" and i think it is mixed with just plain Anxiety. I have tried the Bach's rescue remedy, a few drops as described above did not work for my dog. I tried a few homeopathic ways to get my dog to settle down, but they did not work so i went and spoke to my vet. At that point i was in tears because I was miserable with the lack of sleep. Since my dogs anxiety is only at night, we only give him the medication just before bed, and it mostly always works. I would suggest speaking to your vet if nothing else the other posters have mentioned works (which hopefully something will)
Someone else mentioned routine, and getting your dog used to a routine. I really recommend that as well. I have found my rescue dog to be "satans dog" when we break the day to day routine. When we follow our regular routine, he knows what's going on, and sleeps through the night. When we have had a hectic day, not even the full amount of meds the doc recommended works. (right now i only give him a half as opposed to the 1 - 3 pills vet recommended).
Good luck!

justncase
September 1st, 2005, 12:22 PM
Concerning the comments:

Trinitie:
"Most dogs will sleep the day away if crated in a chew proof crate with something in there for them to chew on."

Reply:
This isn't " most" dogs. This is an abused, hyper, malnourished(in other words, starving for the proper food) dog suffering from a number of emotional problems one of which most certainly is, as someone mentioned, seapration anxiety and this does not fit the norm of what can be described as " most dogs".

Savannah:
" i just wanted to add that i have a dog, with what my vet has termed "senility" and i think it is mixed with just plain Anxiety. I have tried the Bach's rescue remedy, a few drops as described above did not work for my dog. I tried a few homeopathic ways to get my dog to settle down, but they did not work so i went and spoke to my vet. "

Reply:
Bach Flower Essences are not a willynilly art. It's not possible to pick one essence and hope it covers the emotional need then say they don't work . What your vet described as " senility" and what you term as " anxiety" may not be what your dog was experiencing at all. BFE's are exactly tailored to the exact need of the pet. There are at least 6 for fear alone depending on the type of fear experienced.

OP, meet the nutritional needs of your dog, first. That is his first great need. In other words, feed your dog the best nutrition you can afford, lots of raw beef and the supplements I listed previously. IMO, just go with that for a couple of weeks. Sure you can drug a dog who is half-starved , and you can crate him , and you can try to make him conform to a list of rules and regulations, maybe all that later, but you may not have to , later, if you give your dog what he needs now. The proper nutrition , and I don't mean just an expensive bag of dog food, but that and lots of raw beef and the supplements I mentioned. Go with that and see what you're dealing with in a couple of weeks. You may find that you have a different dog, not one who is not half-crazed from malnutrition so much so that he's hyper, can't sleep and eating everything in sight to try and fill that nutritional void he feels.

StaceyB
September 1st, 2005, 01:07 PM
Concerning the comments:

Reply:
This isn't " most" dogs. This is an abused, hyper, malnourished(in other words, starving for the proper food) dog suffering from a number of emotional problems one of which most certainly is, as someone mentioned, seapration anxiety and this does not fit the norm of what can be described as " most dogs".

I read through the op's posts again and didn't see anywhere that all of what you stated above is the case.

Though he may have some form of separation anxiety. He may just be very confused as to what is going to happen on a daily basis, constant guessing is stressful. Setting up a consistant routine will most likely help him to calm because he will know what is expected of him. If a dog has not been taught how to behave in our world they won't. A crate may very well help him. It is possible that being left in large open spaces(home) is more stressful and creates more anxiety than having a comfortable den to know he is safe.
Daily exercise, training and routine are an absolute need for this dog.

Trinitie
September 1st, 2005, 01:08 PM
I re-read the original post and have come up with the best solution.

It's almost impossible to say with certainty if this dog was abused or not. It sounds to me like the dog was dumped because of his behavioral problems.

A dog that snaps when annoyed, or if you're trying to take something away from it, is a dog that's not properly trained. This would explain why it's jumpy and nervous. Most dogs who've been allowed to be in charge of the family pack are very nervous and unsure of themselves. Especially at just over a year old.

"Most" dogs will lie in a kennel/crate and sleep refers to just that - most dogs. To begin training this dog properly, crate training is a must. This dog is acting out because he doesn't know any better. He needs structure in his life. Crate training gives him that. It also gives him a safe sanctuary to retreat to when he feels threatened.

This dog sleeps only an hour a night. He needs more excercise during the day. Make him tired at bed time. Put him in his crate, by your bed, at bed time and if he starts to whine/whimper, correct him by hushing him.

This dog needs to be treated like a puppy. He may be housebroken, but he has the manners of a puppy - none. You must become his alpha.

YOU set the feeding schedule - NO free feeding for him (yet)
YOU tell him what he can and cannot play with
YOU tell him what rooms he's allowed to go into when you're not there
YOU tell him what direction to walk in when you're out for walks

YOU are in charge NOT him! Structure. This dog needs structure.

StaceyB
September 1st, 2005, 01:27 PM
I see many dogs like this in my profession and in almost all cases the dog has had no training(manners) and proper socialization, the dog has learned to make his own decisions because his/ her person had not taken this role. The dog has had little or no regular tiring exercise and finds ways to get rid of it on their own, distructive/anxious behaviour. It is very rare that these dogs had been abused.
In almost every case the behaviours can be corrected with exercise, socialization and training.
The majority of dogs are given up because of bad behaviours.

justncase
September 1st, 2005, 01:59 PM
In the above two replies no one has addressed the reason for this behavior ( posted by OP) :

"I bought this dog from a kill shelter and when i got him he was over a year old. now, this dog chews and i mean he chews wires, bottles, carpet, beds, walls, cats pretty much anything that can be chewed he chews. he has many many real bones (the ones that cost a lot) and the bones that can be easily chewed."

No amount of crating or training is going to give a malnourished dog what he needs. Chewing wires, bottles , carpet, beds, walls, etc is a sign of pica pure and simple. In fact it is a standard textbook case. Fix that first.

Abused? Let's see what the OP had to say ( and he's seen the dog and has lived with him for a year)

" im almost postive he was abused by his old owners "

If the dog is as impossible to live with as the OP has said, can abuse be ruled out completely somewhere in this dog's history? And how was that abuse distributed- emotional? physical? dietary?
As far as I'm concerned, OP, deal with the pica first. Feed your dog the best you can afford with the added supplements mentioned and see what kind of
dog you have in two weeks. You may be pleasantly surprised.

StaceyB
September 1st, 2005, 02:15 PM
I think we have addressed it and offered solutions for the behaviour. Though a better quality diet would be great I don't think it is the cause of his behaviour. He has only had this dog 5 months and did say that he hasn't done any training. There has also been a comparison of their last dog(well behaved) and this one and may be having a difficult time bonding with him.

Trinitie
September 1st, 2005, 02:22 PM
In the above two replies no one has addressed the reason for this behavior ( posted by OP) :

"I bought this dog from a kill shelter and when i got him he was over a year old."

No amount of crating or training is going to give a malnourished dog what he needs. Chewing wires, bottles , carpet, beds, walls, etc is a sign of pica pure and simple. In fact it is a standard textbook case. Fix that first.Why do you insist this dog has pica? The dog chews. Plain and simple. My puppy chews anything she can get her mouth on, and she doesn't have pica. It's a training issue, otherwise we could accuse the OP of keeping the dog malnourished. Nowhere does the OP state that the dog is not eating his food. He simply states that the dog is chewing anything and everything. Please do not read more into it than is stated.

Abused? Let's see what the OP had to say ( and he's seen the dog and has lived with him for a year)The OP simply states that the dog was adopted at over a year old to replace the companion lost in 2003. The OP does not say that they've HAD the dog for over a year. The OP states they've had the dog only 5 months, and the dog is still a puppy.

" im almost postive he was abused by his old owners "

If the dog is as impossible to live with as the OP has said, can abuse be ruled out completely somewhere in this dog's history? And how was that abuse distributed- emotional? physical? dietary?
As far as I'm concerned, OP, deal with the pica first. Feed your dog the best you can afford with the added supplements mentioned and see what kind of
dog you have in two weeks. You may be pleasantly surprised.The OP says that they THINK the dog has been abused. Yes, the dog may have been abused, that's not being ruled out. BUT, it does primarily appear to be a training issue. Only telling the OP to work on pica and feed the dog the "best you can afford with the added supplements" is NOT the way to go. The most expensive food does not guarantee the BEST food. With the best food, supplements are not needed.

OP - I highly recommend you talk to a behaviourist to rule out temperment issues. If the temperment of the dog is good, and it's only a training issue, then you can easily get a handle on this out of control pup.

Your dog needs to be exercised by walking him, not just plunking him in the back yard with another dog to play. They will not exercise themselves enough to burn the excess energy. Once you find yourself taking the dog on evening walks, just before bed, you'll find that the dog will sleep for more than an hour a night. Other than that, follow the simple training methods mentioned above. The dog must earn it's freedom in the house. Simply giving the dog the freedom you "think" it needs isn't the way to go. If you do grant too much freedom and allow the dog to do what it wants, you've giving the dog the rights to make its own rules as it goes along. Something you definately don't want to do. Once you keep this dog in line, you may find that it's a good companion, just like your long lost friend.

StaceyB
September 1st, 2005, 02:35 PM
Well said Trinite

You can also exercise by playing fetch. Training exercises will also help to tire him out. I have my students play fetch(practice cue give), and hide and seek(practice come and wait). Exercise and training can be made fun. OP as for crating your life and his will be less stressful if he is unable to touch and chew items which are classified as no chew items. It is possible that he is maturing later than some, hitting adolescence late. You will need to puppy proof your home the same you would do with a young pup. He may be a little older but his skills are not developed.

justncase
September 1st, 2005, 03:02 PM
Why do you insist this dog has pica? The dog chews. Plain and simple. My puppy chews anything she can get her mouth on, and she doesn't have pica. It's a training issue, otherwise we could accuse the OP of keeping the dog malnourished. Nowhere does the OP state that the dog is not eating his food. He simply states that the dog is chewing anything and everything. Please do not read more into it than is stated..

Why would you insist that the dog doesn't? Do you know about the symptoms exhibited for pica? Is it possible this dog is malnourished? Just because the OP has had the dog for 5 months doesn't mean that the malnutrition didn't start long before that and such things can't easily be corrected by, what did the OP say he fed his dog ....."my old school way of thinking is buy the cheapest dog food you can find." Either way, what's there against feeding a dog the best nutrition one can afford with added supplements? No harm done by that even if it turns out that the dog doesn't have pica . I don't know though about making a judgment call about a dog one has never met, and not knowing the history or health of this dog yet surmising that this dog automatically only needs training and/or crating.


The OP says that they THINK the dog has been abused. Yes, the dog may have been abused, that's not being ruled out. BUT, it does primarily appear to be a training issue. Only telling the OP to work on pica and feed the dog the "best you can afford with the added supplements" is NOT the way to go. The most expensive food does not guarantee the BEST food. With the best food, supplements are not needed...



Nowhere, that I can find does the OP say he THINKS that the dog has been abused however he does say " Im almost positive he was abused by his old owners."
Also, if you reread my posts I didn't state that just feeding the dog was the only way to go, but that it should be considered first. If the dog really needs training and discipline and is fed what he needs nutritionally , it isn 't as damaging as having a malnourished dog put into training and crating without taking any steps to correct the original problem. Also, I didn't say that the most expensive was the best, I said " the best you can afford" . There's a difference. A big difference. The best means the best, which is not always the most expensive. The best means it IS the most nutritionally balanced not that it says it's the most nutritionally balanced( not always the case) .

StaceyB
September 1st, 2005, 03:11 PM
Pica is ingesting non food items. All he says is that the dog chews. He doesn't say that he is eating these items.
As I mentioned, giving him a better quality food is great but if the dog is receiving a balanced diet, giving him supplements can actually cause health problems and seeing that he is still growing one of these problems can severely interfere with proper growth.

Trinitie
September 1st, 2005, 03:25 PM
While we all know the symptoms of pica, and that it's not a physical problem, but more of a compulsion, we don't seem to understand how you can think it's a psychological problem. If it were only psychological, it wouldn't be trying to chew the other dog, it would be trying to eat it.

justncase, it appears you do not like to be contradicted. This is a training issue. I'm 100% certain that if the OP begins training his dog as he would a pup, then the dog would come around. Lab mixes are quite smart, and he should catch on quickly.

Also, I agree 10000% with feeding the dog a better quality food. I quoted what you said. If you said "best you can afford with the added supplements", then that's what I typed. Will the best possible dog food affordable make a difference? No. Nutro is a very good quality dog food, and is VERY affordable. Costco's Kirkland Dog Food is even cheaper than Nutro, and it's just as good. The label is where it all comes to a boil, not the price & the label. Do not put words in my "hands". And yes, I do read your posts. I even re-read them over again to make certain I wasn't taking anything out of context. My main concern is the dog's behaviour. What are you concerned about?

lezzpezz
September 1st, 2005, 03:58 PM
If I may put in my 2 cents worth. I am not a dog professional as you, Trinitie, are. I have even come to you with questions about training issues and you have been extremely helpful and kind.

I am also not overly knowledgeable regarding pet dietary needs. You, Justncase, seem to have some expertise in this area. You both have terrific ideas and both seem to want the best for the dog in question, and are approaching the issue from different angles.

I think that both avenues you 2 have suggested are most worthy in this case. Training is a must with any dog and this one certainly seems to fall into the "I need guidance and I need it now!" category. Such a rambunctious :evil: that needs to be tuckered out every day and needs lots of exercise. That is plainly evident.

Diet is also crucial at this stage of the dogs life, (and althroughout!...hey...I just invented a word! :p ). A sickly dog is going to show signs of distress, whether by chewing or licking, biting whathaveyou, (another new word??).

What I am unclear on is why the need to get so sticky about it, Justincase? You are BOTH educated folks willing to give your time and free advice to this person. It is just awful sitting back and reading the animosity that is building.

Let's simply say: Get the dog some immediate training and look into something called "pica" and get the dog on a well balanced nourishing healthy diet and call it a day...the poor op reading this must think he walked into a "cat"fight and may leave the board!

For FREE!! materials on training AND healthy diets for dogs, go to your local library and sign them out! Perhaps both Trinitie and Justncase could suggest some appropriate books to look for, as there are a lot of different types of training methods out there, some outdated, some not-so-good and effective. But at the library, all is free and available :o

Trinitie
September 1st, 2005, 04:11 PM
Very well said lezzer! The dog's well being are THE most important here.

I hope the OP hasn't been scared away by all this!

Dog Dancer
September 1st, 2005, 04:49 PM
I'm certainly not a professional on this subject, but sounds like a training thing to me also. I have been told by our trainer that if you incorporate your training into your walks the dog will be more tired at the end of a 20 minute walk than just a 20 minute walk alone. IE: He's got to think and work for the 20 minutes he's out there. It's mentally stimulating and exhausting. Further, clomicalm is not a really good option as it's very expensive. The OP has to work this dog's brain it sounds like. Good luck and bless your patience. As an owner of a dog with separation anxiety I know how tough dog issues can be. And killing them just isn't an option.

justncase
September 1st, 2005, 04:53 PM
I think that's exactly what I said several posts ago:

Either way, what's there against feeding a dog the best nutrition one can afford with added supplements? No harm done by that even if it turns out that the dog doesn't have pica .


That's why all things should be taken into consideration. Pica is not a psychological disorder nor does the animal actually have to ingest for it to be called pica . According to Dr. Martin Schulman, V.M.D. " an astonishingly high percentage ( of dogs) showed significant manifestations of pica, an eating disorder caused by malnutrition.'..." In one case a German Shepherd dog had a history of licking wrought iron and eating glass and Christmas tree lights. An improved diet supplemented with plant-derived colloidal minerals, digestive enzymes, and probiotic foods cured the pica within three weeks."

What if this dog had been trained and crated instead. What would have been the end result of that misdiagnosis?

Lezzerpezzer says " What I am unclear on is why the need to get so sticky about it, Justincase? "

Actually, clarification. It doesn't help anyone to be misquoted within a post or two of one's original post. All I said was, get the nutrition down first, and then I added, deal with the other things later. What's the problem with that? .

Trinitie states "My main concern is the dog's behaviour. What are you concerned about?"

Behavior is just one small part of what makes up an animal and to discount all the rest in favour of behavior is to do a huge disservice to the animal in question. What am I concerned about? I'm concerned with this dog's health, welfare and that the right solution , not a one-size-fits-all solution, is found for this dog.

Prin
September 1st, 2005, 10:51 PM
PLEASE don't advise anybody to feed raw meat AND kibble!! PLEASE!

Don't feed raw meat and kibble together!! Your dog will get E.coli or Salmonella etc because the kibble slows the digestion down. I just hate it when people get it---- I definitely don't want any doggies to get it!!

StaceyB
September 1st, 2005, 10:54 PM
You just did.
I would like to say again, dogs who are getting a balanced diet should not have supplements, especially puppies and young dogs still growing.

justncase
September 2nd, 2005, 09:30 AM
PLEASE don't advise anybody to feed raw meat AND kibble!! PLEASE!

Don't feed raw meat and kibble together!! Your dog will get E.coli or Salmonella etc because the kibble slows the digestion down. I just hate it when people get it---- I definitely don't want any doggies to get it!!


Do you have a reference source for that because I'm getting conflicting information from elsewhere?(Did I mention " kibble" specifically? I don't believe I did.)

Trinitie
September 2nd, 2005, 10:24 AM
justncase - the fine line I mentioned in the other post (sick pom) is getting thinner by the post. Keep up the condesending attitude towards those trying to clarify posts you are making and you'll indeed find you're not going to be very welcome here any longer.

justncase
September 2nd, 2005, 10:29 AM
What do you want me to say? I AM getting conflicting information elsewhere. Do you want me to discount the info I have in favour of ......?? I need a reference source if I'm going to discount the info I have and I don't think I'm remiss in requesting it.

Prin
September 2nd, 2005, 11:51 AM
Did I mention " kibble" specifically? I don't believe I did

Pretty much, yeah. Unless you are writing poetry and we all have to "decode" it, common knowledge is that "dog food" is kibble, especially if you are adding raw meat to it. You wouldn't have specified "add raw" if you were referring to a raw diet, would you have? :rolleyes:
I would say improve the diet to the best you can afford ,a really good high-quality dog food with meat not just corn and fillers and add lots of raw beef

Prin
September 2nd, 2005, 01:31 PM
Do you have a reference source for that because I'm getting conflicting information from elsewhere?(Did I mention " kibble" specifically? I don't believe I did.)


Here:
From this site:
http://www.rawnaturaldiet.com/faq
Kibble and raw food are digested differently, and should never be fed together, in the same meal. If you feed dry kibble at the same meal as the raw meat, you are increasing the amount of time the food is in the body, and increasing the possibility of illness from microbes.

From this site:
http://www.raw4dogs.com/KIBBLE-COMPARE.htm
If you just have to do kibble, here is a comparison of ingredients of two top brands. Just be advised to NOT combine kibble and raw in the same meal, as both have very different digestion times. Raw = 6 hours Kibble = 12 to 14 hours

From this site:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#kibble
Kibble and raw food are digested differently, and should NEVER be fed together, in the same meal. If you feed dry kibble at the same meal as the raw meat, you are increasing the amount of time the food is in the body, and increasing the possibility of illness from microbes. So, if you want to feed half & half, feed kibble one meal, raw the next.

From this site:
http://www.healthy-paws.ca/faqs.htm#2
It is not recommended to feed kibble and raw foods in the same meal. Kibble digests at a much slower rate than raw. If you send them down for processing at the same time, the raw food will be trapped with the kibble food and could cause problems with bacteria and digestion.

justncase
September 2nd, 2005, 03:32 PM
justncase - the fine line I mentioned in the other post (sick pom) is getting thinner by the post. Keep up the condesending attitude towards those trying to clarify posts you are making and you'll indeed find you're not going to be very welcome here any longer.


Pretty much, yeah. Unless you are writing poetry and we all have to "decode" it, common knowledge is that "dog food" is kibble, especially if you are adding raw meat to it. You wouldn't have specified "add raw" if you were referring to a raw diet, would you have? :rolleyes:


Prin:
I know that you are not trying to be condescending with me and only want clarification on this so , for that reason , I will try to clarify this further. " Dog food" can mean many things, it can mean kibble, but it can also mean canned, the 100 percent natural kind sold in chubs and also the kind that's frozen, also 100 natural meaning no preservatives, or by-products etc. When I said " get the best dog food you can afford and add lots of raw beef " I meant for the OP to buy the best he could afford. To assume what the OP could afford would have been pretentious so I left it up to the OP to check into it further, to ask at pet stores what they could offer and see whether it was in his budget or not. It would have been very very helpful if members here could have added some insight as to what they found was a really good dog food- commercial and othewise to help him in this quest. As for adding raw beef to the dog food, that would depend on what quality of dog food the OP could afford. Is raw beef bad to give a dog? Not according to my sources. If it is, then I would need some reference that can substantiate that. Does this dog have pica? I don't know. He fits all of the signs, pretty well a textbook case. I have been reprimanded for even suggesting it but isn't it better to suggest it as a possibility then not to suggest it at all? What if the dog actually has it and no one knew? Hopefully, the OP's dog doesn't have it, hopefully, all of this is very easily corrected for both the dog and the OP. As for adding supplements to the diet of a young dog, that is msot likely not necessary for a normal dog under normal curcumstances but if this dog has pica then it cannot be corrected without the supplements that were mentioned. No amount of nutrition is going to fix it without those supplements . So the question is, does the dog have pica or not? It has been suggested as a possibility. Now, it would seem that it's up to the OP to investigate further if he wants to know the answer to that question.

Trinitie
September 2nd, 2005, 04:08 PM
I think we should all shake hands and move on. With luck, the dog doesn't have pica, or behaviour problems that can't be corrected.

You're very knowledgable, and I repect that. We both didn't want to back down, but I will be the first to say "I'm sorry I got out of control". Let's put our respective knowledge together and move forward with the help of our little furry friends (and people friends too). What say you?

:pawprint:

Prin
September 2nd, 2005, 10:30 PM
Justncase, nothing is wrong with feeding raw meat. The problem arises when kibble is mixed with raw meat. The kibble slows down digestion, making the dog more susceptible to E coli, Salmonella and other bacteria that can be found in meat.

I think it all is about being clear. Not too many people actually know about feeding a raw diet and we certainly don't want them mixing kibble and raw! :)

StaceyB
September 3rd, 2005, 12:05 AM
I would say improve the diet to the best you can afford ,a really good high-quality dog food with meat not just corn and fillers .


I really don't want to get in the middle of all of this but I thought I would mention that seeing that the OP said that he already feeds the cheapest food(didn't say what kind) I would have assumed from your post and the OP's that they were referring to kibble.

LavenderRott
September 3rd, 2005, 08:38 AM
Well, I don't agree with diagnosing a dog that one can't see and evaluate online, so I will just give you my opinion.

Labradors chew. It is a fact of life that just can't be avoided. Bored Labradors chew even more. Every single lab owner that I have ever known has told me that their dog chewed anything he/she could get in their mouth until they were about 2 years old. Heck, I knew a lady many years ago who's lab pulled things off the wall to chew!

A crate, for those times when you can't be home or are home but must have your attention elsewhere is a must. And training. And more training. And more training. Don't just exercise the dog's body, you must exercise his mind too.

lezzpezz
September 3rd, 2005, 09:29 AM
And as many know, crating a dog also takes training. Can't just put the dog in and close the door and voila, the problem is solved. Just thought that the OP would need to be advised that crating a dog will require a gradual learning process, so the dog does not freak out. No need to add anxiety to the mix! There are also many good books out there on how to properly crate train a dog and likely some excellent tips available on this very site.....just thought this should be mentioned so that the OP didn't think that crating was a quick fix solution to a much heftier problem :o

Prin
September 3rd, 2005, 10:02 AM
Labradors chew. It is a fact of life that just can't be avoided. Bored Labradors chew even more. Every single lab owner that I have ever known has told me that their dog chewed anything he/she could get in their mouth until they were about 2 years old. Heck, I knew a lady many years ago who's lab pulled things off the wall to chew!
My old lab chewed till she was 11!!! Yes, labs chew. They chew like crazy. That's probably why there are so many 6 month-2 year old labs at the SPCA. They make cute puppies but become a handful very quickly. :rolleyes: You have to take the bad with the good. :)

marvandmisty
September 3rd, 2005, 10:11 AM
it is true that you should train this dog but also just try playing with it or taking it to the contry and let it run. play catch and all kinds of games let him have fun and wear him out. like they said he needs excersize. we had a fuul grown dog that we gave to our cousin that did not chew on anything, but now thatour cuz has him he chews up everything, and that is how we know he is not getting the attention he needs. like they said excersize and training will help. We are getting our dog back and i bet the chewing stops. it will probably take some time though there is no quick fix to this. but that is just my opinion

justncase
September 3rd, 2005, 07:52 PM
I think we should all shake hands and move on. With luck, the dog doesn't have pica, or behaviour problems that can't be corrected.

You're very knowledgable, and I repect that. We both didn't want to back down, but I will be the first to say "I'm sorry I got out of control". Let's put our respective knowledge together and move forward with the help of our little furry friends (and people friends too). What say you?

:pawprint:


I didn't see this as a contest of wills, however, it is regrettable that you did. All I try to do is provide information along with everyone else. Who's to say who is right? I don't know if anyone here can diagnose a pet sight-unseen, or would want to. All one can really do is to offer some ideas and possible direction. When all is said and done, it's up to each OP to take the next step.

keenya
September 6th, 2005, 09:59 PM
my puppy used to be very much like that... it took a lot of patience with her... there is this stuff you can get at any pet store I think Walmart even carries it... it is called Bitter Apple i think.. thats what it tastes like anyway.. there are other ones called Fooey and such.. but anyway... my puppy used to eat everything from rugs to furniture to the deck.. you name it she chewed.. all we did was sprayed some of this stuff on her tongue and brought her around to everything she chewed on and made her watch us spray the stuff... she has not touched any of it since...
if there is an open field or a not so busy beach near you... try taking your dog out there for a couple hours... we do that with our puppy when she starts bouncing off the walls again and she tires her self out so much from chasing the birds and sticks and balls that she sleeps the whole way home then for a couple hours after she gets home...
we used to buy her the really expensive toys... the ones that are "indestructible"... yeah well she destroyed them all.. one toy we found that she absolutely loves in a raw hide bone that we get from walmart for like $8... it is probably 14 inches long and about 3 inches in diametre and it is a solid bone... it takes her almost a week to completely destroy one of those... but it keeps her occupied... also the rubber balls you can get with the squeaky thing in them... she keeps herself occupied for hours with those... and she tires herself out... or if you side about 10 feet away from the top of a set of stairs and throw the ball down the stairs and have your puppy bring it back that tires them out too...

just some suggestions...

StaceyB
September 6th, 2005, 10:25 PM
or if you side about 10 feet away from the top of a set of stairs and throw the ball down the stairs and have your puppy bring it back that tires them out too...

I would not suggest having your dog run down stairs. It is not safe.

VIOLET0019
January 16th, 2006, 09:10 PM
I believe in you and say BRAVO and thank you for being so kind in rescuing this dog. FIRST I MUST ASK: Is the name of your dog Satandog? Please let me know, as I have missed what his name is? You have received soooooooo much advice. Please be careful. I know everyone means well, but not all of the suggestions are so easy to do! Putting your dog in a crate, for example - one cannot just put their dog in a crate without knowing about putting a rescued, abused dog in a crate - please be careful on all that you do. TAKE IT EASY, GO SLOW. I also rescued a dog (part Pomeranian and part Yorkshire Terrier-her name is Baby) and she had a terrible life being beaten, kept in a cage, never trained, never walked, slept and did her toilet in the cage, left in there for days as the owners went away out of town, needless to say, she has many issues. BUT, I LOVE HER! AND ALTHOUGH I RESCUED HER, I TRULY BELIEVE SHE RESCUED ME!! I believe in you - the most important thing with a dog that has been abused is that we MUST have PATIENCE, we must think on every action we take, every word we say, how we talk & our tone - LISTEN TO YOUR VOICE, of how he hears you. IMPORTANT TIP - PLEASE DO NOT SCREAM AND BE ANGRY AT YOUR DOG! If you feel angry, frustrated, etc.....take a deep breath, and speak low, speak soft, speak calm. Otherwise, any progress you make, if he loses the TRUST, then it will be like taking 10 steps back!! I have NEVER raised my voice to Baby, NEVER! All of those months, cleaning up diarrhea all over the house, several times a day.......all the times I had to stop, take a breath and work very hard, very patiently in FIRSTLY and most importantly, gaining her TRUST in me (which even today, every single day, she STILL is not 100% sure that I will not beat her!!!) But I understand, I love her, and I MUST find PATIENCE for her, even though it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard, when I am tired, when I am ill and need to FIND the patience, at any given moment, to take care of her needs - it is a 24/7 committment, when one rescues a dog, or any animal - BUT, how wonderful to be able to have all that it takes to take in an abused animal, to rescue an animal, and give them a loving, safe home, for the rest of their lives!!! They come to us, having "paid their dues" sort of speak, and those of us who have this special ability, like you, to be able to be strong, loving, patient and understanding, to be selfless ....... that is something to be proud of!!! I hope that you will continue to write in to this site, for help, to hear the experiences of others, the ideas others may give you, so that hopefully you will have some help in taking care of your dog. PLEASE - use POSITIVE ENCOURAGEMENT, when training your dog, i.e. each time he is learning, and does what you want, give him a crunchy (kibble food - carry some in your pocket at ALL TIMES, so that at any instant, when he listens to you, REMEMBER - always give him a treat, and ALWAYS SAY: GOOD BOY! GOOD BOY! and give him a pat, or scratch on the chest, or whatever else which you know that he likes!! I PROMISE, that if you have patience and are willing to go down this road, although it is a long road, and it may take a long time, I PROMISE, if you ALWAYS REMEMBER TO USE KIND ENCOURAGING WORDS TO YOUR DOG SEVERAL TIMES EVERY SINGLE DAY - you will see that your dog will begin to learn. IT IS ABOUT TRUST - your dog needs to trust you. He has been through horrible times, and you have come into his life and him into your life.......for a reason. I believe in fate, and you two were brought together.
ALSO, do not use many words when training or teaching your dog anything at all. ALWAYS BEGIN WITH HIS NAME (to get his attention) and then say what you want to say, for example: "SATANDOG!" GOOD BOY! or "SATANDOG!" COME! ................... From my personal experience, and from others who I have suggested this advice, I have always heard back that everyone says that this is good advice, and also REMEMBER: POSITIVE ENCOURAGEMENT AND A KIBBLE! TAKE CARE! YOU CAN DO IT!!

I bought this dog from a kill shelter and when i got him he was over a year old. now, this dog chews and i mean he chews wires, bottles, carpet, beds, walls, cats pretty much anything that can be chewed he chews. he has many many real bones (the ones that cost a lot) and the bones that can be easily chewed. i know for a fact he has had some training because hes one stupid dog but he knows the sit and lay down commands. not only does he chew he also cant sit still for more than 5 seconds and he only sleeps like an hour a night. im almost postive he was abused by his old owners because he gets startled very easily and he always has to be close to you.

now getting rid of him really isnt an option cause he would be put to sleep if he goes back to a kill shelter cause hes a really big dog and if someone were to test him if to see his temper he would fail cause he will snap at you if you try and take away whatever hes chewing. also this dog is just so darn helpless i mean he got caught in a phone wire not really caught but he though he did so he just stood there and whined till i got him loose. i just cant see myself giving him a death sentence i mean im sure he doesnt mean to be this way and hes a very good looking dog.


i know my grammar is bad but any info of maybe meds or something to help him would mean all the world to me

thanks[/QUOTE]
:)