August 3rd, 2005, 01:20 PM
I know you are frustrated Dragonfly but I too know how hard it is to run a web site - you should try operating one by commitee - it's even worse than this I bet. We meet weekly and debate everything.
Alas, I am not really free to leave and I think it's unfair of you to say so. I hope that was just your frustration speaking because I take it quite personally (it actually brought tears to my eyes because I thought we were a community. I guess you do not see it that way). That said, I have been up since 3 AM but as my dad would say in his sardonic way, the crying room is in the corner, lol I chose my work so if I have to get up early, it was by choice.
I did choose to visit this site. I have made freinds here and if I want to see how they are doing - how their pets are and if I want to help them, I need to visit, So there is no choice there anymore except finding other ways to communicate with my friends.
If we all disappeared, where would the advertisers go? I don't know if this is nonprofit or a for profit site and frankly, not sure that matters to me at this point. I don't care if the owners are out to make money. They do not seem to be and I respect them for starting the site and their love of animals is clear!
It's just bad form to tell your readers to disappear and while I suppose I am "free" (kind of a play on words there is it?) to go, but I have to establish contact with the friends I have made here first - the owners included!!
I hate having tp spend time discussing all this stuff- could we just have a little more respect for each other and really, to be honest, I think your comments are unkind and I find them upsetting. I always liked your posts and I do understand what it is like to be a moderator and people angry at you about something but I really don't think asking people to leave the site solves the problem. I do think there are positive ways to get around it and we can become the community we once were!
August 3rd, 2005, 01:39 PM
sorry, did I miss a post that directly said "CK, you are free to leave"? :o
August 3rd, 2005, 01:48 PM
We don't want anyone to leave.
We just want people to behave. Sometimes that seems like a lot to ask.
We have 9000+ members. Some of the members feel they should be able to say whatever they want.
We want them to say what they want in a polite manner. When they they cross the line and we close threads - the right to 'my opinion' argument surfaces. The censorship issue comes up.
It's all so circular.
The fact of the matter is that with thousands of members there will ALWAYS be some that disagree with any opinion in particular and that's cool....so long as they reply politely. That's how we learn.
Now if some members can't or won't be polite when they let their individual passions get the better of them, then that is THEIR problem.
We are just trying to find the middle ground with 9000 members. Trust me with the passionate people we have here - it's very hard.
As long as people with different opinions post politely and respect the rules no threads will be closed.
August 3rd, 2005, 02:49 PM
Please re-read the thread. The comment was not directed at anyone specific, but rather everyone. The rules of the board are set out, and the comment was that anyone who disagrees with the rules are welcome to leave. We want everyone to enjoy thier stay, but at the same time, the griping about rules and moderators has been a little much as of late. The comments and complaints by individuals who have felt bullied and jumped on far outweigh the very few who feel that that is not the case, this is why there has been a change in the way the board has been moderated as of late. While we acknowledge that we are going through a growing process, at the end of the day, as the saying goes, "you know where the door is". We are sad to see anyone leave, but the rules are there for a reason.
As has been said before, the moderators are also regular members of the board. They understand the issues, and even, on occasion, have been scolded by thier fellow mods. No one is above anyone else when it comes to the rules and respect of each other on this board.
If a moderator or admin has an issue with any individual, it will be dealt with discreetly and in private out of respect for that individual. We would ask for the same courtesy from all of you. The board is not the place the place to air dirty laundry with individual mods. Please address that moderator or Marko.
August 3rd, 2005, 04:35 PM
If you have an issue about a comment made by a mod or myself, or how we run the board, just PM us.
August 3rd, 2005, 04:41 PM
It was directed at everyone and everyone includes me. That is how I took it. As I stated previously, I have the utmost respect for the work moderators do (I have done enuf of it in my day and still do come for a medical bulletin board I run for a journal - tho we have no where the probs as this site does but no where as many members, it's a site requiring registration and a subscription so while we have some energetic debates occasionally, I have not experienced some of the acrimony that seems to sometimes come out here)
That said, I see no reason to close down a thread beacuse a moderator is upset with others. I like Dragonfly - I just disagree with closing a thread to solve a problem. I think that creates more of a problem and gives the perception at least of censorship. And that is so NOT the internet!!
And telling people we are free to leave - even if it is a figure of speech - was very upsetting to me. I don't care if mods are snickering and think I am just whining but I DO think before I write. But, that comment brought tears to my eyes (and I see some horrible things that often move me to tears but this was just almost unkind and that to me hit me right in my heart - I just thought how could someone I always had respect for say such a thing.) I am guessing that may not have been the intention but I take things very seriously and it hurt!!
I have had patients and parents who have been nasty to me (They might haver been in distress or there are sadly some people who just do think oif they are mean and intimidating, one will take notice and offer respect but the opposite works with me.) I never once asked those people to leave my office. I tried to find out what the problem was and find a solution. Similarly in politics, I have been in sitations where people have been less than great to deal with. I did not have to act like them. I always try to be myself and always be polite.
So that comment just seemed so out of place and I took it badly. If I am free to leave, maybe I just will, sigh! I do behave - or try to anyway. I do NOT attack people, I respect people, I try to post comments I think are helpful or news items that might interest other pet lovers. I may debate or be a little too long winded on occasion (I admit :) ) but this is a group that seems to enjoy debate for the most part and good, polite and decent debate is a good thing.
Marko, I never crossed the line on that thread. I am a major proponent of free speech and you know I would never knowingly even say anything to even hurt the web site. I even vet (np pun intended) some of comments. So legally. So I am at a loss to understand why a thread would be closed and why a moderator - someone who we look to lead - would ask everyone (including) me to leave if I am unhappy.
I don't want to leave but neither do I want to have to be frustrated every time I go to post an opinion. I self edit much of what I write (even tho my typos are legendary and I type at 40 mistakes a minutes ;) ). But I like this place. I am just sad it has come to actually asking people to leave. That is how that read to me at the time I saw it and rereading it, it still upsets me. (sighhhhhh!!)
August 3rd, 2005, 04:59 PM
We just can't please everybody all the time and if you're continually displeased then there is no point in staying, is there?
August 3rd, 2005, 05:15 PM
No, but the point is I like the people here. If you want me gone, I'll go. Gheez (in tears again!!), what is it with you guys? I thought you guys were all nice ppl? What happened? What is going on here? Am I such a horrible person that you would say this to me when I am not feeling well?
I am just surprised. I truly expected we cared about each other here. I have never said anything nasty to you White Wolf! Ever!!! And I honestly feel your comment just now was very uncalled for. It's demeaning and snarky.
Do you not understand what I am attempting top say - as politely as possible? And I rarely PM ppl, as you know - but on occasion I have PMed Marko and he is always helpful. I just don't understand the new 'tude with those of us who for soem reason are not allowed to post. I know personally I have never posted anything horrible. I do not want special attention - I want a respectful, egalitarian and caring community. I think Marko shows this and really, moderators should demonstrate this too. It is easy to be polite!
August 3rd, 2005, 10:58 PM
The message I posted was what Dragonfly meant. We don't want people to leave, but at the same time, there are a select few who are very upset about the new rules. Whatever we do, we will upset somebody. We just can't keep bending and changing rules to accomodate everybody. That is what was happening before and this forum became a horrible place to visit. So sure, a select few might find it too much, but if too much allows new members to come and post and get help without getting bashed, that we will have done something in a positive direction.
For a while it was going much better, but this past week has been pretty difficult for the mods, and we just wish you would understand the position we're in. We ARE you. Remember way back when, Marko told you all that we were selected from a pool of regular members. We still deal with this forum as members, usually far more as "regulars" than as mods. We are under the same restrictions as everybody else. With so many mods around, even other mods have to be careful.
The goal here is to get people to express their opinions in such a way that it doesn't hurt, judge or offend others right away. There are ways of doing this, and it's all about your intentions when you set out to post. If you intend to offend, we WILL read that in your post. If everybody expressed themselves as best they could and took a breather before posting on threads they find offensive, this place would be a lot cooler.
Instead of posting in a thread you find offensive, ask the mods to close it right away. Send a pm or an email to one or all of us saying the thread is too offensive or heated for you. Don't jump in to the fire as well. The last thing we want is repetitive negativity to show though on this board.
Cyberkitten, yes you have been a great poster here at pets.ca. We value your input and your opinion. We just have to look out for the greater common good here, and if that means you didn't get to post on a controversial thread, than that is just the way it has to be, because we can no longer bend and break rules because we like people. ;) We close threads when they become too confrontational. We don't set out to close threads just because we know certain people have not yet weighed in. In fact, if I see that someone is typing a response to a thread I am bound to close, I let whomever it is finish their post and then I close it. But we can't just leave hot threads open indefinitely. It's not particularly difficult to see a thread close coming either. If there is one hot thread on the board, I think everybody sees the close coming.
There are hundreds of members here every day and hundreds of new posts every day. Please understand that we just try our best to keep it all civil. :)
August 3rd, 2005, 11:05 PM
Maybe feelings are being hurt here too often and the mods did let everyone know that they would be watching what happens and what is being said.
In my honest opinion I think the change is a good thing, there are still people who come here for advice and it is refreshing to see that now that people have their opinions in check there is a lot more useful information being given to these people instead of the regular flame throwing that has gone on in the past.
I didn`t read the thread about the wolves, but from what I have read in other threads it got nasty, like it usually did here before the changes and was closed to stop all of that.
Sometimes there are threads that are closed before I get to read them and respond but I don`t take it personally, I would not want to have to moderate here and after the poll that started all the changes was done, I was happy to see more moderators and more "policing" of threads, it was something that a LOT of members obviously welcomed. I don`t think closing threads is personal CK, if you didn`t get a chance to post because you were busy,then just take it for what it is, and move on. It isn`t personal.
More people had a problem with rude comments and the general attitude here than those who are getting upset because threads are being closed. It has been refreshing to see the changes here and I think the mods have put it best when they have said that if you don`t like it here now you are free to go......... all of us are......... except for those who are moderating and the administrators of this site.
If I am out of line and say something to hurt someone , the best I can do is apologize to them for it, it doesn`t matter if that was what I meant when I posted or not, the fact is that someone found it rude or hurtful and it is up to me to be big enough to apologize, and that`s that. Defending what I said just makes me more rude and hurtful.
As I put in the title, this is JMO...........
August 3rd, 2005, 11:46 PM
Well said White Wolf.
August 4th, 2005, 01:07 AM
We ARE you. Remember way back when, Marko told you all that we were selected from a pool of regular members. We still deal with this forum as members, usually far more as "regulars" than as mods. We are under the same restrictions as everybody else. With so many mods around, even other mods have to be careful.
Boy am I glad I was never asked to be a moderator, I'd never be able to express my own opinion and frankly....I have loaaaads of them! :p
August 4th, 2005, 01:11 AM
I know.... :p :p :cool:
August 4th, 2005, 06:28 AM
and here we are.
Members and mods have spoken. Not all members and not all mods, but I think the points have been well made. There is no reason to again go around and around in circles.
As per our rules - This very thread should have been a PM to an Admin or Mod. It will now be closed
We decided to leave it open for a while out of respect for, and due to the tension felt by several veteran members. They have been, and continue to be (and I hope will remain long into the future) excellent contributors.
That said, please PM either a mod or an admin or email firstname.lastname@example.org if you have a problem with a mod, a comment made by a mod, or how we run the board.