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We are just plain nasty

August 2nd, 2005, 02:18 PM
I can't believe we can be so nasty to people that it causes them not to enjoy their time here and end up leaving for good. In my opinion this site is to pass on our views, teach a little, learn a little and overall have a good time. There will be times that we may disagree, even strongly with someones views/ choices or opinions or someone will disagree with ours. We are all passionate about our pets and pets in general.
We can disagree/ debate in a way that doesn't attack them. Calling someone names or putting them down is not the way to go about it.

:( It is very sad to see that Sheba will no longer be with us because of the attacks. I would like to offer her an appology and if she dares to come back I think she would have a lot to offer us. :fingerscr We may not agree that having wolves would be our choice for whatever reason we have but none of us could say or would say they are not happy with them. They look to be well adjusted, social, happy animals. :pawprint: :pawprint:

So again, Sheba I am very sorry you had a bad experience here and if I said anything that offended you, I am sorry. :sorry:

People get fired up very quickly over certain topics and don't think before we print.

I think we should be careful not to send any others away that we can all clearly learn from.

:thumbs up :grouphug:

August 2nd, 2005, 02:26 PM
Yes, I saw too that she got attacked. It's too bad because even though a lot of people disagree with her having wolves, it would have been interesting to learn a bit about them. Criticizing her won't make her get rid of the wolves, and they're probably too domesticated to survive on their own anyway.

It's summer, people! Let's all chill out by the pool! :cool: Anybody see the sunscreen anywhere?

August 2nd, 2005, 02:29 PM
I also agree,she came here so happy and got shot down quickly...Sheba i hope you also come back.

August 2nd, 2005, 02:51 PM
I don't agree with or think she was attacked at all.

Should people support her in what she is doing and has done if we feel it is wrong? No!

August 2nd, 2005, 03:32 PM
Your right Luba you should let her know how you feel. BUt at the same time one, two , three, four.... people all telling her how wrong she is. It is overwhelming for anyone. And there is giving your opinion then there is judging someone. I am no way saying she is right. Its more the approach and execution that has people running for the door. We all feel very strongly and who is to say what are true reasons for owning them are. For her for them. I don't know.

We want people to stay and learn. And yes we most definately could have learned from her. I am sure there are more things she does know about these wolves then any of us. Maybe the discussion could have kept going but it turned pretty accusatory. Maybe somewhere down the line we could have convinced her it wasn't best to own wild animals but i am sure now they are more domesticated and would not have been best for them to be released. Sometimes when someone is already in a situation. Cat pegnant, dog pregnant, unspayed or sick cat. Its not in theirs or their animals best interest to aleinate them and make them feel bad.

But again stating your opinion is always important but doing so in a more tactful manner is more beneficial.

August 2nd, 2005, 03:36 PM
I honestly don't believe there is anything helpful I could learn from anyone who keeps wolves as pets.

If you are involved in something controvertial no matter what it may be, one must realize that there will be others with differing opinions.

I don't believe we would have been able to convince her to change this was /is her lifestyle if you see what I mean.

August 2nd, 2005, 03:50 PM
The thread was closed because people were attacking the OP, and because it was beginning to turn into a slug-fest. While it is certainly acceptable to disagree, and even encouraged for healthy debate, there were individuals who were attacking and even making assumptions before the OP was able to give the information. This is exactly the thing that we are trying to get away from, and that is why the thread was closed. It is unfortunate that we may have lost another new member to the over-zealousness of a few.

August 2nd, 2005, 03:52 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on a subject but discussion should be kept civil, non accusatory and to the best of one's abilities cordial. The world is made up of all different types of people, lifestyles and beliefs... it would be such a boring place if everyone were the same and agreed on everything. There is an old saying I am sure most are familiar with "Judge no man until you have walked a mile in their shoes". It would be beneficial to keep that in mind at all times. :)

August 2nd, 2005, 03:55 PM
However judging puppy mills and backyard breeders is okay though right?

What is wrong to one isn't wrong to another but we are all entitled to say such advoate for / against what we believe in.

August 2nd, 2005, 03:56 PM
I don't agree with keeping wolves as pets and I don't think buying them from a home with 4th and 5th generation on site is something I would encourage.

I also would have liked to have learned more about wolves, but on the other hand, I think it would be better to learn about a wild animal in it's own environment, or from something like National Geographic when they are in the wild, being just wolves as opposed to lets say, someone buying a panda and having it as a pet, and telling me and others how great it is.

I didn't feel she was attacked personally, but yes, her belief in having wolves was attack, and I feel bad for that. Then, her last post, which I fully understand was made on the defensive, was a full blown attack on many members. Some were called ignorant, stupid, uncaring pet owners, told to stay out of bars, etc. Now that was IMO nasty.

Are we supposed to act like we agree and encourage a funadamental belief that we hold dear, just to agree and be nice, or are we supposed to state what we believe, offer to learn , and stand by what we believe morally right?

I also wish she would come back, to educate us on wolves in the wild, where they really belong. I'm sure she's well educated about wolves, and would come to educate us on the animal rather than want us to commend what she is doing. That's the tricky part.

heeler's rock!
August 2nd, 2005, 04:14 PM
Wow. After reading that thread about Sheba and her wolves, I remembered why I don't post here much anymore. So much has been going on with me and my pets lately, that it would have been nice to post here and get some help and maybe understanding dealing with it, but I don't trust this site. I'm scared that I'll post what's happening, and be judged by those who do not understand the circumstances.

Sheba, I do not blame you for not wanting to stay here, or even come back for that matter. I'm very sorry you were treated so harshly. Good luck to you and your wolves in the future.

August 2nd, 2005, 04:19 PM
Sheba wasn't scared off she is on line right now.

August 2nd, 2005, 04:37 PM
Excuse me, were all nasty are we, well speak for yourself thanks :eek:

were a really nice bunch of ppl who try hard daily to be good and kind, continuously raising the issue of nastiness to me is becoming a bit of bullying really, its like certain parties are trying to be bullies to get their way, to create here exactly what they want... well sorry but here i find we reflect the norms of society, yes we get upset (and i for one dont agree with keeping native animals in captivity full stop and that upsets me) but thats part of society and communication in general. everyone is differnet with differnt beliefs and practice, and in the real world if someone does something i think is wrong i say something, thats how we educate and change things...

im truly sick of ppl trying to make us out to be a bunch of mongrels and nasty old freaks, hey were not and its rare anything happens around here, so get of the high horses ppl and realise were all just humans...

stop taring us all with the same brush for gods sake. its getting boring with all this accusations and rubbish.....

also there was no attacks in that thread, i ahve read the eitire thing and see nothing nasty, an attack is when i use nasty names and say your evil or such, in that thread nothing but questions were asked and opinions of the situaiton given, that is not attacking someone, its enquiry...

i love animals, and i dont care where i am or who a person is, if i dont think they are treating an animal properly i will inquire as to what they are doing and i will let them know it is wrong if i deem it so, that is not attacking or hating or being nasty, that to me is caring for animals and being the true guardian of animals and their rights that humans should be...

as a human it is my job to ensure animals are treated fairly and protected, if a person disagrees with that well thats not a problem, they just disagree, as i do..... just because they are nice ppl or come here does not mean that my morals and regard of animals is diminished.....

August 2nd, 2005, 04:55 PM
im truly sick of ppl trying to make us out to be a bunch of mongrels and nasty old freaks,

Well said Mel!

It seems we all need to sit cross legged hands folded on our laps and speak only when spoken to and then agree with everything for fear that someone's feelings will get hurt. Give me a break!! How many times are we going to go over this on this site. The last bout of it was ridiculous and many were banned because of it, others given warnings.

There is nothing wrong with debating, referencing, speaking out and speaking up for things you believe in period.

Animals can't stick up for themselves, someone has to and I intend to be included in that not bullied to think I can't speak my mind.

August 2nd, 2005, 04:56 PM
its like certain parties are trying to be bullies to get their way, to create here exactly what they want

Sounds like you might be doing the same thing.

while I usually agree with the majority on here I do feel that we attack people too much. I know there were times I'v felt ganged up on. Everyone has a right to their oppinion, if you want people to respect your oppinion and be nice to you you have to respect theirs and be nice to them. I was always told "treat others how you would want to be treated, wheather they deserve it or not."

August 2nd, 2005, 05:00 PM
We are all free to disagree but due to the anonymity of the Internet many people write stuff that they would NEVER say to another person face to face, even though they seriously disagree with them.

Face to face contact is almost always tempered with diplomacy.

Mods have no stake in saying whether a poster has been attacked or not - they call it like they see it and in this case 2 mods called it.


August 2nd, 2005, 05:02 PM
no im certainly not being a bully, thats the last thing i would ever do to anyone other than my husband :evil: :D

im just feeling like these days its the members of this site that are under 'attack' really, im totally over all the fighting and stuff, why cant we all jsut agree to disagree..... im jsut not a sensitive person realyl nd i dont see the attacks, si said before i get really concerned when i think ppl might not be treating animals right, thats all and maybe our reactions are interpreted wrong due to a lack of communication methods with the internet and the level of our concern....

so i think we all need to realise its passion and worry that spark most of this stuff, it is NOT nastyness or that we are cruel ppl and jsut love having a go at anyone we can get our hands on, now comon were not like that and that we can all admit to, were not a bunch of baddies or arrogant know it alls, we just try.

dog abusers do exist all overthe place, and of course we will run into them occassionally, and there are some total nuts out there, so its natural for us to show a high level of concern in such an instance...

please, were not the blue meanines or anything, jsut nice ppl living life the best we can.

August 2nd, 2005, 05:11 PM
I really thought we had dealt with this a couple of weeks ago.

I HATE to post, because it is my job to moderate, but well, I will say what I have to say and leave it at that.

NO, I do not think that people should have wolves as pets. I believe that in most places it is illegal unless you have some type of permit.

Having said that, the fact of the matter is, more people are made aware of the plight of many different endangered species by actually seeing them and being educated by an individual who knows about that species. Children find it much easier to associate that wolves are being driven into instinction if they actually see a real wolf.

The truth is that the wolves habitat is disappearing thanks to man's greed. While I may not agree with keeping a pack of wolves in someone's living room, I promise you that cattle ranchers in Montana will run for their rifles if they know you are releasing wolves near their ranches.

Yes, some of the posts were not nice at all. A couple of them were bordering on rather rude. As Thumper said in Bambi "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all".

Rick C
August 2nd, 2005, 05:28 PM
As Thumper said in Bambi "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all".

Or . . . . as Dan Akroyd said at the funeral of John Belushi, "If you can't handle MiG's, don't fly in MiG Alley."

Rick C

August 2nd, 2005, 05:39 PM
I read the thread about Sheba and her wolves. I can see where this is a very, very touchy subject with some people. In Wyoming, a few years ago the government had the bright idea to reintroduce wolves to Yellowstone park. Well, the wolves have done what nature intended them to do: survive and procreate. Now, the government has once again stated their intention to let the wolves be hunted as predators because their numbers have increased dramatically and they are not staying within the boundaries of the park. So, we as humans have actually condemned all these animals to death not once, but twice. :mad: I think that Sheba tried to tell everyone that she did not take these animals out of the wild, she bought (at least one) from a breeder. She is merely trying to show people that wolves are not the sinister creature that most people think they are. Whether I agree with keeping wolves or not, I believe that she had good intentions. And I for one would be really curious about some of the differences. I do know that in Wyoming, it is illegal to own a dog that is more than 1/2 wolf. I think that wolves are probably on the way to becoming an endangered species (once again) and if the only chance they have to survive human intervention is for people to breed them like the place in Nevada, then so be it. Why is it any different than buying a purebred Golden or Newf? We as humans want everything both ways, we want to be able to enjoy animals in the wild, and think they should be left there - but we don't allow any land to remain wild - we want it all to be for us and malls, and parking lots and condos. Where exactly is the 'wild' that all these animals are supposed to live in?? :(

Also, I owned a coyote - no one jumped on me for having a wild animal as a pet and I really don't see the difference - although I do admit that mine was my pet, my baby, my love - best dog I ever had. :sad:

August 2nd, 2005, 05:50 PM
I honestly wanted to have a genuine conversation with her about why she had wolves and to get her take on recent research about tehir possible eco demise. I had done some research on the subject and alas, when I went to share it with her and others, the discussion had been closed.

Now, I could see where she may have felt somewhat overwhelmed - she likely did not anticipate some of the comments but I am sure she must get p similar questions in her travels. So I was saddened to see the thread removed. It is a topical issue - and there is obvious interest.

I also think we or those who own the site need to have clear rules or protocol for discussion. I do not have the kond of time to invest in a place that will shut me down simply for wanting to share ideas. That is not open discussion.

I agree with Mel! We are not bad people nor are we nasty. We may have strong opinions but hey, we are strongly committed to our beliefs. I did not agree with the tenor of some of the comments directed at her - but I do bleieve in open debate. I wish she would have stayed and given us more information - and I think the moderator made a hasty decision that did not take into account that there are good people here who cannot spend their time here 24/7 and are diplomatic, caring and cautious about what we say to people - on and offline.

I am a little disturbed with the censorship to be honest - admittedly for the first time I wonder if my time here is worthwhile. I like the people, i like helping people and I enjoy learning but the atmosphere must be civil but also one must be allowed to say what one planned. It is sort of saying "We do not trust your ability to make acceptable comments so the thread is now closed. And by the way if you cannot be here 24/7, you don't count." To be fair, that is a little harsh but it is how I felt when I saw the Closed graphic. I thought, "Ok, that's it, I am NOT spending any more time researching for a discussion here. I honestly don;t have that kind of time!"

Now, most of the time I do not research issues but the whole issue of wolves was curious and I looked forward to hearing what she had to say. Surely, in her world, she must get questions often and I did not want to judge - I wanted to know how it happened, what it was like -- all that sort of thing. I was not rude.

I don't know, sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! I am little frustrated and you know what they say - if your volunteer time becomes stressful or wastes your time, it is time to move on. Perhaps I can better learn by blogging about Siamese and encouraging comments or engaging in something like that. I don't know. I just like learning about a variety of animals tho.

Anyway - that's my rant for thwe day, lol

August 2nd, 2005, 09:08 PM
I scanned over the thread early this morning but have yet to read it of late.

I do not agree with the so called sensoring going on here lately but I was already feeling sensored long before the defacation hit the ventilation.

I have cut many of puppy tails, done many artificial insemenations on bitches in heat..(registered but certainly not show dogs!) Whelped many litters, c-sections, litter exams for health certificates. Do I dare mention the many declaws too? Years ago there was ear trims...most vets are getting away from that here too. There are many people in my area with licenses to have wolves. I have a big scar on my forearm from Jombie, an intact Timber that decided to maul me...could've been worse.

Posting here scares me more sometimes than Jombie ever did.

I geuss I'll shut up now and go read....

August 2nd, 2005, 10:17 PM
I actually felt attacked when I first came on this site. I do realise now that it was only out of concern for the dog I gave away. I also realise that re homing a dog or taking it to the shelter isnt always the best answer. My former dog did find a home luckily. I know how many dogs are in need of homes now and better understand the role of rescue workers like Lucky R. that are trying to find homes for animals. This dog we have now will be with us until the end. I am glad he is an adult to and not a puppy, we were actually offered a pup the same day we brought Joey home we politely declined and sent her a picture of our new 6 year English Cocker attitude and all!
I decided to stay and keep on posting and if i still felt unwelcomed I would leave but I stuck it out and now it is one of my favorite forums.

August 2nd, 2005, 10:37 PM
Cyberkitten, i agree with you. I think the censorship is a bit out of hand. BUT it is not my board so what i think doesn't really matter :D and rightly so. I just don't understand why threads that are likely to rile people up are closed so quickly while threads like this-- a topic that has been debated and brought up repeatedly-- is left open, while it is understandably irritating people that are sick of being misinterpreted as "nasty", "mean" or whatever other word is being used. I don't post here much anymore because it feels useless...i end up rewriting my posts a dozen times--even posts about non-controversial things-- to make sure i am sugar coating as well as possible and that there is no remote chance of my offending anyone, at which point i realize my post has become pointless and delete the whole thing. Oh, and i didn't even read the wolf thread, so i have no idea about that case in particular...this is just a general rant that seemed to fit here :)

August 2nd, 2005, 11:00 PM
I understand that we should all be able to speak our minds, but how many people have to say wolves shouldn't be in captivity? There must have been a gang of at least 5 who repeated it over and over. Where did you want the thread to go from there? If she wrote two huge paragraphs defending herself, it wasn't because people were asking nicely.

Why can't ONE person ask and the rest wait for the answer? Instead of having each person come in and say "I agree with the above, [attack, attack]" such that the OP comes back totally overwhelmed and beaten down. I don't think that is fair at all.

We all know our way around the forums, but the newbies don't. It takes at least a few posts to get into the groove of things here, and a lot of people don't even give them a chance! My first post here, I got beaten down to hell! It actually almost made me cry. But then I thought, well, there must be something better around here than this select few.

And what I don't get, still, is what makes them wolves? I've looked at the pics over and over, and they look like plain ol' huskies to me... I know a ton of people in Qc who refer to huskies as wolves, just for status. She says they're not, but still, they are short like huskies, etc. Anyway, my point is, why get offended by a person in cyberspace who has barely said a word? She basically said "Hi" and that was it, she got jumped on. She didn't say "Hi I have wolves. I want everybody to have one."

White Wolf
August 2nd, 2005, 11:58 PM
We as mods cannot leave volatile threads open just so everybody can get their word in, at the expense of the OP, in this case. If the thread gets hostile, we'll do our best to close it before it goes downhill and gets terribly nasty. If there is a pattern within the thread, and the thread does not seem to be headed anywhere pleasant nor productive, we'll close it.

There are ways of asking a question that are not confrontational, and other ways that only intend to provoke a reaction. Stating your opinion is one thing, but being overly repetitive and accusatory is another. If you state an opinion, we'll read it. There is no need to repeat it over and over within the same thread, other than for the sake of confrontation.

In the end, it seems, all of the mods were in agreement on this one.

August 3rd, 2005, 12:33 AM
While I sometimes get a little irked when a thread is locked, I realize once the moment has passed, that 1)(usually) the thread should have been closed (I mean look at how closing Kevin Fusco's thread turned out to benefit all involved!!) and 2)the mods do a hell of a lot better job than I could EVER do (this board would be a mess if it was my judgement being put to the test each day) and they just plain old can't please everyone!
I say good for you mods for keeping your heads on straight despite us!!! :thumbs up

August 3rd, 2005, 12:48 AM
I should be sleeping but the hospital woker me up for a med order - to be fair, they know I am a night person. :D

Re: We all know our way around the forums, but the newbies don't.

Agree Prin BUT there is an old cardinal rule in the world of BBS's and boards and the internet (even back when some of us used Archie and Gopher - in and internet yrs, that is ancient history!). One ALWAYS LURKS before posting. So a newbie needs to get to know the tenor of a site before posting. I actually took a course for fun at the univ level on internet programming and we were required to 1st learn proper netiquette and proper netiquette means that one soes not jump into a conversation. Just as in real life, you would not burst into a conversation among a group of people, you do not do it online. You lurk ( to discover what the topic is and once familiar with it, the group and the tenor of the group, you post your comments. It is just being polite.

Sometimes I think I am still that little girl my mother insisted always be polite - in spite of a desire to be ovccasionally rebellious, I tend to follow rules, lol I guess I expect others to do the same and for some reason am always a bit disapointed when they don't. But I digress.

So, given that her post about the wolves was not an emergency of some kind, she had major time to figure out the tenor and attitude of this Board prior to making her comments. We are an opinionated group when it comes to the rights of animals and since we are also quite outyspoken, one should not at all be surprised to read the responses she encountered.

As for the decision to terminate the discussion, I was quite upset bordering on furious. NOT at anyone but just enough to ask myself why on earth????? I do concur the "me too" thing can be a bit much and we do not need to do that so much but there were some genuine questions. I had read a link on earlier some interesting research on wolves and from that took time I honestly did not have to do some more reading on the subject so I could discuss this topic with her and ask her what she thought about some of it, what her thoughts were on wolf survival in domestic situations versus in the wild - that sort of thing. It was the perfect opportunity. Except when I went to post, the thread was closed. I seriously wanted to cry!! Or hit my laptop - and I do not get angry all that easily.

I realy do believe in free speech and as the grand daughter of a deceased former Justice on one of our country's highest courts, a man who fought -legally and politically - for free speech - I was aghast!! I saw no laws broken and I felt personally excluded which is also something that has increased as well. I know the site is owned privately but it does have advertisers and conseumers (us) who are influenced by these advertisers. And this is a bulletin board, not kindergarten. One needs order but it is overkill to exclude the opinions of those of us who may not be here at the right time. That is just so wrong - and it is not the first time it has happened to me.

I suppose I also thought we all shuold have had an opportunity to equally express our opinions. Every hit generated by my visits helps this site in some small way - and I do try to be polite when I post. Is it too much to ask to be permitted to speak (or type)? And in the new information age in web site based in a free and democratic country with excellent free speech laws, why do I feel like I have to plead my caser?

I guess the fact that is probably the third time this has happened to me adds to my concern. And I have asked myself am I someone who is negative and disrespectful and I do not think I am. I think moderators need to be a little more thoughtful and understanding - put themselves in my (our) shoes (or fingers) and ask how they would feel? I know what it is like to be a moserator and how to be diplomatic and I think for the most part, the moderation here is not too obtrusive. But of late, threads get closed before I ever get to say anything and that makes the entire reason for the Bulletin Noard querstionable.

I would humbly suggest that if this is the way the Board is gouing to operate, we need to know so we can make proper choices. I am not unhappy with the Board per se - and I know a private business is not necessarily democratic but this is the new frontier of the ijnternet and these actions to close debate fly in the face of what the internet means to those of us who see it as an alternative to censored discussion.

I have even consulted lawyers before posting info - yet I am not allowed to post? I am careful, cautious and diplomatic and I try to speak online in the same way I do offline. I know I took this personally but I think I represent several ppl who aare not here 24/7 and resent having my right to free speech curtailed, (maybe especially researched and time consuming speech especially, sigh!!).

Anyway - this issue is important to me. Inclusion is VERY important to me and right now, I feel very excluded!!

August 3rd, 2005, 05:56 AM
It seems we all need to sit cross legged hands folded on our laps and speak only when spoken to and then agree with everything for fear that someone's feelings will get hurt. Give me a break!! How many times are we going to go over this on this site. The last bout of it was ridiculous and many were banned because of it, others given warnings.

Well said. I've pretty much stopped coming to this site BECAUSE of all the moderation. All of the threads that I've had something to say about, I thought to myself, "Geez, if I don't say this exactly the right way, I'm going to be banned, because someone will feel "attacked"' by my opinions." I think it should be clear to people coming to messageboards that everyone has an opinion, and that all opinions are not the same as yours.

toby's tracy
August 3rd, 2005, 05:56 AM
I honestly don't believe there is anything helpful I could learn from anyone who keeps wolves as pets.

There are many threads that I choose not to read because they are of no interest to me or because I do not find them helpful. There was a thread I read recently that I found very distasteful. When I saw it had been locked I PMd the moderator who locked it to thank her (or him :)).

The moderator's are doing a great job of keeping track of inappropriate threads. I say we let them do their job when dealing with questionable threads.

August 3rd, 2005, 07:43 AM
Running a vBulletin board is not cheap and yet no one here pays to belong. If you don't like the owner's rules, you are free to leave.

I hate to be blunt, but after the last mess we had, with me sitting here moderating ALL day for several days, I am really tired of everyone whining about censorship and unfairness.

If you don't think that the thread in question was rude and an attack against the OP, maybe you should go back and read it again. I am sure, judging from the last post by the OP, that she felt it was and responded accordingly.