Cropped or not

I assume that the amount of dogs getting their ears has dropped, and I know that many vets are no longer doing them. Also the breed standard has changed for many breeds allowing them to compete uncropped. I am curious, would you crop or leave natural. When I got my dane only one of the eight pups had the ears done. I didn't want the ears done but as I was checking out breeders I came across several that wouldn't sell their pups w/o ears done. I know why many of them want their puppies ears done, I have seen some pretty funky looking ears all twisted over their head. All the ones I have met were still wonderful. I have also seen some pretty awful hack jobs which make you ask, why would you do that to a dog?

So my question is Crop or not?

What kind of dog is it? I didn't vote because I don't know what kind of dog it is and really it depends on your oppinion. If a breeder won't sell the dog if you won't have the ears done and you don't want them done definatly look for another breeder. I personally like dobies ears cropped, but I like boxer and pitts ears natural. A lot of people don't like it and think it's cruel, I don't believe it is but I do respect their oppinions. I had dobies when I was young and having their ears cropped never seemed to bother them, even right after we brought them home from the vet.

If you do decide to crop it is very important to find a very good vet. We went to a vet 2 and a half hours away who charged much more then our regular vet to have our dogs ears done, but it was worth it because he specialized in that particular sugery. If you end up looking for a vet make sure you ask lots of questions and ask for references from other vets and patients. Hopefully there will be other people who had their dogs done by that vet that will allow you to see their dog and talk to you about it. Also make sure the vet is willing to completly explain the surgery and give you a paper on how to care for your dog post op as well as explain what the paper says to you theirself.

Whatever you decide I'm sure your dog will be beautiful.

Cropping any dog.
I have met many new dane parents with pups that hadn't had ears done but were actually considering it because everyone thought their young puppy was a lab. After explaining that they cut off half the ear when cropping and the fact that they haven't developed the slope on their forehead yet that defines the face as that of a dane and that if the ears were going to be done they should have been when puppy was 5 wks. None of them had the ears done and after a couple of months their pups started to look like a beautiful little dane.

I also met this girl that had a Rottie x and wanted to get his tail docked at 6 months so that he would resemble a rottie. She even had spoke to a vet who was actually going to do the surgery. We all know that docking is to be done only days after birth. This decision was strictly for cosmetic reasons and not for any other reason. I know in rare cases tails are docked later on due to continuous breaks. I can't believe she wanted to do this and worse that there was a vet willing to do it.

i consider ear cropping incredibly cruel and in my state of australia it is illeagle to do as is the tail....

please dont do it, its totally not necessary for any physical reason these days and is now purely aesthetic..

NEVER CROP EARS!! That's what I say (or yell). My dobie had his done at least 3 times before we got him at 3 years old, and they never stayed up. They ended up all scarred and crunchy and they were so small.

Skin stretches. It just does. That is what it is supposed to do. So you crop and then the dog spends a month healing, only to have them fall down eventually. I have never seen an elderly dobie with its ears still up. Waste of time, waste of money, and unnecessary pain.

You could say, "The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind..." and if they're cropped, they just won't. :D (I'm sleepy)

There is beauty in natural things. Why do we always have to go and mess it up?

And if having a scary dog is somehow necessary, I say the ears don't matter. You can have a really scary looking dog without the ears up.

Floppy ears are always better.


See? Floppy ears AND scary. No need for surgery. (sorry if you don't want pics in your thread)

That made me giggle. I remember when Montana was a young pup we used to say he could fly with those things. He has finally grown into them.

I voted no to cropping. I feel that the standards should all be changed to only consider the natural form of the animal i.e. if a dog naturally has pricked ears, then the standard should be for pricked ears, if floppy, then floppy, etc.

I much prefer Dane's "au naturel". It adds to their personality. I'm always happy when I pick one up and the ears have been left.

The interest in cropping has dropped more than I thought it had, very impressed.

I am not a fan of cropping but do think Dobes look better cropped!!! I have a Dobe but her ears were done prior to me adopting her from the pound and I have to admit I wasn' upset when I saw them.... As for docking, I am thankful my Dobe doesn't have a tail... She would be clearing the coffee table daily!

http://www.dobermanrescuebc.com/dobebut.gif

I said it before and I'll say it again- Aren't dog shows a showcase of genetics? Ear cropping is not about genetics at all, it's about who has the best doggy cosmetic surgeon.

I don't mind the tails done, however, I could never bring myself to do it. I prefer natural ears (and tail).

I agree, how can one determine best of breed when they have been altered.

I said it before and I'll say it again- Aren't dog shows a showcase of genetics? Ear cropping is not about genetics at all, it's about who has the best doggy cosmetic surgeon.

Absolutely true! Sadly the Dobe, boxer, dane etc were never bred for a good 'natural ear' but I know many MinPin breeders are now breeding for a better natural ear, my one MinPin Chopper looks like his ears are done (people ask me all the time) but they are 100% natural, this obviously would be preferred to cropping....

Here's photo of Chop:

http://www.minpinandshibarescuebc.com/chopper.jpg

do. So you crop and then the dog spends a month healing, only to have them fall down eventually. I have never seen an elderly dobie with its ears still up.

First of all, the dog doesn't spend a month healing. An incision is healed within a week to ten days just like a cut on your own finger.

And then, I don't know where on earth you're seeing elderly Dobermans but if they were cropped properly and then given appropriate aftercare and posting, the ears are up for good when the dog is alert and chooses to use them. Maybe you're confused about cropped ears -- dogs don't keep them up every second of the day. They raise them when they are alert or interested in something, and the rest of the time the ears lie down. Senior Dobermans certainly don't lose the ability to put their ears up if they had the ability in the first place.

If I could figure out to insert a pic, I'd gladly put one in of one of my two senior Dobes, both with cropped and standing ears. One is nearly 12, the other is 10 1/2. I'm going to try to attach a file, hope it works. This is the one that is nearly 12.

Well, jump me if you want, but I prefer au naturelle. I am intensely against anything that causes pain to a dog, simple for esthetics. If it's meant to be there, leave it alone, tail or ears, straight or floppy. I hate it when humans impose their preferances for certain looks on an animal, any animal, dobbie or boxer etc. If there's a health reason, it's a different story, but when it's just for looks, then I'm against it.

Prin, I completely agree, and I always wondered about that with dobies at the shows. Why do the ears have to be cropped to look good against genetics :mad:

Me too,its cruel IMO.
Well, jump me if you want, but I prefer au naturelle. I am intensely against anything that causes pain to a dog, simple for esthetics. If it's meant to be there, leave it alone, tail or ears, straight or floppy.

Well, jump me if you want, but I prefer au naturelle.

I could care less what your preference is. Feel free to prefer whatever you want.

However, I do care about you passing along incorrect information. Saying that cropping takes a month to heal and that the ears eventually fall is just false information.

Cropping is mutilation.As far as breeds that are cropped not being bred for ear carriage that's true only in countries that still allow this barbaric practice.We brought our dobie with us when we moved from England,he had beautiful soft natural ears.If kennel clubs stop allowing cropped ears to be shown more breeders will be breeding for ear structure which is genetic not surgically altered.As far as it beig like a cut that heals in a week,I have never seen a cropped dog completely healed in a week,imagine if you cut OFF half your ear,not nicked your finger.The sooner this disgusting cruelty is banned here the better.

As for docking, I am thankful my Dobe doesn't have a tail... She would be clearing the coffee table daily!
Ahh, but having your tables cleared within 5 minutes of putting something on them is part of the excitement! At least that's what I experience with a dog whose tail is made for a dog three times her size!

I could care less what your preference is. Feel free to prefer whatever you want.

However, I do care about you passing along incorrect information. Saying that cropping takes a month to heal and that the ears eventually fall is just false information.

Excuse me, since you quoted me in your post # 18, I did not pass on incorrect information, nor did I comment on the healing time, and the ears eventually falling as I've never had that experience or a Dobbie. All I stated was my preference, which I'm entitled to, as are you.

Before you are so rude to ANYONE, you should make sure YOU have all your facts straight.

Well, jump me if you want, but I prefer au naturelle. I am intensely against anything that causes pain to a dog, simple for esthetics. If it's meant to be there, leave it alone, tail or ears, straight or floppy. I hate it when humans impose their preferances for certain looks on an animal, any animal, dobbie or boxer etc. If there's a health reason, it's a different story, but when it's just for looks, then I'm against it.

Prin, I completely agree, and I always wondered about that with dobies at the shows. Why do the ears have to be cropped to look good against genetics :mad:

I totally agree with you :D

I wonder what Heir Doberman would say to all of you who appose what HE created and made?! He made the doberman and he wanted the ears cropped, it was his standard that was accepted by the registry....

I feel it should be an option available to people and should ONLY be performed by a qualified vet if need be. I personally wouldn't choose to do it but I do apprecaite having the choice.

I'd never do it- but if I adopt a Dane from the shelter and it's ears are cropped, fine. I don't mind the look- but it is almost animal cruelty to me.

And I agree about the dog shows.

Excuse me, since you quoted me in your post # 18, I did not pass on incorrect information, nor did I comment on the healing time, and the ears eventually falling as I've never had that experience or a Dobbie. All I stated was my preference, which I'm entitled to, as are you.

Before you are so rude to ANYONE, you should make sure YOU have all your facts straight.

You're right, it wasn't you that said that. It was Prin that passed along the false information.

Of course you're entitled to your preference. I was not trying to change that. However, it should be based on factual information unlike the info that Prin posted.

As far as it beig like a cut that heals in a week,I have never seen a cropped dog completely healed in a week,imagine if you cut OFF half your ear,not nicked your finger.

I'm not comparing it to a "nick" in your finger. If you cut your finger and required stitches, it wouldn't be different from a cropping incision.

I've owned Dobermans for 24 years, I've bred 7 litters - all puppies were cropped. Obviously, I've experienced much cropping aftercare. The stitches are removed in a week, and that is when the incision is healed. They don't take stitches out of incisions that aren't healed!

Hmm. A real breeder on here?

I don't mind if you crop the ears, but I hope it's done under anesthesia.

Dobes look like hounds rather than the regalness they are meant to have when uncropped. I think they look funny..

But on other breeds especially danes, I prefer uncropped.. Especially since a lot of dane crops look bad, but it's a harder crop to do I've been told.

You're right, it wasn't you that said that. It was Prin that passed along the false information.

Of course you're entitled to your preference. I was not trying to change that. However, it should be based on factual information unlike the info that Prin posted.

Ummm appology (I think) accepted..

But you're wrong again:
However, it should be based on factual information unlike the info that Prin posted

You are assuming I based my preferance on what Prin posted. That is NOT true. It's a preference based solely on what I have observed, and how I feel about putting an animal through pain only because you want to change the way it looks. Seems totally selfish on a humans part, always felt that way, but that's just me. I've always felt that way, always will.

Mary, it's nice to see you here!! Thanks for all you do to help the doggies!!

I love Dobies, and I must admit a nicely cropped one is a beautiful sight.

I would never crop the ears of my pit bull, as I feel it's done for the wrong reasons with this breed and to me is not esthetically pleasing. I like my dog's soft little flappers!:p

Now whats wrong with this Dobe!!?? I think she is gorgeous, just the way she is!! The ear cropping makes them look so unnatural :sad:

This Dobe is a beauty,and I don't think anyone here can deny that!

That's a very nice looking Dobie.

happycats, he is beautiful!

MaryAndDobes, I believe in giving Kudo's when they are due. I want to congratulate you on having one of the Breeders Best websites I've ever seen. Very informative. I loved the "have you ever seen a Dobie Smile" pic. Also congrats for all the work with Rescue and all you've put into learning about the breed.

While I may like the look of a dobbie with ears cropped, I still have to say I wouldn't impose my personal preferance regarding "looks" of a doggy if it meant surgery. I'm wondering if wanting that "regal" look, is just something we've been conditioned to want with dobbies, even if that means surgery? I'll go so far as to say they are much more "regal" looking with the cropping, but I can definately say I wouldn't do it, just to fill my personal preferance. I hope you understand what I mean. I think we can agree to disagree on that.

You certainly seem like a reputable, responsible breeder or "hobby" breeder (as you put it) from your website. There is more info regarding your dogs health from generations back, test results, accomplishments etc. I was very impressed with how much work you've put into breeding Dobes and getting all the proper tests done. If I may, I'd like to ask one question however. I noticed you had 2 litters from different dams within I think it was 7 months. Just wondering how you were able to afford all the pups the time necessary to ensure the qualities in your bobes?

Again, thank you for a wonderful site, congratulations on all your dogs accomplishments, thank you for the Rescue Work you do :) We may meet up at a show sometime, maybe we already have at the Woodstock Show as I did watch the GSD's and Dobes Conformatiion Rings.

Oh so a month is an exaggeration to you, but a dog living in pain for 10 days is ok? The ones I have seen took WELL over 3 weeks for the incisions to close up properly. So I'm not making it up.

And what about the ones you have to do more than once? How many weeks are they in pain?

And just so you know, you will definitely not get your point across here by being incredibly rude.

You may have cropped all your dogs, but you've never been cropped yourself, you you can't even begin to know what it's like.

Oh so a month is an exaggeration to you, but a dog living in pain for 10 days is ok?

I didn't say it was ok. I am just disagreeing that it takes a month for an incision to heal. You are exaggerating to make your point, and it doesn't fly with me.

And what about the ones you have to do more than once? How many weeks are they in pain?

I've never had one done more than once since I go to a very skilled cropping vet.

And just so you know, you will definitely not get your point across here by being incredibly rude.

I don't feel that I was rude, or incredibly rude. I just disagree with you. I felt that you sensationalized the issue to make your point.


You may have cropped all your dogs, but you've never been cropped yourself, you you can't even begin to know what it's like.

Oh, I see. Then you've had *your* ears cropped then, have you?
:)

Oh, I see. Then you've had *your* ears cropped then, have you?

See, that's sarcastic and rude. I complimented you in the previous post and asked a question nicely, but you chose to ignore that and answer the next post in that manner.

Mary, we're all trying to be nice here, sarcasm and rudeness doesn't make it easy. BTW, I've had my ears pierced and it hurt, albeit for a second, and not under anesthetic, but it still hurt. I've also required stitches in my lifetime, and usually the pain of the site continued for several days, even after stitches.

If I may, I'd like to ask one question however. I noticed you had 2 litters from different dams within I think it was 7 months. Just wondering how you were able to afford all the pups the time necessary to ensure the qualities in your bobes?

....We may meet up at a show sometime, maybe we already have at the Woodstock Show as I did watch the GSD's and Dobes Conformatiion Rings.

I had 2 litters in 2002, one in June and one in September. You may have noticed that there were only 2 puppies in each litter.

In 2004, I also had 2 litters - one in April and one in September. You may have noticed that the April litter was a singleton and there were once again only 2 puppies in the September litter.

So, when you ask about time for "all" the puppies, we aren't talking about very many puppies at all. If I hadn't had such bad luck with the spring litters numbers-wise, I wouldn't have had the litters in the fall. That said, I only work part-time outside of the home, usually only one day a week. My job is very flexible - my boss has been my best friend since grade 7 so when I have puppies, they get told not to expect to see me for a while. :)

If you were at the Woodstock shows on Monday and Tuesday, I was ring stewarding - my judge did the herding group on Monday and the working group on Tuesday.

Oh, I see. Then you've had *your* ears cropped then, have you? :)
Actually I had my ears pinned when I was 8, and that is a firey flaming pain that I will never forget. And anatomically, they cut me at very nearly the same place as where a dog would be cut.

Ears are such an incredibly sensitive part of the body.

See, that's sarcastic and rude. I complimented you in the previous post and asked a question nicely, but you chose to ignore that and answer the next post in that manner.

Perhaps you missed the smiley face?

I hope you will also note that while you slammed me for not answering you, I was, in fact, composing an answer.

I've also required stitches in my lifetime, and usually the pain of the site continued for several days, even after stitches.

Having witnessed the response of the puppies after surgery and their behaviour, I truly believe that their discomfort is minimal *if* the procedure is done appropriately and they receive the proper aftercare. I would never say there is no pain - I'm sure there is some. However, the puppies are very unconcerned. They play like they usually do. If they bump their heads, yes, they may whimper but then they just go on. They aren't sitting around feeling sorry for themselves.

I had a dog with HORRIBLE arthritis. She didn't tell us at all. We only found out when she stopped "going" and they did an x-ray to see if there was a blockage. Dogs don't complain even when they have it horrible. I don't think that's a good measure of how much pain they are in.

Dogs don't complain even when they have it horrible. I don't think that's a good measure of how much pain they are in.

Certainly some dogs are very stoic. Puppies don't tend to be that way. If something bothers them they tend to let you know. Loudly!

I'm just wondering, you say you've had all your pups done, but what if someone wants a pup from you and doesn't want it cropped?

I hope you will also note that while you slammed me for not answering you, I was, in fact, composing an answer.

I was not "slaming" you for not answering me, I don't think I "slamed" you at all, but only pointed out that you were again taking the time to be rude to another poster. See, I posted my question and complemented your site at 10:09pm. You took the time to slam and be rude and sarcarstic another poster at 10:31pm with this
Oh, I see. Then you've had *your* ears cropped then,have you? and

I felt that you sensationalized the issue to make your point.

You answered my question much later at 10:57pm,, nearly 1 hour later.

Not to say you had to answer my question earlier, only pointing out that it was apparently more important to you to be rude again before answering questions and providing information. That says alot.

Prin, I'm sure she'll answer your question, but on her website she states the following: (In defence, she does say aftercare info is provided to the new owner.)

"Tails are normally docked and dew claws removed around the age of 2-4 days. Cropping is usually done between 7-10 weeks of age.
Usually, breeders in North America who do NOT crop, are cutting corners
to save on out-of-pocket expense on the litter.

Reputable breeders usually ensure that the ears are cropped before the
puppies go to their new home for several reasons :
- historically, the Doberman is a cropped breed and the breeder wishes to retain the traditional look" ETC.

Anyway, good luck with your business and doggies MomAndDobes,

Stick a fork in me, I'm done!

Ladies, if we cannot remain civil then this thread will be closed.

I didn't respond to the poll but I thought that I would post my answer instead. I have mixed feelings about cropping. Some people do have a preference for one look over another, including judges. I know that most breeds (if not all) are now allowed to be shown with natural ears, but there are judges that still prefer the cropped look over the natural and will choose those dogs as the winner in the ring, even though one with natural ears is perfect.

I personally like the look of the cropped ear on a Dobie. I prefer it to the natural ear. I don't think that I personally would have a puppy cropped though. In order for it to be done properly, the vet must be very skilled in this type of surgery and the after care is extremely crucial. The ears must be taped properly in order to stand correctly. This I know can take quite a while.

This is a hot topic and as long as the thread stays civil, it will stay open.

We are TRULY appreciating the fact so far hot topics have remained civil.

Thanks everyone,

Marko

I would also like to know the answer to this question.


I'm just wondering, you say you've had all your pups done, but what if someone wants a pup from you and doesn't want it cropped?

My thoughts on this is 50-50

I do love the ears cropped on Dobes and Danes.But I also love the natural look.

Believe it or not,there are 2 different crops.One is a "pet" crop,and the other a "show" crop.The length and cut is different.And to be honest,only an experienced vet who knows everything there is to know about these breeds does the "show" cut and knows what it looks like.These are usually the ones who do cropping for the breeders.

Here is a pic of a "pet" crop.

And here is a "show" crop.

And here is a very sad crop...This is something they call a "Pit" cut...Thank god I have never seen this..... :mad:

I'm just wondering, you say you've had all your pups done, but what if someone wants a pup from you and doesn't want it cropped?

They'll have to look elsewhere. I don't sell puppies uncropped.

I will agree with anyone that says it is a cosmetic procedure and we do it for looks, history and tradition.

I feel that my puppies represent my breeding program and my views, and one of my views is that the Doberman is a cropped breed.

I have had a few enquiries for uncropped puppies. Some of those enquirers were just looking to save some money on a puppy and thought that getting it uncropped (and/or unregistered) would serve their purpose. Those people are sent on their way ...

Not to say you had to answer my question earlier, only pointing out that it was apparently more important to you to be rude again before answering questions and providing information.

Shannon, I am not rude. I don't see what difference it makes in what order I respond to posts. I answered the other post first - my post went through at 10:31 to Prin and then I sat to answer your post and my answer post to yours went through at 10:57. In that 26 minutes you called me to task for not answering you while in fact I was writing the post to answer you (*and* doing some other things within the home). I don't think it says anything about me at all other than I chose to answer the most recent comment first and then moved on to yours.

Whatever ... I do appreciate the comments you made about my website. I have put a lot of work into it. And now, I must update the Dobe rescue situation in this province ...

Oh ... but before I go ... I think that we have much bigger fish to fry when it comes to cruelty to dogs than cropping which is perfectly legal in this country. I'd rather spend my time addressing the issue of starvation/abuse/neglect, etc of dogs than waste time pointing the finger at people who crop their dogs in a legal, careful and diligent manner.

Mary, could you provide a link to your website? I've been trying to find it but have been unable to. I would love to see your Dobes! They are one of my favourite breeds! Thanks.

One more thing ...

there are judges that still prefer the cropped look over the natural and will choose those dogs as the winner in the ring, even though one with natural ears is perfect.


Well, first of all, there are no perfect dogs in the ring!

It has been my experience in my breed, in general, that the ones with uncropped ears usually have much bigger problems than their ears ... and *that's* why they don't win. It's easy to point the finger and say it's politics or it's the fact that the dog is uncropped, but often that is an unrealistic stance and someone is not being appropriately critical of their own dog's actual conformation.

Mary, could you provide a link to your website?

Sure. It's http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar

I'm just going to update the rescue page now - Roxy has found a home! She is a young, special needs girl. We really worry that they will not be adopted so I'm overjoyed that there was an extraordinary home out there for her.

Well, first of all, there are no perfect dogs in the ring!

It has been my experience in my breed, in general, that the ones with uncropped ears usually have much bigger problems than their ears ... and *that's* why they don't win. It's easy to point the finger and say it's politics or it's the fact that the dog is uncropped, but often that is an unrealistic stance and someone is not being appropriately critical of their own dog's actual conformation.

Yes, I know that there is no "perfect" dog. What I meant is that there is still a preference for cropped ears in the show ring in many cases. This has been changing, but it is still there.

Thanks for the link!

I would have to say that the show ring is highly political. Besides that there are quite a few judges that have the same view as you and will pick a cropped over natural even if the natural eared dog was a better representation of the breed. I prefer the natural ear but out of the 3 pics that were posted showing the different crops, I think the last 2 looked awful. Many places have already banned cropping/ docking and soon all of Canada will be included.

Well here is a BEAUTIFUL uncropped Dane.... :thumbs up

Personally, I don't think cropping or docking is cruel in and of itself. Some twit sitting in his kitchen with a pair of scissors and a puppy, yes, that is cruel, and he needs a fork in the eye. But if we're talking about a procedure where it is done by a vet (or trained professional, or whoever it is that is SUPPOSED to do it), with the proper anesthectic and such, then I don't think it is cruel. I do think it is purely for the look (I've heard of happy-tail, and I don't think you need to cut off the tail to prevent it. I have no doubt it can happen, but I don't think it is so common you need to remove the tail). I think if you're showing your dog, you need to do whatever it is that is required for the standard. If your dog is a housepet who won't step foot in the ring, I think it is unneccessary. I think it is just like doggy-plastic surgery. But then, I don't like girls with nose-rings or pierced lips, either (nothing against them personally, I mean the look).

I have always felt that way, but I've become stronger in my opinion since getting a dog that is suspected to be a pit. If you put two pits side by side with identical markings, the natural eared pit is usually viewed as being friendlier, and certainly looks a lot less scary. That, and if Daisy had her ears cropped, I'm sure we would have a heck of a lot less people wanting to pet her. We're constantly told she doesn't look like a pit, until we pull her ears back. Also, one of my favourite things is watching her wag her tail (especially when she is REALLY happy and it does the helicopter!)

Oh, I also wanted to comment on the politics of the ring. You're going to get that in anything that involves judging. After watching my sister figure skating, precision skate, and following bodybuilding, you will always run into politics. That's the nature of the beast with a subjective determination.

That's a very nice looking dane. How old there?

why would anyone want to cut those beautiful ears? Thanks for that pic Mona_b, that's a truly gorgeous dane.

Ironically at puppy school last night, a woman came up to me and said "oh look! a cropped boxer!" to my little basenji-mix pup... she looked a bit shocked when I told her his ears are natural.

If I recall,she is 9 months old.

there are quite a few judges that have the same view as you and will pick a cropped over natural even if the natural eared dog was a better representation of the breed.

Now, now, don't be putting words into my mouth. Where did I say I'd choose a cropped dog over a natural one when it comes to showing? May the best dog win!

I just commented that in my breed, the uncropped ones have tended to have much bigger problems than their ears ...

The puppies I produce, the dogs that I own - they are cropped, yes. I am looking at possibly breeding to an uncropped dog in the US. I *can* see past ears, you know! :)

Another comment - on the whole, in general, as a rescue person I can say that we have a bit of a harder time placing the uncropped dogs. And if it has a natural tail? It's one uphill battle ... I'm not saying it's impossible. But if they are uncropped or, God forbid, undocked it will take a little longer to find them their forever home. On the whole, people recognize the Doberman as a cropped dog and it is still the bigger preference. Now, when it comes to a rescue dog, I don't personally think cropping should make a whit of difference. It's a deserving dog that needs a forever home, period.

Another comment - on the whole, in general, as a rescue person I can say that we have a bit of a harder time placing the uncropped dogs. And if it has a natural tail? It's one uphill battle ... I'm not saying it's impossible. But if they are uncropped or, God forbid, undocked it will take a little longer to find them their forever home. On the whole, people recognize the Doberman as a cropped dog and it is still the bigger preference. Now, when it comes to a rescue dog, I don't personally think cropping should make a whit of difference. It's a deserving dog that needs a forever home, period.

If I were to adopt a Doberman, I wouldn't really care if it was uncropped or undocked. It is a shame how some people can't look past that and accept the dog natural and give it a second chance with a loving family. It is true that some people think that the ideal Doberman must be cropped and docked. A real shame when these rescues need a home!

Like I said before, I prefer the cropped ear look, but I would never pass up one because it was uncropped or undocked. If I were able to have a Dobe in my life, it wouldn't matter if it was show or pet quality, cropped or uncropped, docked or undocked. It would be a member of my family and would be loved as if it was the best in the world, he/she would be flawless in my eyes!

Your very welcome jessi.... :)


I just commented that in my breed, the uncropped ones have tended to have much bigger problems than their ears ...

Just a bit curious as to what you mean by this.

If you are refuring to health problems,I really don't think so.

An uncropped Dobe,Dane,Boxer or whatever will not have any different health or genetic issues than those which are cropped.


If this is not what you were refuring to,then I'm sorry.

It's really sad that you won't let a single puppy go uncropped. Why should a dog undergo such mutilation when he's going to spend his life as a pet? Traditions are one thing, but something so painful as this should be let go if the prospective owners don't want it. Traditions change all the time. The pool of knowledge changes all the time. So many old practices and traditions involving dogs are brutal and abusive. I think it's time we move on from them, into a new era of kindness and appreciation for the dogs as they are.

If I ever do get a dobie again, I will never get one that will be cropped. Good genetics or not, the cropped ears are not natural. And entirely unncessary. Do you think the dog looks in the mirror after the surgery and says, "ahh, much better!"? Even if I did like the cropped better, I couldn't fathom being responsible for such mutilation of a dog.

Oh, and Mona, there is a new dobie at our park who had the pitty crop and it was done so badly that one ear faces backward. Her ears are the reason she was abandoned. :sad:

They'll have to look elsewhere. I don't sell puppies uncropped.

I feel that my puppies represent my breeding program and my views, and one of my views is that the Doberman is a cropped breed.


You said that you prefer cropped, as you stated here. I said many judges have the same view as you.

I am looking at possibly breeding to an uncropped dog in the US I *can* see past ears, you know

On your website your health report states out of 22 puppies, 14 are carriers, 4 affected, 1 clear, 3 untested, of vWD :eek: That's 18 possibly 21 out of 22 with the vWD Gene.

I'm sure you as a reputable breeder are aware of :

http://www.vetgen.com/vwdrpt.html

wherein it states the prescribed breeding regulations when dealing with these genes as they are/can be deadly and how breeding is discouraged by the various University's and Vets?

I've also noticed unfortunately you lost 2 dogs at around 4 years of age due to cancers. That is soooo young. I send you my condolences, it must have been difficult.

Considering all the above, and not even mentioning the thyroid problems you've encountered, and 2 c-sections why do you want to continue breeding dobes as opposed to sticking with Rescue. So many Dobes need good homes, just wondering. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm just learning about the Doberman breed, but very interested, as I said before, I watch the Dob Conformation Rings at the shows.

It's really sad that you won't let a single puppy go uncropped. Why should a dog undergo such mutilation when he's going to spend his life as a pet? Traditions are one thing, but something so painful as this should be let go if the prospective owners don't want it. Traditions change all the time. The pool of knowledge changes all the time. So many old practices and traditions involving dogs are brutal and abusive. I think it's time we move on from them, into a new era of kindness and appreciation for the dogs as they are.

If I ever do get a dobie again, I will never get one that will be cropped. Good genetics or not, the cropped ears are not natural. And entirely unncessary. Do you think the dog looks in the mirror after the surgery and says, "ahh, much better!"? Even if I did like the cropped better, I couldn't fathom being responsible for such mutilation of a dog.

Oh, and Mona, there is a new dobie at our park who had the pitty crop and it was done so badly that one ear faces backward. Her ears are the reason she was abandoned. :sad:

I especially agree with the part about changing traditions, and think it's up to the reputable and respectable breeders to work with the AKC and CKC to have any cruel traditions changed and create new standards for the breed!

think it's up to the reputable and respectable breeders to work with the AKC and CKC to have any cruel traditions changed and create new standards for the breed!

The Canadian Doberman standard recognizes and describes the uncropped ear, so there is no need to change it in that regard.

THey might describe it, but if they made it the only norm for the breed, that would be better in our eyes.

If you are refuring to health problems,I really don't think so.

An uncropped Dobe,Dane,Boxer or whatever will not have any different health or genetic issues than those which are cropped.


If this is not what you were refuring to,then I'm sorry.

We were talking about showing and conformation, not health. I'm saying that the uncropped Dobermans that we have usually seen in the ring were not competitive for reasons beyond their uncropped ears. The uncropped ears in this country don't matter in the show ring as our standard does describe an uncropped ear.

However, that said, an uncropped Doberman *might* have different health or genetic issues because often the uncropped ones are from bybs that didn't crop in order to cut expenses. Health testing for genetic issues would also cut into their profit margins and is simply not done. So, in many cases, the uncropped Dobermans which are usually coming from bybs were not from health tested parents and not from known pedigrees that were carefully and thoroughly researched for health/genetic problems.

On your website your health report states out of 22 puppies, 14 are carriers, 4 affected, 1 clear, 3 untested, of vWD :eek: That's 18 possibly 21 out of 22 with the vWD Gene.

I'm sure you as a reputable breeder are aware of :

http://www.vetgen.com/vwdrpt.html


How would I know the status of those dogs if I weren't aware of VetGen testing? :)

wherein it states the prescribed breeding regulations when dealing with these genes as they are/can be deadly and how breeding is discouraged by the various University's and Vets?.

The VetGen vWD DNA test for Dobermans is about 10 years old now. When the test was first put on the market, about 85% of the Doberman gene pool were carriers and affected. Much too many to throw away without decimating the breed, especially considering that we have worse health problems than vWD (dilated cardiomyopathy is thought to affect upwards of 50% of the breed, for eg and is always fatal, unlike vWD).

VetGen has always been quite clear that affecteds and carriers should be used carefully in breeding programs, at least until such a time as the percentage of clears is greatly increased.

A carrier is at no risk of the disease at all.

"Affected" quite simply is a poor term in this case because Dobermans that are genetically affected (having 2 genes for the disease) most often have no clinical problem at all. They are *at risk* of a problem and should be dealt with accordingly, but most will never experience a bleeding problem. Again, I'm talking Dobermans. There are other breeds where "affected" means affected, and they have a problem.

I've also noticed unfortunately you lost 2 dogs at around 4 years of age due to cancers. That is soooo young. I send you my condolences, it must have been difficult.

The one at 4 was due to a cancer, yes. The other at 4 was due to aspergillosis, a fungal infection. But yes, it was hard. It's hard at any age. In Dobermans, we are most affected by the 3 C's - cardiomyopathy, cancer and CVI.


Considering all the above, and not even mentioning the thyroid problems you've encountered, and 2 c-sections why do you want to continue breeding dobes as opposed to sticking with Rescue. So many Dobes need good homes, just wondering.

I'm just going to point out that the c-sections were done because in each case it was a singleton puppy, and often labour won't start on its own in that scenario (not enough hormones, not enough pressure on the uterus). I could have waited to see if she went into labour on her own but why take the chance?

Yes, I've encountered problems. As you've seen, I'm very honest about what I find and then I try to deal with it. Dealing with these problems won't be done overnight - it's a journey. I don't breed all that often really so it may seem that my progress is slow.

As you know, I'm active in rescue and see no reason not to do both. It was my initial goal to help as many rescue Dobermans as puppies that I bring into the world. However, I surpassed that goal a long time ago and see no reason to stop.

I think that any concientious breeder that does as much testing and research as I do should be encouraged to continue. It's sure not going to help the breed to leave it in the hands of the bybs who we clean up after in the rescue capacity.

Couldn't it be true that many of these breeders that do not crop ears just think as many of us do, that they are better off not having it done and not actually to save money and cut corners as you say. As someone else had posted, put more effort into their lines, nice looking natural ears. Those puppies won't be living with you. Wouldn't going into a great home be more important than passing them over simply because they want a puppy w/ natural ears.

I voted "No" in the poll simply because the question was posed as to whether or not "I" would crop a dog's ears. I don't show dogs so I personally would never find the need for cropping. That said - I think certain breeds such as the hotly discussed doberman look incredible with the cropped ears. Cosmetic or not -- if done properly by a good vet.. I hardly consider the practice cruel.

The only sticking point for me is, indeed, nature vs. alteration when it comes to standards. I also don't think women with breast enlargements, tummy tucks, nose jobs, face lifts, tattooed-on eyebrows, false teeth, and hair implants should compete in beauty contests..... But let's face it -- the standard is there.

So that's my two cents. But I really posted because I wanted to say hello to Maryanddobes. Hello. And also tell you that I enjoyed visiting your website -- your dogs are beautiful... I'd also like to shake your hand. You have handled yourself quite wonderfully here in this bulletin board thread. Nice to meet you. :)

The website I refered you to is copyrighted from 1997-2004. You have said you have 20 some years of experience , then say you weren't aware of VetGen testing? The DNA test is not 10 years old. From the website:

The Doberman breeder and owner should view vWD as a significant health risk, and a fault, and strive to get rid of the mutated gene. The discovery of the mutation, and the recent development of a DNA test, now provides just that opportunity.
Funded by:
The Doberman Pinscher Foundation of America, Inc., The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, the Morris Animal Foundation, and the American Kennel Club.

Carriers of the mutant vWD gene are at no risk of bleeding from vWD, but of course, will transmit the mutant gene to their offspring 50% of the time. Roughly, the ranges of vWf factor levels are 5 to 20% for affected, 30-100% for carriers, and 50-130% for homozygous normal. Note the major overlap between carriers and normals for vWf levels. This overlap accounts for the extreme unreliability of the vWf assay in trying to identify Doberman carriers of vWD.

The new DNA test for Doberman vWD is offered by VetGen LLC (3728 Plaza Drive, Suite 1, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48108; (734) 669-8440, (800) 4-VETGEN; Fax (734) 669-8441). It is very easy to do the test. You can order the test kit from VetGen by phone or letter.

Maybe you haven't read that website yet, it might help you decide if you should continue breeding. It's really scary.

Couldn't it be true that many of these breeders that do not crop ears just think as many of us do, that they are better off not having it done and not actually to save money and cut corners as you say.

I've mentioned several times that I'm active in Doberman rescue. I see the many uncropped Dobermans we get. I see their very poor conformation. In some cases, I do know where they came from and I *know* they are from bybs that put absolutely no thought and no money into what they are doing. If they don't care to take back the dogs they produced, if they don't care who they sold them to, if they don't care they are in rescues and shelters -- do you really think they chose not to crop ears because they cared about what the puppies go through then? They didn't! In most cases, those puppies were out the door long before they were of appropriate cropping age and long before they started costing them any additional money.


Those puppies won't be living with you. Wouldn't going into a great home be more important than passing them over simply because they want a puppy w/ natural ears.

It doesn't matter where they are living - they are still representing me and my breeding program. As a breeder that will always take back any puppy of my breeding if necessary in the future, they may very well be living with me again someday. I don't breed so many litters that finding wonderful homes is a problem.

The website I refered you to is copyrighted from 1997-2004. You have said you have 20 some years of experience , then say you weren't aware of VetGen testing?

Shannon, please read my replies more carefully.

I said: How would I know the status of those dogs if I weren't aware of VetGen testing? :)

Meaning that my dogs are VetGen tested so clearly I'm aware of VetGen testing.

The DNA test is not 10 years old. .

The first VetGen vWD DNA test that I ran on one of my dogs was in 1997, and it wasn't that long after the test was first developed and put on the market. So yes, the test has been around for nearly 10 years or "about 10 years" as I stated. Maybe it's really 8 years, what difference does it make? I've been using the test since it first came on the market. The status of my dogs is listed on my website - I wouldn't know the status of my dogs if I weren't using the test!

FWIW, several of my dogs are also part of the vWD study at the U of Guelph.

I noticed that a lot of your dogs had thyroid issues too. Then I found this on the internet:
To reduce the incidence of the disease in our breed, all breeding stock should be tested every couple of years and only thyroid normal dogs should be bred wherever possible. Pets don't need to be tested unless they exhibit some symptoms.

And this is what I found from a study on the increase of genetic disorder frequency in Dobermans:

The vWD gene frequency in the American Doberman population is very high: approximately 30% are homozygote affected, 50% are carriers (heterozygote vWD, leaving only 20% of dogs completely clear in phenotype and homozygote free of vWD genes in genotype (Kurz 2004).
But ideally, if you're testing them and then breeding them, you should never get an affected one. Right? Because you would never breed two carriers together, nor a carrier with an affected. Also, the affected ones only produce 5-10% of the normal protein, by accident, and that percentage can be greatly affected by factors such as hypothyroidism and stress. So the combination of hypothyroidism with vWD is condusive to the bleeding.

And this:
That is, a carrier although outwardly a healthy Doberman is not vigorous, in the sense that it does not have the same reserves as a normal dog to withstand environmental stress. If a vWD carrier becomes hypothyroid, it may be subject to bleeding episodes unless placed on thyroid supplement.

I've mentioned several times that I'm active in Doberman rescue. I see the many uncropped Dobermans we get. I see their very poor conformation. In some cases, I do know where they came from and I *know* they are from bybs that put absolutely no thought and no money into what they are doing. If they don't care to take back the dogs they produced, if they don't care who they sold them to, if they don't care they are in rescues and shelters -- do you really think they chose not to crop ears because they cared about what the puppies go through then?
The thing is, the small sample population you get in rescue might be from BYB's but there also might be breeders who don't crop, who also expect their dogs back if there is trouble, just like you would expect yours back. In those cases, rescues would never see them.

You may be getting several puppies into rescue from byb's. Maybe you only see the ones from there, it still doesn't mean that there are not rep breeders out there that are choosing not to crop. Maybe the dogs from these breeders are not winding up in rescue. When I got my dane from a Registered breeder, I had the option of whether I wanted the ears done or not. If I wanted it done then they would have been done. Just because I had that option doesn't mean he wasn't from a good breeder. I think his ears are perfect. See Great Dane thread.

I really hate to repeat myself so I am going to lock this now, before it deteriorates any further.